Aller au contenu

Photo

Adept Shotgun Roundup (Evi, Wraith, Graal, Claymore)


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
26 réponses à ce sujet

#1
capn233

capn233
  • Members
  • 17 402 messages
Because I was inspired in another thread I thought I would try out a few different shotguns on my Adept this afternoon.  I guess it is a good thing I was already doing a shotgun adept in single player.

This character started on Level 1, although the game was an import (edited the level down), and the difficulty is Insanity.  The next mission was Ardat-Yakshi Monastery.  This is prior to meeting the Quarians and is the third mission post Citadel Coup.  Current level is 35 at mission start with 5 levels of Biotic Mastery, with the Damage and Capacity evolution taken.  The character has the Kuwashii Visor (+5% weapon damage, 10% headshot damage) and N7 otherwise.  There is a 5% bonus to weapon damage from Intel.

The shotguns tested were the Eviscerator, Wraith, Graal and Claymore, all were at Level V.  Mods were High Caliber Barrel IV and Smart Choke III.  The exception was the Graal, which had the blade attachment equipped, although I do not think this would have substantially altered the results.  Weapons were paired with Hornet V equiped with ULM IV.

Here is the list of the weapons with cooldown bonus and the recharge time of Rank 1 Singularity, and "ammo":

Eviscerator +187% 1.55s 3/19
Wraith +187% 1.55s 2/14
Graal +137% 1.87s 3/16
Claymore +82% 2.41s 1/12

Note that these would be marginally improved without the Hornet (which wasn't actually used at any point in the mission). These times would also be marginally worsened with Barrier.

Eviscerator

Eviscerator could reliably one-shot a husk if aimed at the head, otherwise it required 2 body shots.

Against Cannibals it was possible to kill with a single shot to the head, although this takes care and it is more likely you will need 2.  It takes 3 body shots to kill a Cannibal from the side or rear.

Marauders can be killed with 3 shots if they are fully shielded, provided you land the majority of hits on the head.

It took 13 shots to drop the Banshees barriers without power use, and with minimal interference from the squad.  You will not be able to kill a Banshee with only Eviscerator shots at rank V without finding extra ammunition.

Overall this weapon is adequate.  If you use it as a supplement to powers it can serve you well, but it does not have the power to kill large enemies by itself.  This isn't surprising, and given the disparity between power damage and weapon damage you shouldn't be simply shooting everything anyway, even as a Soldier.

Wraith

This is the 250,000cr upgrade to the Eviscerator with more damage and one fewer shot per clip.

The Wraith reliably one-shotted husks at moderate to close range.

Against Cannibals the Wraith is slightly more reliable at killing in one-shot than the Eviscerator, and it will reliably drop them 2 from the front or side.

I couldn't for the life of me get to the Marauder in this mission so that it had full shields (Garrus or Liara invariably took a pot shot before they would move somewhere they couldn't fire from).  But with only 1 bar of shield missing the Wraith can 2 shot a Marauder if they are both headshots.

The Wraith took 10 shots to drop a Banshee's barrier.  9 is possible with mild squad assistance.  Like the Eviscerator, it is unlikely to kill a Banshee without squad assistance or spare thermal clips.

Overall this weapon is slightly more effective than the Eviscerator.

Graal

1 charged shot will kill a Husk.  Or 2 rapid uncharged shots.

Graal is the only one of the group that can reliably one-shot a Cannibal at long range (and that was without smart choke) provided you can land some of the shot on the head.  Alternatively, 2 rapid uncharged shots will kill a Cannibal if from the front or side.

1 charged shot will kill a fully shielded Marauder if aimed at the head.  Otherwise it takes 3 shots uncharged.

It took 8 charged shots to drop the barrier with minimal assistance from the squad.  It was difficult to keep them out of the fight after that, and in total with assistance it took 15 more shots to kill it.  This is of course higher than the ammo capacity of the Graal (I backed over some clips kiting it).  Otherwise it took 13 uncharged shots to drop the barrier.

