85 réponses à ce sujet

[PARAGON87]

[DEUS EX: HUMAN REVOLUTION SPOILERS]

The Deus Ex: HR endings were better than ME3's, because they had a fourth option that wasn't present in ME3:

Screw it all, and let humanity (or in ME3's case, organics) decide the future for themselves.

Modifié par PARAGON87, 28 avril 2012 - 11:50 .

[Surprise Guest]

Amioran wrote...

Surprise Guest wrote...
Hmm I'm still not convinced. You could argue that by its very nature of being a war story sacrifice is the central theme of the game.

"Sacrifice" cannot be a theme because it is not a concept that can stand alone, by itself. It needs a context to rely upon to gain a specific meaning. "Sacrifice" can mean, and can change to mean, a lot of things different, depending on the context. A theme it is always itself, it doesn't need a context to rely upon (or to change upon) because it is the context; just the angle from which you can approach it can change, not its meaning itself.

Surprise Guest wrote...
I do actually agree with you that order vs. chaos is the central concept of the game as exemplified by its antagonists and the ending, but I wouldn't be so confident as to tell everyone else they're wrong.

If a theme is a central concept and you don't know it then your judgment is much more difficult.

As for saying many people here are "wrong" I refer specifically to the fact that, for example, they insist some things don't make any sense when they are perfectly explained by the theme. Again, lacking context, they judge a thing in a way that's not appropriate.

Hmm I disagree, sacrifice can stand alone as as a theme as it has a meaning simply being that things come at a cost. Whether or not its complex enough is irrelevant as it's still an idea with its own set of discourse. And mass effect gives it context, which is usually concerned with scientific progression.

The game's original intended ending being whether to sacrifice all of humanity due to the dark energy issue would have taken away from the order vs. chaos theme. While it still exists (in a much nicer, subtle way) in the choices you could make, the final impression of the game would have been more concerned with at what cost should you protect the future, rather than the nature of existence. I only mention this because this is what Mass Effect 1 and 2 were originally leading to.

And people are free to say ME3 did rip off deus ex, they're not saying its exactly the same, but that it seems too similar in terms of interaction and ideas.

[Splinter Cell 108]

Yeah they pretty much stole Deus Ex's endings. For example with Deus Ex HR, Destroy is Darrow's ending, Synthesis is Sarif's ending and Control is the Illuminati's ending. They're almost completely the same, it sickens me to see that they just stole it from some other game. ME3 even has an AI of its own to present the endings just like Deus Ex had Helios I think and Eliza, ME3 has starbrat.

Its almost unbelievable when you think about it. The worst part about them copying Deus Ex is that Deus Ex HR's endings weren't exactly popular, so I don't see where the idea that they would be popular in ME3 came from. In my opinion they just stole it and put it into ME3 because the game was rushed.

[E_rik]

But HR wins because it had 33.3% more ending.

[Amioran]

TonyTitan wrote...
This didn't happen here...even first beaming up to the Citadel, control wasn't the way....Destruction of the Reapers was in Shepard's mind.  But not until this 'child' appears and explains different scenarios does he/she possibly decide it is now the 'right thing to do'. 

That's the point. In the free will pow (that of Shepard) there's always another solution, and the real conflict (that of the two incompatible point of views) is not taken in consideration given the supposed threat. When the "courtains" falls then everything acquire a different sense, and there's no other way around that the choices already laid out for you.

TonyTitan wrote...In a court of law, a lawyer would argue that Shepard made that decision under extreme duress. 

Sure, but that doesn't change that, not withstanding the context you made the decision, sometimes you have to make it nonetheless.

Modifié par Amioran, 29 avril 2012 - 08:56 .

[Amioran]

Surprise Guest wrote...
Hmm I disagree, sacrifice can stand alone as as a theme as it has a meaning simply being that things come at a cost. Whether or not its complex enough is irrelevant as it's still an idea with its own set of discourse. And mass effect gives it context, which is usually concerned with scientific progression.

It's not the complexity, it is just that "sacrifice" can mean many different things. There's sacrifice for individuality, there's sacrifice for morality, there's sacrifice for idealism and so on and so forth. The term "sacrifice" and what it represents can change dramatically given the context.

A theme doesn't change.

Surprise Guest wrote...
The game's original intended ending being whether to sacrifice all of humanity due to the dark energy issue would have taken away from the order vs. chaos theme.

No, it would not. It depended everything on the execution of the "sacrifice". Again, it depends on how the context of the "sacrifice" would have been introduced.

