106 réponses à ce sujet

[EleventhLokust]

Koralis wrote...

CBGB wrote...
\\\\The proposed 'fix' of having mobs instantly drop all attention to an enclosed tank is silly, anyway, since it gives any mob meta-game intelligence (imagine a wolf saying, "ah! The old Force Field trick!"). It's much more sensible to have a gradual drop in threat which each ineffective blow.

For wolves, sure.   However, most of the humanoids are pretty smart.   Even a Cultist Reaver shouldn't be so daft as to hack at the shimmering field around you 10 times without doing anything noticable while people are stabbing him in the back.

One hit, sure.  2 maybe.  Only the bestial and truely stupid should keep going past that.

In all fairness, Morrigan will continue to fire staff bolts at a target that she just put a Force Field on.  Sure, I could stop her, but I kind of feel like she deserves to waste her time.

[Brigonos]

soteria wrote...

Nick the Weregoat wrote...

It is simple. If you do not wish to use the spell in that way, do not. You are not better than anybody. You simply make a choice to not exploit a spell in a creative manner. My friend said he uses force field to keep the leader of a given pull busy while he mops up the adds. That makes sense. Or maybe throw it on an enemy mage.

Now if you want to throw it on your own tank, that's up to you. There's no incentive for being 'better.' I would merely challenge you to beat the game on nightmare, if you do, and you use the force field trick, I would challenge you to beat the game without.

It's up to you what you want to get out of the game. I enjoy a tactical midieval combat role playing experience with funny dialog and excellent combat. I have one mage in my party and she's to make my health bar last long enough for my party to mop up the enemies. It's my choice. It's not better than your choice, it's independant of it.

You totally missed the point.  I want to be able to use the spell to save a dying party member without exploiting the AI.

I want a unicorn.

You know what the spell does.  It holds the target in place and makes it invulnerable.  It does not mention aggro.  Use it or don't.  Exploit it or don't.

[soteria]

Brigonos wrote...

soteria wrote...

Nick the Weregoat wrote...

It is simple. If you do not wish to use the spell in that way, do not. You are not better than anybody. You simply make a choice to not exploit a spell in a creative manner. My friend said he uses force field to keep the leader of a given pull busy while he mops up the adds. That makes sense. Or maybe throw it on an enemy mage.

Now if you want to throw it on your own tank, that's up to you. There's no incentive for being 'better.' I would merely challenge you to beat the game on nightmare, if you do, and you use the force field trick, I would challenge you to beat the game without.

It's up to you what you want to get out of the game. I enjoy a tactical midieval combat role playing experience with funny dialog and excellent combat. I have one mage in my party and she's to make my health bar last long enough for my party to mop up the enemies. It's my choice. It's not better than your choice, it's independant of it.

You totally missed the point.  I want to be able to use the spell to save a dying party member without exploiting the AI.

I want a unicorn.

You know what the spell does.  It holds the target in place and makes it invulnerable.  It does not mention aggro.  Use it or don't.  Exploit it or don't.

The great thing is, although you can't get a unicorn, I have a decent chance of seeing this spell fixed.  Have a nice day.

[Matthew Young CT]

The great thing is, although you can't get a unicorn, I have a decent chance of seeing this spell fixed.  Have a nice day.

its like 1 line. when an enemy choose who to attack insert a if getproperty(target, forcefield). absolutely trivial, if bioware dont change it it can only be because they want it as is. easy to mod in that case!

[Dasim4]

I really don't want them to start changing a bunch of things because people whine and complain. That's what totally ruined WoW for me and was one of the major reasons I quit playing that game after 3 years of being a dedicated WoW player. I just got fed up with the developers never leaving the game alone and people constantly complaining about every little facet of the game's dynamics. The only thing that bugged me about this particular topic in Dragon Age was that my party would almost always start attacking the enemy mob in the bubble which seemed stupid. The spell's timer and the way it worked seemed perfectly fine to me otherwise.

[kongenial]

Sadly this has happened. Why do developers fix those glitches which some people exploit and complain about while they did not seem to bugger the whole beta? The dagger-bug was certainly an error in the mechanics but did they not test the spells all the way?



