106 réponses à ce sujet

[CBGB]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
The forcefield is visible, or hadn't you noticed?

Enoch VG wrote...
Your experience may differ, but any dog I've met hasn't needed more than one or two tries to figure out that it can't just run through the sliding glass door...

Insults aside, an appropriate drop - say with instant-turn for orange mobs, one attack for yellow, and two for whites - is fine.

Or no 'fix' whatsoever. If you think Force Field shouldn't keep Threat on a tank at all, then choose a tactic you do like.

I can't understand the driving need people have to make other play the way they do. If you don't like a certain tactic, don't use it. That doesn't mean it needs to be 'patched out' for other players.

[metatrans]

the issue was never that people were upset about how OTHER people were playing the game. the issue was that this spell could not be used as intended without cheapening or triviliazing the game play.



the issue is that players who LIKE THE IDEA of using force field to defend a tank (or any other party member) who suddenly gets in over there head cannot use this tactic without trivializing the encounter.



for example: i would like to have my tank Taunt a large group of enemies that will probably kill him after 10 seconds or so of tanking them. i'd like to then Force Field him at the 9 second mark to save his life while simultanesouly dropping a Fireball on the cluster to finish them off before they run to the rest of my party and beat us down.



the way Force Field works now doesn't really permit that, or at least certainly doesn't encourage it. what happens now is that i ought to Force Field immeidately after the taunt and then drop as many fireballs as i can with no fear of the mobs noticing that they got Fireballed while they just stand there and beat on the Force Field.



as things are now i am prevented from using a spell in a way that i think is fun and reasonable but permitted to use this same spell in a way that i think is not fun and abusive.



mob de-aggro would make this spell fun again.



thats the issue. its about fun. its not about how others should play. its about being able to have fun with a cool spell.

[CBGB]

metatrans wrote...
for example: i would like to have my tank Taunt a large group of enemies that will probably kill him after 10 seconds or so of tanking them. i'd like to then Force Field him at the 9 second mark to save his life while simultanesouly dropping a Fireball on the cluster to finish them off before they run to the rest of my party and beat us down..

That's reasonable.

How would you feel about it taking normal mobs a failed attack or two before turning their attention elsewhere, as opposed to an instant elimination of Threat?

[soteria]

CBGB wrote...

metatrans wrote...
for example: i would like to have my tank Taunt a large group of enemies that will probably kill him after 10 seconds or so of tanking them. i'd like to then Force Field him at the 9 second mark to save his life while simultanesouly dropping a Fireball on the cluster to finish them off before they run to the rest of my party and beat us down..

That's reasonable.

How would you feel about it taking normal mobs a failed attack or two before turning their attention elsewhere, as opposed to an instant elimination of Threat?

I feel the same way as him.  I first used FF on a friendly to save my rogue PC from dying during a grab from a dragon, and then realized the dragon was going to attack my rogue for the rest of the fight, even though he was invulnerable.  I felt pretty cheap.

Your suggestion is fine, but I think is a lot harder to implement than an instant drop of threat, which could just be coded with a disengage or combat stealth or feign death effect.  I'm not sure how you would code your idea with what they have in place. 

[Nick the Weregoat]

It is simple. If you do not wish to use the spell in that way, do not. You are not better than anybody. You simply make a choice to not exploit a spell in a creative manner. My friend said he uses force field to keep the leader of a given pull busy while he mops up the adds. That makes sense. Or maybe throw it on an enemy mage.



Now if you want to throw it on your own tank, that's up to you. There's no incentive for being 'better.' I would merely challenge you to beat the game on nightmare, if you do, and you use the force field trick, I would challenge you to beat the game without.



It's up to you what you want to get out of the game. I enjoy a tactical midieval combat role playing experience with funny dialog and excellent combat. I have one mage in my party and she's to make my health bar last long enough for my party to mop up the enemies. It's my choice. It's not better than your choice, it's independant of it.

[DragonRageGT]

Nick the Weregoat wrote...

