139 réponses à ce sujet

[Killahead]

geisljapoa wrote...

TL:DR The HA is objectively worse than the other adepts.

Even if this was possible to claim (and if "objectively" is used in a, how do I put it in english, non-scientific way, I can to a certain extent agree with your statement), then some of us would still appreciate the challenge and variety to gameplay that the less effective class would offer. Not everything has to be equally good. Balance is just as much about giving classes and setups unique roles, and I'm pretty sure there are lots of situations where the HA is better than the AA. How often these situations occur is another thing though.

Modifié par Killahead, 02 mai 2012 - 04:40 .

[Leviathan898]

Shampoohorn wrote...


Also, what do you mean by "human adept will be able to throw the warp before the asari can throw throw"?  HA doesn't have throw.

He meant that the cooldown between singularity > warp is shorter than warp > throw.

[DevilDoc8404]

Still hopeless with shockwave broke.

Meh.

[xROLLxTIDEx]

Shampoohorn wrote...

Your point about sing/warp being faster is true by very misleading.  Warp/throw biotic explosions work on everything in the game because warp primes everything.  This categorical difference between the combos if much more relevant than the speed difference.

Also, what do you mean by "human adept will be able to throw the warp before the asari can throw throw"?  HA doesn't have throw.

Your point about how an HA deals with shields...  Shields are irrelevant to an Asari adept.  Stasis ignores shields.  Warp primes biotic explosions regardless of shields.  If you asked an asari adept about shields she would smile at you matronizingly and pat you on the head.

Warp-Throw will biotically explode anything, where as singularity-warp will not.  You are absolutely correct.   It is easier to play as the asari adept (assumption on my part) b/c as the asari adept you do not have to worry about what type of enemy you are dealing with, you can simply spam warp-throw and win. Profit!

The human adept does not have that luxury.  To be good with a character, any character, you have to understand what the character's strength and weaknesses are and how to apply them in game situations.   My posts in this thread are pointing out the strengths, weaknesses and differences of the human adept when compared to the asari.   When I say throw warp, I don't mean throw as in the power "throw" but in regards to the fact that your character will throw a blue ball, whether that ball be singularity/throw/warp, I use the throw to regards the action.  Sorry for the confusion.

Necessity is the mother of all inventions.  I say this b/c I am an N7 level of 750 (not that it matters and I've stopped promoting for the time being).  I have 7 of the original gold rare guns at X.  The other 4 original gold guns I have one at IX and the other 3 at VIII.  Of the DLC guns I have at VII, V, III respectively.  I have all of these and I STILL HAVE NOT UNLOCKED THE ASARI ADEPT.  Check my multiplayer manifest if you do not believe me.

Adept is my favorite class and I have logged many hours playing as the human adept.  I understand its strengths, weaknesses, how to use it, when to use what power and I have come to appreciate the human adept.   Some of you take for granted how awesome and life saving it can be to step out and warp a target and then biotically explode that target by shockwaving him through a wall without exposing yourself.

[UEG Donkey]

xROLLxTIDEx wrote...




I do not think HA's are dependant upon other biotics.  You believe that they are.  That is fine.  Each is our own opinion and arguing/discussing this opinion is counter productive.

Singularity is BOTH a detonation skill and a lock down skill.   You can use it either way and you should use it both ways or you are not using the HA to its full ability.   How can you not fully evolve a power and then in turn say that the power is no good?  

I play my HA like I do all my adepts, with a 6-6-6-5-3 build.   I like my glass canons!

I point out that singularity-warp is a faster combo than warp-throw.  This is becuase singularity has a faster cooldown than warp.  The human adept will be able to throw the warp before the asari can throw throw.  Do you disagree?

I also point out that it IS possible for the human adept to deal with shields and I gave you a couple different ways of doing so.  Never did I say that the human adept can deal with shielded enemies faster than the asari.  It takes an extra move for the human adept to deal with shielded enemies and thus longer than the asari.  I pointed this out.

