443 réponses à ce sujet

[macrocarl]

Great interview! I always love hearing how you BW folks put things together and your line of thinking on why things are the way they end up in game. Process stuff, to me is facinating. I hope you guys get that panel you were talking about and I hope the rest of us who can't go get to see it! Cheers!

[cJohnOne]

Would you describe Alistair as Hunky? Or is that completely crazy?

[keesio74]

I'm glad everyone is bi-sexual. That way I can plan any gender Hawke and still have the same romance options for each playthrough. It's all about choices for me.

[robertthebard]

Ok, so I followed a link to get here, and I'm reading "I wanna role play this, that or the other, but I can't because Anders slept with my fHawke, despite me being on my mHawke now"... Very roughly paraphrased over 6 or so pages anyway.

How does one Hawke know what's going on with another Hawke? Isn't carrying knowledge from one play through to the next called metagaming, not role playing? We can rationalize it, and justify it all we want, but unless you have a mHawke and and fHawke in the same game, there's no way for Hawke to know. Much ado about nothing, as far as I'm concerned. I could care less if Anders was gay in one playthrough, and hetero in another, which, coincidentally, doesn't make him bi, since I leave him parked in his little clinic, plotting his little scheme, and hardly ever notice him, unless I have to for a plot specific quest.

It doesn't bother me in the least bit that Merrill would go either way, other than it's kinda creepy, in a "I'm a grandparent, and she doesn't look much older than one of my grandchildren" kind of way. She is, however, lots of fun to listen to in banter and cutscenes. "Silly girl, none of that matters unless you're courting him..." "Merrill" "Ohhh, you are courting him". Not my favorite, but still funny. The fact that this line plays out whether my Hawke is male or female is all I need to know, along with some other gems she gets.

I have to disagree with BioWare about Isabela though, I think she's actually "trysexual", if it's got to do with sex, in any way shape or form, she wants to try it. She's the second easiest companion in the series to get in the sack too, immediately behind Morrigan. So what's it matter if she'll go either way, or both ways at the same time? We already knew that from Origins, or we had the potential to know it. So live safe in the knowledge that, in the particular game you're in, you can indeed have the romance of your choosing.

[HiroVoid]

Personally, I thought Leliana would have done pretty well as a purely homosexual character, but she seemed to enjoy the thrills and sex with male assassination targets as well which is where the bisexuality comes in. Still, it seemed she preferred females to males since she seems to more to try and get a female grey warden's attention while it seems while you have to chase her more as a male.

[robertthebard]

Fandango9641 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

How does one Hawke know what's going on with another Hawke? Isn't carrying knowledge from one play through to the next called metagaming, not role playing? We can rationalize it, and justify it all we want, but unless you have a mHawke and and fHawke in the same game, there's no way for Hawke to know. Much ado about nothing, as far as I'm concerned. I could care less if Anders was gay in one playthrough, and hetero in another, which, coincidentally, doesn't make him bi, since I leave him parked in his little clinic, plotting his little scheme, and hardly ever notice him, unless I have to for a plot specific quest.

This again? Having NPC’s reinvent themselves to suit the different ways people want them to be for the purposes of romance (or any other reason for that matter) is a rotten idea. It dilutes characterisation for the sake of self-centred fantasy and for what? So people who bleat about imbalance, but refuse to roleplay different characters, can engage in the romance of their choice? How is that in any way reasonable? “I want my pick of LI’s, regardless of how I choose to play, so make that aspect of their characterisation totally ambiguous”. Selfish nonsense!

What about the advantages of having a cast of characters with clearly defined sexual preferences? Look at how Isabella, Leliana and Zev were explicitly bisexual and how it strengthened their characterisation. Then take look at how Anders witheld aspects of his past from female protagonists in DA2. See the difference? Would it not be superb to have an explicitly gay character or three in a DA game? Why does turning every LI into a romantic ‘bot’ represent a better, fairer and more convincing approach to romance than having a cast of characters who are explicitly bi, hetro or homosexual?

