85 réponses à ce sujet

[Amioran]

DaJe wrote...

Duh? Yes it is pretty much the same.

Sorry but no.

DaJe wrote...
But "artistic integrity". I mean really, how ****ing stupid do they think their playerbase is.

Maybe so stupid as to neither understand the differences?

[Amioran]

Surprise Guest wrote...
It still depends on how you you interpret the ending choices. It's not as clear cut at that. There are many themes that anyone could claim was the "central theme" of Mass Effect and that would only be an opinion.

There's nothing of "opinion" here. Again, the only way you can think something as this is in not knowing the theme.

The way all the synthetics/organics struggle is introduced, the way the villains and main characters behave, either their names (example: Legion) and their archetypes, the major threat with their motivations and point of view (Reapers), the SC and its behaviour/modus operandi, the choices in the end etc. etc. all are perfectly consistent with the theme I'm talking about.

In short: all the narrative as it was introduced from beginning it is perfectly consistent with the theme, and it has continued to always be, till the end.

Surprise Guest wrote...
Edit: Wouldn't the illusive man, majority of choices and paragon/renegade system possibly suggest that the game's central theme regards sacrifice for the greater good?

"Sacrifice for the greater good" is a part of the "order vs. chaos" theme (and of many others too). It is not properly a theme, it is more a modus operandi within the same. A theme has always certain angles from which to see it through; a modus operandi provides this function, it is like a "lens" on which to see or from which to approach the same.

Usually it is tied, in fact, with the protagonist, being its function the same, that of providing a filter, a window, an angle, from which to approach the theme with.

Modifié par Amioran, 28 avril 2012 - 12:36 .

[Surprise Guest]

Amioran wrote...

Surprise Guest wrote...
It still depends on how you you interpret the ending choices. It's not as clear cut at that. There are many themes that anyone could claim was the "central theme" of Mass Effect and that would only be an opinion.

There's nothing of "opinion" here. Again, the only way you can think something as this is in not knowing the theme.

The way all the synthetics/organics struggle is introduced, the way the villains and main characters behave, either their names (example: Legion) and their archetypes, the major threat with their motivations and point of view (Reapers), the SC and its behaviour/modus operandi, the choices in the end etc. etc. all are perfectly consistent with the theme I'm talking about.

In short: all the narrative as it was introduced from beginning it is perfectly consistent with the theme, and it has continued to always be, till the end.

Surprise Guest wrote...
Edit: Wouldn't the illusive man, majority of choices and paragon/renegade system possibly suggest that the game's central theme regards sacrifice for the greater good?

"Sacrifice for the greater good" is a part of the "order vs. chaos" theme (and of many others too). It is not properly a theme, it is more a modus operandi within the same. A theme has always certain angles from which to see it through; a modus operandi provides this function, it is like a "lens" on which to see or from which to approach the same.

Usually it is tied, in fact, with the protagonist, being its function the same, that of providing a filter, a window, an angle, from which to approach the theme with.

Hmm I'm still not convinced. You could argue that by its very nature of being a war story sacrifice is the central theme of the game. I do actually agree with you that order vs. chaos is the central concept of the game as exemplified by its antagonists and the ending, but I wouldn't be so confident as to tell everyone else they're wrong.

Edit: Oh I suppose I should mention deus ex. I really enjoyed the ending of that game, it was interesting in how it explored notions power and the representation of truth. Context is what makes it completely different from ME3, along with the fact that it predicts the outcomes of your actions, which I guess provides much better closure. It was also presented much much better than Mass Effect's awkward crash landing rubbish.

Modifié par Surprise Guest, 28 avril 2012 - 01:07 .

[AkiKishi]

LaurenShepard-N7 wrote...

So I just finish playing Deus Ex Human Revolution and wow now I totally get where the ME3 writers stole- got their inspiration from... The ABC choices, the ethereal machine explaining the consequences of said choices, the hero prossibly sacrificing himself... except it made sense in DX because the whole game was about morality and humanity's evolution, it was like ME3 was just introducing a whole new theme in the last few minutes, and just threw away all the previous games' choices and storylines....

It's similiar to HR, but its a direct rip off of Deus Ex. Even to the point of people linking those endings as Mass Effect3 endings on youtube as a joke.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 28 avril 2012 - 01:56 .

[slimgrin]

RX_Sean_XI wrote...

Sad to see this is the level their Artistic Integrity is at these days.

Lol, no kidding. Defending artistic integrity after kyping another ending.

[Amioran]

Surprise Guest wrote...
Hmm I'm still not convinced. You could argue that by its very nature of being a war story sacrifice is the central theme of the game.

