314 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

ShepnTali wrote...
Stop bashing ITers. There is some evidence, and Final Hours shows the idea was dabbled with. It's not without some merit. I sometimes wonder if there's jealousy of other users creative thinking.

I'm bashing ITists because they want to turn the choices I prefer (both of them) into a "you lose" button, and I won't stop saying they're hypocrites for depriving me of my choice while saying theirs don't matter. "Destroy is the only option" is an opinion based on ideology, not on what's actually in the game, and implementing anything of the kind would destroy roleplaying for everyone else.

So yes, I WILL continue to bash ITists unless they go back on "Destroy is the only option [where you win]". That's trying to enshrine one choice as canonical.

Apart from that, I'm not totally opposed to the idea that the starchild sequence isn't real, though it makes no sense that the "dream" starts before that.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 avril 2012 - 06:02 .

[The Angry One]

[quote]IsaacShep wrote...

[quote]The Angry One wrote...

Call the TIM scene what you like, but it's not indoctrination.[/quote]The files/assets (like the dark veins effect) have "indoctrination" in their names.[/quote]
[/quote]

Unsurprising, since the original sequence was going to have Shepard struggling with indoctrination, which they were trying to implement for a good long time into the actual game, meaning assets were made for it.
They were just repurposed for use with the TIM scene.

[SauliusL]

OdanUrr wrote...

Parabolee77 wrote...

Come on, think about that logically. You think they were experimenting with a Gameplay section where Shepard was under Reaper control but WAS NOT an intentional part of the story? And as late as November 2011. Mere months from release? That makes very little sense. Anything as important as Shepard being under Reaper control HAD to have intentional story tied to it. That's not a throw away gameplay section.

And it wasn't because it "was incompatible with dialogue", which makes it sound as if the recorded dialogue didn't match the idea. But because (and this is a direct quote) "the gameplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices". That's VERY different to how you stated it. It was dropped becasue they could not reconsile Shepard being under FULL control and having CHOICES. I read that to mean (and I admit this is mere speculation) that Shepard is STILL under PARTIAL Reaper control in that section of the game so still has Dialogue choices. That section in my mind would be the TIM/Anderson scene.

You're talking about the same people who killed Shepard in ME2 just to have a tutorial, right? One would think that something as important as dying and being resurrected would have some sort of impact in the game. Did it? Not a single bloody iota.

Sorry, I was quoting from memory, but that's what I meant when talking about dialogue.

OdanUrr, what are you talking about? Shepard dying and reborn didn't have any impact on the game later on? What about lots of storyline with his special implants and  being half organic/half synthetic?

[Trebor1969]

Valentia X wrote...

PR, people. Stop grasping at straws. We're not going to know s--t until the EC comes out, stop taking vague tweets out of context to prove or disprove.

Agreed,

Once we've seen this EC we can either (1) Apologize or (2) organize a 'Game Stop Weekend Operation' of our own
or (3) continue buying ...

Here are you 3 choices !!

• Paragon option
• Renegade option
• Increase Harpagon (pls check on wiki) option (for BW/EA)

[phat0817]

OP to answer your question why he won't is simply no matter what answer he gives it will cause pandemonium threw out the web better to say nothing and let the EC do it for them...

[shepskisaac]

The Angry One wrote...

They were just repurposed for use with the TIM scene.

Which is indoctrination. Shep is under control. Player-controlled gameplay mechanic was removed, everything else stays. Dark veins are cluttering the screen, whispers are there, Shep is under control and forced to shot Anderson.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 27 avril 2012 - 06:02 .

[DTKT]

SauliusL wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

Parabolee77 wrote...

Come on, think about that logically. You think they were experimenting with a Gameplay section where Shepard was under Reaper control but WAS NOT an intentional part of the story? And as late as November 2011. Mere months from release? That makes very little sense. Anything as important as Shepard being under Reaper control HAD to have intentional story tied to it. That's not a throw away gameplay section.

And it wasn't because it "was incompatible with dialogue", which makes it sound as if the recorded dialogue didn't match the idea. But because (and this is a direct quote) "the gameplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices". That's VERY different to how you stated it. It was dropped becasue they could not reconsile Shepard being under FULL control and having CHOICES. I read that to mean (and I admit this is mere speculation) that Shepard is STILL under PARTIAL Reaper control in that section of the game so still has Dialogue choices. That section in my mind would be the TIM/Anderson scene.