And I have not once said that the human adept is better than the asari.  I point out what seperates the human from the asari.   This game is all about trade-offs and how you want to build, play any given character.  

We can discuss the differences because we might change our own opinion based on facts and opinions of others, frankly thats what forums should be used for, I harbor no annimousity towards you for your opinion I just think you have a biased viewpoint and your viewpoint is misleading. 

My female Human adept is a 6/6/0/6/6 build with expanding singularity but it has no greater utility than my other build which is 3/6/6/5/6. 

Singularity can't detonate and can only setup on weakened(er) enemies, it shouldn't be used as a setup.  AA won't warp/throw a canninbal, they'll usually just throw or throw/throw and that's faster and more efficent (able to cool down for the second target)  than warp/throw or singularity/warp. 

Against shielded enemies HA are less efficent than AA when there isnt an AJ because of eliminating the shield protection.

Against boss enemies warp/throw is superior to Warp/shockwave because of the range issues.  I personally play with detonation shockwave but to each his own. 

All of these issues are negated when playing with an AJ and with an AJ the HA is superior to the AA because of synergy between sphere/shockwave and reave/shockwave. 

Modifié par UEG Donkey, 02 mai 2012 - 07:35 .

[Ravennus]

Personally, I've never had this Shockwave bug happen to me, hosting or not.
I use it all the time, to detonate Biotic Explosions and also as crowd control. This is with the Rank 4 width evolution that some people are mentioning is the issue.
It really sucks if you're having this issue, and I'm sorry... just never had it myself, for whatever reason, and I spam the heck out of it when needed.

Secondly, can people stop saying that the Rank 6 detonate Singy evolution doesn't work when with Biotic Explosions? It does, and there is a dev post around here somewhere that said that it does (the post was made during MP beta).
I also tested it last night, and I was doing more damage with Warp + Singularity than Warp + Throw on my Asari Adept.


IMHO opinion, I agree that the human is not the "best" Adept out there... short range armor detonation with Shockwave, as well as Singularity still being the most nerfed power in the history of the franchise... but it's still an excellent character that not enough people give a chance.

Modifié par Ravennus, 02 mai 2012 - 07:48 .

[xROLLxTIDEx]

UEG Donkey wrote...

We can discuss the differences because we might change our own opinion based on facts and opinions of others, frankly thats what forums should be used for, I harbor no annimousity towards you for your opinion I just think you have a biased viewpoint and your viewpoint is misleading. 

My female Human adept is a 6/6/0/6/6 build with expanding singularity but it has no greater utility than my other build which is 3/6/6/5/6. 

Singularity can't detonate and can only setup on weakened(er) enemies, it shouldn't be used as a setup.  AA won't warp/throw a canninbal, they'll usually just throw or throw/throw and that's faster and more efficent (able to cool down for the second target)  than warp/throw or singularity/warp. 

Against shielded enemies HA are less efficent than AA when there isnt an AJ because of eliminating the shield protection.

Against boss enemies warp/throw is superior to Warp/shockwave because of the range issues.  I personally play with detonation shockwave but to each his own. 

All of these issues are negated when playing with an AJ and with an AJ the HA is superior to the AA because of synergy between sphere/shockwave and reave/shockwave. 

We are discussing the differences and likewise, I have no animousity towards you.  I am curious as to what you think my biased viewpoint is and how it is misleading.   My viewpoint this entire thread has been that the human adept is a good character and can be used with success against any faction, alone or with other biotics.  I also believe that the same is true for every character.   

Singularity should be used as a primer to detonate enemies.  I never said singularity can be used to detonate other biotic powers and if you think I stated that or wasn't clear, then my apologies.   

Why would you not warp/throw a cannibal??  A cannibal is a walking bomb.  Warp-throw on the cannibal and it will explode and you can get secondary kills with the explosion.  I do not understand why an AA would throw on a cannibal and then move on to another target.  

Likewise, as a human adept you want to find the cannibals, troopers, weak enemies and singularity-warp them so that the resulting biotic explosion will hit surrounding targets.   This is especially true when the surrounding targets have shields. 

