443 réponses à ce sujet

[Reznore57]

If i were David Gaider , I will be writing a romance where the LI at the very end would stab you , and mocks you while you're drowning in your own blood.
Another when you can get married and your pc cheat on you , and tell how bad you are in bed.
Another that involves veneral disease.
And a really Hot companion totally LI material , that tell you sorry but i like sheep better.

And then i would go mouhahaha.

[brushyourteeth]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Filament wrote...

I'm pretty sure Gaider has said their past history stays the same regardless of your gender choice.

If the content doesn't appear in the game, then it doesn't matter what David says.  The content of the game isn't bound by his perception of it any more than it's bound by mine.

Ugh.

Okay, if that's the way we're going to approach this subject, then it's officially weird that all four of our love interests in DAII are into both genders, whether they tell you about it or not. Because the world has set up an environment through Zevran and Leliana's dialogues where it's unusual to be interested in the same gender.

Thinking outside the game, however, it makes sense that the devs continue to make every LI accessible to each gender for the sake of inclusion and delegation of resources.

[brushyourteeth]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Still keeping my controversial opinion of having everyone be bisexual, however the relationship's difficulties differ based off your gender. Noble-borne woman's parents don't mind if she's sleeping with a female protagonist as there's no possible heir that can be formed from the relationship while having a male protagonist you're dealing with the parents disapproving of you. ect.

I like this!

[Emzamination]

Filament wrote...

I'm pretty sure Gaider has said their past history stays the same regardless of your gender choice. But it's beneath him to satisfy our petty desire to make sense of the world by labeling things, you know, so he can't just say, therefore, Anders is bisexual-ish.

There is nothing to label.David gaider explained before that in one person's game merill might be straight as an arrow but in another person's game she might be Bi or into women.There is no definitive sexuality, it's all in how you want to play and I think that's great.There should be no specially reserved love interest based on gender and sexual preference.I was always a bit sad that one of the best looking Interest, morrigan was a male only option in origins.

[brushyourteeth]

Emzamination wrote...

Filament wrote...

I'm pretty sure Gaider has said their past history stays the same regardless of your gender choice. But it's beneath him to satisfy our petty desire to make sense of the world by labeling things, you know, so he can't just say, therefore, Anders is bisexual-ish.

There is nothing to label.David gaider explained before that in one person's game merill might be straight as an arrow but in another person's game she might be Bi or into women.There is no definitive sexuality, it's all in how you want to play and I think that's great.There should be no specially reserved love interest based on gender and sexual preference.I was always a bit sad that one of the best looking Interest, morrigan was a male only option in origins.

Yeah, this is what I'm talking about - you both say that David Gaider said completely different things about the DAII sexuality, and I myself am still very very confused.

Is it that 

their past history stays the same regardless of your gender choice

or is it that 

in one person's game merill might be straight as an arrow but in another person's game she might be Bi or into women.There is no definitive sexuality

?

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 30 mai 2012 - 07:34 .

[HiroVoid]

Its whatever you want it to be unless the game says otherwise.

[Emzamination]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Filament wrote...

I'm pretty sure Gaider has said their past history stays the same regardless of your gender choice. But it's beneath him to satisfy our petty desire to make sense of the world by labeling things, you know, so he can't just say, therefore, Anders is bisexual-ish.

There is nothing to label.David gaider explained before that in one person's game merill might be straight as an arrow but in another person's game she might be Bi or into women.There is no definitive sexuality, it's all in how you want to play and I think that's great.There should be no specially reserved love interest based on gender and sexual preference.I was always a bit sad that one of the best looking Interest, morrigan was a male only option in origins.

Yeah, this is what I'm talking about - you both say that David Gaider said completely different things about the DAII sexuality, and I myself am still very very confused.

Is it that 

their past history stays the same regardless of your gender choice

or is it that 

in one person's game merill might be straight as an arrow but in another person's game she might be Bi or into women.There is no definitive sexuality

?

David Gaider wrote...

SeanMurphy2 wrote...
I find it absurd for Bioware to make all romance characters bisexual for "equality" reasons. Yet if writers are forced to rigidly follow that rule. Then a straight or gay romance character is unable to exist in that world.

I get why some folks might not like the "subjective sexuality" of some of the characters, even if that subjective nature only becomes evident on multiple playthroughs (or if you spend a lot of time on the forums, first). For some, it's an issue of verisimilitude... because once they understand that this character might also romance different genders in alternate realities (other games) they have difficulty wrapping their minds around which neat little box they can put that character into.

The benefit, of course, is that it allows others to play their game the way they wish. Whether it's a good enough trade-off is up to the individual, but from our perspective the ability to provide more choices to our fans far outstrips the "oh but that's not realistic" argument.

What I don't get is how some people go right to "everyone is bisexual". Which they're not. Fenris might romance a male character or Merrill a female character in an alternate reality from the game you're currently playing, but that does not make them "bisexual". That seems to stem from a need to slap a label somewhere where it doesn't belong.