Claymore

One-shots husks at close range.  Becomes less reliable as range increases due to shot spread.

At range it may take 3 shots to kill a Cannibal.  This would improve with higher level Smart Choke most likely.  At close range it kills Cannibals reliably in one-shot from any aspect.

You can one-shot a fully shielded Marauder, provided that the majority of the shot lands on the head.  However this is difficult outside of extreme close range and it is more likely to require 2 shots.

Because of the shot spread, you will find differences in number to remove a Banshee's barriers.  At a reasonably close engagement range it took 5 shots to drop the barrier (4 to get it to one bar).  With 13 shots there was 1 bar of armor remaining.  Most shots were taken just within her "Nova" attack range.  You may be able to kill her without spare clips if you were to get to point blank range.

All in all the most powerful single shot, but perhaps not the best all around.

Verdict

All of these weapons are more than adequate for enemies on Insanity.

Eviscerator sounds terrible but does adequate damage.  The issue is that it isn't quite as reliable as the others at putting down targets with full health.  However, when mixing in power use, this becomes less of a factor as you end up engaging targets that are weakened from biotic explosions, debuffs, or squad weapons fire.

At this level, and with these mods, currently I still do not believe that the Wraith is sufficiently superior to the Eviscerator to absolutely recommend it.  Of course if you don't want to spend you credits on something else, then go ahead and get it.

The Graal was better than I expected, and perhaps was the best all around "shotgun" in this test due to the accuracy and power at range.  It has the least capacity, but you could run the Spare Thermal Clip mod since Smart Choke isn't a requirement for it.  It is heavier than the above, but cooldowns are still more than reasonable.

Claymore is the hardest hitter, although perhaps it lags behind the Graal in flexibilty, and is the heaviest of the bunch.  However, even with the the longest cooldown times, it was still an effective option as it allowed me to fire the shotgun, use a squad power, then Shepard's power to cancel the reload and detonate the combo, and fire again.  If this is done it is perhaps the most effective against the large targets when combined with powers, despite the reduction in cooldown bonus.


Disclaimers

*Of course this wouldn't be able to be published in a scientific journal, but it is something to think about.

**Use whatever weapon you want, the game is beatable with all of them.

***The usefulness of each may vary with difficulty setting and current level in game.

Modifié par capn233, 27 avril 2012 - 09:54 .


#2
SwiftRevenant

SwiftRevenant
  • Members
  • 149 messages
I personally stuck with my Wraith X on my adept. Loved it.

#3
RedCaesar97

RedCaesar97
  • Members
  • 3 871 messages
Very interesting. Personally, I have not used all of these shotguns since you need to upgrade each shotgun individually. I always end up needlessly saving my credits until the end of the game before upgrading a bunch of weapons I will never use.

That being said, I have used both the Wraith (briefly) and Claymore on an Infiltrator. While the Wraith is very light, allowing you to carry one or two more weapons with little penalty, I personally found the Claymore more comfortable on that character. Even with the Spare Thermal Clip mod, I found the Wraith V ammo capacity terrible, but maybe that is because I am a lousy shot. It does reload much quicker than about half the other shotguns, so that is a plus.

I would have to test Wraith vs Eviscerator myself, but from your testing, it does not look like it is that much better than the Eviscerator to be worth the amount of credits. Especially--as you point out-- you would normally be using powers a lot more, making the damage differences more negligible.

#4
capn233

capn233
  • Members
  • 17 402 messages
I would like to hear more opinions since this isn't the end all and be all.

The enemies have discreet amounts of health and shields, so it would be interesting know if there was a different break even point somewhere that makes for a different outcome.

#5
Guest_Jessica1995_*

Guest_Jessica1995_*
  • Guests
Disciple w/ Phalanx, 200% cooldown. I'm very content =)

#6
known_hero

known_hero
  • Members
  • 859 messages

Jessica1995 wrote...

