443 réponses à ce sujet

[Reznore57]

We can talk about ME3 , actually and see that straight male are always the best served.
And steeeeeeeve was not giving subtle hint about his attraction for men , you find him crying upon a recording of his dead husband ,(in a public part of the ship , which i always thought was a little creepy )
And steve and the comm officer were not full romance , it was a bit like sebastien.
(steve was better flesh out than the woman gay romance which is mostly about a sex scene under the shower , with clothes on)
The only way for gay people to have a full romance was to pick kaidan or Liara , which are supposed to be bi.

I mean it's cool that the team of me3 provided more diversity , but mostly the gay romance are just there to be gay romances .And keep in check your email....
That's hardly a good example Imho.

[AkiKishi]

Reznore57 wrote...
I mean it's cool that the team of me3 provided more diversity , but mostly the gay romance are just there to be gay romances .And keep in check your email....
That's hardly a good example Imho.

Anyone not romancing Liara was pretty much in the same situation (without the email benifits too). Tali got her Ranock moment, but any LI's other than Liara were paid a lot less attention.

[HiroVoid]

Reznore57 wrote...
We can talk about ME3 , actually and see that straight male are always the best served.
And steeeeeeeve was not giving subtle hint about his attraction for men , you find him crying upon a recording of his dead husband ,(in a public part of the ship , which i always thought was a little creepy )
And steve and the comm officer were not full romance , it was a bit like sebastien.
(steve was better flesh out than the woman gay romance which is mostly about a sex scene under the shower , with clothes on)
The only way for gay people to have a full romance was to pick kaidan or Liara , which are supposed to be bi.

I mean it's cool that the team of me3 provided more diversity , but mostly the gay romance are just there to be gay romances .And keep in check your email....
That's hardly a good example Imho.

Hilariously, straight female Shepard got it the worst.

But yeah.  Ultimately, there's limited resources, so I don't mind that much since its a game in the end.  It also helps that romance as a whole really isn't the big drawing factor to me that it seems to many other people, so I don't mind as much.

[Wulfram]

I don't think Liara got all that much more romantic content than Garrus. More content, yes, but most of it is not romance stuff which produces a rather disconcertingly inconsistent experience if you are romancing her.

[Wulfram]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Do you mean with this comment the way the characters respond to you when you have them at 100% friendship or rivalry? Not sure what you want to state here.

I mean that to me that having multiple ways of interacting with a character adds to their depth.  Even if it means fewer lines on an individual playthrough.

[HiroVoid]

Dakota Strider wrote...
I have said it before in different ways, but I agree with most of what BobSmith is saying. If you are going to make a companion straight, gay or bi, keep them that way for every play through. Do not water them down, by making them do things differently depending upon who the protagonist's gender or preference is. That makes weaker characters, and weaker characters make weaker stories.

I'll honestly go with the fact that technically, the character should react differently to a protagonist's gender or preference.  Gender and preference are still parts of a character that'll cause people around you to act differently no matter how slightly.  I do like the idea of companions not going with the protagonist because of race as well such as dwarf, elf, and human, but again, it's a game.  If it were a book, a romance interest could be written somewhere else down the line, but you can only have so many companions in a game.

[Reznore57]

Yeah but there 's still a difference between a romance like Garrus and Steve /Traynor.
I think Traynor is the worst.
But my point is , it's the reality of thing , having gay /bi/straight romance available , because of ressources ,means some romances are gonna be a bit crappy.
How does it serves the character to just be there to be a gay romance?
I mean saying all bi water down character is nice but i think we had the example in ME3 that , putting character that are gay /bi/straight to fill a niche of specific romances can be even worst.

[Dutchess]

BobSmith101 wrote...

renjility wrote...

So if Anders, Merrill, and Fenris would have said: "Hi! I'm bi!" they would have been consistent and not shallow in your opinion?

Well Zevren for example talks about attitudes to his sexuality by society. That's one layer right there missing from a flip-flopping character.

That's a little more than "Hi , I'm bi".

