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Me the person. See bolded.jlb524 wrote...
brushyourteeth wrote...
Not in regards to anything quite so personal or immaleable as one's sexuality. I don't expect anyone in real life to change their sexual preference to suit me, and I respect the DA characters as whole and complete individuals with the same integrity of sexual preference as real people.
Are you referring to "me" the PC or "me" the player?
Filament wrote...
Emzamination wrote...
No, it's just fact, plain and simple.The only assumptions being made are by you reading into something you were given no knowledge of.
It's such a fact that your assertion that he can be straight on a "hetero female" playthrough is flatly acknowledged by Gaider himself as an assumption, I suppose.
a man and a woman wouldn't be considered gay so no need for the "hetero"
brushyourteeth wrote...
Me the person. See bolded.jlb524 wrote...
brushyourteeth wrote...
Not in regards to anything quite so personal or immaleable as one's sexuality. I don't expect anyone in real life to change their sexual preference to suit me, and I respect the DA characters as whole and complete individuals with the same integrity of sexual preference as real people.
Are you referring to "me" the PC or "me" the player?
Guest_Puddi III_*
lol, there's a bit of difference between him not saying it, and then you saying with certainty, "In a hetero female playthorugh this past did not exist since it isn't mentioned." If I have to explain why that's an assumption and you're not willing to read what I quoted where Gaider explained himself that it's an assumption, well...Emzamination wrote...
Seeing as he never gives off any acknowledgement or hints at being involved with the same gender during a female playthrough, I'd say I'm completely right.
Modifié par Filament, 30 mai 2012 - 08:54 .
Filament wrote...
Emzamination wrote...
No, it's just fact, plain and simple.The only assumptions being made are by you reading into something you were given no knowledge of.
It's such a fact that your assertion that he can be straight on a "hetero female" playthrough is flatly acknowledged by Gaider himself as an assumption, I suppose.
Gotcha. I totally respect your point of view on the subject, but I just can't help but disagree. Or at least I can agree that that's what the devs are going for in the game, but nothing about it sits right with me.jlb524 wrote...
brushyourteeth wrote...
Me the person. See bolded.jlb524 wrote...
brushyourteeth wrote...
Not in regards to anything quite so personal or immaleable as one's sexuality. I don't expect anyone in real life to change their sexual preference to suit me, and I respect the DA characters as whole and complete individuals with the same integrity of sexual preference as real people.
Are you referring to "me" the PC or "me" the player?
I was confused by the analogy.
Though, people changing sexuality IRL for you is different from a character in a game changing their in-game sexualty based on the gender of character you select.
Filament wrote...
lol, there's a bit of difference between him not saying it, and then you saying with certainty, "In a hetero female playthorugh this past did not exist since it isn't mentioned." If I have to explain why that's an assumption and you're not willing to read what I quoted where Gaider explained himself that it's an assumption, well...Emzamination wrote...
Seeing as he never gives off any acknowledgement or hints at being involved with the same gender during a female playthrough, I'd say I'm completely right.
Modifié par Emzamination, 30 mai 2012 - 09:18 .
Alessa-00 wrote...
Filament wrote...
Emzamination wrote...
No, it's just fact, plain and simple.The only assumptions being made are by you reading into something you were given no knowledge of.
It's such a fact that your assertion that he can be straight on a "hetero female" playthrough is flatly acknowledged by Gaider himself as an assumption, I suppose.
Well, for me a fact is not the information David Gaider gives me in a posting here, but the information I am given inside the game on the actual playthrough. In a playthrough as female Hawke I never get the information that Anders had a sexual relationship with Karl. So in this playthrough a sexual relationship between Anders and Karl is not a fact!
If Gaider stated in a posting that Flemeth had a short relationship with Hawke's father and so Morrigan was Hawke's sister, but we never get to know about it in the game, because the dog romance in which it would have been mentioned was cut out of the game, than you would accept this as a fact, just because Gaider said it was one and because the fact that it isn't mentioned in the game doesn't mean it didn't happen?
Guest_Puddi III_*
You've heard of Word of God, haven't you? I understand some RP ultra-purists would say that the the entire lore is subjective to the lens of the PC, but as I see it there are plenty of aspects of the story, such as NPCs' personalities, that can be appreciated as a constant by the player, independent of the player's control... I take the backstory about Loghain and Maric and the Architect from their respective books as relevant to their characters, for instance, even though it's not presented in the games themselves.Alessa-00 wrote...
If Gaider stated in a posting that Flemeth had a short relationship with Hawke's father and so Morrigan was Hawke's sister, but we never get to know about it in the game, because the dog romance in which it would have been mentioned was cut out of the game, than you would accept this as a fact, just because Gaider said it was one and because the fact that it isn't mentioned in the game doesn't mean it didn't happen?
David Gaider wrote...
You do realize that not mentioning Karl or having the opportunity to have sex with a man in a particular game does not make him straight, yes? That is your assumption. You are free to assume such-- as I said, it's not mentioned much for precisely that reason -- but that does not alter reality and cause "a continuity problem".
Modifié par Filament, 30 mai 2012 - 09:24 .
This is exactly as I interpreted it as well.Filament wrote...
