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What are you implying Bioware? (Synthesize this!)


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#201
Cobra's_back

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CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Yes because changing everyone's dna against their will, forcing everyone to be the same and enslaving a whole race is such a good concept. >.>


Plus you are agreeging to the Reapers solution to beleiving you can control teh Reapers. Just plain stupid.


I'm telling you, the metaphorical explanation is the way to go.  You aren't literally synthesizing different races.   You're bringing everyone together in a universe of unconditional love and understanding.

So what you are saying is that the only way peopel can get along is if we all had the same dna? That destorys one of the key themes of ME series... Unity with the races of the galaxy....


No, what I'm saying is, I believe BioWare tried to make the ending into a metaphorical concept/life lesson/after-school special, and did a particularly ineffective job of it.


I wouldn't let me kids watch it. I want my kids to understand and respect diversity. We are all different that is a good thing not a bad thing.

#202
Siansonea

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It's pretty clear that no one's minding the store—or rather, the story. This is what happens when people think that they're smarter than they actually are. They write things with obvious plot holes, obviously problematic moral and ethical implications, and they don't realize it. Their egos are so inflated, and they're so high on industry recognition and financial success that they don't even question their own logic. What's the solution? Buy something made by someone else, I suppose.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 26 avril 2012 - 08:04 .


#203
deakka562

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Honestly, it feels like the ending is trying to throw a lot of high school philosophy at you (poorly). It rehashes 2 themes that you already explored to conclusion in the game trilogy, those being control of the reapers and the conflict between synthetics and organics.

Also yeah, synthesis is pretty much the worst ending you could possibly think of. On the outside, it looks like a perfect solution. Dig a bit past the skin and you'll see that you've essentially changed the entire galaxy against its will (which is what the reapers were trying to do anyway).

#204
MzAdventure

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devSin wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Mr. Gamble seems to find it a confusing concept that we already considered synthetics as equally valid forms of life. The organic and synthetic lifeform dichotomy is entirely fabricated, and the solution proposed is atrociously immoral. Why must organics and synthetics be merged into one? They're already life, and they each have a place in the cosmos. Synthesis takes away their future and everything they could become through the natural progession of a sentient culture.

This is the most galling part of it.

ME2 and most of ME3 have already done a fine job of getting me to care about EDI and the geth and to see them as sentient beings. The game has already shown me that they are alive, and that they are deserving of that distinction. But now it tries to tell me that the only way we can all get along is if we're all fundamentally the same?

That's abhorrent. And the game even tries to use the perception of "synthetic" life that it successfully advocated for the majority of the past 100 hours to force me into choosing their disgusting synthesis (by saying the geth have to die).

Guess what? If that gives me pause, then I ALREADY ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE GETH ARE LIFE AND WORTHY OF LIVING.


+1

#205
SolidisusSnake1

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I'm glad I'm not the only one that face palmed at his comment. This makes me very scared for the EC as it shows BioWare truly believes in their nonsensical endings even going so far as to state that Geth v. All Organics was a central theme to ME.

#206
Taboo

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nitefyre410 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Bioware loses the ability to use the Lovecraftian lore technique when they introduced the Star Child. The Reapers are puppets of a VI/AI that projects in the form of a child.

The Reapers are no longer the mighty Cthulhu, something beyond our comprehension. They are at face value the tools of a machine that presents no evidence to substantiate it's claims.

 

LOL... the lost that when we blow Sovereign to dust at the end of ME 1... last I checked you don't kill a Lovecraftian Horror...EVER.


I said lore. LORE. Cthulhu was wounded in The Call of Cthulhu remember?

The Reapers have been neutered by something Kubrick did in 1968.

Does my education mean nothing?

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 26 avril 2012 - 08:03 .


#207
Taboo

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SolidisusSnake1 wrote...

I'm glad I'm not the only one that face palmed at his comment. This makes me very scared for the EC as it shows BioWare truly believes in their nonsensical endings even going so far as to state that Geth v. All Organics was a central theme to ME.


Oh he knows how badly they goofed up.

Implications......implications.

