442 réponses à ce sujet

[David Gaider]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...
I find it absurd for Bioware to make all romance characters bisexual for "equality" reasons. Yet if writers are forced to rigidly follow that rule. Then a straight or gay romance character is unable to exist in that world.

I get why some folks might not like the "subjective sexuality" of some of the characters, even if that subjective nature only becomes evident on multiple playthroughs (or if you spend a lot of time on the forums, first). For some, it's an issue of verisimilitude... because once they understand that this character might also romance different genders in alternate realities (other games) they have difficulty wrapping their minds around which neat little box they can put that character into.

The benefit, of course, is that it allows others to play their game the way they wish. Whether it's a good enough trade-off is up to the individual, but from our perspective the ability to provide more choices to our fans far outstrips the "oh but that's not realistic" argument.

What I don't get is how some people go right to "everyone is bisexual". Which they're not. Fenris might romance a male character or Merrill a female character in an alternate reality from the game you're currently playing, but that does not make them "bisexual". That seems to stem from a need to slap a label somewhere where it doesn't belong.

Whether or not we'll change our approach in the future depends mostly on time/resources. The "spread" of options that gets mentioned from time to time is probably the ideal in terms of options/verisimilitude, but it's also the most expensive in terms of resources... which is why it gets mentioned so often on forums, as resources are never an issue here.

Modifié par David Gaider, 01 mai 2012 - 03:17 .

[Andraste_Reborn]

I will say, however, that any decision we made would be made with inclusivity in mind, as that's something that we consider to be incredibly important. There are, after all, plenty of games for the majority of people - we believe in making something that those who aren't part of that 'majority' can enjoy.

... and this is why I love you guys. (Well, this and the bee sting scene in Mark of the Assassin.)

[AkiKishi]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
What exactly is a "gay society?" 

The world we live in is made up of all sorts of people - across various spectrums of ethnicity, religion/creed, and sexual orientation/identity. It's simply a society of human beings.

Thedas seems to be akin to that, however, it is (most wonderfully) lacking much of the social stigma that we see present in our real world. The game is set up to allow for a player to role-play as (s)he sees fit - to follow a romance arc as (s)he so desires, if (s)he so desires.

It's about inclusion - allowing those options to be available for the player.

A society where the norm is being gay. Just like you have matriarchal and patriarchal societies.

That's pandering to a players whims, not creating a a world. I want my party to refelct the world they live in, or the region the game is set in and not have a bunch of Bi characters because it's inclusive.

[David Gaider]

BobSmith101 wrote...
That's pandering to a players whims, not creating a a world. I want my party to refelct the world they live in, or the region the game is set in and not have a bunch of Bi characters because it's inclusive.

So you see it as not an issue because it's not an issue for you. That's understandable, but please recognize that it's a privilege to be in such a position. For many players, not having an equal amount of access to content is a slightly larger issue than verisimilitude... and it's an issue that is neither as subjective as verisimilitude is nor is it a "whim". We can, will and do consider their concerns to be worth addressing whenever we can.

Modifié par David Gaider, 01 mai 2012 - 03:31 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

David Gaider wrote...

SeanMurphy2 wrote...
I find it absurd for Bioware to make all romance characters bisexual for "equality" reasons. Yet if writers are forced to rigidly follow that rule. Then a straight or gay romance character is unable to exist in that world.

What I don't get is how some people go right to "everyone is bisexual". Which they're not. Fenris might romance a male character or Merrill a female character in an alternate reality from the game you're currently playing, but that does not make them "bisexual". That seems to stem from a need to slap a label somewhere where it doesn't belong.

So you don't plan on writing anymore characters that show their sexuality outside of the PC's company then? Because the only way to create characters that cannot be classified as "bisexual" but "whatever-floats-your-boat-exual" is to make their sexualities completely hidden from non-alterable game sections.

[John Epler]

BobSmith101 wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...
What exactly is a "gay society?" 

The world we live in is made up of all sorts of people - across various spectrums of ethnicity, religion/creed, and sexual orientation/identity. It's simply a society of human beings.