You're talking about the same people who killed Shepard in ME2 just to have a tutorial, right? One would think that something as important as dying and being resurrected would have some sort of impact in the game. Did it? Not a single bloody iota.

Sorry, I was quoting from memory, but that's what I meant when talking about dialogue.

OdanUrr, what are you talking about? Shepard dying and reborn didn't have any impact on the game later on? What about lots of storyline with his special implants and  being half organic/half synthetic?

There was very little impact from a story sense. It just allowed them to create a 2 years break between ME1 and ME2 and force the player into fighting with Cerberus. It's purely a storytelling device and they don't commit to it anywhere else. In fact, if you think about it, everyone is pretty unphased about Shepard coming back to life.

And really, there is such a thing as digging too much into stuff.
http://media.moronai...A7E7C63A9-1.jpg 

Modifié par DTKT, 27 avril 2012 - 06:04 .

[Makrys]

The Angry One wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Call the TIM scene what you like, but it's not indoctrination.

The files/assets (like the dark veins effect) have "indoctrination" in their names.

Unsurprising, since the original sequence was going to have Shepard struggling with indoctrination, which they were trying to implement for a good long time into the actual game, meaning assets were made for it.
They were just repurposed for use with the TIM scene.

Really? You call us grasping at straws? That is REALLY grasping at straws. Or maybe Bioware intentionally named the files that for a reason... oh I don't know, because it actually is a scene of indoctrination. Makes more sense than the 'well maybe they just forgot to rename them' argument.

Modifié par Makrys, 27 avril 2012 - 06:05 .

[The Angry One]

Ieldra2 wrote...

ShepnTali wrote...
Stop bashing ITers. There is some evidence, and Final Hours shows the idea was dabbled with. It's not without some merit. I sometimes wonder if there's jealousy of other users creative thinking.

I'm bashing ITists because they want to turn the choices I prefer (both of them) into a "you lose" button, and I won't stop saying they're hypocrites for depriving me of my choice while saying theirs don't matter. "Destroy is the only option" is an opinion based on ideology, not on what's actually in the game, and implementing anything of the kind would destroy roleplaying for everyone else.

So yes, I WILL continue to bash ITists unless they go back on "Destroy is the only option [where you win]". That's trying to enshrine one choice as canonical.

Any story that follows on from IT would potentially allow similar choices after it anyway, as far as control goes anyway.
Synthesis? The hell with synthesis. If you're upset because you don't get to play eugenics with the entire galaxy (that is, if we assumed the IT was valid which it isn't), well. Get over it.

Modifié par The Angry One, 27 avril 2012 - 06:07 .

[The Angry One]

IsaacShep wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

They were just repurposed for use with the TIM scene.

Which is indoctrination. Shep is under control. Player-controlled gameplay mechanic was removed, everything else stays. Dark veins are cluttering the screen, whispers are there, Shep is under control and forced to shot Anderson.

That is not indoctrination. Indoctrination does not involve motor control while the mind is untouched. That is in fact the exact opposite of indoctrination.
I'm reasoning that BioWare are in fact not that stupidly unaware of their own lore and merely reused assets that were intended for an indoctrination scene. But if you want to say they are, fine. Whatever.

Modifié par The Angry One, 27 avril 2012 - 06:06 .

[Makrys]

Ieldra2 wrote...

ShepnTali wrote...
Stop bashing ITers. There is some evidence, and Final Hours shows the idea was dabbled with. It's not without some merit. I sometimes wonder if there's jealousy of other users creative thinking.

I'm bashing ITists because they want to turn the choices I prefer (both of them) into a "you lose" button, and I won't stop saying they're hypocrites for depriving me of my choice while saying theirs don't matter. "Destroy is the only option" is an opinion based on ideology, not on what's actually in the game, and implementing anything of the kind would destroy roleplaying for everyone else.

So yes, I WILL continue to bash ITists unless they go back on "Destroy is the only option [where you win]". That's trying to enshrine one choice as canonical.

Apart from that, I'm not totally opposed to the idea that the starchild sequence isn't real, though it makes no sense that the "dream" starts before that.

