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Another synthesis ending problem


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#151
Meltemph

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and gives Shepard the choice, because he, as a creature of both synthetic and organic construction, is the only one that is capable of making a decision that is pertinent to all living creatures in the galaxy.


But that doesnt really make a ton of sense either. The child is some form of AI, that much is clear, sicne control also controls the child, that said. Shep is only synthetic in the same way a person with all prosthetic arms and what not is part synthetic. The sum of Sheps whole though is organic in nature.

If anything, the catalyst is the equivalent to Frankenstein, a creation that went out of control and must be stopped, because the person who created him was as fundamentally flawed. Killing the AI/reapers is in effect, killing the fools who created him and by extensions them(reapers).

I think if ME did anything right, with the ending, it showed that the biggest danger to organics is infact organics.

#152
Cobra's_back

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Mr.House wrote...

ME:Shepard:I rather die then live like that. *exact quote told to Saren*
ME3: Shepard: Ok I'll jump into the beam.



I agree Mr. House it doesn't make sense does it.

#153
Cobra's_back

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Sauruz wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

lx_theo wrote...


Them talking to you and forming opinions isn't life to you? Shame.

Reapers are lovecraftian horror creatures. Even when not alive anymore they are still able to indoctrinate people and mess up their minds. From what we have gathered over the course of the trilogy, assuming peaceful coexistence with them as possible is foolish.


The Reapers are a tool. Of they can no longer serve their purpose, then I see them simply wandering off back to dark space. No need for coexistance. But also no need for genocide (of Geth as well) or enslavement.

What if somebody finds a way to take control of them again? They're monstrosities that do abominable things to organics - even after their death, without their own conscience. I'd rather just get rid off them permanently than risking anyone using them for their plans again (heck, maybe that's how the 'Catalyst' got into possession of them in the first place).


That's like saying that you'd want to wipe out organics because they can be indoctrinated and controlled as an army. Its still genocide or enslavement even for dangerous stuff.

Existence of anything allows its ability to be a threat. the argument can be used to justify taking out anything. You could get staplers banned if you made their threat seem strong enough.

The derelict reaper in ME2 shows us that the mere existence of a reaper can destroy and corrupt organics. The reapers' mere existence is a threat to every living being. They wouldn't have to be 'corrupted' to do bad, they are a source of corruption themselves, just bringing them into contact with organics can be extremely dangerous.
There's no reason to justify their existence as we never see any indication that they have some form of self-determination. If a reaper doesn't stop corrupting organics after its death, we have to assume reapers can't stop themselves from doing that.



Very good point. The Mass Effect book Retribution also stated that reapers can be beacon for the IT signal. It doesn't make sense to keep the reapers around.

#154
lx_theo

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Meltemph wrote...

And the point you made about there being a technological threshold for synthetics being silly... One of the common points of the theory is that they keep developing better and better synthetic type life until it reaches the point that organics are seen as not worthwhile even as a resource.


Huh? That doesn't make sense. A resource is a resource, unless you are arguing that the universe as well evolves to the point of never needing resources. Besides that, there is nothing to infer that synthetics will ever be like that... Unless you are talking about organic synthetics, THEN I would completely agree with you. As for inorganic synthetics, any idea that they would have a deep fascination with their creators. Outside of them being their creators, there is nothing short of a psychological head game, which ones perceptions on humanity plays the role of ones conclusions.

Its a legitimate theory. That's not to say it will happen, but not an unreasonable prediction of how events could unfold. Over enough times of repeating history, it will likely happen eventually.


It is only legitimate to those who believe or want it to be legitimate. We have nothing else to go by.


Resources aren't always viable enough to keep around.

And its a plenty viable theory. Belief of people has little to do with that.