Thedas seems to be akin to that, however, it is (most wonderfully) lacking much of the social stigma that we see present in our real world. The game is set up to allow for a player to role-play as (s)he sees fit - to follow a romance arc as (s)he so desires, if (s)he so desires.

It's about inclusion - allowing those options to be available for the player.

A society where the norm is being gay. Just like you have matriarchal and patriarchal societies.

That's pandering to a players whims, not creating a a world. I want my party to refelct the world they live in, or the region the game is set in and not have a bunch of Bi characters because it's inclusive.

And how do you know whether or not that's reflective of the world they live in? This is Thedas, not an alternate history to our own world. For all you (and, for that matter, I, as I'm not a writer) know, the majority of Thedas is somewhere on the sexuality spectrum other than 'straight'. Maybe pure heterosexuality is looked upon as a quaint novelty.

Regardless, though, here's the thing. There are lots and lots of games out there for people who are heterosexual. Most media and entertainment is built for them. Of course you're not interested in inclusivity to a large degree - you aren't part of the group that's being ill-served by most entertainment. And it's fine to say 'I want my party to reflect the world they live in', but at the same time - they won't, regardless. Your party is filled with exceptional people, and the world is, by and large, not. Most dwarves aren't like Varric. Most elves aren't like Merril. Fenris is certainly rather unique within Kirkwall, and how many female pirate captains did you see walking around? Hell, there's only one captain of the guard, and she's adventuring with you.

If your companions are already exceptional in every way other than sexuality, why does it matter so much if their sexuality isn't 'standard'? And that's assuming that Thedas isn't a world where everyone doesn't occupy a place on the sliding scale of sexuality other than 'heterosexual'.

[Gibb_Shepard]

David Gaider wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
That's pandering to a players whims, not creating a a world. I want my party to refelct the world they live in, or the region the game is set in and not have a bunch of Bi characters because it's inclusive.

So you see it as not an issue because it's not an issue for you. That's understandable, but please recognize that it's a privilege to be in such a position. For many players, not having an equal amount of access to content is a slightly larger issue than verisimilitude... and it's an issue that is neither as subjective as verisimilitude is nor is it a "whim". We can, will and do consider their concerns to be worth addressing whenever we can.

Make two gay characters and two straight characters. Equal amount of access to content right there. Just because it's not the same content shouldn't be a problem at all. Everyone experiencing exactly the same content in their playthroughs is actually a very bad thing.

[hoorayforicecream]

BobSmith101 wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...
What exactly is a "gay society?" 

The world we live in is made up of all sorts of people - across various spectrums of ethnicity, religion/creed, and sexual orientation/identity. It's simply a society of human beings.

Thedas seems to be akin to that, however, it is (most wonderfully) lacking much of the social stigma that we see present in our real world. The game is set up to allow for a player to role-play as (s)he sees fit - to follow a romance arc as (s)he so desires, if (s)he so desires.

It's about inclusion - allowing those options to be available for the player.

A society where the norm is being gay. Just like you have matriarchal and patriarchal societies.

That's pandering to a players whims, not creating a a world. I want my party to refelct the world they live in, or the region the game is set in and not have a bunch of Bi characters because it's inclusive.

The norm is not being gay. The norm is being human. A person's sexual orientation is an accepted thing, be it gay, straight, bi, or something else.

You call it pandering, I call it world building. If it was pandering, there wouldn't have been anywhere near as many people complaining about how the potential romancees are bisexual (when it really is more like situational sexuality anyway). Regardless, it doesn't matter if it is or isn't inclusive, as long as the story is told in a believable way.

If you can believe in giant flying dragons, perpetually flaming swords, and the ability to spontaneously violate the laws of thermodynamics, but can't believe in a society where bisexuality is both common *and* commonly accepted, I'd say that the fault lies with you.

[David Gaider]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
So you don't plan on writing anymore characters that show their sexuality outside of the PC's company then? Because the only way to create characters that cannot be classified as "bisexual" but "whatever-floats-your-boat-exual" is to make their sexualities completely hidden from non-alterable game sections.