I would say the choice of words, "not mentioning Karl," implies that there is something to mention regardless. Also considering that his alternatives for Anders' sexuality were either "gay" or "bi" (roughly speaking), implying that the Karl relationship could be taken as a given. Also given his statement in this thread rationalizing why Anders wouldn't be likely to tell a female about his past relationship with a male, even if it did exist. Implying that its existence is certainly, at the very least, a possibility, on those female Hawke playthroughs. Not that it, as Emzamination so assuredly put it, simply "doesn't exist."
Filament wrote...
David Gaider wrote...
You do realize that not mentioning Karl or having the opportunity to have sex with a man in a particular game does not make him straight, yes? That is your assumption. You are free to assume such-- as I said, it's not mentioned much for precisely that reason -- but that does not alter reality and cause "a continuity problem".
I would say the choice of words, "not mentioning Karl," implies that there is something to mention regardless. Also considering that his alternatives for Anders' sexuality were either "gay" or "bi" (roughly speaking), implying that the Karl relationship could be taken as a given. Also given his statement in this thread rationalizing why Anders wouldn't be likely to tell a female about his past relationship with a male, even if it did exist. Implying that its existence is certainly, at the very least, a possibility, on those female Hawke playthroughs. Not that it, as Emzamination so assuredly put it, simply "doesn't exist."
Now I feel slightly guilty of picking apart devs' quotes in unnecessary detail, but you all made me do it.
Modifié par Alessa-00, 30 mai 2012 - 09:41 .
Filament wrote...
You've heard of Word of God, haven't you? I understand some RP ultra-purists would say that the the entire lore is subjective to the lens of the PC, but as I see it there are plenty of aspects of the story, such as NPCs' personalities, that can be appreciated as a constant by the player, independent of the player's control... I take the backstory about Loghain and Maric and the Architect from their respective books as relevant to their characters, for instance, even though it's not presented in the games themselves.Alessa-00 wrote...
If Gaider stated in a posting that Flemeth had a short relationship with Hawke's father and so Morrigan was Hawke's sister, but we never get to know about it in the game, because the dog romance in which it would have been mentioned was cut out of the game, than you would accept this as a fact, just because Gaider said it was one and because the fact that it isn't mentioned in the game doesn't mean it didn't happen?
To be clear, Word of God hasn't said I'm right. But I feel like it's been implied that just because Karl didn't mention his relationship doesn't mean it didn't happen. Fine, I'll quote it directly:David Gaider wrote...
You do realize that not mentioning Karl or having the opportunity to have sex with a man in a particular game does not make him straight, yes? That is your assumption. You are free to assume such-- as I said, it's not mentioned much for precisely that reason -- but that does not alter reality and cause "a continuity problem".
I would say the choice of words, "not mentioning Karl," implies that there is something to mention regardless. Also considering that his alternatives for Anders' sexuality were either "gay" or "bi" (roughly speaking), implying that the Karl relationship could be taken as a given. Also given his statement in this thread rationalizing why Anders wouldn't be likely to tell a female about his past relationship with a male, even if it did exist. Implying that its existence is certainly, at the very least, a possibility, on those female Hawke playthroughs. Not that it, as Emzamination so assuredly put it, simply "doesn't exist."
Now I feel slightly guilty of picking apart devs' quotes in unnecessary detail, but you all made me do it.
Guest_Puddi III_*
He's the lead writer. The game is his story. There's a ton of lore on the DA wiki derived specifically from dev comments on the forums, particularly about the qunari. I suppose if I had no reason to suspect he was yanking our chain, then sure, Anders is from Mars. I didn't realize Thedas was part of Sol's system, but hey, Gaider said so.Alessa-00 wrote...
David Gaider is not the game! If he told us in your quote that Anders was an alien from Mars then you would pretend it is a fact, just because Gaider said it?
Actually, the best example of this is the Hardening that can occur in DAO. Leliana and Alistair both change their perspecitve based on your direct action.Filament wrote...
The player's choices don't usually directly mold other characters. It would be fine if they did, I suppose, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.
Guest_Puddi III_*
That has been my suspicion as well. Which, I suppose, I can appreciate as well. It's a bit frustrating, though, in situations like this. You practically said it already Gaider, why can't you... meh...nightscrawl wrote...
Sometimes the devs feel they need to keep the vagueness intact because they don't want to affect the world we have built up in our own games, and because each player's game is isolated from another it's perfectly safe to do that. I can appreciate the sentiment. Sometimes though I think the vagueness causes more confusion than it's worth. Then again, I'm not a dev.
I took it that that's because it's not explicitly shown, to Gaider's standards, that Anders is into women on any given playthrough. He did imply that Anders is into men in every playthrough, however. At least, that's how I took it. I'm sure you'll claim that's wrong again, which is fine.Emzamination wrote...
He wasn't implying that anders was bi in every playthrough as that would contradict his later statements.
I draw a distinction between choices the player makes (e.g. choice of gender) and choices the PC makes (e.g. telling Alistair to "man up"). The PC can certainly influence NPCs, but their personality generally isn't subject to player control.nightscrawl wrote...