Zevran is the only companion who clearly admits he enjoys the company of both men and women. Leliana was not that obvious about it. In fact, I didn't even realize she was bisexual and liked women as well in my first playthrough (her remark that she loved Marjoleine went right over my head xD). Only when she complimented my Warden on her hair and one of the possible reactions was that she was getting the wrong idea, I got the hint. 
Anyway, my point is that sexuality doesn't always have to be a major defining factor in a character. In Zevran and Isabela it is more obvious, because it suits the rest of their extravert personality. It makes sense that they are more open about it. Fenris, Anders and Merrill all have problems/things that take up their mind. They are very focused on that, so it makes sense that is what they mostly talk about. Besides, none of them talk to you with the idea they might hook up with you. There is no reason for them to start talking about what and who they fancy.

In DA2, you simply find out what the companion's attitude is by flirting with them or being flirted with (in Anders' case). The relationship does not become less meaningful because you found out they like you by flirting with them instead of them bringing sexuality in general up in the conversation. I think that is actually closer to real life than what you apparently want. 

An obligatory discussion about ******/bisexuality is hardly a layer that adds to characterization. 

[Sacred_Fantasy]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I don't know that you can say that "100%" of the lines for Leliana or Zevran go into "writing them that way." In fact, it's only through conversation between your Warden and either character that you find out that they have had not only lovers in the past, but lovers who were the same gender. Does that make them bisexual? Perhaps in the modern context and penchant for labeling. But did either character classify or identify themselves as such? Not to my recollection. You could technically say that both characters were hero-sexual, because on a base game mechanic level, they were characters set aside to be LIs, and then set to be available to a PC of either gender. They just happen to relate a lot of backstory.

Both characters were open to discuss those details however. That is something inherent to their characters - openness about their pasts. And so it makes sense for them to share that with the Warden when conversation veers towards personal and romantic matters.

That's why I care for them. Their openess to share with me is very important for me because only then I would know how to interact with them - properly.  

whykikyouwhy wrote...

In DA2, several characters were less willing to talk about their personal lives, their backstories, their families, their pasts. Aveline doesn't open up much at all, and is often rather curt about dropping the subject when the conversation becomes personal. Fenris has difficulty reconciling his past. Merrill doesn't speak about her love life. Varric is not inclined to tip his hand about certain things in the years prior to meeting Hawke. So you have characters who are simply not as open to divulging information about themselves. 

See that's the problem with DA 2's characters. If they're unwilling to be open and share their personal information then how are you suppose to know them better? What else can you ask them? What can you share with them?  

whykikyouwhy wrote...


Does that mean they "flip-flop?"

Yes they are.

whykikyouwhy wrote...



No. Just because you do not know all of their intimate details does not mean that they do not have any, or that there were not any lovers, liaisons to speak of.

And that's where the problem lies. Because you do not know them as much as you want to.

whykikyouwhy wrote...




Perhaps where the difficulty lies for you is that DA2 has characters who are as revealing as those in DA:O. Not so chatty about personal things. Does that lack of information make them weak or shallow or watered down?

Yes they are. "Not so much chatty about personal thngs" mean Not so much personal interaction. Therefore what is the point of having any meaninngful personal relationship? 

whykikyouwhy wrote...





IMO, no. Because discretion is really part of their character make-up. With the examples I listed above, you will receive more backstory, more information as the game progresses and if you continue to handle their quests and engage in conversation options.

See? That is exactly the problem with DA 2 companions and why they're shallow. Their quest centric's dialogue focusing on "Questioning Believe," are so repetative, they don't know what else to talk about - to the point I just wish them to shut up. It's so annoying listening to the same things over and over and over again for more than 20+ hours gameplay length. Luckily, their personal quest are optional otherwise I would never completed any of my playthroughs.

 I wonder how on earth can someone fall in love with this kind of conversation. Honestly, I'd rather talk to my mabari dog. At least I know my mabari cannot communicate on personal level. BioWare should stop doing this. Bring back proper lady and gentleman who can talk properly about their feeling and less being a rigid quest centric character. .    

[nightscrawl]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Or you happen to meet straight people who become bisexual because of contact with you?