Isabela was bisexual, and talks about it outside of the PC's company. Being a very flirtatious character, it would be strange if she didn't. The other romances don't discuss it, but that was hardly a compromise as their sexuality isn't a big part of their characterization-- at least when not dealing with someone in whom they were actually sexually interested.

So, no, I don't see it as that big a concern. People who say it is seem to be magnifying it into the only aspect of the character that makes up their identity, when that's hardly true.

As I mentioned above, the "spread" would be ideal. Whether we'll ever get the chance to do that is difficult to say. If that's not the case, however, I don't see it as a big issue either in terms of characterization or in world-building... and the world-building argument is a rather laughable one, sorry. Those who bring it up are talking about the way they'd prefer Thedas to be rather than how we're actually presenting it.

Modifié par David Gaider, 01 mai 2012 - 03:41 .

[Kail Ashton]

So this threads gone from obsessive fans scanning every detail of NinjaGaider's home in an attempt to make an exact popcycle stick duplicate to nerd political talk (lolz) on uh, gaydom? ...gayness?...supercalifrisiousixbyaladocious? well whatever! you get the idea

This is the kind of hilarity only the internet can produce, please give your behind a monitor obscurity ridiculous insights on this subject further, cause video games and make belive are the best vehicles for this sensitive subject matter!

[AkiKishi]

John Epler wrote...

And how do you know whether or not that's reflective of the world they live in? This is Thedas, not an alternate history to our own world. For all you (and, for that matter, I, as I'm not a writer) know, the majority of Thedas is somewhere on the sexuality spectrum other than 'straight'. Maybe pure heterosexuality is looked upon as a quaint novelty.

Regardless, though, here's the thing. There are lots and lots of games out there for people who are heterosexual. Most media and entertainment is built for them. Of course you're not interested in inclusivity to a large degree - you aren't part of the group that's being ill-served by most entertainment. And it's fine to say 'I want my party to reflect the world they live in', but at the same time - they won't, regardless. Your party is filled with exceptional people, and the world is, by and large, not. Most dwarves aren't like Varric. Most elves aren't like Merril. Fenris is certainly rather unique within Kirkwall, and how many female pirate captains did you see walking around? Hell, there's only one captain of the guard, and she's adventuring with you.

If your companions are already exceptional in every way other than sexuality, why does it matter so much if their sexuality isn't 'standard'? And that's assuming that Thedas isn't a world where everyone doesn't occupy a place on the sliding scale of sexuality other than 'heterosexual'.

Because the game is not showing me that is the case. In this case , it's not even telling me.

Are you saying they are bi because they are adventurers? As long as you reflect things in the wider society, then go for it. My interest is in world integrity and my party being a reflection of that.Maybe everyone being exceptional is a part of the problem. People felt less exceptional in DA..

Having read the previous paragraph I think it's just part of a bigger issue.While the PC and party should certainly not be average, having them as the only exceptional beings in a world on the mundane is not a good thing.

[bobafett007]

I loath Felicia Day. Met her at a con, she was a total b****.

[AkiKishi]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
That's pandering to a players whims, not creating a a world. I want my party to refelct the world they live in, or the region the game is set in and not have a bunch of Bi characters because it's inclusive.

So you see it as not an issue because it's not an issue for you. That's understandable, but please recognize that it's a privilege to be in such a position. For many players, not having an equal amount of access to content is a slightly larger issue than verisimilitude... and it's an issue that is neither as subjective as verisimilitude is nor is it a "whim". We can, will and do consider their concerns to be worth addressing whenever we can.

Make two gay characters and two straight characters. Equal amount of access to content right there. Just because it's not the same content shouldn't be a problem at all. Everyone experiencing exactly the same content in their playthroughs is actually a very bad thing.

Then you get the whole "I want to romance XXXX" ! Or "why can't XXX be gay or straight" ! 

I can certainly understand Biowares reasons for going the make everyone bi root. But if DA2 was anything to go by, lines could be better used elsewhere.

