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[Sylvius the Mad]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Which do you find more incredulous. That you happen to meet a group of people who are all bisexual? Or you happen to meet straight people who become bisexual because of contact with you?

Those are both extremely unlikely, but neither one describes the reality within a DA2 playthrough.

Hawke has no reason to believe Anders is bi.  Hawke has no reason to believe Fenris is bi.  Hawlke has no reason to believe Merrill is bi. 

So why do you think they're bi?  Within each playthrough, those three characters have a sexual orientation that makes them compatible with Hawke.  You would only have reason to call them bi if you assumed that the Fenris from one playthrough was exactly the same Fenris as in another playthrough, and that's an unnecessary assumption.

Since we are not in character here. We know the characters are written to flip-flop which is something that many of us see as bad for any number of different reasons.

The characters do not flip-flop.  The characters are written to have a specific orientation in each playthrough.  That orientation is simply always compatible with Hawke.

[Sylvius the Mad]

HiroVoid wrote...

Sylvius is talking about this from a roleplaying perspective. You can see what'll happen, but that doesn't mean your character has to. I still do playthroughs in DAO doing different paths in the Connor storyline even though there's one path that has absolutely no negative consequences.....that was kind of a cop out. There should have at least been casualties.

I love the win-win option, because it's also the least liklely to succeed (from an in-character perspective).  So only the hopeless wishcaster is ever going to try for it, and when such an obvious longshot works out it's a massive triumph.  It's one of DAO's best moments, I think.

Most of my DAO characters have not selected it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

David Gaider wrote...

Dakota Strider wrote...
I have said it before in different ways, but I agree with most of what BobSmith is saying. If you are going to make a companion straight, gay or bi, keep them that way for every play through. Do not water them down, by making them do things differently depending upon who the protagonist's gender or preference is. That makes weaker characters, and weaker characters make weaker stories.

Sorry, but you guys can say this until you're blue in the face. But just saying it doesn't make it true.

I'm 100% with David on this one. His position makes perfect sense, and it doesn't harm the game in any way.

[brushyourteeth]

My problem with interpreting Thedas sexuality has always been that I come at it from a straight-unti-proven-gay mentality. It's taken me months on this forum of not just reading, but actually listening to Mr. Gaider's comments to realize this. Whether neutral or bad, that's just the head space I've been living in.

The problem is that I guess that just isn't how Thedas works. Thedans don't assume that other Thedans are straight until they're proven gay. It's not uncommon to be bi. It's not scandalous to fall in love with anyone within your specific race, unless you have family obligations from being a noble or whatever. When I play through DAII it's easy to believe that Anders is straight, Fenris is straight, Isabela is bi, and Merrill is a lesbian, because Anders never talks about men, Fenris never talks about men, Isabela talks about enjoying the company of both, and Merrill banters to other companions that she's into me but never says anything about being interested in men.

Just because Anders and Fenris don't tell me/my FHawke that they're open to being with men doesn't mean they're not. And just because they'd be equally attracted to a male Hawke doesn't mean their sexuality suddenly changes between playthroughs.

But then again maybe it actually does. I as the player feel uncomfortable not knowing. But since that's how the world works, there's little in my power that I can do to change it. I'm just learning to accept that.

[AkiKishi]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Which do you find more incredulous. That you happen to meet a group of people who are all bisexual? Or you happen to meet straight people who become bisexual because of contact with you?

Those are both extremely unlikely, but neither one describes the reality within a DA2 playthrough.

Hawke has no reason to believe Anders is bi.  Hawke has no reason to believe Fenris is bi.  Hawlke has no reason to believe Merrill is bi. 

So why do you think they're bi?  Within each playthrough, those three characters have a sexual orientation that makes them compatible with Hawke.  You would only have reason to call them bi if you assumed that the Fenris from one playthrough was exactly the same Fenris as in another playthrough, and that's an unnecessary assumption.

Since we are not in character here. We know the characters are written to flip-flop which is something that many of us see as bad for any number of different reasons.