Please find any direct quote from me where I said that the human adept is more efficient at dealing with shielded enemies than the asari. 

[Diablerist666]

Ravennus wrote...

Personally, I've never had this Shockwave bug happen to me, hosting or not.

It's PC-SPECIFIC, move along...

[Brettic]

The Mad Sage wrote...

First of all, Brettic, by insisting that people who have a different opinion than your own are being willfully ignorant, you are in turn representing yourself as being close-minded and arrogant. You don't agree with me, which is fine, but by saying that you are so clearly and evidently right because in your experience playing as or with a Human Adept, Asari Adepts are superior. This is a logical incongruity, and really proves nothing more than the fact your experiences with a proficient Human Adept are much, much rarer than your experiences with Asari Adept. If there is an insinuation to be had there at all, it is simply that it is more DIFFICULT for the average player to play a Human Adept as well as the Asari.

I, on the other hand, have no interest in comparisons at all. By comparing classes, you automatically do a disservice to at least one. I firmly believe each class is more than adequate on it's own merits, and while balancing issues may be required to "tweak" and appease the opinions of the masses, each class is individually more than capable of supporting and contributing to a squad. Even the red-headed stepchild of the Adepts, the Human.

To Spamming: Despite my opinion that these discussions, as I said, are not fair to the individual classes, I am more than willing to discuss the merits of one class over another, but generalities like "The Asari is better than the Human" are not fair to either class and diminishes the quality of gaming that has been offered by Bioware in this game that we all obviously enjoy. At least I assume we all enjoy it, or we wouldn't be here.

In that regard, I agree that the Asari Adept posses a powerful one-two punch with a nice utility skill that offers the player the ability to handle numerous situations adequately. But if you compare each skill she possesses to the Human Adept, Warp to Warp, Stasis to Singularity, and Shockwave to Throw, I think you'll find the Human Adept has more to offer you than you realize. Shockwave can stagger multiple enemies through cover and lift them helplessly in the air for a duration of time, which -- in my PERSONAL opinion -- makes it just as powerful and more versatile than Throw. Singularity has trap benefits, a DoT that effects any troop caught in it, and has a much better cooldown than Stasis.

I'm not saying the Human Adept is a flat improvement to the Asari -- that is a lost cause, and I'm afraid I'll never be able to get anyone to agree. But I do believe they are just as good in a multitude of situations. And yes, I do prefer the Drell Vanguard. ;D

Roll Tide: ..  love the name, man. Bama for life. Good points, too.

Your ignorance is not the same as my facts. This isn't a case of differring opinions, this is a case of objective facts. Frankly, your opinion is factually and evidently wrong.

[Ravennus]

Diablerist666 wrote...

Ravennus wrote...

Personally, I've never had this Shockwave bug happen to me, hosting or not.

It's PC-SPECIFIC, move along...

Sorry, I hadn't read that before.  Thanks for the information.

[UEG Donkey]

xROLLxTIDEx wrote...

UEG Donkey wrote...

We can discuss the differences because we might change our own opinion based on facts and opinions of others, frankly thats what forums should be used for, I harbor no annimousity towards you for your opinion I just think you have a biased viewpoint and your viewpoint is misleading. 

My female Human adept is a 6/6/0/6/6 build with expanding singularity but it has no greater utility than my other build which is 3/6/6/5/6. 

Singularity can't detonate and can only setup on weakened(er) enemies, it shouldn't be used as a setup.  AA won't warp/throw a canninbal, they'll usually just throw or throw/throw and that's faster and more efficent (able to cool down for the second target)  than warp/throw or singularity/warp. 

Against shielded enemies HA are less efficent than AA when there isnt an AJ because of eliminating the shield protection.

Against boss enemies warp/throw is superior to Warp/shockwave because of the range issues.  I personally play with detonation shockwave but to each his own. 

All of these issues are negated when playing with an AJ and with an AJ the HA is superior to the AA because of synergy between sphere/shockwave and reave/shockwave. 