[Gibb_Shepard]

David Gaider wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
So you don't plan on writing anymore characters that show their sexuality outside of the PC's company then? Because the only way to create characters that cannot be classified as "bisexual" but "whatever-floats-your-boat-exual" is to make their sexualities completely hidden from non-alterable game sections.

Isabela was bisexual, and talks about it outside of the PC's company. Being a very flirtatious character, it would be strange if she didn't. The other romances don't discuss it, but that was hardly a compromise as their sexuality isn't a big part of their characterization-- at least when not dealing with someone in whom they were actually sexually interested.

So, no, I don't see it as that big a concern. People who say it is seem to be magnifying it into the only aspect of the character that makes up their identity, when that's hardly true.

No, but nuances do make up a character's identity. Morrigan was hardly a Zevran or Isabella, but the fact that she was known to be a dangerous seducer of men was definitely a nice little part of her character. Sexuality can be seen as a nuance, like in Morrigan's case, and the more of those in a character the better. I didn't like the all or nothing approach in DA2 (Either extremely over the top about sexuality, or seemingly celibate ouitside of the PC's company).

[David Gaider]

BobSmith101 wrote...
Because the game is not showing me that is the case. In this case , it's not even telling me.

So we should, what? Have a pair of ambient elves in the market who talk publicly about how much they like both men and women? A codex entry where Brother Genitivi discusses "Sexuality in Thedas"?

It's not something that comes up because it's private-- and also because there are no terms that exist in that era. In our own history, the need to study and categorize sexuality didn't come about until the late 19th century... prior to that, it wasn't even a concept. The act was considered far more relevant than the impulse. So when it comes up outside of the player's personal experience, it's going to be either vague or implied (such as Wade & Herren, Branka & Hespith or the Viscount's son).

I'm not going to question why you feel the need to have the world further advertise that sexuality is not treated the same as in our world when that's what the party members are showing you-- but I will suggest that the problem is yours and not one to be blamed on "world-building". You might be seeing what you want to see.

Modifié par David Gaider, 01 mai 2012 - 03:58 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
That's pandering to a players whims, not creating a a world. I want my party to refelct the world they live in, or the region the game is set in and not have a bunch of Bi characters because it's inclusive.

So you see it as not an issue because it's not an issue for you. That's understandable, but please recognize that it's a privilege to be in such a position. For many players, not having an equal amount of access to content is a slightly larger issue than verisimilitude... and it's an issue that is neither as subjective as verisimilitude is nor is it a "whim". We can, will and do consider their concerns to be worth addressing whenever we can.

Make two gay characters and two straight characters. Equal amount of access to content right there. Just because it's not the same content shouldn't be a problem at all. Everyone experiencing exactly the same content in their playthroughs is actually a very bad thing.

Then you get the whole "I want to romance XXXX" ! Or "why can't XXX be gay or straight" ! 

I can certainly understand Biowares reasons for going the make everyone bi root. But if DA2 was anything to go by, lines could be better used elsewhere.

So? I wanted to side with the Archdemon. I wanted to romance Ser Cauthrien. I wanted to give Loghain a bro hug. Just because it has to do with romances doesn't mean people should be able to get everything they want. It seems the only reason it is this way is because the DA team is extremely passionate about the gays and bis.

Hell, having exclusive romances just adds to the replayability. Instead of hitting everyone in one playthrough, you have to play a second time. That's what i did to see what the Alistair romance was like.

[hoorayforicecream]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Because the game is not showing me that is the case. In this case , it's not even telling me.

Or you're just assuming. The evidence is already there. Wade and Herren. Branka and Hespith. Seneschal Bran and Serendipity. Anders and Karl. Leliana and Marjolaine. Zevran and many people. Isabela and elves, humans, and a dwarf in drag once. Jethann. Idunna. The crew at the Blooming Rose. The crew at the Pearl. There are plenty of examples of people in Thedas who are not primarily heterosexual, yet accepted in the world. I see the lack of kerfuffle over sexuality as evidence of acceptance. You may not agree, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. 

Are you saying they are bi because they are adventurers? As long as you reflect things in the wider society, then go for it. My interest is in world integrity and my party being a reflection of that.Maybe everyone being exceptional is a part of the problem. People felt less exceptional in DA..

