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The Kick List - Gold.


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#326
Halomaster07

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GodlessPaladin wrote...

Halomaster07 wrote...

Good sal engineers keep up with those in a full 'dps' build.

  No, they do not.  There are no videos of a Salarian Engineer soloing as fast as a highly competent Geth Infiltrator.


I am not referring to a solo. In groups I have personally, and have seen sal engineers keep up and in my case surpass those in a dmg build. Energy drain spams.

The video of the krogan was to prove that the krogan was not a tank which I wrongly associated your "No" as a direct declination of the previously stated.

So it is a tank. I am correct in my stance that it is not needed and is firmly situated in my list.

#327
GodlessPaladin

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Deucetipher wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

I am familiar with the fallacy (and logic as a field in general), but I never knew it by that name.


So you have studied logic.


Of course!  Everyone should.  It strikes me as obscene that it has been removed from common practice in western society (right alongside things like historical revisionism or denying fields of science which contradict a religious ideology), and as such people are, rather predictably, utterly incapable of using logic (which explains why we have such ****ty politicians... who universally use logical fallacies to appeal to idiotic voters who are not in any way qualified to evaluate arguments, let alone competence).  A lot of people even seem to think that logic means "what I think makes sense," which is a notion so asinine that it hurts my brain to even think about it.  I had to go out and teach myself in my capacity as an autodidact.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 28 avril 2012 - 03:58 .


#328
Drummernate

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Okay... I got my brother to lend me his camera so I will be taking pics of all my pwnage and posting them to disprove some of the fools on the forums...

You ask, I supply.

Just had 3 games in a row with Geth Infil-melee getting 120,000 points.

From now on I will have pics. :D

#329
Halomaster07

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InfamousResult wrote...

Sorry, all I see is "I don't have proof that I don't suck".

Which, by your logic, means you suck.


I don't have proof to the otherwise, so you can think what you will. It wont hurt me one way or the other. I know that when I play I consistently perform in the 1st position with any class I choose to play, only occasionally dropping into 2nd while leveling some of the less effective (in my hands) classes.

#330
macroberts

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If I may express an opinion (which may have been said already but..... 13 pages =|). =)

To be honest, I cannot see how such hard and fast rules about what to kick or what to not kick can be made at all. Every class has its moments and weaknesses. Some are more effective against certain enemies than others, but so long as the user of the class is skilled enough, there's no reason why the use of such a class is invalid or kick-worthy. For example, a good human vanguard can do wonders when they charge around the field, setting off biotics (if available) and reviving their teammates. Sure, there may be times where they get taken down, but that's why the vanguard is always called high-risk-high-reward. I cannot think of a class that is completely useless enough to warrant it being kicked from a game. Perhaps that class isn't as effective, but that can be made up by the user's skill level.

You may say then, well, why take that risk? Why risk having a bad player on our team with a less effective class? To which I would answer: I don't feel I have the right to judge someone before I've actually seen them play. More generally, I don't feel I have the right to deny someone else to have fun with whatever class they choose, just because I may lose the game. So long as we have fun, it's all good for me.

The other point is this: if we agree it is player skill level that matters, then how can we determine this level? To which I would say: you cannot, at least not until you get into the game and see them play. The N7 rating doesn't tell you anything other than the fact that the player has played and promoted his characters many times. They may be good through experience and sheer exposure, but they could also have gotten to N7 2000 playing exclusively on bronze and not understand gold. It doesn't tell you whether or not that player is a good vanguard, or a fantastic engineer, or that he's just good at the game. Furthermore, a lot of players do not promote at all. I've racked up something like 40-50 hours on ME3 multiplayer and I'm still only N7 170-ish, because I've only promoted twice. Do I deserve to be kicked because I'm sub-N7200? Using the N7 rating as the criteria by which a person is judged useless enough to be kicked is just largely pointless.

What about the character's level? Should a lvl 1 vanguard with a predator be banned? Here you may be able to set some lines as to when you really shouldn't be in gold, and when you should. Having said that, there's a video of a couple of Russian Krogans on Lvl1 finishing gold. I'd hold them as the exception, but it still goes to show that a clear line cannot always be drawn.

Bottom line is, you cannot always find such hard and fast definitions as to what makes a player or character so bad that he or she needs to be removed from the game before it even starts. I don't really have an objection to kicking a player after a game, if they have been atrociously bad. But before the game has even started, before you can validly judge the player's skills and effectiveness, surely it's unfair to the other player to kick them from the game?