It is simple. If you do not wish to use the spell in that way, do not. You are not better than anybody. You simply make a choice to not exploit a spell in a creative manner. My friend said he uses force field to keep the leader of a given pull busy while he mops up the adds. That makes sense. Or maybe throw it on an enemy mage.

Now if you want to throw it on your own tank, that's up to you. There's no incentive for being 'better.' I would merely challenge you to beat the game on nightmare, if you do, and you use the force field trick, I would challenge you to beat the game without.

It's up to you what you want to get out of the game. I enjoy a tactical midieval combat role playing experience with funny dialog and excellent combat. I have one mage in my party and she's to make my health bar last long enough for my party to mop up the enemies. It's my choice. It's not better than your choice, it's independant of it.

Perfectly said. I've never used FF on an exploitive manner ... I did mostly on enemy elite, like your friend, or on my PC (2hander warrior) when he was being chewed up by a Dragon or grabbed by an Ogre or Broodmother in my first run, Hard diff., but that is so rare now... haven't happened yet in my nightmare run with the same char... I don't even have mages in my current party setup and I'm doing just fine.

[DarkSpiral]

konfeta wrote...

But you can't hurt anyone using this tactic, because there is only yourself involved.

The difference between an overpowered tactic and a useless tactic is academic. Use of either one makes the game significantly less enjoyable to play, the result is that use of both is restricted in some manner.

The...gee..don't do it?  If you think it's less enjoyable, then play the game they way you do enjoy it.  People should strop crying for Bioware to fix an OP spell, and simply not use it in the manner you feel is OP.  The other players are not affecting yoru playing experience.  Stop whining.

[Pennoyer]

Nick the Weregoat wrote...

It is simple. If you do not wish to use the spell in that way, do not. You are not better than anybody. You simply make a choice to not exploit a spell in a creative manner. My friend said he uses force field to keep the leader of a given pull busy while he mops up the adds. That makes sense. Or maybe throw it on an enemy mage.

Now if you want to throw it on your own tank, that's up to you. There's no incentive for being 'better.' I would merely challenge you to beat the game on nightmare, if you do, and you use the force field trick, I would challenge you to beat the game without.

It's up to you what you want to get out of the game. I enjoy a tactical midieval combat role playing experience with funny dialog and excellent combat. I have one mage in my party and she's to make my health bar last long enough for my party to mop up the enemies. It's my choice. It's not better than your choice, it's independant of it.

Do you really think Bioware intended the enemies to react to this spell like they do?  It really is simple.  Fix the stupid thing.

[DarkSpiral]

Do you actually know that they didn't? Or is that an assumption on the part of the community?



That's an honest question, btw, not an accusation. Has Bioware commented that FF is not WAI?

[sinosleep]

Jayce F wrote...

I think its a good fix. It's not so much the taunt - FF - SotC combo that has resulted in its rebalancing as the fact that if you used force field on a boss to keep them out of a fight, it made combat obsurdly easy. You could keep them out of a fight as long as you wanted. To the point of being broken in fact.

That is flat out WRONG. Even prepatch, when cast on enemies forcefield HAS NEVER outlasted it's cool down. Where it becomes an infinite spell is ONLY when cast on party members. When you do that, the effect outlasts the cooldown making it outright impossible for enemies to get out of the taunt, forcefield loop.

[Isotemod]

Perhaps they could add the agro drop element of feign death to the spell effect.

That way enemy and ally AI should react appropriatly.



Apart from the fact low intelligence enemies may wail on the shield as they know no better.

[Faffnr]

Isotemod wrote...

Perhaps they could add the agro drop element of feign death to the spell effect.
That way enemy and ally AI should react appropriatly.

Apart from the fact low intelligence enemies may wail on the shield as they know no better.

Right, how do they know you dropped a Forcefield, for all they know it might just be a magical shield that needs a little extra bashing to get through.

[Begarian]

Force Field trivializes the game WAY too much the way it is right now if you choose to abuse it. I've played through the game two and a half times now and have never, ever used Force Field. I prefer to use crowd control skills and spells, and rely on tank and spank tactics with crowd control.

