165 réponses à ce sujet

[lx_theo]

The Angry One wrote...

Wrong. Singularity refers to the idea that we have no concept of what an AI can achieve and can't predict it. Hence SINGULARITY.
Also, this does not guarantee conflict, nor does it guarantee that synthetic life will exterminate organic, it's all assumption based on intolerance.

No, even by what you said I am right. The intelligence and capability of it will surpass unaided organics.

And yes, it does mean it will inevitably happen. As long as their is a chance it can happen (which there is plenty if), enough time will assure it'll happen given enough time.

According to the Catalyst, this decision with singlarity is inevitable. Synthesis creates one life, eliminating the possibility of a Technological singularity.

Said one life then creates machines with AI.

...

...

...

Oops.

Cute. You obviosuly don't underdstand what the Reapers are or what their purpose is.

[The Angry One]

lx_theo wrote...

A Symbiotic realtionship is completely different than making the two things one in the same.

Hey, newsflash. THEY ARE ONE. The game shows you the extent of Saren's impants. The method is different, but the ultimate result is the same, a hybrid life form.

[Madecologist]

Note: I do not like the Synthesis ending and I think it is ethically disguisting. So what I am about to write is not in defense of it.

It literally is the diplomatic ending, you don't stop the Reapers, believe the Catalyst, and choose to accept the vision the Catalyst has about life (and thus granting a Reaper Victory really). In turn for your compliance we will retain some individuality, sine the Reapers won't uplift us to Reaper form but we will be a new type of hybrid.

In short Synthesis is reaching a compromise with the Reapers with some hefty mind bogling effect (a wave of energy that can re-right all life... won't even touch that...). But it is a compromise none the less based on believing the Catalyst's mission and utimate goal.

Modifié par Madecologist, 27 avril 2012 - 10:08 .

[M Hedonist]

Vox Draco wrote...

And I just wonder: How are people so okay with playing such a risky games by choosing control or synthesis? Both will have the reapers still around and other things are all up to speculations. Will Shep control the reapers in a good way? Will synthesis REALLY ascend the people of the galaxy into higher beings? Or will the galaxy just stagnate? You know, evolution is also progressing and adapting to nw things...

Interesting...in synthesis the Reapers are still there, and suddenly also the most powerful form of half-synthetics...should make you think twice...

"[...]combine all synthetic and organic life into a new frame work. A new Dna. [...] Synthesis is the final evolution of life."
That's everything the Catalyst tells us about 'Synthesis'. No reasonable human being would make a decision affecting all life in the galaxy forever based on that.

Modifié par Sauruz, 27 avril 2012 - 10:10 .

[Vox Draco]

o Ventus wrote...

Vox Draco wrote...

I think he refers also to the Geth talking about Genocide...

And I just wonder: How are people so okay with playing such a risky games by choosing control or synthesis? Both will have the reapers still around and other things are all up to speculations. Will Shep control the reapers in a good way? Will synthesis REALLY ascend the people of the galaxy into higher beings? Or will the galaxy just stagnate? You know, evolution is also progressing and adapting to nw things...

Interesting...in synthesis the Reapers are still there, and suddenly also the most powerful form of half-synthetics...should make you think twice...

Killing off the geth is morally abhorrent, yes, but damn does it make for fun opportunities with fan fiction.

Then again, killing the 300,000 batarians in Arrival was also pretty crappy.

Yes, it is. (Well, not so much for ME personally, as I am a mosnter who thinks that a couple of software-programs are not that much important compared to Shepards life and the elimination of the Reaper-threat...yeah, I should be ashamed)

The red ending, however, is by far the most sensible ending to choose for any kind of Shepard, as I see it. Synthesis and control still have the reapers around, and you cannot tell how this will turn out, for good or for bad. In red, you know the Geth and reapers will die. One is good, the other is a pity. But besides this? The galaxy is mostly as it is (ruins, I know) and can rebuild on its own terms, without higher beings interferring with them...

Play it safe, Shep, Legion will forgive you, I am sure!

[The Angry One]

lx_theo wrote...

No, even by what you said I am right. The intelligence and capability of it will surpass unaided organics.

It is assumed it will, and to what extent is not known.

And yes, it does mean it will inevitably happen. As long as their is a chance it can happen (which there is plenty if), enough time will assure it'll happen given enough time.

Ridiculous assertion.
Even if you accept conflict as inevitable, how does it follow that extermination is too?
Especially since this has never happened before the Reapers existed.

Cute. You obviosuly don't underdstand what the Reapers are or what their purpose is.

I tire of your constant inane "u no understand!" comebacks.
You on the other hand obviously don't understand. If the hybrids create machines with AI and the machines exterminate them, we're back to square one aren't we?