#331
GodlessPaladin

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Halomaster07 wrote... 1) For the krogan issue: A video of a krogan completing gold solo in a time comparable to that of a known 'dps' class spec.

Halomaster07 wrote... I am not referring to a solo.


Wow.  You can't even remember your own argument.

You say "Hey, proof would be completing a gold solo as fast as a high DPS class!"
Then I say "Hey, things you say work don't fit that criteria!  That renders your argument logically inconsistent!"
You say "Hey, I wasn't talking about a solo!"

...Can you really be that dense?

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 28 avril 2012 - 03:59 .


#332
Deucetipher

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GodlessPaladin wrote...

Yep.  Everyone should study logic.  It strikes me as obscene that it has been removed from common practice in western society, and as such people are, rather predictably, utterly incapable of using logic (which explains why we have such ****ty politicians... who universally use logical fallacies to appeal to idiotic voters who are not in any way qualified to evaluate competence).  A lot of people even seem to think that logic means "what I think makes sense," which is a notion so asinine that it hurts my brain to even think about it.  I had to go out and teach myself in my capacity as an autodidact.


Agreed.  Without reasoned discourse, made possible by logic, the marketplace of ideas fails.  When that happens, you get a bunch of people yelling at each other instead of finding solutions.  (this is also known as "the internet")

#333
afmn

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GodlessPaladin wrote...

Deucetipher wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

I am familiar with the fallacy (and logic as a field in general), but I never knew it by that name.


So you have studied logic.


Of course!  Everyone should.  It strikes me as obscene that it has been removed from common practice in western society (right alongside things like historical revisionism or denying fields of science which contradict a religious ideology), and as such people are, rather predictably, utterly incapable of using logic (which explains why we have such ****ty politicians... who universally use logical fallacies to appeal to idiotic voters who are not in any way qualified to evaluate competence).  A lot of people even seem to think that logic means "what I think makes sense," which is a notion so asinine that it hurts my brain to even think about it.  I had to go out and teach myself
in my capacity as an autodidact.


i just finished exams, why bring this here :(:(

#334
GodlessPaladin

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Logic belongs on forums because logic is the science of evaluating arguments. You simply cannot have a civilized argument without adhering to the laws of logic.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 28 avril 2012 - 04:00 .


#335
Halomaster07

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GodlessPaladin wrote...

Halomaster07 wrote... 1) For the krogan issue: A video of a krogan completing gold solo in a time comparable to that of a known 'dps' class spec.

Halomaster07 wrote... I am not referring to a solo.


Wow.  You can't even remember your own argument.

You say "Hey, proof would be completing a gold solo as fast as a high DPS class!"
Then I say "Hey, that criteria would make your premises incompatible with your own conclusions!"
You say "Hey, I wasn't talking about a solo!"

...Can you really be that dense?


Did you not read what I quoted or the comment there after?

Halomaster07 wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Halomaster07 wrote...

Good
sal engineers keep up with those in a full 'dps' build.

  No,
they do not.  There are no videos of a Salarian Engineer soloing as fast
as a highly competent Geth Infiltrator.


I am not
referring to a solo. In groups I have personally, and have seen sal
engineers keep up and in my case surpass those in a dmg build. Energy
drain spams.


This above comment refers to the salarian quotes.

This below refers to me mistaking what you said earlier... read it -.-


The video of the krogan was to prove that the krogan
was not a tank which I wrongly associated your "No" as a direct
declination of the previously stated.

So it is a tank. I am correct in my stance that it is not needed and is firmly situated in my list.


Basically I thought you were declaring Krogans as "not tanks, but dmg dealing with their super big weapons"

A video showing a krogan with comparable time completions would prove you right if you argument was what I mistook it for.

Modifié par Halomaster07, 28 avril 2012 - 04:05 .


#336
afmn

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GodlessPaladin wrote...

Logic belongs on forums because logic is the science of evaluating arguments. You simply cannot have a civilized argument without adhering to the laws of logic.


if this were any other time i would agree with you 100%. but given the ridiculous amount of brain hurting material i have endured in the past month, id rather just drink a cold one and shoot things for a while :P

#337
RazRei

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Drummernate wrote...

Okay... I got my brother to lend me his camera so I will be taking pics of all my pwnage and posting them to disprove some of the fools on the forums...

You ask, I supply.