"Sacrifice" cannot be a theme because it is not a concept that can stand alone, by itself. It needs a context to rely upon to gain a specific meaning. "Sacrifice" can mean, and can change to mean, a lot of things different, depending on the context. A theme it is always itself, it doesn't need a context to rely upon (or to change upon) because it is the context; just the angle from which you can approach it can change, not its meaning itself.

Surprise Guest wrote...
I do actually agree with you that order vs. chaos is the central concept of the game as exemplified by its antagonists and the ending, but I wouldn't be so confident as to tell everyone else they're wrong.

If a theme is a central concept and you don't know it then your judgment is much more difficult.

As for saying many people here are "wrong" I refer specifically to the fact that, for example, they insist some things don't make any sense when they are perfectly explained by the theme. Again, lacking context, they judge a thing in a way that's not appropriate.

Modifié par Amioran, 28 avril 2012 - 03:40 .

[Amioran]

BobSmith101 wrote...
It's similiar to HR, but its a direct rip off of Deus Ex. Even to the point of people linking those endings as Mass Effect3 endings on youtube as a joke.

No, it's not. The context it is completey different. YouTube is hardly proof of anything given the general IQ and knowledge of the users there.

A while ago I provided you an example, the Faust of Goethe and the Faust of Marlowe, to explain in the details what I meant by this. In fact, probably, it is the best way to make you understand the concept, a much better way that I can do explaining it myself. The problem is that you probably never read them both so you didn't get to what I was referring to.

Let me try to explain to you, and others, what I meant by it. Both books have as subject Faust, a guy that makes a pact with the Devil. In both books the events, story, major "plots" are the same, but (and it is an enourmous but) they have a completely different context. The thematic on how the events are approached, the "philosophical angle" of the same etc. are completely different.

If you would consider only the superficial aspects of the books, i.e. the subject/story etc. you would think one a "copy" of the other (Goethe's to be specific) but that naturally would be an idiocy (you can try for yourself saying a thing as that in a literature forum) because, in fact, the two books are completely different instead.

In fact, it is the context that defines the difference in a narrative, and NOT the subject/structure of the same.

As an even more barebone example to explain the thing: are two individuals dressing in the same way to be considered the same person? Are twins to be considered the same individual just because they can look the same?

Modifié par Amioran, 28 avril 2012 - 05:56 .

[DaJe]

Amioran wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
It's similiar to HR, but its a direct rip off of Deus Ex. Even to the point of people linking those endings as Mass Effect3 endings on youtube as a joke.

No, it's not. The context it is completey different. YouTube is hardly proof of anything given the general IQ and knowledge of the users there.

A while ago I provided you an example, the Faust of Goethe and the Faust of Marlowe, to explain in the details what I meant by this. In fact, probably, it is the best way to make you understand the concept, a much better way that I can do explaining it myself. The problem is that you probably never read them both so you didn't get to what I was referring to.

Let me try to explain to you, and others, what I meant by it. Both books have as subject Faust, a guy that makes a pact with the Devil. In both books the events, story, major "plots" are the same, but (and it is an enourmous but) they have a completely different context. The thematic on how the events are approached, the "philosophical angle" of the same etc. are completely different.

If you would consider only the superficial aspects of the books, i.e. the subject/story etc. you would think one a "copy" of the other (Goethe's to be specific) but that naturally would be an idiocy (you can try for yourself saying a thing as that in a literature forum) because, in fact, the two books are completely different instead.

In fact, it is the context that defines the difference in a narrative, and NOT the subject/structure of the same.

As an even more barebone example to explain the thing: are two individuals dressing in the same way to be considered the same person? Are twins to be considered the same individual just because they can look the same?

Yes, the context is completely different, but within the context of each game the 3 choices are the same. Control, Merge and Destroy. Because the context is so different the ending sucks. The Deus Ex ending doesn't work in Mass Effect. You might argue all day long against that, but the ending is generally comprehended as BAD.

[SalsaDMA]

RyuujinZERO wrote...

Ericus wrote...

Yep. I never played the original Deus Ex, but apparently the ME3 endings are an even more blatant 'homage' to that game.

Yah. i loved DE1, more so than DE:HR. The endings in DE:HR though arn't an ending-o-matic theres 3 short pathways to follow to set up the respective ending (ie. chocies matter), which also have more fleshing out so you get some feel for what the consequences might be.


The 3 options in DE1 were:

Destroy: Destroy the hub facility, bringing down the global communication network and plunging the world into a psuedo-dark age, but one where nobody can have easy control over everything.

ME3 differs in this respect in that all 3 endings end in destroying the equivalent system (galactic travel and comms network)


Control: The protagonist sacrifices his "self" to merge with the experimental AI allowing himself to interface with the global comms network and become a digital psuedo-god - benevolent dictator or ruthless despot is never revealled that'd been up to you

Similar in many respects to the control ending of ME3. Shepard takes control of the reapers; whether he puts them to good use after the ending or merely makes them leave is left up to the viewer to interpret.