[Gliese]

The taunt + ff tactic is overpowered but aside from that force field should not be a tier2 spell, it's far too often succesfull on bosses and even elite bosses and lasts far too long for that.

Even if taunt wasn't in the game FF would easilly be the best tier2 spell by a large margin. Not only that but the other spells in that tree are all good or very good.



I think that instead of



Mind Blast-> FF-> Telekinetic Weapons-> Crushing Prison



it should be



Mind Blast-> Telekinetic Weapons-> Crushing Prison-> FF



With an appropriate high magic requirement.

[WillieStyle]

Gliese wrote...

The taunt + ff tactic is overpowered but aside from that force field should not be a tier2 spell, it's far too often succesfull on bosses and even elite bosses and lasts far too long for that.
Even if taunt wasn't in the game FF would easilly be the best tier2 spell by a large margin. Not only that but the other spells in that tree are all good or very good.

I think that instead of

Mind Blast-> FF-> Telekinetic Weapons-> Crushing Prison

it should be

Mind Blast-> Telekinetic Weapons-> Crushing Prison-> FF

With an appropriate high magic requirement.

What difference would that make?  They are all spells every mage would want to take anyway (except maybe tk weapons).  Swapping the order just delays how quickly you can get FF by 2 levels or so.

And increasing the magic requirement would be equally pointless. What else is a mage going to spend ability points on? Willpower? 

Modifié par WillieStyle, 08 décembre 2009 - 06:12 .

[Romeo Longsword]

nuculerman wrote...

Pennoyer wrote...

Will enemies still mindlessly attack a warrior who just taunted?  What is the new duration and cooldown?

The cooldown and duration should not be nerfed.  All that needs to happen is that your enemies have to pass a relatively low mental resist to move on to a new target.  If that's all that happened force field would work like it was supposed to, as a single target CC spell with a decent cooldown time or last ditch effort to protect you archer/mage who accidently drew aggro.

If it's too hard to make it a mental resist, the power would be just fine if enemies automatically moved on to a new target after you force field an ally.  But nerfing the cooldown is just silly.  Try casting it on an enemy.  They're free when it still has half of its time left if they're white and 1/4 of its time left if they're a boss.  I fail to see how that is over powered, considering crushing prison does massive damage while immobilizing the foe and only has twice the cooldown.  There's no need to make ff a nerfed crushing prison.

I totally disagree, expecting much from the doing of one spell, what the lastest patch did is fine. Personal view.

[Gliese]

WillieStyle wrote...

Gliese wrote...

The taunt + ff tactic is overpowered but aside from that force field should not be a tier2 spell, it's far too often succesfull on bosses and even elite bosses and lasts far too long for that.
Even if taunt wasn't in the game FF would easilly be the best tier2 spell by a large margin. Not only that but the other spells in that tree are all good or very good.

I think that instead of

Mind Blast-> FF-> Telekinetic Weapons-> Crushing Prison

it should be

Mind Blast-> Telekinetic Weapons-> Crushing Prison-> FF

With an appropriate high magic requirement.

What difference would that make?  They are all spells every mage would want to take anyway (except maybe tk weapons).  Swapping the order just delays how quickly you can get FF by 2 levels or so.

And increasing the magic requirement would be equally pointless. What else is a mage going to spend ability points on? Willpower? 

I didn't suggest this should be the only solution. It would be a bit harder for Morrigan or Wynne than for the pc though to pick up FF since they don't have all their stats in magic and might not have picked that tree to begin with before joining the party (especially Wynne). But you make a good point especially for the pc, maybe they could add a level req as well like 12 minimum?

Other nerfs are probably necessary though, having enemies stop attacking FFd chars would be a good start. Also making bosses and elite bosses more resistant to it or have it last a shorter time on them perhaps.