Modifié par The Angry One, 27 avril 2012 - 10:10 .

[o Ventus]

Sauruz wrote...

No reasonable human being would make a decision affecting all life in the galaxy forever based on that.

One can assume Shepard's intelligence dropped a few pegs while being horrible burnt by Harbinger's beam.

[lx_theo]

The Angry One wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

A Symbiotic realtionship is completely different than making the two things one in the same.

Hey, newsflash. THEY ARE ONE. The game shows you the extent of Saren's impants. The method is different, but the ultimate result is the same, a hybrid life form.

No, its nothing of the same.

Defintion of Symbiosis

A close, prolonged association between two or more different organisms of different species that may, but does not necessarily, benefit each member.

Synthesis eliminates the differences between the two. Symbiosis requires the distinctions to stay.

[DJBare]

lx_theo wrote...
Silly me and my different opinions. Shame on me for not conforming.

But no problem forcing others to conform, is that what you are saying?

[The Angry One]

lx_theo wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

A Symbiotic realtionship is completely different than making the two things one in the same.

Hey, newsflash. THEY ARE ONE. The game shows you the extent of Saren's impants. The method is different, but the ultimate result is the same, a hybrid life form.

No, its nothing of the same.

Synthesis eliminates the differences between the two. Symbiosis requires the distinctions to stay.

Of course you latch onto that word, it's all you have left.
It couldn't possibly be that Saren was trying to explain it as he understood it. Was his skeleton a seperate organism? His arm? His eyes? No. They were all part of the same body, functioning as one.

[o Ventus]

DJBare wrote...

lx_theo wrote...
Silly me and my different opinions. Shame on me for not conforming.

But no problem forcing others to conform, is that what you are saying?

Internet debating 101:

When other people go back on their logic, it's hypocrisy and/or a double standard.

When YOU (as in, yourself) do it, it's perfectly fine.

[Bad King]

The Angry One wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

A Symbiotic realtionship is completely different than making the two things one in the same.

Hey, newsflash. THEY ARE ONE. The game shows you the extent of Saren's impants. The method is different, but the ultimate result is the same, a hybrid life form.

No, its nothing of the same.

Synthesis eliminates the differences between the two. Symbiosis requires the distinctions to stay.

Of course you latch onto that word, it's all you have left.
It couldn't possibly be that Saren was trying to explain it as he understood it. Was his skeleton a seperate organism? His arm? His eyes? No. They were all part of the same body, functioning as one.

Actually, the implants are pretty much a seperate organism. Saren is in a constant conflict with the implants over control of his own mind at the end of the game. The synthetic side is vying for dominance over the organic side. The division between organic and synthetic still remains. By the end of the game, the synthetic side has total dominance and Saren becomes a fully synthetic creature controlled by Sovereign. The organic Saren is gone by that time.

[DJBare]

o Ventus wrote...

DJBare wrote...

lx_theo wrote...
Silly me and my different opinions. Shame on me for not conforming.

But no problem forcing others to conform, is that what you are saying?

Internet debating 101:

When other people go back on their logic, it's hypocrisy and/or a double standard.

When YOU (as in, yourself) do it, it's perfectly fine.

Yup, I'm just requesting he clarify his position, synthesis is conformity, Shepard by choosing synthesis is forcing conformity.

[lx_theo]

The Angry One wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

No, even by what you said I am right. The intelligence and capability of it will surpass unaided organics.

It is assumed it will, and to what extent is not known.

The ability to surpass significantly is all that matters. In the ME universe, it is shown that a fully realized AI is much superior to an organic. Look at how the Geth Quarian War ends if you only side with the Geth.

And yes, it does mean it will inevitably happen. As long as their is a chance it can happen (which there is plenty if), enough time will assure it'll happen given enough time.

Ridiculous assertion.
Even if you accept conflict as inevitable, how does it follow that extermination is too?
Especially since this has never happened before the Reapers existed.

It is inevitable. Eventually some synthetic somewhere would have the bright idea thatorganics don't serve a purpose anywhere, and be ablt to have the influence to follow through, whether it is a part of a war or just arrogance. It will happen, given enough time.

And no proof of it not happening before the Reapers. I'll even throw you a few possibilities of how the conclusion counter the effect of singularity I've discussed could come about...

It could have been a counter argument to a group who was going ahead to do the exterminatio. The Reapers were the compromising solution (Obviously Synthetics don't see Organics life each of its own as important in the situations, so preservation via the Reapers is logical enough for them to go to).

It could have been a civilation that rose that looked back on Organic extermination and decided to make sure it never happens again (new organic life would eventually come about).