Actually, the best example of this is the Hardening that can occur in DAO. Leliana and Alistair both change their perspecitve based on your direct action.
Modifié par Filament, 30 mai 2012 - 10:03 .
Filament wrote...
He's the lead writer. The game is his story. There's a ton of lore on the DA wiki derived specifically from dev comments on the forums, particularly about the qunari. I suppose if I had no reason to suspect he was yanking our chain, then sure, Anders is from Mars. I didn't realize Thedas was part of Sol's system, but hey, Gaider said so.Alessa-00 wrote...
David Gaider is not the game! If he told us in your quote that Anders was an alien from Mars then you would pretend it is a fact, just because Gaider said it?
Again, I understand some RP purists would rear their head at that comment about it being "his" story, because it's the player's story too, but to me it's only the player's story inasmuch as the player influences the player character's actions, which in turn influence the world. The player's choices don't usually directly mold other characters. It would be fine if they did, I suppose, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.
Wulfram wrote...
Well, Anders is definitely into women. We see that in Awakening.
Guest_Puddi III_*
The game universe extends beyond the games themselves. Are we not to recognize any of the info about Loghain, Maric, etc as valid components of their characters because it wasn't shown in the games? About Cassandra in Dawn of the Seeker, because it's not shown in the games? It's fine if in your game you don't want to recognize that information to exist, but if we're talking about Anders as a character in the overarching Dragon Age universe, it seems to me... well, I've repeated myself enough times now.Alessa-00 wrote...
I know that he is the lead writer. But after all there are parts of the story that are not how he wrote them and how he wanted them to be and there are things he would have liked to see in the story that were left out of it. He is not the game. Wiki is not the game. The game is what the player experiences within his actual playthrough, because this is what any player can experience just by playing the game without being expected to read through the whole internet to get the "real" truth of the game.
I would tend to agree, which is why to me Anders is simply bi. However, I was talking about Gaider's standards, which appear to differ...Wulfram wrote...
Well, Anders is definitely into women. We see that in Awakening.
Hence his comment that appeared to state that Anders could either be gay or bi, depending on your interpretation. But he wasn't "saying they could be anything."David Gaider wrote...
perhaps if someone says a member of the opposite sex or same sex is attractive, that's enough for you? But they simply don't say where they preference lies.
Modifié par Filament, 30 mai 2012 - 10:37 .
I would argue that this is true. But the details of Merrill's background (and her sexuality) are not the same every time you play.brushyourteeth wrote...
This is a great example of what I was saying above. I think of Merrill as a whole person who had her own life happening before Hawke ever came into it. Therefore her sexuality ought to, in my way of thinking, bet "set" before she ever meets me.Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Within that playthrough's reality, they don't change. They are simply different.
During gameplay, Merrill's sexuality doesn't ever change. You don't make her gay or straight through your choices. She simply is gay or straight in that playthrough, but you won't know which until you interact with her.
Exactly.Instead if you show up as a girl, she's supposed to have always been a lesbian? If you show up as a male, she's supposed to have always been straight?
Not necessarily. But for players who find the idea that all of the LIs are bi to be incredible, this approach solves that problem by removing the unlikely circumstance.And it's far-fetched to just say that she's bi?
Since you brought up Anders in DAA... he never, not once, shows interest in men. I'm sure the first thing people will trot out is a single line of dialogue spoken in a party banter to Nathaniel...Wulfram wrote...
Well, Anders is definitely into women. We see that in Awakening.
But I hardly see that as justification for thinking that is a valid fandom, which I wrote about here. It was pointed out to me in that thread that he says it in a very "playfully, flirty" tone, which is simply natural for Anders in Awakening. He even talks to Oghren in that tone. It is the general tone that Greg Ellis adopted for the entirety of the game. Every single mention by Anders is about women: he asks whether we think Andraste is "a looker" based on the statue, he mentions wanting to find a pretty girl and have the right to throw fireballs at fools, has really loaded dialogue with Velanna, a female Warden has the option of flirting with him (Amaranthine tree dialogue point) from which you get +10 approval (unfortunately I can't remember his response). I really don't see anything, not one iota, from DAA that points to an interest in men.Nathaniel: You don't always wear robes, do you?
Anders: Not when I'm naked I don't.
Nathaniel: I mean when you run from the Circle. Robes would make you easy to spot.
Anders: So does the "I'm a mage!" sign around my neck. I like to make it easy for the templars.
Nathaniel: Ah, so that's how it's going to be.
Modifié par nightscrawl, 30 mai 2012 - 10:43 .
Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I would argue that this is true. But the details of Merrill's background (and her sexuality) are not the same every time you play.
Merrill doesn't become a lesbian when she meets Hawke. In worlds where Hawke is female, Merrill has always been a lesbian. And in worlds where Hawke is male, Merrill has always been straight.
Filament wrote...
I took it that that's because it's not explicitly shown, to Gaider's standards, that Anders is into women on any given playthrough. He did imply that Anders is into men in every playthrough, however. At least, that's how I took it. I'm sure you'll claim that's wrong again, which is fine.Emzamination wrote...
He wasn't implying that anders was bi in every playthrough as that would contradict his later statements.
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