#208
Benny8484

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No matter what happens, my Shepard will never choose synthesis.  Totally agree OP.  When I read his tweet I actually thought to myself "Did he actually just say that?" "This is what we have to look forward to in EC, assimilation?"

Clearly he missed the entire theme behind the Mass Effect series.  "Stop the reapers" Not give them ascension....

Pretty sure if you made a montage of all the times they say "Stop/destroy the repears" it would be like 50+ times.

#209
nitefyre410

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Taboo-XX wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Bioware loses the ability to use the Lovecraftian lore technique when they introduced the Star Child. The Reapers are puppets of a VI/AI that projects in the form of a child.

The Reapers are no longer the mighty Cthulhu, something beyond our comprehension. They are at face value the tools of a machine that presents no evidence to substantiate it's claims.

 

LOL... the lost that when we blow Sovereign to dust at the end of ME 1... last I checked you don't kill a Lovecraftian Horror...EVER.


I said lore. LORE. Cthulhu was wounded in The Call of Cthulhu remember?

The Reapers have been neutered by something Kubrick did in 1968.

Does my education mean nothing?

 

From my understanding... I thought  that could not happen... 

heh ya  learn somethigng new everyday. 

Modifié par nitefyre410, 26 avril 2012 - 08:10 .


#210
Taboo

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 A copy of a message I was sent. Please. Enjoy. I thought it was full of wisdom.


..........Unfortunately, I can't seem to get my posting privileges on the appropriate boards working, so, if I may, I'll imposing on you to repost my words... or, if you'd rather not (which I completely understand), I present the following for your intellectual pleasure (or displeasure, as I fear the case may be).

The trio of tweets from Mr. Gamble last night well and truly stunned me (as they seemed to have stunned you): the "is EDI alive? do you consider that a form of life?" tweet* is just mind boggling. It not only reflects a poor grasp of contemporary sci-fi, but a lack of understanding of ancient themes in philosophy. I mean, the statement "cogito ergo sum" ("I think, therefore I am") is only... 450 years old. 

Oh, and for fans of Doctor Who, the Doctor's description of how a Dalek thinks: "Human beings are different, and anything different is wrong." Nice to see we get to pick up where Davros left off... (the line is from the episode "Dalek" 2005).

By the way, you might want to look at the tweet Jessica Merizan put out last night as well, reiterating their position: "Nope it won't add new endings."

Sorry for the long message, and again, thanks so much for the time, effort and enthusiasm you've put into your posts. 

*https://twitter.com/#!/GambleMike/status/195336189677535234

**https://twitter.com/#!/JessicaMerizan/status/195254457578160128



#211
Ukjack44

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Can anyone come up with a logical conclusion to synthesis or any of the endings for that matter? With the rumours of a sequel I can't exactly see how they are going to physically carry on the Mass Effect series. They would like have to create a separate game for each ending.

#212
Taboo

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Ukjack44 wrote...

Can anyone come up with a logical conclusion to synthesis or any of the endings for that matter? With the rumours of a sequel I can't exactly see how they are going to physically carry on the Mass Effect series. They would like have to create a separate game for each ending.


Apparently Destroy is the only ending that creates variables.

#213
Seryl

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MisterJB wrote...
Perhaps the "offsprings" will no longer be humans or turians but something derived from it. However, if these new people retain what we normally consider as good; that is, free will, individuality, creativity, etc; while picking up certain improvements from Synthesis which could be anything from physical benefits like the Cerberus troops had to a new outlook on existence since the Catalyst wasn't exactly forthcoming on the results beyond "New DNA", why is this a bad thing?


It's a bad thing because it wasn't their choice to be changed. They didn't even get consulted before that choice was made. To even suggest that nobody could have any problems with this is mind-bogglingly arrogant. To actually do it is hubris of the highest order.

The fact is that any benefits of Synthesis could be achieved through education, experience and trying to overcome the inherent limitations of current instincts. This is what makes life worth living. What you are suggesting carries moral, ethical, spiritual and philosophical implications that are just scary to even consider, let alone execute.

MisterJB wrote...
And why does it matter if this originated in the decision of one single person as long as there are improvements?


You are basically arguing that the ends justifies the means. This is almost never true. It's usually trotted out to justify a course of action that is, at best, wrong.