Actually, I see denying somebody that oppurtunity as selfish.  So I guess it's just a matter of opinion?  I don't see any advantages or disadvantages.  I don't like Anders, no matter if I can romance him on fHawke/mHawke or not at all.  I just don't like him, and his herosexual tendencies don't bother me at all.  A romance, or even the idea of one with Merrill creeps me out in ways I can't even begin to explain, due to her apparent age.  So I don't care if she's herosexual or not either.  Fenris was a slave, and his sexuality would be acquired in that aspect, meaning he's bound to go either way, since his master may, or may not have required it.  Which leaves us with Isabela, who was already clearly defined.  Since the other companions cannot be romanced, what's it matter?  Again, unless you are metagaming, in which case, why even bother with romances, how does what happens in one game affect you in another?  It's not like in Origins, where there's an achievement for each character's romance, you only have to do one.

[Issala]

HiroVoid wrote...

Personally, I thought Leliana would have done pretty well as a purely homosexual character, but she seemed to enjoy the thrills and sex with male assassination targets as well which is where the bisexuality comes in. Still, it seemed she preferred females to males since she seems to more to try and get a female grey warden's attention while it seems while you have to chase her more as a male.

If your Warden is female she is pretty much purely homosexual. And that last comment is very true. I always can't help but be confused when people complain about Leliana being hard to romance. I spent a lot of gametime beating her back with a stick.

[robertthebard]

Semhaine wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Personally, I thought Leliana would have done pretty well as a purely homosexual character, but she seemed to enjoy the thrills and sex with male assassination targets as well which is where the bisexuality comes in. Still, it seemed she preferred females to males since she seems to more to try and get a female grey warden's attention while it seems while you have to chase her more as a male.

If your Warden is female she is pretty much purely homosexual. And that last comment is very true. I always can't help but be confused when people complain about Leliana being hard to romance. I spent a lot of gametime beating her back with a stick.

I'm laughing as I type this, as I was having to do the same thing when I was trying to do one of the other romances on a fWarden.  There are lines of dialog in her convos that would seem to support that as well.  The forbidden fruit convo comes immediately to mind.

[Dakota Strider]

As long as this topic has come up again, I would like to state, that I am very glad that they did not do the bi-identity with Alistair. One of my favorite dialogues with Alistair, was when the subject of his virginity came up. It was the type of banter that is typical guy talk to each other. You can give Alistair a little bit of a hard time (jokingly), get him all embarrassed, and then say something to make him feel better. It was a very fun dialogue for me.

However, if Alistair had been bi/gay, that conversation could have never happened. Or if it had, it would have been very creepy for me. I personally would not have that conversation with a woman, and I could not see having that with a gay male. The sexual implications are much different when doing that. Could not have ever had that conversation with Anders or Fenris, for example. Varric, probably.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 28 mai 2012 - 01:29 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Dakota Strider wrote...

As long as this topic has come up again, I would like to state, that I am very glad that they did not do the bi-identity with Alistair. One of my favorite dialogues with Alistair, was when the subject of his virginity came up. It was the type of banter that is typical guy talk to each other. You can give Alistair a little bit of a hard time (jokingly), get him all embarrassed, and then say something to make him feel better. It was a very fun dialogue for me.

However, if Alistair had been bi/gay, that conversation could have never happened. Or if it had, it would have been very creepy for me. I personally would not have that conversation with a woman, and I could not see having that with a gay male. The sexual implications are much different when doing that. Could not have ever had that conversation with Anders or Fenris, for example. Varric, probably.

Out of curiosity, what would make that conversation different or more palatable with Varric? Is it because he is not a romancable character?

Having a conversation about one's virginity, or other intimate matters, is feasibly something that can occur between friends - friends that are male or female and/or friends who identify different sexually. Within the game, it's about broaching a personal topic with someone that Alistair has grown to trust.

While that conversation may not be within your comfort zone under certain circumstances IRL, it is indeed something that can happen, and probably happens often amongst people who regard each other with respect.

[AkiKishi]

Fandango9641 wrote...
Couldn't agree more, which is why I dont support the treatment of Anders in DA2. Well said. I will say that, for me, Varric and Aveline were the two strongest NPC's in DA2, and this probably had everything to do with them not being romantic 'bait' for Hawke.

Unless the characters are destined to be together any sort of modification is going make a difference. Both Aveline and Varric could be written without any thought to how to make them romancable,which made them more well rounded as people.