The characters do not flip-flop.  The characters are written to have a specific orientation in each playthrough.  That orientation is simply always compatible with Hawke.

I really thought the bit about not being in character would have given it away. I don't want shallow characters because they are being sliced up into parts for specific states.

[Sylvius the Mad]

BobSmith101 wrote...

I really thought the bit about not being in character would have given it away. I don't want shallow characters because they are being sliced up into parts for specific states.

But it doesn't matter how you perceive the characters.  It matters how Hawke perceives the characters.

I'll say again, BioWare should not care if you ruin the game for yourself by metagaming it.  If your perception of the characters is harmed by your metagame awareness that they would have a different orientation is Hawke had a different gender, that's a problem of your manufacture.

And how are they sliced up?  You get the same Fenris romance content regardless of Hawke's gender.  It's not like you only get the straight content when he's straight and the gay content when he's gay.  It's all the same content - all that changes is whether the content is straight or gay.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Right, so are you agreeing the quoted statement or what he said earlier in this thread about the benefits of setting sexuality?

This one.  I see no benefit to setting sexuality.

[AkiKishi]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

I really thought the bit about not being in character would have given it away. I don't want shallow characters because they are being sliced up into parts for specific states.

But it doesn't matter how you perceive the characters.  It matters how Hawke perceives the characters.

I'll say again, BioWare should not care if you ruin the game for yourself by metagaming it.  If your perception of the characters is harmed by your metagame awareness that they would have a different orientation is Hawke had a different gender, that's a problem of your manufacture.

And how are they sliced up?  You get the same Fenris romance content regardless of Hawke's gender.  It's not like you only get the straight content when he's straight and the gay content when he's gay.  It's all the same content - all that changes is whether the content is straight or gay.

When I can pay for the game with Hawkes money I might care.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I don't understand what you think the problem is. What I see is you ruining the game for yourself by maintaining awareness that it's a game while you play it.

Stop doing that, and the problem goes away.

[AkiKishi]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't understand what you think the problem is. What I see is you ruining the game for yourself by maintaining awareness that it's a game while you play it.

Stop doing that, and the problem goes away.

No I just means the problem changes from shallow people Hawke meets compared to Bob knowing the reason why they are shallow and pointing out that previously this was not the case.

By your logic you could excuse any sort of low standard. Not buying into your self dellusion sorry.

[robertthebard]

nightscrawl wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Fenris:  A former slave, to a Tevinter mage, who implies that he's had sexual relations with Fenris.  It's not hard to believe that his sexuality would stem from that, so we can say bi.

Woah there. This can branch off into all sorts of discussion about nature versus nurture and how it relates to sexuality and so forth, which should stay out of this thread. While I've taken the same implication from his statement, anything Danarius would have done would be rape. That does NOT COUNT. You have only to point to Fenris's visceral reaction at Danarius's statement to see that.

I don't disagree.  It is, however, relevant, in that we don't know the approximate age at which Fenris was branded with the marks, and made a slave to the whims of his master.  When it's all you know, it's all you know.  Stockholm Syndrome may even play a role, as we know that even after Fenris had his first taste of remembered freedom, he still bowed to his master's will.  I don't want to take this too deep though, it's just a possibility that can't be ignored.

David Gaider wrote...

... or are somehow baffled that Anders would not mention his relationship with a man to a woman (in what world would someone do this?)...

Oooh I didn't see that he responded to my main issue... aaand now he's not reading the thread anymore, oh well, I'll post anyway.

So, is this a confirmation that the relationship with Karl did take place for both genders of Hawke? Of course it's perfectly reasonable that Anders wouldn't tell a woman this, especially if he is attracted to said woman. There mere fact that he does it in the first place makes it significant to him, which makes it significant to you, the writers.