I think the "hero" issue is a problem for many aspects of any game, not just the romances, as was discussed at length in this interesting thread.

The problem I think is balancing story elements so they are somewhat credible, but at the same time allowing the player and the PC to grow together so the fact of saving the world actually seems reasonable or plausible when done by this person. DAO's hero, by default of story circumstances leaving the PC as only one of two surviving Wardens in all of Ferelden, set it up well. Alistair deferred to you because it was in his nature to do so, so you are the one who rounded up all the allies, and consequently became the leader others looked to in the end, leading to your becoming Warden Commander in Amaranthine as a result of your experiences during the Blight.

Regarding the romances, as players outside of the game we know that the devs designed and wrote these LIs to potentially be in a relationship with either gender of Hawke. However, Hawke doesn't know that, and I don't think that it's really presented in the way of them "becoming bisexual because of contact with" Hawke since there are several scenarios in dialogue with all of the companions where flirting never happens or is ever mentioned/suggested.

BobSmith101 wrote...

I look at it like a pie. If you need to share the pie, then you get less pie. I'd rather have different flavours of pie rather than the same pie cut into slices.

For me, it comes down to wanting to have a taste of all of the flavors, even if it means having less pie in the end (which I don't really think it does, and your pie analogy is only somewhat accurate since 4 slices of 1/4 pie amount to a whole pie, but that is just a picky quibble on my part.)

At any rate, I like that I can play the character I want, usually female, and am able to choose the person I want to romance for whatever reason: I like the NPC (either their personal story or personality, or just like looking/listening to them), or I want to experience another aspect of the game while still playing the PC I want to play. I can't do that with DAO. If for some reason I wanted to romance Morrigan, I am forced into making a male character that I don't want simply to see her romance.

When you talk of weaker characters, are you only referring to being irritated at the inconsistency between plays (which I think only applies to Anders, to be honest)? Would it have been better if the characters were written as strictly Hawke-sexual, ie 100% for the gender of Hawke, so that it seemed they were straight or gay depending on your Hawke, rather than as bi? Or do you only consider them as bi because you have outside knowledge that they have the possibility of being romanced by both genders (aside from Isabela). I really don't think that the non-Isabela LIs were written as weaker characters. This suggests that straight, homosexual, and bisexual persons somehow go about romance in a different way, when I don't think that is the case (this is not meant as an insulting statement to you btw -- /sigh sometimes text is a difficult medium).


Btw, people need to get over using these words. We are on an internet forum, words are all we have to describe what we're talking about. We need to be clear and concise in order to convey meaning and have an intelligent conversation. Yes, I understand that these are relatively new terms, yes I understand that the characters don't label themselves as such. How are we supposed to have any sort of discussion if we don't use descriptive words? When we say "straight" we know that the person is attracted to the opposite sex. That's all. Do "label opponents" want us instead to write out "have the possibility of being romanced by either sex" every single time instead of using the word "bi"? That would get tedious. And old. Real fast.

[AkiKishi]

renjility wrote...
Zevran is the only companion who clearly admits he enjoys the company of both men and women. Leliana was not that obvious about it. In fact, I didn't even realize she was bisexual and liked women as well in my first playthrough (her remark that she loved Marjoleine went right over my head xD). Only when she complimented my Warden on her hair and one of the possible reactions was that she was getting the wrong idea, I got the hint. 
Anyway, my point is that sexuality doesn't always have to be a major defining factor in a character. In Zevran and Isabela it is more obvious, because it suits the rest of their extravert personality. It makes sense that they are more open about it. Fenris, Anders and Merrill all have problems/things that take up their mind. They are very focused on that, so it makes sense that is what they mostly talk about. Besides, none of them talk to you with the idea they might hook up with you. There is no reason for them to start talking about what and who they fancy. 

I spotted Leliana a mile off and I'm a guy  

Not really talking about defining factors here, but depth and specific writing vs generic. Alistairs Templar training would be another example.

[HiroVoid]

renjility wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

renjility wrote...

So if Anders, Merrill, and Fenris would have said: "Hi! I'm bi!" they would have been consistent and not shallow in your opinion?