Disciple w/ Phalanx, 200% cooldown. I'm very content =)


You really don't need the phalanx because your biotics can handle all mid/long range enemies. I use the disciple for my MP human adept(on silver) and it's really fun build. Shockwave works very well with a shotgun because it staggers/drops general enemies. My disciple is a level 1 with high level mods and it's VERY effective. I can hold the line like a boss! Warp+shockwave(explosion)+disciple=BOSS. I literally held a Geth prime and two pyros off with that combo!

Plus, the disciple is the lightest shotgun so it's going to give you the fastest cool down.

Outside of the disciple, the evi and wraith are next in line due to their pop and move capabilities. The charge up shotguns are too slow(with significantly slow cool down) and the claymore is just too heavy.

Modifié par known_hero, 28 avril 2012 - 03:02 .


#7
known_hero

known_hero
  • Members
  • 859 messages
But that's just my opinion :)

#8
ashwind

ashwind
  • Members
  • 3 150 messages
I'd recommend trying the Shredder Mod and Smart Choke for Claymore.

Graal because it is already an accurate weapon, Barrel and Shredder.

Basically I always use Shredder Mods and I will use Barrel for accurate shotguns and choke for inaccurate shot guns. Shredder Moded Shottie will tear armored units like non-barrier Banshees, Brutes, etc apart like tissue paper.

[edit]
Ah, also notice OP is using an Adept. That might explain why my experience is different because I am playing Vanguard and Soldier spec for Weapon Damage upgrades. With high weapon damage upgrades, the power of the Claymore begins to shine. While other shotguns may leave the enemy alive with 1~2 blocks of health, the Claymore can consistantly decimate them with a single shot. A well placed headshot is always an instant kill.

If an enemy like Marauder is dead in a single shot, they cant continue to spray bullets at me, so it works great even from a defensive perspective. With a Vanguard that can always bring the Claymore to melee range, it is absolutely devastating.

Modifié par ashwind, 28 avril 2012 - 03:47 .


#9
capn233

capn233
  • Members
  • 17 402 messages

ashwind wrote...

Ah, also notice OP is using an Adept. That might explain why my experience is different because I am playing Vanguard and Soldier spec for Weapon Damage upgrades. With high weapon damage upgrades, the power of the Claymore begins to shine. While other shotguns may leave the enemy alive with 1~2 blocks of health, the Claymore can consistantly decimate them with a single shot. A well placed headshot is always an instant kill.

If an enemy like Marauder is dead in a single shot, they cant continue to spray bullets at me, so it works great even from a defensive perspective. With a Vanguard that can always bring the Claymore to melee range, it is absolutely devastating.

Actually, I prefer the Claymore, and this was supposed to be a Shockwave/Claymore Adept all along, but I wanted to retest some of these guns I haven't used in a while, specifically the Wraith.  Basically with these mods the Claymore was killing low tier units in one shot if they were relatively close.  Smart Choke V would have been better, but I wasn't far enough along to have all of them, I only had III.  One is on Geth Dreadnought, and there might be another one in a store.

You are correct though, if you have a passive or another power that increases weapon damage this sort of gets thrown out of wack.  In that case, I agree that Claymore is easier to get 1 hit kills on more enemy types, but the Eviscerator should become more "reliable" in one-shoting low tier units from multiple aspects.  If Wraith moves up to one-hit kill on mid tier units (like a Marauder) then it would distance itself from the Eviscerator in my mind.

I don't think the Graal is all that cumbersome to charge though.  But I have been playing around with it a bit in MP.  As a Vanguard the disadvantage is you can't hold the charged shot while you Charge, but if you aim directly at them as you go then it will fire the shot into them.  The biggest issue with it is that the time of flight is longer so it is harder to hit moving targets, especially on a high deflection shot.

The more opinions the better though.  I didn't pay attention to the ME3 section for a while, but initially I thought many didn't care for the Wraith.  Now it has a bigger following it seems.