Just had 3 games in a row with Geth Infil-melee getting 120,000 points.

From now on I will have pics. :D


Taking a picture...dafaq?

Still have this picture on my computer and yes we all melee'ed but the last guy against Reapers, Cerberus, Geth.
Image IPB

#338
Deucetipher

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afmn wrote...

i just finished exams, why bring this here :(:(


jaja!  Read almost any thread and you'll see the need to bring it here.

Modifié par Deucetipher, 28 avril 2012 - 04:04 .


#339
GodlessPaladin

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Halomaster07 wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Halomaster07 wrote... 1) For the krogan issue: A video of a krogan completing gold solo in a time comparable to that of a known 'dps' class spec.

Halomaster07 wrote... I am not referring to a solo.


Wow.  You can't even remember your own argument.

You say "Hey, proof would be completing a gold solo as fast as a high DPS class!"
Then I say "Hey, that criteria would make your premises incompatible with your own conclusions!"
You say "Hey, I wasn't talking about a solo!"

...Can you really be that dense?


Did you not read what I quoted or the comment there after?

Halomaster07 wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Halomaster07 wrote...

Good
sal engineers keep up with those in a full 'dps' build.

  No,
they do not.  There are no videos of a Salarian Engineer soloing as fast
as a highly competent Geth Infiltrator.


I am not
referring to a solo. In groups I have personally, and have seen sal
engineers keep up and in my case surpass those in a dmg build. Energy
drain spams.


This above comment refers to the salarian quotes.

This below refers to me mistaking what you said earlier... read it -.-


The video of the krogan was to prove that the krogan
was not a tank which I wrongly associated your "No" as a direct
declination of the previously stated.

So it is a tank. I am correct in my stance that it is not needed and is firmly situated in my list.


Basically I thought you were declaring Krogans as "not tanks, but dmg dealing with their super big weapons"

A video showing a krogan with comparable time completions would prove you right if you argument was what I mistook it for.


Yet again you contradict yourself. Nevermind how stupid it is to say "since it's a tank, it should be kicked," but moreover you ignore that you have said that other classes that are tanks (such as the Salarian Engineer or Asari Justicar) are acceptable.

There doesn't actually NEED to be any new gathering of empirical evidence to wholly disavow your claims, not only because sufficient empirical evidence already exists and is easily accessible, but also because your claims are not logically valid to begin with.  Your arguments violate the most fundamental of logical principles.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 28 avril 2012 - 04:10 .


#340
Guest_XxTaLoNxX_*

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Halomaster07 wrote...

defleshing wrote...

godless palidan said you were wrong take his word for it. don't believe me look up some of his videos. poor quality and hard to watch but when he speaks you should listen.


He says I am wrong. Lets assume I'm wrong then. The first one I let into my group is terrible, runs off dies, leaves us to three man nearly every round. Alright that was just bad luck. Next one, terrible. Same for the third.

How many of these must I sit through to prove I'm right?

Actually, this will make it more simple. From now till sunday, I will take an HD pic (not from a wifi potatoe) of the resulting game from me not being critical of the classes I allow into my games. I am just bored enough I may actually do this.


I like how you can consistantly post in here every five minutes and yet still are able to play 3 games and ALL THREE seem to magically have Krogans in them.

Interesting.

#341
Halomaster07

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GodlessPaladin wrote...

Yet again you contradict yourself. Nevermind how stupid it is to say "since it's a tank, it should be kicked,"
It's a tank, it is not going to be as beneficial as a full dps, on top of that, every pug experienced prefers to rush in and melee, which is my most basic point.

but moreover you ignore that you have said that other classes that are tanks (such as the Salarian Engineer) are acceptable.

The salarian engineer is not a tank, now you are misreading what I have posted. I have never and will never call a class that does not personally take the dmg a "tank." Salarian engineers are acceptable because they provide a highly effective defensive skill and can dish out dmg similar to that of a full dmg build.



#342
GodlessPaladin

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Halomaster07 wrote...
It's a tank, it is not going to be as beneficial as a full dps, on top of that, every pug experienced prefers to rush in and melee, which is my most basic point.

  This argument commits the False Dillema fallacy.  Again, can you really be this dense?

A very simple counterexample to your proposed principle would be simply pointing at the Vanguard... which is an incredibly effective tank and deals damage by the boatload, and is a speed demon for speedruns.