It could have been a calculated prediction. Mind you, I tend to trust my calculator.

Cute. You obviosuly don't underdstand what the Reapers are or what their purpose is.

I tire of your constant inane "u no understand!" comebacks.
You on the other hand obviously don't understand. If the hybrids create machines with AI and the machines exterminate them, we're back to square one aren't we?

No, we wouldn't be at all.

Modifié par lx_theo, 27 avril 2012 - 10:19 .

[razor150]

nuculerman wrote...

Vox Draco wrote...

You nkow what is funny? When Shepard ask "will there be peace" concerning the Synthesis...all the kid says is "the cycle will end"

Avoiding something there, Mr. Catalyst? It is so sad Shepard is not allowed by Bioware to dig deeper into the choices and what they might REALLY mean...

Because there won't be.  Which is your queue synthesis isn't the euthanization all anti-synthesis-ers claim it is.  Races retain their unique culture.  Individuals retain their free will.  Krogans still hate Salarians, and Batarians still hate Humans.  Life continues exactly as it would have, except there's no need to create AI's because the pinnacle of evolution has already been reached.  No AI's means no end to all organic life.

Given Bioware's responses, this is clearly the intention of the synthesis ending.  It was terribly explained, and anyone who didn't pick it is totally justified, but the assumptions about what it means, how everyone will be Reapers now, etc are clearly totally wrong.  It's Bioware's IP, and their intention, hind sight being 20/20, is pretty clear at this point.

Once again.  The ending was handled terribly.  It wasn't clear what you were signing up for in any of the choices.  Bioware dropped the ball.  /thread.

Except in their own script Bioware calls synthesis joining the Reapers. 

[The Angry One]

Bad King wrote...

Actually, the implants are pretty much a seperate organism. Saren is in a constant conflict with the implants over control of his own mind at the end of the game. The synthetic side is vying for dominance over the organic side. The division between organic and synthetic still remains. By the end of the game, the synthetic side has total dominance and Saren becomes a fully synthetic creature controlled by Sovereign. The organic Saren is gone by that time.

You're kidding, right? Indoctrination specifically affects organic minds, and this is what Saren was battling against. He was dedicating huge parts of his base to researching this.
The implants would have allowed Sovereign an easier time by directly exposing Saren's mind to Reaper tech constantly, but that's it.

[lx_theo]

DJBare wrote...

lx_theo wrote...
Silly me and my different opinions. Shame on me for not conforming.

But no problem forcing others to conform, is that what you are saying?

I'm not forcing anything. I'm explaining my point of view in order to counter the attacks against my morality that happen because people reject any interpretation in favor of synthesis.

Then again, I know you're not one to change hands when attacking people for thier ideas, so I'll leave it at that.

[razor150]

lx_theo wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

Oh, of course, peace is eternal. I forgot that stupid people can think that. I don't agree with its previous method either. But it makes sense for a being like itself to see individual life as meaningless enough that perserving the species through harvesting being a better option than before.

And putting evolution in a statement does;'t make them the same. The Catalyst obviously meant that Synthesis creates a type of life better than organic or synthesis.

Silly me and my different opinions. Shame on me for not conforming.

How does synthesis guarantee peace then? It doesn't. The Catalyst assumes it does, because it is racist. It thinks all the problems in the universe stems from organics and synthetics being different.

It doesn't. When you ask the Catalyst if there will be peace, he avoids the question and says the cycle will end. He obviously know it won't assure peace, or that everyone will accept the new fate. What he does know is that it eliminates the need for the cycle because it eliminates the issue of the technological singularity (which is a very real problem)

A real problem where? Have I missed a machine uprising somewhere? It is a theoretical problem that nobody has anyway of knowing whether or not it is true. 

[lx_theo]

The Angry One wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Actually, the implants are pretty much a seperate organism. Saren is in a constant conflict with the implants over control of his own mind at the end of the game. The synthetic side is vying for dominance over the organic side. The division between organic and synthetic still remains. By the end of the game, the synthetic side has total dominance and Saren becomes a fully synthetic creature controlled by Sovereign. The organic Saren is gone by that time.

You're kidding, right? Indoctrination specifically affects organic minds, and this is what Saren was battling against. He was dedicating huge parts of his base to researching this.
The implants would have allowed Sovereign an easier time by directly exposing Saren's mind to Reaper tech constantly, but that's it.

You remember the last boss fight? Where the implant/synthetic parts attack you adn all the organic parts of him had died off?