Whether or not we'll change our approach in the future depends mostly on time/resources. The "spread" of options that gets mentioned from time to time is probably the ideal in terms of options/verisimilitude, but it's also the most expensive in terms of resources... which is why it gets mentioned so often on forums, as resources are never an issue here. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

 

[brushyourteeth]

HiroVoid wrote...

Its whatever you want it to be unless the game says otherwise.

You may be right. I may just have to accept that.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 30 mai 2012 - 07:39 .

[brushyourteeth]

Emzamination wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I get why some folks might not like the "subjective sexuality" of some of the characters, even if that subjective nature only becomes evident on multiple playthroughs (or if you spend a lot of time on the forums, first). For some, it's an issue of verisimilitude... because once they understand that this character might also romance different genders in alternate realities (other games) they have difficulty wrapping their minds around which neat little box they can put that character into.

The benefit, of course, is that it allows others to play their game the way they wish. Whether it's a good enough trade-off is up to the individual, but from our perspective the ability to provide more choices to our fans far outstrips the "oh but that's not realistic" argument.

What I don't get is how some people go right to "everyone is bisexual". Which they're not. Fenris might romance a male character or Merrill a female character in an alternate reality from the game you're currently playing, but that does not make them "bisexual". That seems to stem from a need to slap a label somewhere where it doesn't belong.

Whether or not we'll change our approach in the future depends mostly on time/resources. The "spread" of options that gets mentioned from time to time is probably the ideal in terms of options/verisimilitude, but it's also the most expensive in terms of resources... which is why it gets mentioned so often on forums, as resources are never an issue here. 

 

Thanks very much, Enz. That's what I needed.

[Sylvius the Mad]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Ugh.

Okay, if that's the way we're going to approach this subject, then it's officially weird that all four of our love interests in DAII are into both genders, whether they tell you about it or not. Because the world has set up an environment through Zevran and Leliana's dialogues where it's unusual to be interested in the same gender.

It would be weird, but it's not true.  There is no reason to believe that any of the love interests aside from Isabela are bi.  In any given playthrough, Merril might be straight, or she might be bi, or she might be gay.  They're only always all bi if you decide they are.

[Wulfram]

As best I can understand, how subjective their sexuality is, is subjective.

Modifié par Wulfram, 30 mai 2012 - 07:46 .

[Emzamination]

brushyourteeth wrote...
Thanks very much, Enz. That's what I needed.

Np :happy:

[brushyourteeth]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Ugh.

Okay, if that's the way we're going to approach this subject, then it's officially weird that all four of our love interests in DAII are into both genders, whether they tell you about it or not. Because the world has set up an environment through Zevran and Leliana's dialogues where it's unusual to be interested in the same gender.

It would be weird, but it's not true.  There is no reason to believe that any of the love interests aside from Isabela are bi.  In any given playthrough, Merril might be straight, or she might be bi, or she might be gay.  They're only always all bi if you decide they are.

Well I'd argue that just because none of them talk about being bi doesn't mean that they aren't, but I see your point.

I guess my problem is that I have a harder time believing that the characters shift and change based on your choices than I do in just believing that they are all bi. And I still have a hard time believing that all four of them are bi, just given the hints in DA:O that heterosexuality is the "norm."

But thanks to the quote from Mr. Gaider, I'm just going to work on getting over it. My hope wasn't to limit anyone else, but just to understand the world and then be able to play in a game that's an accurate representation of it.

[AkiKishi]

robertthebard wrote...
You get to have all your pie?  I do love your cherrypicking style though.  You should teach a class.  It seems like anything that may counter what you believe is to be ignored, so I'll ask again:

Since the majority of the romance dialogs are not gender specific, how is one line, which can easily be attributed to "feeling out" mHawke by Anders to see if he's interested make LI's shallow?  Since, as has been pointed out, Fenris is exactly the same regardless of gender, how are LI's shallow?  If it's going to be more of "because I said so", please feel free to cherry pick my pie response, and go on from there.

Congrats for proving my other point. I see they went for the generic approach if that is indeed true.
I've never commented on Anders line so why would I address it?

[jlb524]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
There is no reason to believe that any of the love interests aside from Isabela are bi.

I think it's interesting that I've seen subjective arguments in determining aspects of Isabela's sexuality.

Some argue that even though bisexual, she prefers women to men.  Others say she prefers men to women.

I think both are valid interpretations.

So,I find it funny that even when the NPC is "clearly bisexual" there's still some room for differing interpretations regarding aspects of their sexuality.

brushyourteeth wrote...
I guess my problem is that I have a harder time believing that the characters shift and change based on your choices

Doesn't that typically happen in these type of games with characters in general?  Do you have a problem with that gameplay mechanic then?

Leliana seemed to change depending on my PC's choices regarding her personal mission in DA:O.

Modifié par jlb524, 30 mai 2012 - 08:02 .