We are discussing the differences and likewise, I have no animousity towards you.  I am curious as to what you think my biased viewpoint is and how it is misleading.   My viewpoint this entire thread has been that the human adept is a good character and can be used with success against any faction, alone or with other biotics.  I also believe that the same is true for every character.   

Singularity should be used as a primer to detonate enemies.  I never said singularity can be used to detonate other biotic powers and if you think I stated that or wasn't clear, then my apologies.   

Why would you not warp/throw a cannibal??  A cannibal is a walking bomb.  Warp-throw on the cannibal and it will explode and you can get secondary kills with the explosion.  I do not understand why an AA would throw on a cannibal and then move on to another target.  

Likewise, as a human adept you want to find the cannibals, troopers, weak enemies and singularity-warp them so that the resulting biotic explosion will hit surrounding targets.   This is especially true when the surrounding targets have shields. 

Please find any direct quote from me where I said that the human adept is more efficient at dealing with shielded enemies than the asari. 

Your viewpoint is misleading because you make truthful statements like sing/warp is faster than warp/throw.  Sure that's true but that only applies to weakened(er) enemies, that's why your statements are misleading. 

You've never stated that singularity could detonate but you are limiting yourself when you use a power as a setup  that won't work on armor or shields and that's why its usage in BE is limited. 

AA and HS can throw throw on enemies and if you aren't going to get collateral damage (65% of the time in my estimate) you should be casting throw or throw/ throw because your cooldown on the back end is much faster to hit the next target.  Try it with a HS, you will be suprised at how much more efficent you'll be.

You've never said that HA are more efficent at dealing with shields but you've always rationalized it by saying; you can shoot them or cast an additional warp but both of these pull you out of cover longer and with a 6/6/6/5/3 build I can't imageine that's a place you want to be (outside of cover). 

Modifié par UEG Donkey, 02 mai 2012 - 08:22 .

[xROLLxTIDEx]

UEG Donkey wrote...

Your viewpoint is misleading because you make truthful statements like sing/warp is faster than warp/throw.  Sure that's true but that only applies to weakened(er) enemies, that's why your statements are misleading. 

You've never stated that singularity could detonate but you are limiting yourself when you use a power as a setup  that won't work on armor or shields and that's why its usage in BE is limited. 

AA and HS can throw throw on enemies and if you aren't going to get collateral damage (65% of the time in my estimate) you should be casting throw or throw/ throw because your cooldown on the back end is much faster to hit the next target.  Try it with a HS since you will be suprised at how much more efficent you'll be.

You've never said that HA are more efficent at dealing with shields but you've always rationalized it by saying; you can shoot them or cast an additional warp but both of these pull you out of cover longer and with a 6/6/6/5/3 build I can't imageine that's a place you want to be (outside of cover). 

Singularity/Warp is faster than Warp/Throw.  This is true.   

Singularity/Warp does not work on amored/shielded enemies.  This is also true.

Singularity/Warp can combo faster on trash enemies than Warp/Throw.  You are limiting yourself as a human adept if you are not using the singularity/warp combo on trash enemies to produce biotic explosions to get secondary kills. 

Not rationalization buddy.  It is stating how you deal with shielded enemies when you are the human adept.   The asari adept does not have to worry about shields.  The human adept does.  You are being attacked by a goup of hunters.  Shockwave to push them back/stun them.  Shoot once or twice to fully remove what is left of one hunter's shield.  Singularity to grab shieldless hunter.  Warp Hunter to produce boom in the middle of goup of hunters/pyros attacking you.  Is that rationalization or discussing strategic tips on how to deal with enemies as the human adept?

On the throw/throw side note.  You can only see one enemy so you throw or throw/throw on that enemy so that you can attack a second enemy that is not near the original. If it was close enough to the original target you would warp/throw for the detonation.  Playing devil's advocate, if it takes you one second before you can identify the second target, you really aren't gaining anythng over using throw/throw instead of warp/throw.  In my estimation it'll take you over 1 second to turn and find that second target.. 65% of the time that is.