Forcing Synthesis is, at best, a Pyrrhic victory. You've TEMPORARILY won, but the cost was destroying the very thing you sought to save. It's like killing a patient to cure cancer. Yes, he's now cancer free, but he's also not alive anymore. You accomplished what you set out to do, was it worth it?

#214
nitefyre410

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Taboo-XX wrote...

Ukjack44 wrote...

Can anyone come up with a logical conclusion to synthesis or any of the endings for that matter? With the rumours of a sequel I can't exactly see how they are going to physically carry on the Mass Effect series. They would like have to create a separate game for each ending.


Apparently Destroy is the only ending that creates variables.

 

Then  why make peace possible between the Quarians and the Geth and  give EDI a body ,romance and chatacter  development...

thats just... Why? 

#215
MisterJB

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MrAtomica wrote...
The differences between these peoples are not all derived from physical appearance, or "hardware" (as the Geth would say). These classifications are as much social constructs as they are categorical labels. We derive our sense of "self" from both nature and nurture. It is silly to believe that a simple blast of energy can erase all traces of individuality from life, even if everyone becomes similar in appearance.

This is, unquestionably, true.
Of course, I don't believe Synthesis will actually entirely remove individuality and, judging from the ending, everyone still looks very much like themselves.

Mr. Gamble's statement is actually even more insulting than the original scenario. His idea that there is nothing left but "life" is utter nonsense. There is no "life" left after Synthesis, not in the way that it existed before. Rather than respecting the chaotic, fractuous nature of life, Synthesis teaches us that we should all become the same if we wish to get along. Bull.

Or it is teaching us that we should stop placing labels on people; organic and machine turn into living beings in this case; if we want lasting peace.
However, realistically, that's not going to happen. So, we introduce a rogue element that will lead to this: Synthesis.
There is no evidence that diversity, either genetic or cultural, is gone after Synthesis.

Here's a better idea. Why don't we learn to cope with our differences, and get along because we learned to work past them, and not because we swept them under a sparkly new carpet? Did it ever occur to the Starbrat that the reason sentient synthetics chose hostility toward organics is because organics refused to treat the synthetics as a legitimate form of life? Would the Quarians and Geth not have lived peacefully if the Quarians had not openly attacked their creations?

Naturally, the StarChild is not basing itself solely on the Geth/Quarian conflict to justify its reasoning. The Reapers existed long before the geth or quarians did. It stands to reason that it has witnessed synthetics destroying organics before. The alternative is that AI that should act solely on logic created a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Of course, it should have explained itself better. Shepard could have point out how there is now peace between quarians and geth and the Catalyst could have simply refutted this.

#216
Ecrulis

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Taboo-XX wrote...

Bioware loses the ability to use the Lovecraftian lore technique when they introduced the Star Child. The Reapers are puppets of a VI/AI that projects in the form of a child.

The Reapers are no longer the mighty Cthulhu, something beyond our comprehension. They are at face value the tools of a machine that presents no evidence to substantiate it's claims.


This is one of the things about the last 5 minutes that enrages me the most. The reapers were so perfectly written, I didnt need to know their "motives" because I was supposed to not be able to comprehend their motives, they were supposed to be beings of a level of existance incomprehensible to organics and synthetics alike; but now? they are mere toys created and used by reaper boy <_< color me unimpressed.

One of my favorite quotes in the whole series "you exist because we allow it and will end because we demand it." I can no longer see that quote as menacing after the ending. 

#217
Eain

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I just wanna say that as a heavy proponent of AI development and transhuman thought, this thread warms my heart :)

The moral of Mass Effect's story simply seems to be that synthetics are going to kill us all, and that diversity is only a good thing when its organic diversity. Well, great. So I guess Mac Walters is a bigot towards synthetic life.

Modifié par Eain, 26 avril 2012 - 08:16 .


#218
Taboo

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I could technically eliminate the HIV/AIDS problem by killing everyone with the virus...

BUT

All it would take is a case of zoonosis and a mutation in the Primate Immuno-Deficiency Virus and it would start again.

Life (not life in the case of a virus) finds a way. There is no limit to evolution or mutation.