Well Zevren for example talks about attitudes to his sexuality by society. That's one layer right there missing from a flip-flopping character.

That's a little more than "Hi , I'm bi".

Zevran is the only companion who clearly admits he enjoys the company of both men and women. Leliana was not that obvious about it. In fact, I didn't even realize she was bisexual and liked women as well in my first playthrough (her remark that she loved Marjoleine went right over my head xD). Only when she complimented my Warden on her hair and one of the possible reactions was that she was getting the wrong idea, I got the hint. 
Anyway, my point is that sexuality doesn't always have to be a major defining factor in a character. In Zevran and Isabela it is more obvious, because it suits the rest of their extravert personality. It makes sense that they are more open about it. Fenris, Anders and Merrill all have problems/things that take up their mind. They are very focused on that, so it makes sense that is what they mostly talk about. Besides, none of them talk to you with the idea they might hook up with you. There is no reason for them to start talking about what and who they fancy.

In DA2, you simply find out what the companion's attitude is by flirting with them or being flirted with (in Anders' case). The relationship does not become less meaningful because you found out they like you by flirting with them instead of them bringing sexuality in general up in the conversation. I think that is actually closer to real life than what you apparently want. 

An obligatory discussion about ******/bisexuality is hardly a layer that adds to characterization. 

I LOVED Leliana for that subtlety I always saw. I actually think I remember her being more open or trying to get a romance with a female warden more quickly then a male warden.

Also, I can see what people can also mean by the topic of them being both interested in men and women comes up if it includes past relationships specifically.  While they may not mention it immideatly, you would still think it would come up in coversation at some point such as if a Warden were to start asking about Anders' past.  But.....Again, it's a game.  You're not going to get those hours of conversation you can get with both a friend and a romantic partner in real life.  .....I suppose you can always try fanfiction.

[brushyourteeth]

This is only sort of related, but I actually think it would be interesting to have a companion/LI who was surprised to be attracted to your protagonist.

Say you'd been the first woman who ever caught Fenris or Aveline's eye or the first man to catch Merrill or Sebastian's. I find that really compelling.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 30 mai 2012 - 03:49 .

[syllogi]

David Gaider wrote...

If you didn't like how the character was written, that's fine... but to ascribe it to the fact they didn't discuss their past relationships enough, or are somehow baffled that Anders would not mention his relationship with a man to a woman (in what world would someone do this?) or that bisexuality (in deed or by virtue of their natural preference) is somehow inherently inconsistent unless the person in question actively mentions past experiences, says more about you that it says about "watered-down characters".

Regarding Anders' mention of Karl only to male characters...I didn't find it odd or offputting that Steve Cortez, for example, confided in my female Shepard about the death of his husband.  I can see how a conversation with a female Hawke about Anders' relationship with Karl could have been handled, without it seeming like an unnecessary info dump.  For me, it felt like I missed out on an opportunity for bonding with Anders with my female character, rather than missing out on important information regarding his past sexual partners (really, it's probably better that we don't have that info, when it comes to pre-DA2 Anders...).  Just my two cents about that one thing, I was very happy with how romances were handled in DA2 otherwise.

[nightscrawl]

robertthebard wrote...

Fenris:  A former slave, to a Tevinter mage, who implies that he's had sexual relations with Fenris.  It's not hard to believe that his sexuality would stem from that, so we can say bi.

Woah there. This can branch off into all sorts of discussion about nature versus nurture and how it relates to sexuality and so forth, which should stay out of this thread. While I've taken the same implication from his statement, anything Danarius would have done would be rape. That does NOT COUNT. You have only to point to Fenris's visceral reaction at Danarius's statement to see that.

David Gaider wrote...

... or are somehow baffled that Anders would not mention his relationship with a man to a woman (in what world would someone do this?)...

Oooh I didn't see that he responded to my main issue... aaand now he's not reading the thread anymore, oh well, I'll post anyway.

So, is this a confirmation that the relationship with Karl did take place for both genders of Hawke? Of course it's perfectly reasonable that Anders wouldn't tell a woman this, especially if he is attracted to said woman. There mere fact that he does it in the first place makes it significant to him, which makes it significant to you, the writers.