[Emzamination]

Filament wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I get why some folks might not like the "subjective sexuality" of some of the characters, even if that subjective nature only becomes evident on multiple playthroughs (or if you spend a lot of time on the forums, first). For some, it's an issue of verisimilitude... because once they understand that this character might also romance different genders in alternate realities (other games) they have difficulty wrapping their minds around which neat little box they can put that character into.

The benefit, of course, is that it allows others to play their game the way they wish. Whether it's a good enough trade-off is up to the individual, but from our perspective the ability to provide more choices to our fans far outstrips the "oh but that's not realistic" argument.

What I don't get is how some people go right to "everyone is bisexual". Which they're not. Fenris might romance a male character or Merrill a female character in an alternate reality from the game you're currently playing, but that does not make them "bisexual". That seems to stem from a need to slap a label somewhere where it doesn't belong.

Whether or not we'll change our approach in the future depends mostly on time/resources. The "spread" of options that gets mentioned from time to time is probably the ideal in terms of options/verisimilitude, but it's also the most expensive in terms of resources... which is why it gets mentioned so often on forums, as resources are never an issue here. 

 

Thanks very much, Enz. That's what I needed.

Not to throw more cloud over the issue, but that's not the whole story. Notice how he only used Merrill and Fenris as examples. Here he mentions that their romances (Merrill and Fenris) are "more subjective." For Anders and Isabela, he's "not saying they could be anything," because sometimes "their past might come up." To be fair, he stops short of calling conclusions based on their past anything beyond inference, but I take it that he's relying on a very broad acknowledgment of how little we ever truly know each other to make that work. For simpler purposes I would say Anders is simply bisexual... or pansexual, etc.

Ander's past with men doesn't come up unless you press the romance forward as a male only.In a hetero female playthorugh this past did not exist since it isn't mentioned.

[Sylvius the Mad]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Congrats for proving my other point. I see they went for the generic approach if that is indeed true.

In the case of gender, yes, they did.

Are you applying a value judgment that generic is necessarily bad?  I certainly wouldn't accept that without some sort of justification.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 30 mai 2012 - 10:20 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I guess my problem is that I have a harder time believing that the characters shift and change based on your choices than I do in just believing that they are all bi.

Within that playthrough's reality, they don't change.  They are simply different.

During gameplay, Merrill's sexuality doesn't ever change.  You don't make her gay or straight through your choices.  She simply is gay or straight in that playthrough, but you won't know which until you interact with her.

[brushyourteeth]

jlb524 wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...
I guess my problem is that I have a harder time believing that the characters shift and change based on your choices

Doesn't that typically happen in these type of games with characters in general?  Do you have a problem with that gameplay mechanic then?

Leliana seemed to change depending on my PC's choices regarding her personal mission in DA:O.

Not in regards to anything quite so personal or immaleable as one's sexuality. I don't expect anyone in real life to change their sexual preference to suit me, and I respect the DA characters as whole and complete individuals with the same integrity of sexual preference as real people.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Within that playthrough's reality, they don't change. They are simply different.

During gameplay, Merrill's sexuality doesn't ever change. You don't make her gay or straight through your choices. She simply is gay or straight in that playthrough, but you won't know which until you interact with her.

This is a great example of what I was saying above. I think of Merrill as a whole person who had her own life happening before Hawke ever came into it. Therefore her sexuality ought to, in my way of thinking, bet "set" before she ever meets me. Instead if you show up as a girl, she's supposed to have always been a lesbian? If you show up as a male, she's supposed to have always been straight? And it's far-fetched to just say that she's bi? I'm just confused all over, and I would have found it more compelling if she'd had a preset sexuality and had met my Hawke and said "Wow, I've never been attracted to a woman before (or man, depending on how the writers wanted to handle her) but there's something about you that I find incredibly appealing."

[Emzamination]

Filament wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Ander's past with men doesn't come up unless you press the romance forward as a male only.In a hetero female playthorugh this past did not exist since it isn't mentioned.

That's your assumption. I would say what Gaider says in the thread I linked goes against that assumption (though he doesn't explicitly deny it), with how what you choose to believe doesn't alter the reality of who they are, etc.

No, it's just fact, plain and simple.The only assumptions being made are by you reading into something you were given no knowledge of.

[jlb524]

Filament wrote...
Character's change based on your PC's choices though, not the player's. They only change based on the player's choices with subjective sexualities (which I would note that I don't necessarily have a problem with, if they exist... it's just a question of whether they do or not, and for which characters), or if you're like Sylvius and think Alistair is a completely different character due to how he responds the same way to a different imagined tone for a dialog choice. I usually assume NPCs' personalities are independent of player choice unless informed otherwise.

I see...I assumed the post I replied to was referring to the PC.

I just typically see arguments of the form "Hawke can change Anders' sexuality", etc.

On that note:

brushyourteeth wrote...
Not in regards to anything quite so personal or immaleable as one's sexuality. I don't expect anyone in real life to change their sexual preference to suit me, and I respect the DA characters as whole and complete individuals with the same integrity of sexual preference as real people.

 

Are you referring to "me" the PC or "me" the player?

Modifié par jlb524, 30 mai 2012 - 08:29 .