Medical knowledge appears to have been discarded as well.

How did this happen?

#219
BouncyCaitian

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Taboo-XX wrote...

Ukjack44 wrote...

Can anyone come up with a logical conclusion to synthesis or any of the endings for that matter? With the rumours of a sequel I can't exactly see how they are going to physically carry on the Mass Effect series. They would like have to create a separate game for each ending.


Apparently Destroy is the only ending that creates variables.


Assuming this is true, and Separd wakes up on whereever...and it's the 'bad' ending...then it's going to get uglier as the devs are offended that you took the free will choice and chose blow the Reapers to hell at the cost of you Synthetic buddies. Shep gets to be locked away for what's been done. At the very least, betraying your freinds and allies will not look well

#220
Taboo

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nitefyre410 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Ukjack44 wrote...

Can anyone come up with a logical conclusion to synthesis or any of the endings for that matter? With the rumours of a sequel I can't exactly see how they are going to physically carry on the Mass Effect series. They would like have to create a separate game for each ending.


Apparently Destroy is the only ending that creates variables.

 

Then  why make peace possible between the Quarians and the Geth and  give EDI a body ,romance and chatacter  development...

thats just... Why? 


Art.

Problem logical thinkers?

#221
nitefyre410

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Taboo-XX wrote...

I could technically eliminate the HIV/AIDS problem by killing everyone with the virus...

BUT

All it would take is a case of zoonosis and a mutation in the Primate Immuno-Deficiency Virus and it would start again.

Life (not life in the case of a virus) finds a way. There is no limit to evolution or mutation.

Medical knowledge appears to have been discarded as well.

How did this happen?

  

Artistic Vision, Artistic Integrity,   Like the Matrix, Speculation for Everyone and Space Magic :wizard:

#222
firebreather19

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Synthesis is that in your opinion, just like Control and Destroy options are different for different people.

#223
Skull Bearer

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Also, how is Synthesis going to end the Reaper war? The Reapers just murdered billions of sentient beings. Even if they do pull out and stop fighting, do you think the fleets will? After what the Reapers did to Earth/Palaven/Thessia/etc? And the fact that this creepy glowing green thing afflicting everyone will probably be blamed on them.

#224
adneate

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nuculerman wrote...
Does that give you the right to strip someone of their genetic biases?  Of course not.  But I still argue it's preferrable to committing mass genocide.


I'd aruge then that technically Shepard has no right to make any choice since all of them involve consequences that Shepard cannot possibly comprehend and outcomes Shepard cannot predict. However Synthesis is altering all life in way we don't understand, in a way that can't be undone and for a reason we don't comprehend. It's a "God" level decision and demands a "God" level amount of information and foresight on how this will affect every single individual in the galaxy for all time.

Comparatively destroying all Synthetic life can't even come close to requiring that much information mainly since it's focused soley on Synthetics not ALL life everywhere.

#225
nuculerman

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Ukjack44 wrote...

Can anyone come up with a logical conclusion to synthesis or any of the endings for that matter? With the rumours of a sequel I can't exactly see how they are going to physically carry on the Mass Effect series. They would like have to create a separate game for each ending.


Synthesis is canon.  The logical conclusion is everyone survives and becomes partly synthetic.  The Geth and EDI become partly organic (whatever that means).  The galaxy's future seems bright considering the "tell me about The Shepard" ending.  Any ME IP after the events of ME3 will probably look like ME already did, except everyone is a little green.  There's nothing to suggest Turians won't still be fighting Krogans for resources with Salarian help.  Or that Batarians still aren't fighting humans.  The point of synthesis is that no race can create a life form so much more advanced than them, the whole sentient population can be wiped out.  All the anti-synthesis arguments rest on extreme assumptions about what was actually done.  In fact we have no idea what was done.  Considering they want to obviously stick with it as canon, and assuming the bare minimum (they're not total loons) I think it's a fair assumption to guess the explanation will be something along the lines of "see the Geth, they haven't really changed."  "See the Turians, they're still nothing like humans."  "See the Batarians, man they still hate humans.  Even more so now, since Shepard turned them all green.  Everyone is way smarter now though."