And again, this is only true of Anders and no one else. In the conversation that this occurs you've only just met Anders. Why would he reveal this to a practical stranger, even if a man? If Anders is (also) attracted to men, regardless of Hawke's gender, the only reason I could see for mentioning this fact to male Hawke would be that he (Anders) has an attraction to Hawke and puts these feelers out there to see how male Hawke responds. To me, this is further bolstered by the fact that Anders specifically asks Hawke if he's "bothered" by it. If Hawke responds positively then Anders knows that there is a potential of reciprocation in the future, which we see in Act 2.

I can see wanting to make different romance lines for each gender. They respond differently in such situations, right? Why did the difference have to be so dramatic as to include a personal revelation about Anders's past?

I suppose it just comes down to the fact that I don't think it's fair that my female Hawke didn't get to also learn this about Anders. And that's all. Since DG finally responded about my main issue, I suppose I'm done with it now.


[edit]
I'm editing this post because it's been pointed out to me that I'm not being clear in how I'm looking at it. I'm not looking at this from a woman's POV, neither am I looking at this from female Hawke's POV. My perspective is that of a gamer who wants to see all the game has to offer no matter the gender I choose to play as, and I feel that content is restricted to male Hawke, which I find irritating. To me, it's the same thing as not wanting to play a male character just so I can romance Morrigan.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 30 mai 2012 - 09:14 .

[AkiKishi]

brushyourteeth wrote...

This is only sort of related, but I actually think it would be interesting to have a companion/LI who was surprised to be attracted to your protagonist.

Say you'd been the first woman who ever caught Fenris or Aveline's eye or the first man to catch Merrill or Sebastian's. I find that really compelling.

I think you can do so much more with the characters when you write them with specific intent.

Dave said the advantage of "everyone is bi" is versitility. Can't really argue with that. But it's a high price that cuts out many interesting situations like the one you suggested, which would need it's own script. 

 

Modifié par BobSmith101, 30 mai 2012 - 03:58 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Basically, it boils down to what people are looking for in the game they are playing, and what their expectations are. Some folks want NPCs who divulge every detail about their lives. Who provide copious amounts of backstory. Perhaps even down to the names of former lovers?

And yet, real people (who these characters are written to be somewhat similar to so as to better resonate and be fleshed out) have varying degrees of comfort with regard to their intimate details. Friends, family, and even partners may still not reveal all of their heart's desires to their loved ones - not for lack of love or trust, but because they may not feel comfortable to broach the subject(s) themselves. That doesn't make them cheap or shallow individuals - rather, that shows the multitude of layers that they possess. 

Trust and being comfortable enough to talk to someone about an array of topics is something that doesn't come easy for some people. That's very human and real. So it seems to me that when characters are written and crafted to reflect those very human tendencies, they are much more vivid and believable.

Disliking how characters were written or how they were utilized in a game is up to the individual player. And clearly some folks felt like the companions in DA2 were "lacking" in some respect. But I have long felt that a lot of care and attention was put into their development and their writing.

[Reznore57]

I would agree that I though da2 lacked some more personal interaction with the companions.
Specialy when you're like me , you did all the questionning belief quests as soon as possible .Sometimes it felt that nobody was talking to me for years , snif.
But no i don't think the companions were more "shallow" for whatever reason i thought they felt more "alive " than DAO ones , probably because i thought the party banter were better and the companions seems to have more interaction as a group ( but behind your back , sadly).

I guess i found out about the companions more in the party banters than anything else.
Maybe it wasn't enough under our pc nose to have a real impact...I don't know.

[Wulfram]

Given the limited amount of conversations we have with DA2 companions, I can't see any I'd have been prepared to scrap to have a conversation about one of their ex-lovers.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Basically, it boils down to what people are looking for in the game they are playing, and what their expectations are. Some folks want NPCs who divulge every detail about their lives. Who provide copious amounts of backstory. Perhaps even down to the names of former lovers?