[sinosleep]

I don't think the time needs to be shortened at all in regards to enemies. I don't think I've EVER cleared out what's usually an entire room full of baddies after having cast ONE force field on the boss. It last half the time as it does on party and you don't ever really need to cast it a second time any way. It's duration is just long enough to make the fight manageable and when it's worn off the cool down is still in effect. Then again, I've never played with more than one mage in my party or gotten very far as a mage pc, in which case maybe you can clear out rooms in the span of one ff spell cast on a boss.

Though in that instance the problem wouldn't be FF, it'd be using a grossly overpowered party.

Modifié par sinosleep, 08 décembre 2009 - 06:25 .

[DragoonKain3]

I still maintain FF should be 5 sec invulnerability for 10 second cooldown (or maybe even 15 or 20, tihnk 15 should be good), rather than an aggro wipe on the target. Lasts long enough to save that person's butt since by then your healer's CD for their heals should be up, but not long enough for you to abuse AoEs on a FF'ed tank.

Trust me guys, wiping aggro is also abuseable. Your healer or your DPS mage got the attention of all the mobs? Force field --> Dispel Magic/Cleanse Area (your tank is a templar, right?). You've just imitated Feign Death at a MUCH lower cooldown.... >_>

[themaxzero]

Does anyone know how the spells actually changed? Or which file I have to look at to check?

[Gliese]

DragoonKain3 wrote...
Trust me guys, wiping aggro is also abuseable. Your healer or your DPS mage got the attention of all the mobs? Force field --> Dispel Magic/Cleanse Area (your tank is a templar, right?). You've just imitated Feign Death at a MUCH lower cooldown.... >_>

Sounds good to me, makes dispel and cleanse actually useful and it still takes the use of 2 talents to pull off. Having your tank use taunt is probably more effective alot of the time.

[themaxzero]

Gliese wrote...

DragoonKain3 wrote...
Trust me guys, wiping aggro is also abuseable. Your healer or your DPS mage got the attention of all the mobs? Force field --> Dispel Magic/Cleanse Area (your tank is a templar, right?). You've just imitated Feign Death at a MUCH lower cooldown.... >_>

Sounds good to me, makes dispel and cleanse actually useful and it still takes the use of 2 talents to pull off. Having your tank use taunt is probably more effective alot of the time.

Yes but Taunt + FF needs two talents as well and you think thats bad.

[Koralis]

CBGB wrote...
\\The proposed 'fix' of having mobs instantly drop all attention to an enclosed tank is silly, anyway, since it gives any mob meta-game intelligence (imagine a wolf saying, "ah! The old Force Field trick!"). It's much more sensible to have a gradual drop in threat which each ineffective blow.

For wolves, sure.   However, most of the humanoids are pretty smart.   Even a Cultist Reaver shouldn't be so daft as to hack at the shimmering field around you 10 times without doing anything noticable while people are stabbing him in the back.

One hit, sure.  2 maybe.  Only the bestial and truely stupid should keep going past that.

[Brigonos]

There are tons of shimmering effects. How are the bad guys to know which is a shield and which is momentum, etc.?



These are bad guys. They have emotional problems. Maybe they have anger issues. Once they are mad at something, they will beat on it no matter what. They don't know the duration of the spell and they want to be sure to kill their target as soon as it wears off.

[soteria]

Nick the Weregoat wrote...

It is simple. If you do not wish to use the spell in that way, do not. You are not better than anybody. You simply make a choice to not exploit a spell in a creative manner. My friend said he uses force field to keep the leader of a given pull busy while he mops up the adds. That makes sense. Or maybe throw it on an enemy mage.

Now if you want to throw it on your own tank, that's up to you. There's no incentive for being 'better.' I would merely challenge you to beat the game on nightmare, if you do, and you use the force field trick, I would challenge you to beat the game without.

It's up to you what you want to get out of the game. I enjoy a tactical midieval combat role playing experience with funny dialog and excellent combat. I have one mage in my party and she's to make my health bar last long enough for my party to mop up the enemies. It's my choice. It's not better than your choice, it's independant of it.

You totally missed the point.  I want to be able to use the spell to save a dying party member without exploiting the AI.