Status-Quo: Turn the facility over to the illuminati and re-establish the old power base, becoming a member of the illuminati yourself and using the hub facility to your advantage in maintaining a subtle control over humanities direction.

Synthesis has nothing in common with this one



So... it's got as many differences as similarities...

Invisble war had the choices too I seem to recall.

There was the destroy that eventually led to the extinction of anyone not cyberrigged.
Synthesis, where everybody got connected to the supercomputer and shared thoughts, so everyone knew what everyone was thinking (appearantly this was supposedly a 'good' ending, because it elimated lying and deceit).
There was the ending where you left control to the secret organization behind it all to pull the strings

I think there was one more ending with letting it be another faction you let get control of the computer, but I only bothered with the destroy and synthesis before I realised I had borked up my saves by killing npcs that allowed the other endings

[Amioran]

DaJe wrote...
Yes, the context is completely different, but within the context of each game the 3 choices are the same. Control, Merge and Destroy.

You want to re-read what I wrote, so maybe you can understand what I said a little better (I know in fact that it is not a concept so easy to understand at first impact). Also in the Faust (both of Goethe and Marlowe) the events/story are the same, but this doesn't mean that they are the same book, or one is a copy of another, at all.

As I said, it is the context the primary factor that defines a difference, not the structure.

The three choices being the same means nothing (or it means only from a pure superfical aspect, that in turns, it counts nothing at all when tallking about "difference") when the theme is completely different, because the motivations, outcomes, meanings etc. have nothing in common.

But don't mistake, I can understand perfectly that here (or in YouTube, or similar) the majority of people just see that the three choices are the same and immediately think "copieeeeed....". That's perfectly plausible, given the context of this forum (do you see how much imporant is the context?). It doesn't make it true, and on the contrary it is only based on ignorance of the things talked about, but I understand this perfectly.

DaJe wrote...
Because the context is so different the ending sucks. The Deus Ex ending doesn't work in Mass Effect. You might argue all day long against that, but the ending is generally comprehended as BAD.

"Generally" means very little, my friend, especially here. Also Tolkien here is generally comprehended as a great author, when instead he is considered by all people that have a little of knowledge of writing as just a mediocre one at best (if not just as pure trash), so, you know, it is usually wiser to listen to the opinion of those that actually know a little of what they are talking about instead of those that just pretend to be in that same position.

For the case of ME it is not different. The different context (in the case of ME the theme order vs. chaos) fits perfectly with the three choices at the end and how they are executed. They are perfectly consistent with the context. So the "generally" fails another time.

Modifié par Amioran, 28 avril 2012 - 08:14 .

[Bravenu3]

MattFini wrote... Shameless theft, is what it was.

I agree with the sentiment, but how can it be theft, if the ending is still in DXHR? "Unauthorized copying" is the better term. Theft can only occur with physical things.

[Zaisha_temp]

Bravenu3 wrote...

MattFini wrote... Shameless theft, is what it was.

I agree with the sentiment, but how can it be theft, if the ending is still in DXHR? "Unauthorized copying" is the better term. Theft can only occur with physical things.

Eh, according to the industry Bioware is in, (and EA in particular) unauthorised copying/copyright infringement is theft. 

It's only fair to judge them by their own standards, right? 

[eternalnightmare13]

LaurenShepard-N7 wrote...

So I just finish playing Deus Ex Human Revolution and wow now I totally get where the ME3 writers stole- got their inspiration from... The ABC choices, the ethereal machine explaining the consequences of said choices, the hero prossibly sacrificing himself... except it made sense in DX because the whole game was about morality and humanity's evolution, it was like ME3 was just introducing a whole new theme in the last few minutes, and just threw away all the previous games' choices and storylines....

Bioware stole a lot from The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion when they made DA:O, so it wouldn't surprise me if they stole from DX

Modifié par eternalnightmare13, 28 avril 2012 - 08:48 .

[TonyTitan]

The 'Paragon' ending for ME3 is just so damn ridiculous, it's stupid. The entire game you're fighting your way against TIM/Cerberus from controlling the Reapers....saying how wrong it is, the only good reaper is a dead reaper, etc, etc......Then to go and control them yourself???

Seriously, Paragon or not.....Controlling the Reapers should have been made the Renegade option. It still could have gone down with the 'Child' stating something like, "Over time your control will break down....you'll understand more on how harvesting needs to happen. So for this cycle you will end the Reaper invasion, but in 50,000 years, when the cycle is set to happen again, you may have a better understanding just why harvesting needs to take place. But for now, this cycle will end. Peace will return. The Citadel along with the Mass Relays will no longer exist. But this cycles inhabitants with their knowledge of these devices, will create them once again, and the Reapers will be able to return."