And yet, real people (who these characters are written to be somewhat similar to so as to better resonate and be fleshed out) have varying degrees of comfort with regard to their intimate details. Friends, family, and even partners may still not reveal all of their heart's desires to their loved ones - not for lack of love or trust, but because they may not feel comfortable to broach the subject(s) themselves. That doesn't make them cheap or shallow individuals - rather, that shows the multitude of layers that they possess.

Correct. But your close friends, families, lovers and spouse do reveal who their family are and how they grow up. That's vital information is never keep hidden from you. Not so much for the case of casual friends since it's not important for you or them to know each other intimately. And all DA 2 companions belong to this category. They're casual friends designed not to be intimated.
 

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Trust and being comfortable enough to talk to someone about an array of topics is something that doesn't come easy for some people.

It works both ways. It something that doesn't come easy for my character as well. If romanceable companions do not trust my character then why should I. I too can be "difficult". So it's all boil down to, if you are not willing to converse your personal details then what is the point of intimacy and serious relationship?

whykikyouwhy wrote...


That's very human and real. So it seems to me that when characters are written and crafted to reflect those very human tendencies, they are much more vivid and believable.

They're so much believable to be written as non-romancable companions like Aveline and Varric. They can be your close friends but as love interest? hmmm... They have to act more like a very human and real love interest. Otherwise don't give me those heart icon option. Just give me quest icon instead. So I know I don't have to invest much on heart icons but focus more on quest itself. No personal commitment whatsoever. It's all pure job related relationship.

whykikyouwhy wrote...



Disliking how characters were written or how they were utilized in a game is up to the individual player. And clearly some folks felt like the companions in DA2 were "lacking" in some respect. But I have long felt that a lot of care and attention was put into their development and their writing.

Care and attention should be invest on something else like personal information rather repeating the same dialogue characteristic over and over again. It's a waste of resources to have, for example, Anders repeating the dialogue lines, how much he hate the templars for 20+ hours when he should be mentioning how the heck did he survived Virgil keep in Awakening - which is far more interesting.  

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 30 mai 2012 - 04:24 .

[brushyourteeth]

BobSmith101 wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

This is only sort of related, but I actually think it would be interesting to have a companion/LI who was surprised to be attracted to your protagonist.

Say you'd been the first woman who ever caught Fenris or Aveline's eye or the first man to catch Merrill or Sebastian's. I find that really compelling.

I think you can do so much more with the characters when you write them with specific intent.

Dave said the advantage of "everyone is bi" is versitility. Can't really argue with that. But it's a high price that cuts out many interesting situations like the one you suggested, which would need it's own script. 

I totally understand Mr. Gaider's point, but I think the benefit to this idea is that it allows a love interest to serve the same purpose in a new and interesting way.

Mr. Gaider will say over and over again until we accept it that Thedas sexuality isn't really like real life sexuality - that people may not discuss it simply because they don't find it worth discussing, and I can totally buy into that. But Anders goes out of his way to mention to MHawke that he'd never been with a man before Karl, and your female Warden shows some surprise at finding that Leliana is into women, so even if it isn't taboo in Thedas it still isn't universally expected either. Furthermore you have characters in DA:O that are definitely straight, so it's not as if we can now say that everyone in Thedas is bisexual. I think being the first of your gender to inspire interest in one of your companions would be a charming and realistic way to mix things up, while still allowing everyone to have a shot at romancing the same characters.

[Reznore57]

Pc view on sexuality may simply differ depending on where you're from.
Leliana and Zevran , sexuality was part of their job.In circle , sexuality is almost forbidden and only talked behind closed door.For noble dwarf , the need to reproduce is important so I guess they would encourage straight relashionship.Being a casteless dwarf , i guess nobody would care who you would touch.City elves seems to also have benefit from mariage , maybe not having tons of kids (so maybe same sex affair out of wedlock is accepted.)...
Among the Grey warden , in The Calling , there's a gay couple.They're discreet about it but it's known among their fellow wardens and nobody cares....

[Reznore57]

edit: sorry double post.

Modifié par Reznore57, 30 mai 2012 - 04:39 .