Its not about 'choices' in this matter. Its about breaking free of indoctrination. You either break free or you don't. Can't have 3 choices. You have two. Destroy (this is just ONE take on the IT) would imply Shepard breaking free and then the game (with the EC) would continue on from there with you actually making choices to decide how everything ends. So its not like the IT leaves you with no choice. The choices just come after breaking free of Harbinger's hold. Do more research before you get so into bashing people. Since apparently you enjoy that type of thing.

[Unschuld]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Gods, can no minute go by without this abomination coming up. Why can't the thrice-damned IT just die...

Thrice damned? Haha care to share when? All these people saying the IT is dead are kinda just full of it and they're kind of just as much wishful thinkers as the IT believers are.....

Bioware has NOT DENIED the indoctrination theory.....therefore its not dead......period...end of story.....until it is denied, its still a possibility....that's just simple logical facts

It's like herpes; even when you think it's gone, it always comes back. Only when this herpes is the kind that brings some positivity to the forums, I'd consider it a beneficial symbiosis.

Modifié par Unschuld, 27 avril 2012 - 06:08 .

[aj2070]

The Angry One wrote...

Instructions from their PR department. Keep people guessing.

+1 This.

You know, The Angry One, I think we think a lot alike. 

I am frankly over cryptic tweets, facebook posts, whatever with smiley faces.

Modifié par aj2070, 27 avril 2012 - 06:11 .

[Cadeym]

IsaacShep wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

They were just repurposed for use with the TIM scene.

Which is indoctrination. Shep is under control. Player-controlled gameplay mechanic was removed, everything else stays. Dark veins are cluttering the screen, whispers are there, Shep is under control and forced to shot Anderson.

Please explain how reaper indoctrination works... because I don't think it involves taking control of a persons body while that person still has the capacity to form their own opinion.

[OdanUrr]

SauliusL wrote...

OdanUrr, what are you talking about? Shepard dying and reborn didn't have any impact on the game later on? What about lots of storyline with his special implants and  being half organic/half synthetic?

Let's say you or me dies and is resurrected. Wouldn't you find it odd? Wouldn't you question how come you're alive now? Maybe you're a clone? If so, is it really you or somebody else who merely thinks it's you? Why would anyone go to the trouble of bringing you back? Back to Shepard, why would Cerberus of all people? Shepard now finds he's also synthetic. No eerie thoughts on Saren's description of the "perfect" organic/synthetic being? Are you more machine than man? Can you actually feel or love? What does it mean to be human? What does it mean to be alive? Do you have a soul?

These are some of the questions I can come up with. Does Shepard ever deal with these complex issues in ME2? Nope.

[Ieldra]

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

ShepnTali wrote...
Stop bashing ITers. There is some evidence, and Final Hours shows the idea was dabbled with. It's not without some merit. I sometimes wonder if there's jealousy of other users creative thinking.

I'm bashing ITists because they want to turn the choices I prefer (both of them) into a "you lose" button, and I won't stop saying they're hypocrites for depriving me of my choice while saying theirs don't matter. "Destroy is the only option" is an opinion based on ideology, not on what's actually in the game, and implementing anything of the kind would destroy roleplaying for everyone else.

So yes, I WILL continue to bash ITists unless they go back on "Destroy is the only option [where you win]". That's trying to enshrine one choice as canonical.

Any story that follows on from IT would potentially allow similar choices after it anyway, as far as control goes anyway.
Synthesis? The hell with synthesis. If you're upset because you don't get to play eugenics with the entire galaxy, well. Get over it.

You know, I'm fine with the primary effects of all three choices, and if people like you didn't shove "Destroy is the only option" into my face all the time I would actually debate its merits just as I debate the merits of the others.

But how would you react if I started to spout "Destroy and Control are totally irreal. Synthesis is the only choice that matters" every chance I get, and actually lobbied to remove your favorite choice from the game as a viable option to win? I can't believe people are acting like this, I can't believe they don't see the hypocrisy. I don't think anything has managed to worsen my opinion of the fanbase as much as this. 

[Elite Midget]

Because they want you to hold false hope and hope you will be too tired to rage by the time EC is released.

[Unschuld]

[quote]IsaacShep wrote...

[quote]The Angry One wrote...

Call the TIM scene what you like, but it's not indoctrination.[/quote]The files/assets (like the dark veins effect) have "indoctrination" in their names.[/quote]
[/quote]

"Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind. "

TIM possibly being used as a Harby indoc antenna? Hmm?

Modifié par Unschuld, 27 avril 2012 - 06:13 .

[Makrys]

Unschuld wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Call the TIM scene what you like, but it's not indoctrination.

The files/assets (like the dark veins effect) have "indoctrination" in their names.

"Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind. "

TIM possibly being used as a Harby indoc antenna? Hmm?

Yes. Precisely. This would also explain that once TIM kills himself, Harby doesn't have even partial control over Shepard. He has to instead trick Shepard with the Catalyst/star brat.

Modifié par Makrys, 27 avril 2012 - 06:15 .

[The Angry One]

Unschuld wrote...

"Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind. "

TIM possibly being used as a Harby indoc antenna? Hmm?

Harby piggybacking TIM to assume direct control? Then you'd have to wonder why it's so weak.
The idea that TIM by himself is assuming direct control gives me a headache.

Modifié par The Angry One, 27 avril 2012 - 06:15 .

[AlienSpaceBats]

I'm fairly certain certain indoc elements were already in place or are being implemented into the EC.

[StElmo]

Makrys wrote...

 A couple days ago a fan tweeted this to Patrick Weekes: "Can you answer if EC DLC will answer the question if indoc theory is true or not?"

His response? "Sorry -- any answer I give here tells people way too much. :)"

I know whenever we talk about it its always just speculation but... I don't get it. When he gets a question that is simply asking if the EC will either conform or deny the IT, HE CAN'T EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE THAT! If the IT isn't true why doesn't Weekes just say, "Look guys, the IT was a brillian theory but its just not apart of our plans. Anything further I can't say". Then bam! He would stop getting annoying tweets from frustrated fans asking him about it. But no. Bioware continues to dodge talking about, never denies, and always makes it sound like it could be true. But if it isn't, JUST SAY SO! What's the point of making us continue to think it IS true if they then come out and say it isn't with the EC? A lot of people would be pissed.

Why? Simply because, I believe the IT is indeed true. In some way, at least. And because of that, Bioware will neither confirm nor deny its existance. Usually when you know a secret and someone asks you if the secret is true, you don't say "Yeah its true!". And you sure as hell wouldn't lie, but you would instead just politely ignore and keep repeating "I guess you'll just have to wait and see". Thereby continuing to build the anticipation.

Discuss.

IN that single line, I think patrick weekes may have saved the game! Lets hope so. GOD thankyou OP, you are a legend for retweeting. Link?

[The Angry One]

Ieldra2 wrote...

You know, I'm fine with the primary effects of all three choices, and if people like you didn't shove "Destroy is the only option" into my face all the time I would actually debate its merits just as I debate the merits of the others.

People like me? I'm not an IT theorist. I just don't find the idea particularily bad either, compared to what we got.

But how would you react if I started to spout "Destroy and Control are totally irreal. Synthesis is the only choice that matters" every chance I get, and actually lobbied to remove your favorite choice from the game as a viable option to win? I can't believe people are acting like this, I can't believe they don't see the hypocrisy. I don't think anything has managed to worsen my opinion of the fanbase as much as this. 

Have you ever thought that if synthesis and to a lesser extent control weren't so blatantly pro-Reaper, people wouldn't come to think this? 
Yeah turn everyone into a Reaper (don't say it isn't, developer notes from leaked scripts call it "becoming one with the Reapers")! Nothing can go wrong with this plan!

[TheLostGenius]

Thats a good response for keeping everyone excited and interested in the game.

[SauliusL]

OdanUrr wrote...

SauliusL wrote...

OdanUrr, what are you talking about? Shepard dying and reborn didn't have any impact on the game later on? What about lots of storyline with his special implants and  being half organic/half synthetic?

Let's say you or me dies and is resurrected. Wouldn't you find it odd? Wouldn't you question how come you're alive now? Maybe you're a clone? If so, is it really you or somebody else who merely thinks it's you? Why would anyone go to the trouble of bringing you back? Back to Shepard, why would Cerberus of all people? Shepard now finds he's also synthetic. No eerie thoughts on Saren's description of the "perfect" organic/synthetic being? Are you more machine than man? Can you actually feel or love? What does it mean to be human? What does it mean to be alive? Do you have a soul?

These are some of the questions I can come up with. Does Shepard ever deal with these complex issues in ME2? Nope.

He deals with these complex issues in Cerberus base at the end of Mass effect 3, when watching video logs. Did you see them?