#155
MEMANIAsama

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Man, there's a lot to read, and a lot of the multi-quotes just bled together, so I'll share my thoughts for whatever pointless purpose it servers to regurgitate what was probably already said:

- Destroy wipes out EDI & The Geth. It's the best way to be "safe", but once again what does that mean? No more AI? Outlaw on AI bans, y'know, like they talk about in Mass Effect Acension, the very thing some new upcoming organic race (Humanity) decided to screw around with because they weren't there for the whole Quarian vs. Geth thing? Eventually, somebody somewhere is going to treat the "Reapers" like some myth/legend and not an actual historical event, and eventually somebody will create an AI that decides to wipe out humanity because it's chaotic, illogical, emotional, etc. Things seem great in the short term, but you're all doomed in the future unless everyone plays by the rules (SPOILERS: NOBODY EVER OBEYS THE RULES!)

- Control forces you to control the Reapers. Nothing in this scenario really prevents the potential devastation AI may eventually have upon Humanity. In fact, Shepard him/herself might have to just rehash the Catalyst's plans and control the Reapers into wiping out the cycle, and just making everything repeat itself down the road. Once again, you've got an inevitable and doomed conclusion.

- Synthesis pretty much merges it all together, makes everyone the "same" on some genetic level. It's a diplomatic solution, a concession to prevent an otherwise hopeless future. It makes sense on some level, and it makes sense the Catalyst, who is cold and calculating and basically some sort of altruistic magic space AI trying to look out for everyone. As for Hybrids making AI, I guess, but the logic here is that the combination is so much better that Hybrids will ALWAYS be smarter than AI. That AI can never look at them as inferior, and thus logically serve their masters and/or work with them peacefully (heck, the Geth basically wanted to do that with Organics to some degree, they just didn't like to be treated as slaves/objects.)

To make any sort of ACTUAL conclusions we need more of an understanding of the Catalyst and WHY it thinks this way and WHY there can't be any other outcomes, we barely have that information available, so... it's hard to judge what the heck is what at this point. Here's hoping the expanded scenes also give us some more context for our final decision, or that a book or a comic or SOMETHING explains this plot device.

Also, from a meta-game perspective, it's obvious the Green choice is the "best"/"good" choice. The game, 90% of the time, allows you to pretty much avoid any sort of "bad" stuff from happening, and will always let you easily puss out from tough decisions, especially with Paragon/Renegade conversation options. Considering you needed all those extra war assets to even unlock the Green ending makes it obvious that it's considered the "easy way out" decision and is supposed to be a positive as opposed to a negative.

#156
feliciano2040

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ghostbusters101 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

ME:Shepard:I rather die then live like that. *exact quote told to Saren*
ME3: Shepard: Ok I'll jump into the beam.


I agree Mr. House it doesn't make sense does it.


Good lord, kill me now.

People, Saren was deluded, his speeches were indoctrinated nonsense, WE KNOW what The Reapers wanted to do, which is, destroy every organic being, the last thing they wanted to do was to unite synthetics and organics.

For the love of heaven, do Joker and EDI turn into husks after synthesis ?

#157
Cobra's_back

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ghostbusters101 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

ME:Shepard:I rather die then live like that. *exact quote told to Saren*
ME3: Shepard: Ok I'll jump into the beam.



I agree Mr. House it doesn't make sense does it.



About Saren This is in Mass Effect Wiki
“During this time, Saren made his final preparations to discover Dr. Shu Qian's artifact, and encountered Sovereign. Through the ancient Reaper, he learned the fate of the many civilizations of eons past. Instead of using Sovereign as a weapon, as he had intended, Saren made it his goal to save the races of the galaxy by aiding the Reapers, proving the worth of organics to the Reapers so that they might be spared. He believed that servitude was the logical answer, instead of instinctively fighting to the finish.
 
However, Sovereign had other plans. The more time Saren spent in service to Sovereign, the more indoctrinated he became. His free will was gradually sapped and supplanted by the desires of the Reaper, and the values of his people that Saren still believed in — that an individual's personal needs are always subordinate to the greater good of the group — were twisted so gradually that Saren remained certain he was right. Slowly, Saren became Sovereign's most powerful, and visible, agent.”
 