[KainD]

Human adept is a worthless class because all 3 powers get dodged, and get blocked and dodged by phantoms like there is no tomorrow. You just can't kill phantoms with Human adept powers, only with weapons, all 3 powers are useless, and all lesser enemies dodge powers as well from time to time.

[UEG Donkey]

xROLLxTIDEx wrote...

Singularity/Warp can combo faster on trash enemies than Warp/Throw.  You are limiting yourself as a human adept if you are not using the singularity/warp combo on trash enemies to produce biotic explosions to get secondary kills. 

Not rationalization buddy.  It is stating how you deal with shielded enemies when you are the human adept.   The asari adept does not have to worry about shields.  The human adept does.  You are being attacked by a goup of hunters.  Shockwave to push them back/stun them.  Shoot once or twice to fully remove what is left of one hunter's shield.  Singularity to grab shieldless hunter.  Warp Hunter to produce boom in the middle of goup of hunters/pyros attacking you.  Is that rationalization or discussing strategic tips on how to deal with enemies as the human adept?

On the throw/throw side note.  You can only see one enemy so you throw or throw/throw on that enemy so that you can attack a second enemy that is not near the original. If it was close enough to the original target you would warp/throw for the detonation.  Playing devil's advocate, if it takes you one second before you can identify the second target, you really aren't gaining anythng over using throw/throw instead of warp/throw.  In my estimation it'll take you over 1 second to turn and find that second target.. 65% of the time that is.

Throw or Throw/Throw works faster on trash enemies than sing/warp.  If you can't get a biotic detonation collateral kill don't warp throw it will take longer.  Why would it take you a second before you could ifdentify the second target?  Furthermore the increase in time takes place in the middle of your combination not on the backend as throw has the smallest cooldown warp the longest. 

Rationalizing is the process of validating one's opinion by unrelated or fallacious information and that's what you are doing when it comes to dealing with shields.  You can have the last word as we are going in circles. 

Modifié par UEG Donkey, 02 mai 2012 - 08:59 .

[xROLLxTIDEx]

KainD wrote...

Human adept is a worthless class because all 3 powers get dodged, and get blocked and dodged by phantoms like there is no tomorrow. You just can't kill phantoms with Human adept powers, only with weapons, all 3 powers are useless, and all lesser enemies dodge powers as well from time to time.

Warp is useless?

[KainD]

xROLLxTIDEx wrote...

KainD wrote...

Human adept is a worthless class because all 3 powers get dodged, and get blocked and dodged by phantoms like there is no tomorrow. You just can't kill phantoms with Human adept powers, only with weapons, all 3 powers are useless, and all lesser enemies dodge powers as well from time to time.

Warp is useless?

A lot more useless than reave, because it get's dodged. 

[xROLLxTIDEx]

UEG Donkey wrote...

Throw or Throw/Throw works faster on trash enemies than sing/warp.  If you can't get a biotic detonation collateral kill don't warp throw it will take longer.  Why would it take you a second before you could ifdentify the second target?  Furthermore the increase in time takes place in the middle of your combination not on the backend as throw has the smallest cooldown warp the longest. 

Rationalizing is the process of validating one's opinion by unrelated or fallacious information and that's what you are doing when it comes to dealing with shields.  You can have the last word as we are going in circles. 

I'm sorry that you lack reading comprehension. 

Why would an Asari Adept throw/throw instead of warp/throw?  This is not about the human adept at all.  This is simply why would you not produce the biotic explosion with warp/throw, even on trash?  You say that you throw/throw on trash enemies b/c you do not need the biotic explosion from the first one and throw/throw saves you one second over warp/throw.  You say you do this to save time so you can target the second guy faster.  In most cases when you do not need the biotic explosion b/c the enemy is by himself the enemies are so spread out at this point that it will take you a second to find the next target anyways.  The second you save yourself as the AA going with throw/throw instead of warp/throw isn't doing much.  

Once again you lack reading comprehension.  Discussing the methods a human adept must use to fight enemies is not rationalization.  If anything it is tactics.  Stating that a human adept can deal with shielded enemies and then giving an example of how to do so is rationalization?  Or is it backing a logical argument up with facts?

I'm sorry that you can not have a civil discussion.  Don't get mad.

[UEG Donkey]

Let me try this one more time. I apologize that my posts make you accuse me of lacking reading comprehension, it was very clever of you to accuse me of not comprehending and then requesting that I not get mad However let's put some facts out there about AA and HA.

(1) On a sole weakened(er) enemy; throw is going to outright kill them if used properly, that in and of itself makes it superior to singularity/warp on the off chance you have to use another throw,

(2) Throw/Throw is also superior against a weakened(er) enemy because it is faster and your backend cooldown is much less than sing/warp.

(3) Against clustered weakened(er) enemies warp/throw is almost as good as warp/throw because your total cooldown time is similar if not the same as sing/warp. You won't be able to use an ability after sing/warp.

(3) Against nonweakened enemies Warp/Throw is superior to Sing/Warp in that it works with out "gunning" enemies with the lone exception being the phantom. While its cool down before detonation is longer, the backend cooldown is much less with throw and warp being on opposite ends of the cool down spectrum.

(4) HA cannot effectively combat phantoms without heavier weapons or another biotic with stasis or biotic sphere.

(5) HA 6/6/6/5/3 build is much squishier than a 3/6/6/5/6 AA build or a 6/6/3/5/6 AJ Build making "gunning down shields" that much more difficult.

(6) Rationalizing and discussing tactics don't have to be mutually exclusive.

(7) Alabama is the second worst state in the union in regards to both reading comprehension and high school graduation rates.

Did I miss anything or say anything nonfactual?

[GGW KillerTiger]

 It still blows .... I think it's actually worse than before somehow .... If that is even possable ....

[mandalorian sun]

alright i have to say something here. The human adept is probably my most played class on multiplayer, i like it probably for roleplay purposes more than any other reason. As such, i have spent a lot of time working out the right build, how to play it, and how to make it work in any situation. I will post that build and tactics in a sec, but i want to make something clear. I had to work to figure this out, and the human adept is, in my opinion, not as effective as asari or even the drell, and i have played with all of them.

The ideal human adept build is 6/6/6/0/6. Don't bother with any weapons or power damage, explosions are the only purpose. With full fitness defense you can get in closer to use a range-specced shockwave on anything you warp. When you see a phantom, run away and spam shockwave like crazy with pistol rounds in between. Eventually he'll die.

If shockwave could get bonus explosion damage and range in the same build, i'd say it could rival throw, but since it can't, throw cools down twice as fast, deals more explosion damage, doesn't even need explosions to deal with health only units, and at any range too.

I bust ass to get high scores and use the best of the Human Adepts abilities for the right situation, but anybody who can't acknowledge that he has issues that no other adept has is being silly about it, there is no question. I mean hell, singularity is sooo inferior to pull too, pull has a better radius, shorter cooldown, more biotic explosion damage, suspends targets for twice as long, allowing you to miss the detonate and have time to try again without having to prime, and allows 25% more damage to suspended targets.

Do you want me to get into how much better reave is than warp?

[Axialbloom]

Good thing they blanket nerfed Biotic Explosions so that the human adept got nerfed.

[mandalorian sun]

Axialbloom wrote...

Good thing they blanket nerfed Biotic Explosions so that the human adept got nerfed.

I know right?

Modifié par mandalorian sun, 02 mai 2012 - 11:42 .

[Diablerist666]

They should have left the Singularity from SP. Faster projectile travel time and 50% more basic Radius make a world of difference. I just tested it in a friend's modded game and I could more reliably lockdown Marauders. They were unable to dodge out of it after being hit. They still tried shooting me but their accuracy was severely hampered. Pretty sure I could also lockdown Nemesis' too now just like in SP.

BW bring back teh reel Singularity NAO!

[HolyAvenger]

Its a very situational class for me, just like QI. Great against reapers, terrible against Cerb, meh against geth.

I am maining it for all my Reaper Gold runs now though.