No. He's saying they are already outside the norm in many aspects already, which sets a precedent that there's no reason they couldn't also be outside the norm in yet another aspect since they are already outside the norm in so many.

Having read the previous paragraph I think it's just part of a bigger issue.While the PC and party should certainly not be average, having them as the only exceptional beings in a world on the mundane is not a good thing.

They aren't. They are extraordinary people who fight extraordinary enemies.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 01 mai 2012 - 03:55 .

[AkiKishi]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
The norm is not being gay. The norm is being human. A person's sexual orientation is an accepted thing, be it gay, straight, bi, or something else.

You call it pandering, I call it world building. If it was pandering, there wouldn't have been anywhere near as many people complaining about how the potential romancees are bisexual (when it really is more like situational sexuality anyway). Regardless, it doesn't matter if it is or isn't inclusive, as long as the story is told in a believable way.

If you can believe in giant flying dragons, perpetually flaming swords, and the ability to spontaneously violate the laws of thermodynamics, but can't believe in a society where bisexuality is both common *and* commonly accepted, I'd say that the fault lies with you.

The norm is hetrosexuality. No real point disputing that from what I can see.

How exactly is it world building ? In Biowares own words it's pandering.

I can belive in those things because I SEE those things in the game. I don't see anything that shows the society of DA being any different to medivel.

[the_one_54321]

David Gaider wrote...
I get why some folks might not like the "subjective sexuality" of some of the characters, even if that subjective nature only becomes evident on multiple playthroughs (or if you spend a lot of time on the forums, first). For some, it's an issue of verisimilitude... because once they understand that this character might also romance different genders in alternate realities (other games) they have difficulty wrapping their minds around which neat little box they can put that character into.

The benefit, of course, is that it allows others to play their game the way they wish. Whether it's a good enough trade-off is up to the individual, but from our perspective the ability to provide more choices to our fans far outstrips the "oh but that's not realistic" argument.

You can do both. Just give me a reason to believe they are bisexual, instead of being possessed of a sexuality toggle. Any reason at all would do.

[hoorayforicecream]

the_one_54321 wrote...

You can do both. Just give me a reason to believe they are bisexual, instead of being possessed of a sexuality toggle. Any reason at all would do.

"They didn't say they weren't" isn't good enough? Why do people have to be heterosexual by default in a fantasy realm?

[David Gaider]

the_one_54321 wrote...
You can do both. Just give me a reason to believe they are bisexual, instead of being possessed of a sexuality toggle. Any reason at all would do.

I'd rather leave it up to the player to believe what they wish, unless it's relevant to their character (such as in Isabela's case). If you feel the need to definitively categorize the character's sexuality, that's your problem and not ours.

Modifié par David Gaider, 01 mai 2012 - 04:00 .

[Brockololly]

David Gaider wrote...
Isabela was bisexual, and talks about it outside of the PC's company. Being a very flirtatious character, it would be strange if she didn't. The other romances don't discuss it, but that was hardly a compromise as their sexuality isn't a big part of their characterization-- at least when not dealing with someone in whom they were actually sexually interested.

So, no, I don't see it as that big a concern. People who say it is seem to be magnifying it into the only aspect of the character that makes up their identity, when that's hardly true.

But then you have characters like Alistair or Morrigan, whose sexuality does make up one facet of their characterization. And I think they were more interesting characters for having a more defined sexuality as opposed to simply having an amorphous sexuality that changed based on the player character. I actually like having more defined NPCs. And I don't really get why one's sexuality wouldn't come up, especially if you were romancing a given character, at least to some extent.