And again, this is only true of Anders and no one else. In the conversation that this occurs you've only just met Anders. Why would he reveal this to a practical stranger, even if a man? If Anders is (also) attracted to men, regardless of Hawke's gender, the only reason I could see for mentioning this fact to male Hawke would be that he (Anders) has an attraction to Hawke and puts these feelers out there to see how male Hawke responds. To me, this is further bolstered by the fact that Anders specifically asks Hawke if he's "bothered" by it. If Hawke responds positively then Anders knows that there is a potential of reciprocation in the future, which we see in Act 2.

I can see wanting to make different romance lines for each gender. They respond differently in such situations, right? Why did the difference have to be so dramatic as to include a personal revelation about Anders's past?

I suppose it just comes down to the fact that I don't think it's fair that my female Hawke didn't get to also learn this about Anders. And that's all. Since DG finally responded about my main issue, I suppose I'm done with it now.

We found common ground on this earlier, and I see you're rehashing it here.  I do believe that's the reason it was written that way.  The snip from DG's post kind of supports that hypothesis.  I still don't see that as making him any shallower than any (and I previously said man, but I'm going to revamp that) person trying to get laid.  I don't get how multidimensional == shallow.

Most of the romance lines are not gender specific.  Therefore they are written to be herosexual in nature.  This was also true in Origins, depending on who was romanced.  Leliana does not compliment the mWarden on his hair, which by definition in this thread would mean she was shallow, since fWarden got lines that mWarden didn't, but the same people throwing around shallow have stated otherwise.  To me, this conversation is more "I miss my Origins LI" than anything else.

Modifié par robertthebard, 30 mai 2012 - 05:40 .

[robertthebard]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

I really thought the bit about not being in character would have given it away. I don't want shallow characters because they are being sliced up into parts for specific states.

But it doesn't matter how you perceive the characters.  It matters how Hawke perceives the characters.

I'll say again, BioWare should not care if you ruin the game for yourself by metagaming it.  If your perception of the characters is harmed by your metagame awareness that they would have a different orientation is Hawke had a different gender, that's a problem of your manufacture.

And how are they sliced up?  You get the same Fenris romance content regardless of Hawke's gender.  It's not like you only get the straight content when he's straight and the gay content when he's gay.  It's all the same content - all that changes is whether the content is straight or gay.

I've been trying to make this point for multiple pages, and it's becoming not worth the effort.  People make a conscious effort to ruin the game for themselves, and then blame everyone and their uncle for it.  It's too bad, really, but as it's not an MMO, and I don't have to game with them, I don't care.

[AkiKishi]

robertthebard wrote...
"I miss my Origins LI" than anything else.

Well let's see we went from well rounded well written Origins to DA2. With changes that had nothing to do with the game world and letting everyone romance everyone romanceable.

Dave as much as said you get variety. But he did not explicitly state the negatives. But the statement about wanting to do fixed characters if resources allow is a bit of a give away.

[robertthebard]

BobSmith101 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
"I miss my Origins LI" than anything else.

Well let's see we went from well rounded well written Origins to DA2. With changes that had nothing to do with the game world and letting everyone romance everyone romanceable.

Dave as much as said you get variety. But he did not explicitly state the negatives. But the statement about wanting to do fixed characters if resources allow is a bit of a give away.

There's a simple solution to your issue, load up a save game of Origins.  I have a save at Leliana's song, and when I want to hear it, I load it up, I don't come to the forums saying they should make that happen any time I want in camp.

[AkiKishi]

robertthebard wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
"I miss my Origins LI" than anything else.

Well let's see we went from well rounded well written Origins to DA2. With changes that had nothing to do with the game world and letting everyone romance everyone romanceable.

Dave as much as said you get variety. But he did not explicitly state the negatives. But the statement about wanting to do fixed characters if resources allow is a bit of a give away.

There's a simple solution to your issue, load up a save game of Origins.  I have a save at Leliana's song, and when I want to hear it, I load it up, I don't come to the forums saying they should make that happen any time I want in camp.