Can anyone shed some light on the scaling of enemies with Shepard's level?  That is somewhat pertinent to this discussion as well, depending on if you are starting at level 1, 30, or NG+ at 60 vs the Level V or X cap.

#10
Guest_Jessica1995_*

Guest_Jessica1995_*
  • Guests

known_hero wrote...

Jessica1995 wrote...

Disciple w/ Phalanx, 200% cooldown. I'm very content =)


You really don't need the phalanx because your biotics can handle all mid/long range enemies. I use the disciple for my MP human adept(on silver) and it's really fun build. Shockwave works very well with a shotgun because it staggers/drops general enemies. My disciple is a level 1 with high level mods and it's VERY effective. I can hold the line like a boss! Warp+shockwave(explosion)+disciple=BOSS. I literally held a Geth prime and two pyros off with that combo!

Plus, the disciple is the lightest shotgun so it's going to give you the fastest cool down.

Outside of the disciple, the evi and wraith are next in line due to their pop and move capabilities. The charge up shotguns are too slow(with significantly slow cool down) and the claymore is just too heavy.


True, but it's a *Just in case* sort of thing. And I thought "I still have 200% cooldown so why not?" and I love it too =D not as good in ME2 IMO but still good.

#11
WaterWar

WaterWar
  • Members
  • 161 messages
I only use the disciple with my adept. As said before I use my powers for the longer ranges and the disciple is therefore serving as a backup if stuff gets close.

#12
tholloway93

tholloway93
  • Members
  • 393 messages
ive always liked using the wraith, but thats on my vanguard so it may vary seeing as charge and nova take down most of their health before 1 shotting with the wraith, SMG for backup

#13
RedCaesar97

RedCaesar97
  • Members
  • 3 871 messages

capn233 wrote...

ashwind wrote...

Ah, also notice OP is using an Adept. That might explain why my experience is different because I am playing Vanguard and Soldier spec for Weapon Damage upgrades.
...

...
You are correct though, if you have a passive or another power that increases weapon damage this sort of gets thrown out of wack.  


This is the problem you get once any +Weapon Damage bonuses get applied, either from passives, mods, powers, or armor bonuses. Strong guns get stronger and weaker guns get left behind, and you are left with Good Weapons and Bad Weapons, instead of Different But Relatively-Balanced Weapons. 

#14
CoffeeHolic93

CoffeeHolic93
  • Members
  • 1 613 messages

RedCaesar97 wrote...
This is the problem you get once any +Weapon Damage bonuses get applied, either from passives, mods, powers, or armor bonuses. Strong guns get stronger and weaker guns get left behind, and you are left with Good Weapons and Bad Weapons, instead of Different But Relatively-Balanced Weapons. 


At least you can work your way around that with powers/ammo powers.

For instance, SMG's are terribad versus armor, but I can tear through Brutes with the hurricane if I slap on Cryo Ammo w/armor weakening property.

And dare I mention the GPR w/explosive Incendiary?

If we're taking weapon damage bonuses into account we have to take other bonuses into account aswell (IMO). :)

Modifié par Mi-Chan, 28 avril 2012 - 04:13 .


#15
capn233

capn233
  • Members
  • 17 402 messages
Yes ammo powers count too. Fortunately adept doesn't have any so I didn't worry about it. :)

#16
Fortack

Fortack
  • Members
  • 2 609 messages
I am not likely to use anything but the Claymore on all my Sheps. By the Goddess this thing is amazing. Works very well with the Adept's fast recharge timers so you can spam powers while canceling reloads. BE are crap compared to the damage this baby can do :)

#17
JaegerBane

JaegerBane
  • Members
  • 5 441 messages

Fortack wrote...

I am not likely to use anything but the Claymore on all my Sheps. By the Goddess this thing is amazing. Works very well with the Adept's fast recharge timers so you can spam powers while canceling reloads. BE are crap compared to the damage this baby can do :)


Is it just me, or is the ME3 claymore... small? Like its been shrunk?