As one already wrote: Exploit the spell or do not, it's up to you.

[Jayce]

sinosleep wrote...

Jayce F wrote...

I think its a good fix. It's not so much the taunt - FF - SotC combo that has resulted in its rebalancing as the fact that if you used force field on a boss to keep them out of a fight, it made combat obsurdly easy. You could keep them out of a fight as long as you wanted. To the point of being broken in fact.

That is flat out WRONG. Even prepatch, when cast on enemies forcefield HAS NEVER outlasted it's cool down. Where it becomes an infinite spell is ONLY when cast on party members. When you do that, the effect outlasts the cooldown making it outright impossible for enemies to get out of the taunt, forcefield loop.

It's not flat out WRONG at all, so spare me the capitals. I've used that tactic effectively throughout an entire playthrough. Unless you're trying to imply I spent the entire time suffering from a pretty specific halucination?

The only time a well-built Wynne/Spirit Healer's cool down is longer than spell duration is on nightmare mode or a character who hadn't invested as heavily in Magic.

[Brigonos]

It hurts when I bang my head on this wall. Bioware, please nerf the wall.

[sinosleep]

Jayce F wrote...

It's not flat out WRONG at all, so spare me the capitals. I've used that tactic effectively throughout an entire playthrough. Unless you're trying to imply I spent the entire time suffering from a pretty specific halucination?

The only time a well-built Wynne/Spirit Healer's cool down is longer than spell duration is on nightmare mode or a character who hadn't invested as heavily in Magic.

I play on nightmare, and Morrigan had 62 magic and never once had a ff last for more than 3/4 of the cooldown when cast on an enemy. On her own party, sure, she could infinitely chain it, but not on enemies.

Modifié par sinosleep, 08 décembre 2009 - 05:50 .

[Gliese]

sinosleep wrote...

Jayce F wrote...

It's not flat out WRONG at all, so spare me the capitals. I've used that tactic effectively throughout an entire playthrough. Unless you're trying to imply I spent the entire time suffering from a pretty specific halucination?

The only time a well-built Wynne/Spirit Healer's cool down is longer than spell duration is on nightmare mode or a character who hadn't invested as heavily in Magic.

I play on nightmare, and Morrigan had 62 magic and never once had a ff last for more than 3/4 of the cooldown when cast on an enemy. On her own party, sure, she could infinitely chain it, but not on enemies.

I played through on hard, endgame Morrigan had 65 spellpower and I have the same experience with duration/cooldown (prepatched).

[Gliese]

themaxzero wrote...

Gliese wrote...

DragoonKain3 wrote...
Trust me guys, wiping aggro is also abuseable. Your healer or your DPS mage got the attention of all the mobs? Force field --> Dispel Magic/Cleanse Area (your tank is a templar, right?). You've just imitated Feign Death at a MUCH lower cooldown.... >_>

Sounds good to me, makes dispel and cleanse actually useful and it still takes the use of 2 talents to pull off. Having your tank use taunt is probably more effective alot of the time.

Yes but Taunt + FF needs two talents as well and you think thats bad.

It's all subjective but I think the taunt+ff combo is more powerful especially since you could keep it up indefinitely due to duration and cooldown times. But now they went ahead and nerfed FF in 1.02 so that's fine.

[themaxzero]

Gliese wrote...

themaxzero wrote...

Gliese wrote...

DragoonKain3 wrote...
Trust me guys, wiping aggro is also abuseable. Your healer or your DPS mage got the attention of all the mobs? Force field --> Dispel Magic/Cleanse Area (your tank is a templar, right?). You've just imitated Feign Death at a MUCH lower cooldown.... >_>

Sounds good to me, makes dispel and cleanse actually useful and it still takes the use of 2 talents to pull off. Having your tank use taunt is probably more effective alot of the time.

Yes but Taunt + FF needs two talents as well and you think thats bad.

It's all subjective but I think the taunt+ff combo is more powerful especially since you could keep it up indefinitely due to duration and cooldown times. But now they went ahead and nerfed FF in 1.02 so that's fine.

