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What would happen the Darkspawn fulfilled their destiny?


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#26
Silfren

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The Xand wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We have examples of ghouls who have lived as ghouls for years, so I don't see how I'm wrong in pointing out that we have examples of ghouls who don't expire after a few months. Ruck , for example, ate darkspawn flesh for five years.


Five years does not an eternity make.

On top of which you only have one dubious example, and it's dubious because nowhere does it state that he was a darkspawn for five full years. He could have survived as a human for four and a half and only recently turned into a ghoul. Which is the more likely scenario since official sources tell us that ghouls don't live very long.


What are these official sources? The uncited wiki statement ain't it, and it's the only mention I've found on the subject.  Moreover, unless the Devs have acknowledged these counter examples and addressed them, they can't be ignored. 

#27
The Xand

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Silfren wrote...
What are these official sources? The uncited wiki statement ain't it, and it's the only mention I've found on the subject.  Moreover, unless the Devs have acknowledged these counter examples and addressed them, they can't be ignored. 


Love how you're calling me up on official sources when I'm the only one that has provided any. Ghouls *aren't* immortal and they *aren't* darkspawn and the only examples of long lived ghouls were former Grey Wardens.
Obviously they would live longer than normal ghouls, since it takes them 30 years to even turn into ghouls. It's really very simple logic and I can't explain it any simpler than that. Anyone care to provide me evidence otherwise? Ohwait. Case closed, I win.

Modifié par The Xand, 14 octobre 2013 - 05:44 .


#28
Silfren

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The Xand wrote...

Silfren wrote...
What are these official sources? The uncited wiki statement ain't it, and it's the only mention I've found on the subject.  Moreover, unless the Devs have acknowledged these counter examples and addressed them, they can't be ignored. 


Love how you're calling me up on official sources when I'm the only one that has provided any. Ghouls *aren't* immortal and they *aren't* darkspawn and the only examples of long lived ghouls were former Grey Wardens.
Obviously they would live longer than normal ghouls, since it takes them 30 years to even turn into ghouls. It's really very simple logic and I can't explain it any simpler than that. Anyone care to provide me evidence otherwise? Ohwait. Case closed, I win.


Try again.  You've made claims, but you haven't cited a damned thing. NOWHERE in this thread have you provided an actual cite. The ONLY thing I came across in my own search is the da wiki that reflects your wording about ghouls living for a few months.  But...AGAIN...that wikie entry is NOT CITED.  It even says, on that page, in reference to the statement mentioned "citation needed." 

Modifié par Silfren, 14 octobre 2013 - 06:45 .


#29
The Xand

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Silfren wrote...

Try again.  You've made claims, but you haven't cited a damned thing. NOWHERE in this thread have you provided an actual cite. The ONLY thing I came across in my own search is the da wiki that reflects your wording about ghouls living for a few months.  But...AGAIN...that wikie entry is NOT CITED.  It even says, on that page, in reference to the statement mentioned "citation needed." 


My claims aren't so much claims as repetition of official source material lol. Let's go over the points again shall we?

Ghouls aren't immortal.

Ghouls don't live for very long.

Ghouls don't turn into darkspawn.

Now some official quotes to back that up.

From the Codex;

"Fortunately, ghouls rarely survive their corruption for long. "

And a direct quote from David Gaider;

"No, they don't turn into darkspawn."

http://social.biowar...77&lf=8#3164842

Got anything to contradict that aside from Grey Warden ghouls? No? Kay then. :)

Modifié par The Xand, 14 octobre 2013 - 06:56 .


#30
Silfren

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The Xand wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Try again.  You've made claims, but you haven't cited a damned thing. NOWHERE in this thread have you provided an actual cite. The ONLY thing I came across in my own search is the da wiki that reflects your wording about ghouls living for a few months.  But...AGAIN...that wikie entry is NOT CITED.  It even says, on that page, in reference to the statement mentioned "citation needed." 


My claims aren't so much claims as repetition of official source material lol. Let's go over the points again shall we?

Ghouls aren't immortal.

Ghouls don't live for very long.

Ghouls don't turn into darkspawn.

Now some official quotes to back that up.

From the Codex;

"Fortunately, ghouls rarely survive their corruption for long. "

And a direct quote from David Gaider;

"No, they don't turn into darkspawn."

http://social.biowar...77&lf=8#3164842

Got anything to contradict that aside from Grey Warden ghouls? No? Kay then. :)


There's no need to be a smart ass about it.  When you make a statement, even if you think you're just repeating official source material, you ought to be able to point to the scene or codex or dialogue you are getting it from, if in-game, and the Dev comment, if external to the game lore itself.  There's nothing at all unreasonable about my wanting you to specify where you were getting your info.  Simply going "it's official source material!" as if that's all I need to know, doesn't cut it.  You finally accepted this and pointed to a Dev comment clarifying the matter, so thank you.  It wasn't so hard, was it?  LOL

#31
The Xand

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I do apologise.