In the words of Adam Jensen "How is that a solution"

[Provi-dance]

David Gaider wrote...

 or are somehow baffled that Anders would not mention his relationship with a man to a woman (in what world would someone do this?)

This reeks of (internalized) homophobia, even though the author is probably not aware of it.

[robertthebard]

BobSmith101 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
"I miss my Origins LI" than anything else.

Well let's see we went from well rounded well written Origins to DA2. With changes that had nothing to do with the game world and letting everyone romance everyone romanceable.

Dave as much as said you get variety. But he did not explicitly state the negatives. But the statement about wanting to do fixed characters if resources allow is a bit of a give away.

There's a simple solution to your issue, load up a save game of Origins.  I have a save at Leliana's song, and when I want to hear it, I load it up, I don't come to the forums saying they should make that happen any time I want in camp.

In the words of Adam Jensen "How is that a solution"

You get to have all your pie?  I do love your cherrypicking style though.  You should teach a class.  It seems like anything that may counter what you believe is to be ignored, so I'll ask again:

Since the majority of the romance dialogs are not gender specific, how is one line, which can easily be attributed to "feeling out" mHawke by Anders to see if he's interested make LI's shallow?  Since, as has been pointed out, Fenris is exactly the same regardless of gender, how are LI's shallow?  If it's going to be more of "because I said so", please feel free to cherry pick my pie response, and go on from there.

[Sylvius the Mad]

BobSmith101 wrote...


No I just means the problem changes from shallow people Hawke meets compared to Bob knowing the reason why they are shallow and pointing out that previously this was not the case.

That's not the reason they're shallow.

Yes, the DA2 companions aren't very interesting.  I'll totally grant that.  I think DA2 is a terrible game.

But you're blaming that shallowness on the flexible sexuality, and there's simply no justification for that.

[brushyourteeth]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...


No I just means the problem changes from shallow people Hawke meets compared to Bob knowing the reason why they are shallow and pointing out that previously this was not the case.

That's not the reason they're shallow.

Yes, the DA2 companions aren't very interesting.  I'll totally grant that.  I think DA2 is a terrible game.

But you're blaming that shallowness on the flexible sexuality, and there's simply no justification for that.

Is it actually flexible though? I remember way back reading from one of the devs that Anders' sexuality was subjective depending on Hawke's gender. That the only reason he doesn't bring up Karl if you're a female is because Karl didn't happen if you're a female.

Now we're hearing that all the DAII companions are open to both genders for romance, which is fine. But if the trend continues in the series and everyone we meet is bi that will be a little weird because

A.) the world never comes out and says/implies that most people we meet will be, and

B.) from our discussions with Zevran ("I have been with men. Does that bother you?") and Leliana ("what if I told you I did enjoy the company of women, very much in fact?") we've learned that sexuality is actually something people talk about in Thedas and not something everyone takes for granted as being open and unlimited by individual preference or societal expectations. Also as someone mentioned, there is a gay couple within the Wardens in "The Calling" and they certainly act as if they feel judged/persecuted for it.

I'm really at a place where I'm fine with whatever the devs decide on this matter, but having no idea whether the companions' past and preferences change with my gender (which is still weird for me) or whether they were actually bi is a mystery I'd rather have a definitive answer to, even if only so we can quit talking about it.

For me it's now more of an issue of our world being inconsistent than of our companions being inconsistant.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 30 mai 2012 - 06:36 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Filament wrote...

I'm pretty sure Gaider has said their past history stays the same regardless of your gender choice.

If the content doesn't appear in the game, then it doesn't matter what David says.  The content of the game isn't bound by his perception of it any more than it's bound by mine.

[Dave of Canada]

Still keeping my controversial opinion of having everyone be bisexual, however the relationship's difficulties differ based off your gender. Noble-borne woman's parents don't mind if she's sleeping with a female protagonist as there's no possible heir that can be formed from the relationship while having a male protagonist you're dealing with the parents disapproving of you. ect.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 30 mai 2012 - 07:09 .