Just use 2 mages.

[Mobisto]

Matthew Young CT wrote...

The great thing is, although you can't get a unicorn, I have a decent chance of seeing this spell fixed.  Have a nice day.

its like 1 line. when an enemy choose who to attack insert a if getproperty(target, forcefield). absolutely trivial, if bioware dont change it it can only be because they want it as is. easy to mod in that case!

Exactly.

To those to argue "don't like it, don't use it", I think your logics are quite funny.


Here's an analogy: Bioware creates an uber shield (100% physical damage and spell resist) and puts in your bag at the start of level 3. The shield has a HUGE warning: DO NOT EQUIP IF YOU DON'T WANT TO CHEESE YOUR GAME. What would you think about that?

The situation is essentially the same with force field right now. It's a game breaking AI stupidity. I discovered this "combo" by mistake, when my mage casts FF on a dying Alistair, I stared in awe of the absurdity. The hurlock emissary pretty much finished that fight for me by throwing a fireball on the invincible Alistair and killing his comrades...

[LynxAQ]

I also can't quite grasp the mentality of "if you don't like it, don't use it". Like Mobisto, I discovered the stupidity when I used it to save Alistair on a dragon grab and much to my surprise, the dragon continued to beat on the now invulnerable Alistair. I reloaded the game and fought the dragon again cause that kill felt very much like I had put a cheat code into the game or something.



I can't understand how people waste there time playing a game if not for the challenge? And using the taunt FF AoE "tactic" (No its not a tactic, its a sign of being a bad player), sucks all the life and challenge out of the game. If I was a developer and I was involved in this game, I would be embarrassed to have such bad AI...

[borelocin]

Skellimancer wrote...

Ah.. a killing-blow-always mod i was using stopped the patch changes.

Works now.

Ah ! I had the same issue and didn't realise it. Thankyou.

[kongenial]

LynxAQ wrote...

I also can't quite grasp the mentality of "if you don't like it, don't use it". Like Mobisto, I discovered the stupidity when I used it to save Alistair on a dragon grab and much to my surprise, the dragon continued to beat on the now invulnerable Alistair. I reloaded the game and fought the dragon again cause that kill felt very much like I had put a cheat code into the game or something.

Well, I am only able to speak for myself, but as an example. I still play Diablo 2 SP and have quite a lot good stuff. Nevertheless I straight play only selffound characters. Why? - Because it's fun.
Now noone explains why not to use "Force Field", as a character can be made invulnarable for some time, but not the whole.

And this not even explains why a dragon has to possess the power to kill a group of heroes, that is already destined to save the world and slay all evil. Where's the meaning?

[Brigonos]

Mobisto wrote...

Matthew Young CT wrote...

The great thing is, although you can't get a unicorn, I have a decent chance of seeing this spell fixed.  Have a nice day.

its like 1 line. when an enemy choose who to attack insert a if getproperty(target, forcefield). absolutely trivial, if bioware dont change it it can only be because they want it as is. easy to mod in that case!

Exactly.

To those to argue "don't like it, don't use it", I think your logics are quite funny.


Here's an analogy: Bioware creates an uber shield (100% physical damage and spell resist) and puts in your bag at the start of level 3. The shield has a HUGE warning: DO NOT EQUIP IF YOU DON'T WANT TO CHEESE YOUR GAME. What would you think about that?

The situation is essentially the same with force field right now. It's a game breaking AI stupidity. I discovered this "combo" by mistake, when my mage casts FF on a dying Alistair, I stared in awe of the absurdity. The hurlock emissary pretty much finished that fight for me by throwing a fireball on the invincible Alistair and killing his comrades...

Great analogy.  Just like no one forces you to use overpowered equipment (I don't use the dragon blood armor or the armor from warden's keep), no one forces you to cheese your way through the game with force field.

Thanks for supporting the "don't like it, don't use it" camp.

[Brigonos]

LynxAQ wrote...

I also can't quite grasp the mentality of "if you don't like it, don't use it". Like Mobisto, I discovered the stupidity when I used it to save Alistair on a dragon grab and much to my surprise, the dragon continued to beat on the now invulnerable Alistair. I reloaded the game and fought the dragon again cause that kill felt very much like I had put a cheat code into the game or something.

I can't understand how people waste there time playing a game if not for the challenge? And using the taunt FF AoE "tactic" (No its not a tactic, its a sign of being a bad player), sucks all the life and challenge out of the game. If I was a developer and I was involved in this game, I would be embarrassed to have such bad AI...

So basicly, you didn't like it, so you didn't use it.  Thanks for making my point for me.

[CloudOfShadows]

Pennoyer wrote...

Nick the Weregoat wrote...

It is simple. If you do not wish to use the spell in that way, do not. You are not better than anybody. You simply make a choice to not exploit a spell in a creative manner. My friend said he uses force field to keep the leader of a given pull busy while he mops up the adds. That makes sense. Or maybe throw it on an enemy mage.

Now if you want to throw it on your own tank, that's up to you. There's no incentive for being 'better.' I would merely challenge you to beat the game on nightmare, if you do, and you use the force field trick, I would challenge you to beat the game without.

It's up to you what you want to get out of the game. I enjoy a tactical midieval combat role playing experience with funny dialog and excellent combat. I have one mage in my party and she's to make my health bar last long enough for my party to mop up the enemies. It's my choice. It's not better than your choice, it's independant of it.

Do you really think Bioware intended the enemies to react to this spell like they do?  It really is simple.  Fix the stupid thing.

I think they did.
I remember someone from Bioware explaining that the game is about you (and me aka the players) dominating the battlefield. FF is a wonderful example of how we can dominate the battlefield. I think it works as intended. It's one of those spells you can pick up to make your experience more enjoyable, if you face difficult battles - or skip over, if you find battles are not challenging enough for you.

[Gliese]

If a particular spell or talent is OP compared to others then:



a) people that want to use the most powerful spell/talent/tactic loses because their game loses versatility, now there's only 1 path which makes things more boring.



people that are fine with self-imposed limits of not using the spell/talent loses because they just lost a possible spell/talent so their game also loses versatility.



The only difference is it hurts the people in category a more. That's no reason for category b people to be happy about it.

[soteria]

Brigonos, do you actually have some sort of argument to support your position, or do you just get a warm fuzzy from repeating "don't like it don't use it"? You seem like a troll, given your repetitive one-liners.

[sinosleep]

Gliese wrote...

I played through on hard, endgame Morrigan had 65 spellpower and I have the same experience with duration/cooldown (prepatched).

That's what I've seen from everyone I've ever seen post in a force field thread, and being as it's practically the most overdone thread on these forums that's an awful lot. I have never seen FF outlast it's cooldown when cast on an enemy or even heard of it done till this thread.

[Brigonos]

My argument is this:

You know what the spell does. You don't like it. You are not required to use it. You use it anyway.

Whatever could be done to prevent your mental anguish? You could (A) not use it or ( Cry about it and demand Bioware pull devs from real projects to change their game to conform to your personal vision.



(A) is much easier and the results are immediate.

[Dagorgil]

soteria wrote...

Your suggestion is fine, but I think is a lot harder to implement than an instant drop of threat, which could just be coded with a disengage or combat stealth or feign death effect.  I'm not sure how you would code your idea with what they have in place. 

It's actually not as hard as you would imagine.  It could just be coded that if the attack was ineffective, there would be a loss of an amount of aggro.  Since any amount of damage adds to a character's aggression, it would only be a short time between their added aggro, and the shielded character's decreasing aggro before the mob would switch targets.

[soteria]

Brigonos wrote...

My argument is this:
You know what the spell does. You don't like it. You are not required to use it. You use it anyway.
Whatever could be done to prevent your mental anguish? You could (A) not use it or ( Cry about it and demand Bioware pull devs from real projects to change their game to conform to your personal vision.

(A) is much easier and the results are immediate.

Ok, so you're trolling.  Got it.