#32
LobselVith8

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The Xand wrote...

Silfren wrote...
What are these official sources? The uncited wiki statement ain't it, and it's the only mention I've found on the subject.  Moreover, unless the Devs have acknowledged these counter examples and addressed them, they can't be ignored.  


Love how you're calling me up on official sources when I'm the only one that has provided any. Ghouls *aren't* immortal and they *aren't* darkspawn and the only examples of long lived ghouls were former Grey Wardens.
Obviously they would live longer than normal ghouls, since it takes them 30 years to even turn into ghouls. It's really very simple logic and I can't explain it any simpler than that. Anyone care to provide me evidence otherwise? Ohwait. Case closed, I win. 


I said the developers addressed that Broodmothers are technically ghouls, and that we have examples of ghouls who have lived for more than a few months, like Tamlen, Ruck, and Utha. Avernus' manipulation of the taint (per his codex entry entitled 'Avernus' notes') address how his longevity is due to the manipulation of his taint.

#33
The Xand

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LobselVith8 wrote...

I said the developers addressed that Broodmothers are technically ghouls, and that we have examples of ghouls who have lived for more than a few months, like Tamlen, Ruck, and Utha. Avernus' manipulation of the taint (per his codex entry entitled 'Avernus' notes') address how his longevity is due to the manipulation of his taint.


Except you don't actually know how long any of those characters were ghouls for, with the exception of Utha, who is a Grey Warden and thus not a regular ghoul. Avernus lived for so long because of blood magic.

I should thank you for mentioning his Codex entry however, since it provides even more official proof that ghouls don't live that long.

"Unfortunately, this corruption will eventually overwhelm the Warden; over time, it devours both mind and body, leaving nothing."

http://dragonage.wik...Avernus's_Notes

Your turn to provide sources that expressly state how long those characters were ghouls for.

#34
LobselVith8

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The Xand wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I said the developers addressed that Broodmothers are technically ghouls, and that we have examples of ghouls who have lived for more than a few months, like Tamlen, Ruck, and Utha. Avernus' manipulation of the taint (per his codex entry entitled 'Avernus' notes') address how his longevity is due to the manipulation of his taint.


Except you don't actually know how long any of those characters were ghouls for, with the exception of Utha, who is a Grey Warden and thus not a regular ghoul. Avernus lived for so long because of blood magic.


You keep claiming that ghouls don't live that long even though we have multiple examples of ghouls who do live that long. I don't see what the point is. Are you expecting me to take a single line from a passage in the ghoul codex entry over the multiple examples of ghouls who demonstrate longevity?

The Dalish protagonist, Mahariel, and Tamlen both contract the taint during the Dalish Origin, and Wynne's dialogue to the mage protagonist explicitly notes that almost a year has passed since the events of Ostagar and the latter part of the Fifth Blight, and we later encounter Tamlen as a ghoul.  

Ruck has been forced to eat darkspawn flesh for years. When The Warden asks Ruck how he survived for so long in the Deep Roads, he explains that he ate their flesh, and the darkspawn didn't pay any attention to him because of that. Ruck even heard the "Dark Master" awakening, and his Song.

The Xand wrote...

I should thank you for mentioning his Codex entry however, since it provides even more official proof that ghouls don't live that long.

"Unfortunately, this corruption will eventually overwhelm the Warden; over time, it devours both mind and body, leaving nothing."

http://dragonage.wik...Avernus's_Notes


The taint turns a Grey Warden into a ghoul. I don't see anything in his statement that says that ghouls only live for a short period of time. Avernus' line in that passage also notes how he used his magic to slow down the effects of the taint.

The Xand wrote...

Your turn to provide sources that expressly state how long those characters were ghouls for. 


When there are ghouls who have lived for much longer than a short period of time, I don't see what I need to prove. Especially when Utha has been a ghoul for two decades, and Ruck has eaten darkspawn flesh for five years.

#35
Xilizhra

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Larius was some sort of ghoul-like Warden who'd been alive for quite a long time as well.

#36
The Xand

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LobselVith8 wrote...

You keep claiming that ghouls don't live that long even though we have multiple examples of ghouls who do live that long. I don't see what the point is. Are you expecting me to take a single line from a passage in the ghoul codex entry over the multiple examples of ghouls who demonstrate longevity?


The multiple examples of Grey Warden ghouls, and people who only recently turned into ghouls you mean? Oh my.


LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish protagonist, Mahariel, and Tamlen both contract the taint during the Dalish Origin, and Wynne's dialogue to the mage protagonist explicitly notes that almost a year has passed since the events of Ostagar and the latter part of the Fifth Blight, and we later encounter Tamlen as a ghoul. 


Almost a year is still only a few months and thus not a very long time, and Tamlen is virtually dead when you encounter him.


LobselVith8 wrote...

Ruck has been forced to eat darkspawn flesh for years.