[SalsaDMA]

Bravenu3 wrote...

MattFini wrote... Shameless theft, is what it was.

I agree with the sentiment, but how can it be theft, if the ending is still in DXHR? "Unauthorized copying" is the better term. Theft can only occur with physical things.

You might want to try and run that one down with anyone holding rights over an IP

[Amioran]

TonyTitan wrote...

The 'Paragon' ending for ME3 is just so damn ridiculous, it's stupid. The entire game you're fighting your way against TIM/Cerberus from controlling the Reapers....saying how wrong it is, the only good reaper is a dead reaper, etc, etc......Then to go and control them yourself???

That's one aspect of the theme. You get to "fight" agains certain point of views during the same, thinking that there's always "another way" to end the conflict only to find out in the end that the free will you think you have it is just an illusion, and the choices are already laid out for you by the inevitability of the events.

The others you "fight" (the type of fight depends on the execution of the theme) are already passed on that stage (or anyway are archetypes of that choices) and know this perfectly, but in your "innocence" and naivety you thought that they were wrong (given that you think there's always another solution by the power of your free will) only to find out "that they were right all along" in the end, when confronted with the reality of the situation.

This is just a very barebone summary, the thing is much more complex and subtle. But in little words it is what happens in the theme.

So, you see, it's not "stupid" at all, quite the contrary. It is a very profound concept.

Modifié par Amioran, 28 avril 2012 - 09:02 .

[St.Chimera]

Actually, Mass Effect 3 endings has nothing to do with DE:HR endings. ME 3 endings were ripped off the endings of Deus Ex 1, which was released 1999 (or 2000, can't remember). There were options to merge main hero with the super A.I. (synthesis), destroy global information hub which will bring some sort of medieval age to earth, and rule by yourself with Illuminati (like a control option). Though in Deus Ex choice meant something, and was a conclusion to everything that happened in the game.

[TonyTitan]

Amioran wrote...

TonyTitan wrote...

The 'Paragon' ending for ME3 is just so damn ridiculous, it's stupid. The entire game you're fighting your way against TIM/Cerberus from controlling the Reapers....saying how wrong it is, the only good reaper is a dead reaper, etc, etc......Then to go and control them yourself???

That's one aspect of the theme. You get to "fight" agains certain point of views during the same, thinking that there's always "another way" to end the conflict only to find out in the end that the free will you think you have it is just an illusion, and the choices are already laid out for you by the inevitability of the events.

The others you "fight" (the type of fight depends on the execution of the theme) are already passed on that stage (or anyway are archetypes of that choices) and know this perfectly, but in your "innocence" and naivety you thought that they were wrong (given that you think there's always another solution by the power of your free will) only to find out "that they were right all along" in the end, when confronted with the reality of the situation.

This is just a very barebone summary, the thing is much more complex and subtle. But in little words it is what happens in the theme.

So, you see, it's not "stupid" at all, quite the contrary. It is a very profound concept.

I agree....It was a very profound concept.  Unfortunately it created way to many plot holes.  I'm all for the 180 degree shift on how we 'percieve' things should have happened....but at times like those that I've seen them, there were always hints, or things you'd blatantly see throughout the story arc, that the choice you THINK is correct, is actually not the better choice at all.

This didn't happen here...even first beaming up to the Citadel, control wasn't the way....Destruction of the Reapers was in Shepard's mind.  But not until this 'child' appears and explains different scenarios does he/she possibly decide it is now the 'right thing to do'. 

In a court of law, a lawyer would argue that Shepard made that decision under extreme duress. 

[XTR3M3]

At least the Deus Ex games had the decency to call themselves deus ex. That ending was actually expected and followed canon of the game....ME3 didn't. it just was like someone just got through playing DE HR or watching Lost and said "hey guys! I got it! let's switch everything to a deus ex ending! It will be a great twist!".....wow were they wrong.

[FFinfinity1]

Except I liked the DE:HR endings, plus they were even more varied than ME3 wth

[XqctaX]

Do i need to tell yuo folks that i was on casey's twitter a few days ago. he has i shiny deux ex gamecopy he took a pic of and upped on twitter. LOOOOOOOOL

such a fail, and i can even laughf about it. this hurts me

[Apocaleepse360]

 Tbh the whole game feels like it was given a low budget. I don't blame Bioware, I blame EA. Except for the ending... That's on Bioware's head.

[Mass effect 2 forever]

The reference is Star Trek the motion picture. Although any film with transhumanism in it would serve as a suitable reference I think the obviousness of that film as an inspriation is pretty obvious.

[Keltikone]

I am JC Denton and I approve of this thread.