[Bad King]

The Angry One wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Actually, the implants are pretty much a seperate organism. Saren is in a constant conflict with the implants over control of his own mind at the end of the game. The synthetic side is vying for dominance over the organic side. The division between organic and synthetic still remains. By the end of the game, the synthetic side has total dominance and Saren becomes a fully synthetic creature controlled by Sovereign. The organic Saren is gone by that time.

You're kidding, right? Indoctrination specifically affects organic minds, and this is what Saren was battling against. He was dedicating huge parts of his base to researching this.
The implants would have allowed Sovereign an easier time by directly exposing Saren's mind to Reaper tech constantly, but that's it.

Exactly. The synthetic implants are allowing Sovereign complete control over Saren's organic mind. The boundaries still exist between organic and synthetic with one side assuming control of the other. In time Saren's mind would have rotted away leaving nothing but synthetic parts. With the bullet in his head, the organic side dies prematurely leaving only the synthetic part at the end (a husk).

With synthesis no such boundary exists and neither side can dominate the other as the sides no longer exist.

[The Angry One]

lx_theo wrote...

The ability to surpass significantly is all that matters. In the ME universe, it is shown that a fully realized AI is much superior to an organic. Look at how the Geth Quarian War ends if you only side with the Geth.

The Geth with upgraded Reaper code. Against a ragtag fleet which had previously kicked their ass.

And yeah, these same Geth who occupied Rannoch for 300 years and wouldn't even kill the birds.
Extermination of all organic life my ass.

It is inevitable. Eventually some synthetic somewhere would have the bright idea thatorganics don't serve a purpose anywhere, and be ablt to have the influence to follow through, whether it is a part of a war or just arrogance. It will happen, given enough time.

Given enough time, humans could blow up the universe. So lets kill all humans to be sure.
I've explained many times why the infinite time argument is a fallacy.

And no proof of it not happening before the Reapers. I'll even throw you a few possibilities of how the conclusion counter the effect of singularity I've discussed could come about...

It could have been a counter argument to a group who was going ahead to do the exterminatio. The Reapers were the compromising solution (Obviously Synthetics don't see Organics life each of its own as important in the situations, so preservation via the Reapers is logical enough for them to go to).

Then that'd be proof of AIs deciding not to exterminate all organic life..

It could have been a civilation that rose that looked back on Organic extermination and decided to make sure it never happens again (new organic life would eventually come about).

If organics were exterminated before, how are we here now?

It could have been a calculated prediction. Mind you, I tend to trust my calculator.

A prediction based on intolerance.

No, we wouldn't be at all.

Alright.

Organic creates machine.
Machine has AI.
AI machine wipes out organics.

...

Hybrid creates machine.
Machine has AI.
AI machine wipes out hybrids.

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?

[lx_theo]

DJBare wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

DJBare wrote...

lx_theo wrote...
Silly me and my different opinions. Shame on me for not conforming.

But no problem forcing others to conform, is that what you are saying?

Internet debating 101:

When other people go back on their logic, it's hypocrisy and/or a double standard.

When YOU (as in, yourself) do it, it's perfectly fine.

Yup, I'm just requesting he clarify his position, synthesis is conformity, Shepard by choosing synthesis is forcing conformity.

oh, lol. That silly argument again. 

The thing is that it may be not optional, it really is the only bad thing about the option in my mind. Which is much better than Genocide or Mass Enslavement in my mind. 

[The Angry One]

lx_theo wrote...

You remember the last boss fight? Where the implant/synthetic parts attack you adn all the organic parts of him had died off?

Sovereign assumed direct control. Problem?

[DJBare]

lx_theo wrote...
I'm not forcing anything. I'm explaining my point of view in order to counter the attacks against my morality that happen because people reject any interpretation in favor of synthesis.

Then again, I know you're not one to change hands when attacking people for thier ideas, so I'll leave it at that.

I'm not attacking, I'm curious, you bought up the subject of conformity indicating that you should not have to conform, I assume this is correct? because it's a statement I actually agree with.

Modifié par DJBare, 27 avril 2012 - 10:28 .

[The Angry One]

Bad King wrote...

Exactly. The synthetic implants are allowing Sovereign complete control over Saren's organic mind. The boundaries still exist between organic and synthetic with one side assuming control of the other. In time Saren's mind would have rotted away leaving nothing but synthetic parts. With the bullet in his head, the organic side dies prematurely leaving only the synthetic part at the end (a husk).

With synthesis no such boundary exists and neither side can dominate the other as the sides no longer exist.

What boundery? THE BODY FUNCTIONS AS ONE. The presence of the tech exposes Saren's mind to Reaper influence.
How do you know synthesis is any different in that regard? You don't.

Sovereign assumed control of Saren's body, and the process destroyed Saren's organic parts. However, nothing says the body could function without the organic mind without Sovereign.