A couple of years *isn't* a long time. You haven't provided any evidence of ghouls that live longer than a year or two.

Think of the taint as a form of cancer, and then look to those stricken with fatal cancer in the real world and their life expectancies as an example.

On top of which you still haven't proved he was a ghoul for years and hadn't recently resorted to eating darkspawn flesh to survive.

LobselVith8 wrote...

The taint turns a Grey Warden into a ghoul. I don't see anything in his statement that says that ghouls only live for a short period of time. Avernus' line in that passage also notes how he used his magic to slow down the effects of the taint.

When there are ghouls who have lived for much longer than a short period of time, I don't see what I need to prove.


You could try actually citing some sources and providing real evidence  other than assuming that ghouls other than Grey Wardens live for long  periods of time. Because the official sources claim that ghouls don't  live long, and I've seen nothing contrary to that. The only exceptions  are Grey Warden ghouls, and the longest living of those used blood magic to prolong his life.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Especially when Utha has been a ghoul for two decades, and Ruck has eaten darkspawn flesh for five years.


Pretty bold statement given you've provided zero evidence of that. I say that Ruck survived for years before only recently having turned into a ghoul, as supported by the official sources which claim that ghouls don't live long. And Utha's a Grey Warden, REMEMBER. Do you remember what I said about Wardens and how it takes them 30 years to even turn into ghouls? Lol, remember? Do you remember that bit?

So um yes. My point still stands and you're still wrong. Ghouls don't live for long and certainly aren't immortal as you so falsely claimed :)

Modifié par The Xand, 15 octobre 2013 - 01:39 .


#37
The Xand

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So to recap;

Ghouls don't live long.

Ghouls aren't immortal.

Grey Wardens take 30 years to even turn into ghouls, so obviously will live longer than regular ghouls.

A couple of years isn't a long time, and there's no evidence of any non Grey Warden ghouls living beyond that.

Proof;


"Unfortunately, this corruption will eventually overwhelm the Warden; over time, it devours both mind and body, leaving nothing."

http://dragonage.wik...Avernus's_Notes

"Fortunately, ghouls rarely survive their corruption for long."

http://dragonage.wik...ex_entry:_Ghoul

It might take anywhere between a few months or a few years, but it *will* kill the ghoul in time. Longer if it's a Warden.

Modifié par The Xand, 15 octobre 2013 - 01:46 .


#38
LobselVith8

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Ruck explains that he survived for so long because he ate darkspawn flesh, when The Warden asks how he survived in the Deep Roads for all these years. And he even heard the awakening of the Archdemon, which happened some time before The Warden's exploits across Ferelden.

Also, Utha became a ghoul over two decades prior to the events in Amaranthine.

So I'm still not seeing how ghouls only live for a short period of time, like you claimed on the previous page. Your conjecture on Grey Warden ghouls aside, all you have is a single codex that is contradicted by multiple ghouls. Avernus' note doesn't even say that ghouls only live for a short period of time; it's saying the corruption overtakes the person.

And I'm starting to see this discussion is going nowhere, because I put more emphasis on the story than I do in a single codex entry.

#39
The Xand

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Yawn. You're just repeating yourself here and not taking anything onboard.

Point 1; Grey Wardens take 3 decades to even turn into ghouls, so obviously will have a longer shelf life as ghouls than regular ghouls. Your own examples prove this.

Point 2; your other examples only prove my points further, since they've survived only for a couple of years at most, and *that* isn't a long time at all.

Point 3; my *two* examples of official citations both state that ghouls have an extremely limited lifespan because the taint eventually overwhelms and kills them. It's a form of cancer that eats away at the mind and body and inevitably kills them. That's why it dramatically shortens an infected person's life.

A long way from the "immortal" ghouls you seem to think exist.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Technically, the taint turns the Wardens into ghouls, who are immortal


To jog your memory.

Modifié par The Xand, 15 octobre 2013 - 03:50 .


#40
LobselVith8

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The Xand wrote...

Actually the taint drastically shortens the lifespan of those infected down to just a few months.


To jog your memory, since I'm not seeing any evidence that ghouls only live for a "few months".

#41
The Xand

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LobselVith8 wrote...

To jog your memory, since I'm not seeing any evidence that ghouls only live for a "few months".


At least I based that on what I presumed to be sourced material. And if we're going to be technical about it, a few years is still a few months.

#42
Sir Pounce-a-lot

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 It might be like it is in "The Time Machine", with the Darkspawn being the Morlocks ... and Humans, Elves, Dwarves, and Qunari being the Eloi. They would breed us to be docile, and we would be used for food and reproduction. The planet would be a wasteland. Interestingly enough, the landscape of the title screen for DAO looks very much like the landscape of the distant Morlock World (635,427,810 AD) in the 2002 movie "The Time Machine".

Modifié par Sir Pounce-a-lot, 03 novembre 2013 - 09:16 .