#18
Xariann

Xariann
  • Members
  • 331 messages
Capn, I am still at the start of my Adept run since I switched to Engineer (I just liked the idea of freezing people in a cold British day.) So for Adept I haven't really tried shotgun yet, as I tend to go with an AR (usually a light Vindicator) since I can take care of most of the stuff with Biotics, and I really only want some long range-ish things for Brutes and Banshees.

However I tried a load of shotguns on my shotgun and to be honest I regreted getting the Wraith. It wasn't bad, but there are other shotguns that can do the job (as you also shown in your original post) and cost less. I wound up using the Disciple a lot because of the weight/damage ratio, although it's terrible against armoured targets.

#19
termokanden

termokanden
  • Members
  • 5 818 messages
Interesting topic. I personally would use the Wraith simply for the better cooldown times, though I know it makes a limited difference in reality. As for the price, I don't really consider that an issue. Haven't had a lack of cash in ME3 so far except in the very beginning.

capn233 wrote...

*Of course this wouldn't be able to be published in a scientific journal


You'd be surprised :)

#20
capn233

capn233
  • Members
  • 17 402 messages

termokanden wrote...

Interesting topic. I personally would use the Wraith simply for the better cooldown times, though I know it makes a limited difference in reality. As for the price, I don't really consider that an issue. Haven't had a lack of cash in ME3 so far except in the very beginning.

You are right, perhaps the money isn't a big deal.  If you are selective about upgrades to the weapons you can buy a Spectre weapon after Citadel Coup I imagine.

You'd be surprised :)

Ha, that's only because I didn't make a chart or tables yet ;)

#21
The Spamming Troll

The Spamming Troll
  • Members
  • 6 252 messages

known_hero wrote...

Jessica1995 wrote...

Disciple w/ Phalanx, 200% cooldown. I'm very content =)


You really don't need the phalanx because your biotics can handle all mid/long range enemies. I use the disciple for my MP human adept(on silver) and it's really fun build.


heavy melee for the adept covers what the disciple can do, and probably more.

since my adepts gameplay strictly revolves around the mid range i tried to convince myself the AR would be the best option. that didnt last long. the first time i used the paladin was the last time i used any other gun. im currently equipping the geth pule rifle just because i have extra room for another gun to backup my pistol.

#22
CoffeeHolic93

CoffeeHolic93
  • Members
  • 1 613 messages

Xariann wrote...

Capn, I am still at the start of my Adept run since I switched to Engineer (I just liked the idea of freezing people in a cold British day.) So for Adept I haven't really tried shotgun yet, as I tend to go with an AR (usually a light Vindicator) since I can take care of most of the stuff with Biotics, and I really only want some long range-ish things for Brutes and Banshees.

However I tried a load of shotguns on my shotgun and to be honest I regreted getting the Wraith. It wasn't bad, but there are other shotguns that can do the job (as you also shown in your original post) and cost less. I wound up using the Disciple a lot because of the weight/damage ratio, although it's terrible against armoured targets.


I haven't used the Disciple yet, but the fact that it's terrible against armor shouldn't hold it back, if only because of the Armor Piercing mod which helps out a whole lot.

Hell, during one of my Infiltrator playthrough, my main gun was an SMG and it tore through armor easily enough. (With Cryo Ammo, but I'm certain that the AP mod is superior to Cryo Ammo when it comes to armor penetration/weakening percentages.)

#23
Xariann

Xariann
  • Members
  • 331 messages
Which SMG was it?

#24
JaegerBane

JaegerBane
  • Members
  • 5 441 messages

Xariann wrote...

Which SMG was it?


Hurricane or Hornet, I'd guess. The others simply aren't effective against armour.

#25
CoffeeHolic93

CoffeeHolic93
  • Members
  • 1 613 messages

JaegerBane wrote...

Xariann wrote...

Which SMG was it?


Hurricane or Hornet, I'd guess. The others simply aren't effective against armour.


Hurricane.

Although I wish it was the Shuriken. I wish. :crying: