312 réponses à ce sujet

[The Razman]

Icinix wrote...

Because if you're the kind of player who chooses sex as a reward - you want to see it? Since you chose sex as a reward - would you prefer an option come up depiciting different types of sex? Or if you would like the screen to go black and return you to the game? Because if its the later - why choose sex as a reward at all?

We have a word for that. It's called "titillation", no?

[Il Divo]

The Razman wrote...

And I'm amused that you've backpedelled your way into a "well yes, I was wrong, that is very immature, but I'm not going to back down ... instead I'm going to claim that a game which features the main character having graphic sex with multiple women as a reward for completing sidequests is still a mature game!"

*sigh* It's over, ok? It's done, move on.

If you don't understand how adjectives are employed in language it is still only your fault. That you could not address the example pretty definitvely demonstrates this. I could outline for you why [overall] the Witcher 2 is a mature work, but you would likely only continue screaming about the [rare] opportunities of sex in game and how it cannot be a mature work.

Modifié par Il Divo, 28 avril 2012 - 01:35 .

[Icinix]

The Razman wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Because if you're the kind of player who chooses sex as a reward - you want to see it? Since you chose sex as a reward - would you prefer an option come up depiciting different types of sex? Or if you would like the screen to go black and return you to the game? Because if its the later - why choose sex as a reward at all?

We have a word for that. It's called "titillation", no?

Arguably every bit of nudity or sex scene in the history of entertainment could be brought up as titillation and not necessary.

However - you didn't answer my question. You as the player chose that reward - what would you prefer you saw that would make it more mature in your eyes?

[The Razman]

Il Divo wrote...

The Razman wrote...

And I'm amused that you've backpedelled your way into a "well yes, I was wrong, that is very immature, but I'm not going to back down ... instead I'm going to claim that a game which features the main character having graphic sex with multiple women as a reward for completing sidequests is still a mature game!"

*sigh* It's over, ok? It's done, move on.

That you do not understand how adjectives are employed in language is still only your fault. That you could not address the example pretty definitvely demonstrates this. I could outline for you why [overall] the Witcher 2 is a mature work, but you would likely only continue screaming about the [rare] opportunities of sex in game and how it cannot be a mature work.

You seem to be in ignorance that something like that has an impact on the game's maturity. The fact that you cannot defend it means it can't be considered a mature game ... because no matter what you say, no matter who you say it to, someone can pop up and say "Wait, if this game is so mature ... why can I bang all these women as rewards for completing quests and see loads of cyber boobies?"

It's like a politician who tries to claim he's a model of common decency and integrity ... but it doesn't really hold up, given that he had a long string of affairs with prostitutes. It's just one, rare incident ... but a pretty major one. If he was so full of integrity and decency, why'd he have the affairs? And if The Witcher 2 is so full of maturity and artful integrity, why does it include loads of gratuitous sex?

Look, if you're willing to come back and defend the sex, then the door's open ... but it's a closed case otherwise, sorry.

[slimgrin]

Razman, you are inadvertently killing your own argument. Sex in TW2 does not need justification.

[The Razman]

Icinix wrote...

Arguably every bit of nudity or sex scene in the history of entertainment could be brought up as titillation and not necessary.

However - you didn't answer my question. You as the player chose that reward - what would you prefer you saw that would make it more mature in your eyes?

Something tasteful and implied, maybe? People who romance in Mass Effect have sex scenes which miraculously don't include gratuitous nudity simply for our pleasure.

Nudity can be done tastefully in games, just like in films. If you're going to put it in for the purposes of titillation ... then it's not mature. That's the difference between a sex scene in American Beauty and a sex scene in American Pie. Nudity for narrative is fine. Nudity for the audience to get their rocks off to is not. It's a simple concept.

Mass Effect 1 had tasteful sex scenes. The Witcher 2 had gratuitous sex scenes. Do you disagree with this statement?

[The Razman]

slimgrin wrote...

Razman, you are inadvertently killing your own argument. Sex in TW2 does not need justification.

No, the inclusion of the sex doesn't need justification in any way, I agree.

It does, however, need justification if you're going to claim that The Witcher 2 is a "mature, arty" game. Which is what this is about.

[Icinix]

The Razman wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Arguably every bit of nudity or sex scene in the history of entertainment could be brought up as titillation and not necessary.

However - you didn't answer my question. You as the player chose that reward - what would you prefer you saw that would make it more mature in your eyes?

Something tasteful and implied, maybe? People who romance in Mass Effect have sex scenes which miraculously don't include gratuitous nudity simply for our pleasure.

Nudity can be done tastefully in games, just like in films. If you're going to put it in for the purposes of titillation ... then it's not mature. That's the difference between a sex scene in American Beauty and a sex scene in American Pie. Nudity for narrative is fine. Nudity for the audience to get their rocks off to is not. It's a simple concept.

Mass Effect 1 had tasteful sex scenes. The Witcher 2 had gratuitous sex scenes. Do you disagree with this statement?

I don't know - there was only two sex scenes that I can recall having in The Witcher 2, both with Triss - and the first one was a bit of nudity - the second one perhaps pushed the envelope a bit - but no more than say 300 did, which I think is probably a better comparison than American Pie - which also had him jerking off in the shower in the first minute.

I do agree that ME1 was very tastefully done though.

[The Razman]

I would post links ... but if I could do that safely on these forums, then I wouldn't have much of a point. :-P

I'd google them ... if you stray away from the characters which are meant to have emotional attachment to Geralt like Triss, then they get rather ... well ... use Google.

[Icinix]

The Razman wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Razman, you are inadvertently killing your own argument. Sex in TW2 does not need justification.

No, the inclusion of the sex doesn't need justification in any way, I agree.

It does, however, need justification if you're going to claim that The Witcher 2 is a "mature, arty" game. Which is what this is about.

If you claim though that one aspect that may not even be present in some peoples games or makes sense to their character in the game prevents a game from being a mature or arty game - then I don't believe there is many games (if any) that can be claimed as being mature or arty.

Beyond the sex there is pointless turret sequences, silly mini games, bizarre side quests, and in the case of somethng like Neverwinter Knights - a lead woman whose boobs jiggled.

[Icinix]

The Razman wrote...

I would post links ... but if I could do that safely on these forums, then I wouldn't have much of a point. :-P

I'd google them ... if you stray away from the characters which are meant to have emotional attachment to Geralt like Triss, then they get rather ... well ... use Google.

But thats where I say that as a character playing that role for those rewards, they make sense. The player makes that choice, if the player didn't want them, they wouldn't make them.

My ME2 play through has no sex, but seeing the youtube videos I think Jacks quick fling and Mirands scenes are not tastefully done - however those two scenes don't prevent the game from being any more mature or arty in my eyes.

[julio77777]

It all boils down to : Razman was not receptive to the game (especially gratuitous sex scenes apparently), we were (and sex scenes did not shock particularly because it fitted with the character of the main protagonist), and some got their rock off it.
It has nothing to do with maturity (except in the last case) it's all about opinion, and they're all valid

[Icinix]

Anyway - been killing time before heading out - ME3 has a sexbot and a character has undergone a body replacement and enlarged boobs. I hate it - but I don't believe it affects the whole game.

The Witcher 2 has options for sex as a reward that is shown in a bit of detail, but the player makes the call that their character gets that as a reward - the player gets a scene as a reward if they so wish that the player can skip if they don't want to watch it. You can also go through the whole game as a loyal one man witcher.

Whatever your views on the sex - its a player choice and character / player reward - as such I don't believe a choice the player is capable of making can be used as an argument either for or against the game being mature - its just another element of the game.

What makes The Witcher 2 artistic and mature goes far beyond the few minutes of player / character rewards available as a choice. Its the deep political intrigue, its the dealing with racism and its views on morality and consequences of our actions as players - to the point where what may seem a just and good call at one point can lead to the violent deaths of innocents later.

Sex has been an integral part of entertainment in since they put plays on throughout the Ancient Greek empire - the only different with games like the Witcher 2 is we as the audience have the right to embrace it or side step it. That in itself makes it an even more powerful form of art and a more flexible mature game that the player can decide for themselves if they believe sex as a reward is an acceptable thing, or if it is not.

[ramnozack]

WHO CARES sex is in TW2 and theres absolutely sht you can do about it. This has nothing to do with ME and is just a bunch of PC fanatics and Console Fanboys flaming each other. Mods please lock this down.

[slimgrin]

ramnozack wrote...

WHO CARES sex is in TW2 and theres absolutely sht you can do about it. This has nothing to do with ME and is just a bunch of PC fanatics and Console Fanboys flaming each other. Mods please lock this down.

At the expense of a topic worth debating. Lets all get back to our comfortable little lives...

Modifié par slimgrin, 28 avril 2012 - 02:11 .

[Il Divo]

The Razman wrote...

You seem to be in ignorance that something like that has an impact on the game's maturity. The fact that you cannot defend it means it can't be considered a mature game ... because no matter what you say, no matter who you say it to, someone can pop up and say "Wait, if this game is so mature ... why can I bang all these women as rewards for completing quests and see loads of cyber boobies?"

This still refers back to my earlier point: Not every element of every work is immediately indicative of what that work is "about".

Take the Matrix. I doubt anyone would call it a comedy. So if it's not a comedy, why did they bother inserting any jokes into the experience?

The Witcher 2 is both larger and more focused than the sex present, which is the problem with your line of reasoning. That there are so few opportunities for gratuitous sex and that they are so easily avoided (or even missed) is indicative of the fact that the gratuitous sex is not representative of the total experience any more than a joke is representative of the Matrix or that space invaders is representative of Jade Empire.

Now if you had a whole list of criticisms, which centered on what the game itself focuses on, to go along with the criticism of gratuitous sex we might be getting somewhere. But as it stands, the experience is forcing nothing critical on you. As a collective whole, you really couldn't say the Witcher 2 is about gratuitous sex, otherwise you could point me to all those great examples where it's forced on the player. But then we could start playing the same game but instead with "gratuitous violence"  and its frequent presence in the RPG instead.  

It's like a politician who tries to claim he's a model of common decency and integrity ... but it doesn't really hold up, given that he had a long string of affairs with prostitutes. It's just one, rare incident ... but a pretty major one. If he was so full of integrity and decency, why'd he have the affairs? And if The Witcher 2 is so full of maturity and artful integrity, why does it include loads of gratuitous sex?

Sure, but that's a combination of both scale of the act and how many times the act is performed. I might say someone is known for being "honest", but it would be naive then to assume that the person has therefore never told a lie before.

Now more importantly, RPGs thrive on giving the player options. And those range from the more typical "Should I kill this guy?" to the more strange "Do I want to have a threesome with Zevran and Isabella?". Characters are defined by how they choose to act. Geralt (at least supposedly) is an ambigous character whom the player is able to shape. The only reason we might say it's gratuitous sex would be if the only reason the player chose it....was because they wanted to see sex, which is not inherently the case, any more than we might say that any Bioware game is inherently about sex or violence.  

Modifié par Il Divo, 28 avril 2012 - 02:19 .

[The Razman]

Icinix wrote...

The Razman wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Razman, you are inadvertently killing your own argument. Sex in TW2 does not need justification.

No, the inclusion of the sex doesn't need justification in any way, I agree.

It does, however, need justification if you're going to claim that The Witcher 2 is a "mature, arty" game. Which is what this is about.

If you claim though that one aspect that may not even be present in some peoples games or makes sense to their character in the game prevents a game from being a mature or arty game - then I don't believe there is many games (if any) that can be claimed as being mature or arty.

Beyond the sex there is pointless turret sequences, silly mini games, bizarre side quests, and in the case of somethng like Neverwinter Knights - a lead woman whose boobs jiggled.

The line between art and titillation is something very complicated ... I actually wrote my dissertation at uni on exactly this topic, the depiction of sex in video-games as opposed to other entertainment media. A lot of it comes down to the perceived cultural status of the medium, with video-games being well below films in that regard ... but The Witcher 2 is in a day and age where other games have portrayed the same level of sex with much more tact and subtlety. Mass Effect being one of those.

If you're portraying the sex for a narrative purpose, which moves the characters forward and works within the narrative in context, then you can make a case for artful nudity. The Witcher 2 does it for titillation; nobody's character is being progressed, and having done this academically I can tell you that a textual analysis of the actual sex scenes would show a large focus upon the male gaze. And I'm not against titillation in games, but you can't shoehorn sex for the purposes of titillation into the game and then claim that the game is "mature". That's the kind of thing we want to be moving away from in video-games.

Mass Effect did sex right. It did it tastefully, and tactfully, and appropriately to the narrative. The Witcher 2 just has sex for the sake of sex. And that's not mature.

[The Razman]

Il Divo wrote...

Now more importantly, RPGs thrive on giving the player options. And those range from the more typical "Should I kill this guy?" to the more strange "Do I want to have a threesome with Zevran and Isabella?". Characters are defined by how they choose to act. Geralt (at least supposedly) is an ambigous character whom the player is able to shape. The only reason we might say it's gratuitous sex would be if the only reason the player chose it....was because they wanted to see sex, which is not inherently the case, any more than we might say that any Bioware game is inherently about sex or violence.  

Just one question.

Would showing that threesome in graphic detail between you, Zevran and Isabella been a particularly mature thing for Bioware to have done?

[Chromie]

The Razman wrote...
 Mass Effect being one of those.

LOL everything you say is no wrong.

[The Razman]

Skelter192 wrote...

The Razman wrote...
 Mass Effect being one of those.

LOL everything you say is no wrong.

So ... everything I say is right, then?

I wouldn't go that far, but cheers.

[julio77777]

Thing is I don't see why you call a whole game immature because of a few (mostly optional) scenes (which I don't find immature in themselves, maybe the audience it was directed at is, but the scenes are not, and they can be viewed in a mature way in you see past the basic "boobs pixel yeah").

But you obviously disagree, so let's agree to disagree and leave it at that ?

[slimgrin]

The Razman wrote...

The line between art and titillation is something very complicated .

Not really. But it's sure easy to throw this card out there, isn't it?

And not just for games..let's make everything 'appropriate' now, shall we?

Modifié par slimgrin, 28 avril 2012 - 02:38 .

[Atakuma]

How the hell is this thread still going? Is it sorcery?

[julio77777]

Mods must be amused by it

I don't see how it could have gone this long otherwise....

[Chromie]

The Razman wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...

The Razman wrote...
 Mass Effect being one of those.

LOL everything you say is no wrong.

So ... everything I say is right, then?

I wouldn't go that far, but cheers.

Minor spelling error but I think you get it. If you honestly feel Bioware handles sex tastefully it's no wonder you think Witcher handled it badly. I'd hate to see you watch Game of Thrones you might be in for a shock.