The salarian engineer is not a tank,
now you are misreading what I have posted. I have never and will never
call a class that does not personally take the dmg a "tank." Salarian
engineers are acceptable because they provide a highly effective
defensive skill and can dish out dmg similar to that of a full dmg
build.


Wow, your posts are getting dumber each time you elaborate.  You are now actually arguing that defensive utility is worthwhile and "highly effective," even though you were previously arguing that possessing a defensive utility was cause for deeming a class useless.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 28 avril 2012 - 04:18 .


#343
Halomaster07

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XxTaLoNxX wrote...

Halomaster07 wrote...

defleshing wrote...

godless palidan said you were wrong take his word for it. don't believe me look up some of his videos. poor quality and hard to watch but when he speaks you should listen.


He says I am wrong. Lets assume I'm wrong then. The first one I let into my group is terrible, runs off dies, leaves us to three man nearly every round. Alright that was just bad luck. Next one, terrible. Same for the third.

How many of these must I sit through to prove I'm right?

Actually, this will make it more simple. From now till sunday, I will take an HD pic (not from a wifi potatoe) of the resulting game from me not being critical of the classes I allow into my games. I am just bored enough I may actually do this.


I like how you can consistantly post in here every five minutes and yet still are able to play 3 games and ALL THREE seem to magically have Krogans in them.

Interesting.


Hypothetical, the same way you were "done with this thread."

Though as Ive said probably 5 times now, If I did let them in they would suck.

#344
InfamousResult

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Halomaster07 wrote...

I don't have proof to the otherwise, so you can think what you will. It wont hurt me one way or the other. I know that when I play I consistently perform in the 1st position with any class I choose to play, only occasionally dropping into 2nd while leveling some of the less effective (in my hands) classes.


No you don't.

#345
RazRei

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Halomaster07 wrote...

Hypothetical, the same way you were "done with this thread."

Though as Ive said probably 5 times now, If I did let them in they would suck.


How would you know they suck if you haven't played with them?

Just stop generalizing and being an ignorant ....k

#346
Halomaster07

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GodlessPaladin wrote...

Halomaster07 wrote...
It's a tank, it is not going to be as beneficial as a full dps, on top of that, every pug experienced prefers to rush in and melee, which is my most basic point.

  This argument commits the False Dillema fallacy.  Again, can you really be this dense?

The salarian engineer is not a tank,
now you are misreading what I have posted. I have never and will never
call a class that does not personally take the dmg a "tank." Salarian
engineers are acceptable because they provide a highly effective
defensive skill and can dish out dmg similar to that of a full dmg
build.


Wow, your posts are getting dumber each time you elaborate.  You are now actually arguing that defensive utility is worthwhile, even though you were previously arguing that possessing a defensive utility was cause for deeming a class useless.

Defensive utility + the ability to maintain that of a full dps build (which krogans lack), read the entire statement.


What is the alternative to whatever I am missing about the Krogan, do tell.

Modifié par Halomaster07, 28 avril 2012 - 04:16 .


#347
Halomaster07

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RazRei wrote...

Halomaster07 wrote...

Hypothetical, the same way you were "done with this thread."

Though as Ive said probably 5 times now, If I did let them in they would suck.


How would you know they suck if you haven't played with them?

Just stop generalizing and being an ignorant ....k


I HAVE played with them, that is the thing. I have played with hundreds. I thoroughly enojoy krogans; however, AS I STATED BEFORE, people can't play them effectively which is why they are on the list.

I am taking the odds of finding a good krogan, miniscule at best, and weighing them against playing with potentially terrible ones that need to be carried, revived multiple times per round, and run off on their own. Completely eradicating them from the classes playing is the best option.

Modifié par Halomaster07, 28 avril 2012 - 04:21 .


#348
Korahn27

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Hey now.  My infiltrator uses an assault rifle as a backup weapon.

#349
GodlessPaladin

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Halomaster07 wrote...
Defensive utility + the ability to maintain that of a full dps build (which krogans lack), read the entire statement.


The notion that Salarian Engineers can deal death as efficiently as some of the more aggressive classes (such as a Geth Infiltrator) is just not true at all.  The very idea is laughable.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 28 avril 2012 - 04:22 .


#350
Drummernate

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Wait... so are you saying that a Krogan who can sit there and eat 4-5 atlas rockets before going down is not going to be able to do damage well?

Just take a Saber.... or a Paladin.... or a Javelin....

It doesn't matter, you will do just as much damage as anyone else.