Surprise Guest wrote...
While it still exists (in a much nicer, subtle way) in the choices you could make, the final impression of the game would have been more concerned with at what cost should you protect the future, rather than the nature of existence. I only mention this because this is what Mass Effect 1 and 2 were originally leading to.

You are prone to believe that in ME1 and 2 the modus operandi was the primary aspect because that's the nature of the protagonist. The story at that time was incentred much more on Shepard as a character instead that the narrative and the context as a whole, but the order vs. chaos theme was always the primary aspect of this last. It is just that your attention was focused more on the modus operandi of the theme (that I explained before).

When the narrative expanded and that of Shepard just became only another point of view, the context (and so the theme) acquired its original impact, that of a primary part of a narrative.

It is just like watching a scenery, then using a binocular for a while to address some particulars, but when you stop using the binoculars it is all that scene that matters more.

Surprise Guest wrote...
And people are free to say ME3 did rip off deus ex, they're not saying its exactly the same, but that it seems too similar in terms of interaction and ideas.

"Rip-off" means a thing is copied. ME ending and DX one are completely different given the context, and it is the context that matters when judging if a narrative is copied or not.

[Bravenu3]

Zaisha_temp wrote...

Bravenu3 wrote...

MattFini wrote... Shameless theft, is what it was.

I agree with the sentiment, but how can it be theft, if the ending is still in DXHR? "Unauthorized copying" is the better term. Theft can only occur with physical things.

Eh, according to the industry Bioware is in, (and EA in particular) unauthorised copying/copyright infringement is theft. It's only fair to judge them by their own standards, right?

It's fun, yes, but you still adopt their illogical concept. That's not really helpful if one wants to see the concept of "stealing intellectual property" going down.

Modifié par Bravenu3, 29 avril 2012 - 09:36 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

daecath wrote...

RyuujinZERO wrote...

Ericus wrote...

Yep. I never played the original Deus Ex, but apparently the ME3 endings are an even more blatant 'homage' to that game.

Yah. i loved DE1, more so than DE:HR. The endings in DE:HR though arn't an ending-o-matic theres 3 short pathways to follow to set up the respective ending (ie. chocies matter), which also have more fleshing out so you get some feel for what the consequences might be.


The 3 options in DE1 were:

Destroy: Destroy the hub facility, bringing down the global communication network and plunging the world into a psuedo-dark age, but one where nobody can have easy control over everything.

ME3 differs in this respect in that all 3 endings end in destroying the equivalent system (galactic travel and comms network)


Control: The protagonist sacrifices his "self" to merge with the experimental AI allowing himself to interface with the global comms network and become a digital psuedo-god - benevolent dictator or ruthless despot is never revealled that'd been up to you

Similar in many respects to the control ending of ME3. Shepard takes control of the reapers; whether he puts them to good use after the ending or merely makes them leave is left up to the viewer to interpret.


Status-Quo: Turn the facility over to the illuminati and re-establish the old power base, becoming a member of the illuminati yourself and using the hub facility to your advantage in maintaining a subtle control over humanities direction.

Synthesis has nothing in common with this one



So... it's got as many differences as similarities...

You've got your control and synthesis backwards.

Control: Turn the facility over to the illuminati and re-establish the old power base, becoming a member of the illuminati yourself and using the hub facility to your advantage in maintaining a subtle control over [humanity's] direction.

Synthesis: The protagonist sacrifices his "self" to merge with the experimental AI
allowing himself to interface with the global comms network and become a
digital psuedo-god - benevolent dictator or ruthless despot is never
revealled that'd been up to you

Nope, Ryuujin is right.
Cerberus is taken care of and T.I.M is dead. So the Control option in two games are similar. Illuminati are Reapers ...

I'm sick of your narrow mined anti-Cerberus propaganda. Just because it is suggested by T.I.M it's the most evil option ... *lol indoctrination*

[Oldbones2]

LaurenShepard-N7 wrote...

So I just finish playing Deus Ex Human Revolution and wow now I totally get where the ME3 writers stole- got their inspiration from... The ABC choices, the ethereal machine explaining the consequences of said choices, the hero prossibly sacrificing himself... except it made sense in DX because the whole game was about morality and humanity's evolution, it was like ME3 was just introducing a whole new theme in the last few minutes, and just threw away all the previous games' choices and storylines....

It's not really a rip off a DE HR (though all Deus Ex endings are so quite similar in execution and plot and identical in theme), but it is a copy and paste theft of the original Deus Ex.

[Ghost-621]

It's a blatant ripoff. Deus Ex handled it right, though. Mac Walters with his attempted LOST crap did not work out.

[Doublecross]

I am just so sad I really am. I just ignored the forums and all this **** that was going around the ending because it really broke my heart and my passion for the series, like a bad break up. But recently i just kept coming back, not just for closure, the ending is broken. I want a new one. After all the girls i have dated in my life. I have never crawled back to them so shamelessly in desperation like i am here. I need to finish my chapter with mass effect but it just wont let me go....

Please Bioware release me of this ****ing pain....

[Achire]

Shepard! The relays are going...the relays are going black. Shepard! No more Mass Relays, interstellar travel of any kind. We'll start again. Live in villages. If you receive this, if you survive...then find us! Find us!

[DaJe]

Ghost-621 wrote...

It's a blatant ripoff. Deus Ex handled it right, though. Mac Walters with his attempted LOST crap did not work out.

Funny how they specifically said not to do the LOST thing and bring up more questions than answers at the end, but that's exactly what happened.
And then calling an obvious  rip-off "artistic integrity".
The irony is so dense it almost hurts. This company doesn't deserve it's dedicated fans anymore.

[chengthao]

it shouldn't be considered "artistic integrity" when you STEAL the idea from another game

no integrity in that

[MB617]

Extended Cut Really adds to the ripping off here. (The following is from a different topic, but I summarized the main points)
Deus Ex:HR did have the pick your ending system with 3 main ones and a 4th one. The 4th one involved Jensen staying true to himself and letting humanity do their own thing because he has no right to pick for them. It was the best ending and also the most depressing. See the resemblance so far? Well, I'm not done yet. After you pick your ending you get an epic monologue narrating your journey, if you strayed from your path, what you hope the future has to offer. I know, just like Hackett/EDI/Shep. Did I mention there was a slideshow too, instead of a cutscene?

Sounds completely different, if you ask me.

[Erixxxx]

Foundation's Edge. Isaac Asimov. 1982.

Sorry to burst everyone's bubble, but Deus Ex sure as hell didn't create the concept.

[Forbry]

PARAGON87 wrote...

[DEUS EX: HUMAN REVOLUTION SPOILERS]

The Deus Ex: HR endings were better than ME3's, because they had a fourth option that wasn't present in ME3:

Screw it all, and let humanity (or in ME3's case, organics) decide the future for themselves.

That's similar to the refusal option. You let others sort it out. The cycle continues and let humanity (DX:HR)/future civilizations (ME3) decide...

[Naugi]

You'd never know this is a spoiler free forum, lol

[SNascimento]

Negative.

[Blueprotoss]

LaurenShepard-N7 wrote...

So I just finish playing Deus Ex Human Revolution and wow now I totally get where the ME3 writers stole- got their inspiration from... The ABC choices, the ethereal machine explaining the consequences of said choices, the hero prossibly sacrificing himself... except it made sense in DX because the whole game was about morality and humanity's evolution, it was like ME3 was just introducing a whole new theme in the last few minutes, and just threw away all the previous games' choices and storylines....

The problem here is that Deus Ex wasn't the originator of those "endings" either, but it sounds like you what to start a useless witch hunt.  Btw those have been themes in movies, comics, and novels way before the time of video games.

DaJe wrote...

Funny how they specifically said not to do the LOST thing and bring up more questions than answers at the end, but that's exactly what happened.
And then calling an obvious  rip-off "artistic integrity". 
The irony is so dense it almost hurts. This company doesn't deserve it's dedicated fans anymore.

Haters gonna hate especially when art is art whether you like it or not.  Btw ME3 didn't have a Lost ending especially when nobody was left on an island and living their lives on Purgatory in the ME series.  You also missed tthe answers to those "plot holes" in ME3 without the EC. 

chengthao wrote...

it shouldn't be considered "artistic integrity" when you STEAL the idea from another game

no integrity in that

Yet Deus Ex wasn't the originator and nothing is 100% original anyways especially when art is involved.  Btw I'm surprised you aren't going after Halo because of Ringworld or Binary Domain because of I Robot.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 30 juin 2012 - 03:33 .

[t1n0]

So, it's a ripoff bc there are 3 choices? As far as I know, there are only three choices to any foe. Kill, join or control. Well, if you're an existentialist, (or a Rush fan) you can say that "not chosing" is a choice.

[Grubas]

t1n0 wrote...

So, it's a ripoff bc there are 3 choices? As far as I know, there are only three choices to any foe. Kill, join or control. Well, if you're an existentialist, (or a Rush fan) you can say that "not chosing" is a choice.

At least its a generic solution. The 3 way ending has been proven in the Deus Ex Series again and again.

So what can one say, it has a broad audience appeal, so they thought that giving a proven and generic ending would serve the franchise more.