Before Saren was indoctrinated he had hoped that the organics could join and serve the reapers. Dr. Shu Qian was an Alliance scientist who was researching artificial intelligence. He was the one who introduced Saren to Sovereign. 
 
 http://masseffect.wi.../Saren_Arterius

Modifié par ghostbusters101, 28 avril 2012 - 02:59 .


#158
edisnooM

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feliciano2040 wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

ME:Shepard:I rather die then live like that. *exact quote told to Saren*
ME3: Shepard: Ok I'll jump into the beam.


I agree Mr. House it doesn't make sense does it.


Good lord, kill me now.

People, Saren was deluded, his speeches were indoctrinated nonsense, WE KNOW what The Reapers wanted to do, which is, destroy every organic being, the last thing they wanted to do was to unite synthetics and organics.

For the love of heaven, do Joker and EDI turn into husks after synthesis ?


Actually we don't know what happened to Joker and EDI.

That's my problem with the entire ending is we know absolutely nothing. We have the Catalyst give us some vague information and are then told to make a decision without being given any idea how it played out.

We don't know if any of the choices worked or what the effects of each choice were other than regardless of what one you make the Stargazer still tells his grandchild a story underneath a starry vista.

Until Bioware gives us some solid information it's just as viable to think Goku showed up after the Normandy scene, went Super Saiyan and fixed whatever choice you end up making so they all end positively. 

At this point every theory and speculation is equally valid until further info is given.

Edit: Fixed some spelling errors I missed.

Modifié par edisnooM, 28 avril 2012 - 05:11 .


#159
MEMANIAsama

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edisnooM wrote...

Actually we don't know what happened to Joker and EDI.


They land on some planet and become some symbollic parallel for Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden. YAY RELIGIOUS OVERTONES!

#160
greatcrusader44

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Yeah destroy ending is the only one that makes Sense since that's what we've been striving for since game 1. Synthesis is sarens hope and control is illusive mans, and we convinced them it was so stupid that they killed themselves. Another reason I think the starkid is tricking you is because the illusive man controlled Anderson and Shepard at the end which means they had to have some of those reaper nanites in them somehow, and starkid says illusive man can't control us cuz he's indoctrinated but you can, even though illusive man just showed us otherwise.

#161
edisnooM

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MEMANIAsama wrote...

edisnooM wrote...

Actually we don't know what happened to Joker and EDI.


They land on some planet and become some symbollic parallel for Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden. YAY RELIGIOUS OVERTONES!


Sorry, I meant we don't know about what Synthesis did to them or the rest of the Galaxy other than looking a bit shinier.

#162
feliciano2040

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edisnooM wrote...

Actually we don't know what happened to Joker and EDI.

 

Are you drunk ?

Did I confuse Garrus and Tali with Joker and EDI exiting out of the normandy into a tropical planet !?

#163
Smugglers Luck

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And Green used to be my favorite color... Oh well.

#164
Cobra's_back

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edisnooM wrote...

MEMANIAsama wrote...

edisnooM wrote...

Actually we don't know what happened to Joker and EDI.


They land on some planet and become some symbollic parallel for Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden. YAY RELIGIOUS OVERTONES!


Sorry, I meant we don't know about what Synthesis did to them or the rest of the Galaxy other than looking a bit shinier.




I can’t say that I saw Star Child as wise and all-knowing as well. Really didn’t see the need for Synthesis.

#165
edisnooM

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feliciano2040 wrote...

edisnooM wrote...

Actually we don't know what happened to Joker and EDI.

 

Are you drunk ?

Did I confuse Garrus and Tali with Joker and EDI exiting out of the normandy into a tropical planet !?


Actually as I clarified in the post above yours, I meant we don't know what Synthesis did to Joker and EDI other than them looking a bit shinier.

#166
MEMANIAsama

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Merged the two types of DNA (apparently there is Synthetic DNA? It's Science Fiction, sure, why not.) Creating a new lifeform that shares DNA from Synthetics & Organics. That's really all it did. It didn't change anybody's personalities or cultures or anything like that. But, it supposedly appeases the Catalyst and it's cold calculating AI perception of the inevitable doom of the galaxy.