So I'd welcome more exclusivity in that sense, if it meant more reactivity to the more player defined player character and the more fixed character of the NPC reacting to my PC. So have somebody like a heterosexual Aveline or Samara turn down the player character due to their personal beliefs. Or have Morrigan turn down the PC if they've specialized as a Templar. Or have Leliana have a preference for people with blond hair and blue eyes and comment on that if thats how you made your PC.  Or having Alistair react like an awkward virgin, complete with Morrigan and Oghren banter calling Alistair's sexuality in question because he's an awkward virgin. Or Alistair turning down an elf or dwarf as queen. Or Morrigan only letting a romanced Warden go with her into the Eluvian. Thats "exclusive" content that I enjoy since its the game reacting to my player character or a defined NPC bumping up against my PC. That sort of thing makes the world feel more real and not like its only revolving around every whim of the PC and makes me want to play the game again since I can't see or experience everything in one playthough.

Thats part of my whole issue with DA2, was that maybe by making the romances more inclusive thats a nice idea, but they felt pretty generic and one size fits all. That mentality seems to stretch to other areas of the game too, like the end game bosses being one size fits all no matter your choices too.

Thats something that I like about The Witcher 2. You've got the giant game changing branching paths, but if you're paying attention, the other characters you might not meet in a given branch still exist and are still players in the world without the input of the player character, because they're defined NPCs with their own motivations. So when you go back and play the other path, you're filled in on who those characters are and you come to realize some pretty amazing things that fill in the story that you didn't realize before... I won't say more for the sake of spoilers. Same thing with something like Alpha Protocol, the game doesn't necessarily revolve around the PC but you have meaningful reactivity and consequences.

[Dakota Strider]

David Gaider wrote...

SeanMurphy2 wrote...
I find it absurd for Bioware to make all romance characters bisexual for "equality" reasons. Yet if writers are forced to rigidly follow that rule. Then a straight or gay romance character is unable to exist in that world.

I get why some folks might not like the "subjective sexuality" of some of the characters, even if that subjective nature only becomes evident on multiple playthroughs (or if you spend a lot of time on the forums, first). For some, it's an issue of verisimilitude... because once they understand that this character might also romance different genders in alternate realities (other games) they have difficulty wrapping their minds around which neat little box they can put that character into.

It was not that hard to figure out.  On my first playthrough, I realized that at least 3 of the characters were gay or bisexual, and I did not go to the forums until long after I played DA2.  And it was pretty easy to conclude that all four possible LI's were bi after that.  So, that meant of the 7 possible companions in the game, (Varric, Aveline and your sibling included) over half of the party was bi.  It broke immersion for me.  I mean...yeah that is very possible for something like that to happen randomly, though the odds would be small.  But it would generally take someone actively seeking to make the majority of the party to be bisexual/gay for that to happen logically.

The benefit, of course, is that it allows others to play their game the way they wish. Whether it's a good enough trade-off is up to the individual, but from our perspective the ability to provide more choices to our fans far outstrips the "oh but that's not realistic" argument.

I understand what you are trying to do, but it just doesn't work for me.  I guess it gave more choices for some of your fans.  Especially with Anders, I did not feel like I had an opportunity to be just a friend, I had to either be his LI, or he would consider my character a jerk.

What I don't get is how some people go right to "everyone is bisexual". Which they're not. Fenris might romance a male character or Merrill a female character in an alternate reality from the game you're currently playing, but that does not make them "bisexual". That seems to stem from a need to slap a label somewhere where it doesn't belong.

In a perfect world, your theory would be true.  But unfortunately, it is hard to turn off our brains, and ignore what we know about the characters.  And because we know what we know, it makes the experience feel cheapened, because it feels like the companions had their personalities split in half, which cheapened them.  Would adding two more companions as LI's be that difficult?   Then two that are bi, two gay, and two straight? 

  Whether or not we'll change our approach in the future depends mostly on time/resources. The "spread" of options that gets mentioned from time to time is probably the ideal in terms of options/verisimilitude, but it's also the most expensive in terms of resources... which is why it gets mentioned so often on forums, as resources are never an issue here.

And that of course is the problem....time and resources.  All that we can do is take some solace that our opinions are being listened to.  Having played Bioware fantasy rpgs for almost 15 years, I keep coming back to Bioware, because no other company makes games the way you guys do.  I would be happy playing your games if there were no LI's at all.   But I do not want to do, as Mr. Eplar seemed to suggest, and go play other type of games, because Bioware has chosen a new direction.