[Dakota Strider]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Dakota Strider wrote...

As long as this topic has come up again, I would like to state, that I am very glad that they did not do the bi-identity with Alistair. One of my favorite dialogues with Alistair, was when the subject of his virginity came up. It was the type of banter that is typical guy talk to each other. You can give Alistair a little bit of a hard time (jokingly), get him all embarrassed, and then say something to make him feel better. It was a very fun dialogue for me.

However, if Alistair had been bi/gay, that conversation could have never happened. Or if it had, it would have been very creepy for me. I personally would not have that conversation with a woman, and I could not see having that with a gay male. The sexual implications are much different when doing that. Could not have ever had that conversation with Anders or Fenris, for example. Varric, probably.

Out of curiosity, what would make that conversation different or more palatable with Varric? Is it because he is not a romancable character?

Having a conversation about one's virginity, or other intimate matters, is feasibly something that can occur between friends - friends that are male or female and/or friends who identify different sexually. Within the game, it's about broaching a personal topic with someone that Alistair has grown to trust.

While that conversation may not be within your comfort zone under certain circumstances IRL, it is indeed something that can happen, and probably happens often amongst people who regard each other with respect.

The conversation with Varric would have gone differently than with Alistair, mostly because Varric seemed to be more worldly.  More than likely, he would have been giving Hawke a bad time about being a virgin.  The reason it worked so well wit Alistair, is that because he was usually joking around, and not taking things seriously, and this was a good opportunity to put him on the defensive for a bit, in a good natured way.   The reason I said I would never have that type of conversation with a woman, even a good friend, is because even if some considered it to be harmless fun, it could easily be considered sexual harassment, and I actually think it may be.  Its basically locker room behaviour, which should have the same motto as Vegas,  "What happens in the lockerroom, stays in the lockerroom."

IF I were forced to have had that conversation with a female, it would have had to be completely different to feel right.  Would not tease her, or ridicule her.  Call me old fashioned, but I still believe in chivalry.

[David Gaider]

Fandango9641 wrote...
This again? Having NPC’s reinvent themselves to suit the different ways people want them to be for the purposes of romance (or any other reason for that matter) is a rotten idea. It dilutes characterisation for the sake of self-centred fantasy and for what? So people who bleat about imbalance, but refuse to roleplay different characters, can engage in the romance of their choice? How is that in any way reasonable? “I want my pick of LI’s, regardless of how I choose to play, so make that aspect of their characterisation totally ambiguous”. Selfish nonsense!

"Selfish nonsense"?

The difference here is that one side requires metagaming knowledge-- you need to have played through the game multiple times, or spent time on the forums reading about these characters, to even know that they could have romances with more than one gender PC. Thus it's the sort of opinion you'll find common here on the forums where such knowledge is considered de rigeur, but nowhere else.

"Selfish nonsense" would be restricting options for others simply to satisfy your personal need for more continuuity between your various playthroughs. And that continuuity is in and of itself fairly subjective-- such as the brand of thinking that makes some people go "Anders was straight until you made him bi!", as if him not previously declaring his sexuality made the player's perception the absolute truth. So, by extension I suppose, the romanceable followers are suddenly less able to be placed in a neat mental box and thus break the rules of your personal perception? Their potential bisexuality "dilutes" their character?

How very ghastly of them.

While I rather like the idea of a character with a set sexuality getting to mention it more specifically in their conversations, I hardly think the lack of such a discussion of their sexuality dilutes their character. Ideally we'd have the resources to include a range of options across the party, but if that's not the case then I'm going to lean towards providing as many options as I can... the "selfishness" of those players wanting the same number of romance options as other players notwithstanding.

[whykikyouwhy]

Dakota Strider wrote...

The conversation with Varric would have gone differently than with Alistair, mostly because Varric seemed to be more worldly.  More than likely, he would have been giving Hawke a bad time about being a virgin.  The reason it worked so well wit Alistair, is that because he was usually joking around, and not taking things seriously, and this was a good opportunity to put him on the defensive for a bit, in a good natured way.   The reason I said I would never have that type of conversation with a woman, even a good friend, is because even if some considered it to be harmless fun, it could easily be considered sexual harassment, and I actually think it may be.  Its basically locker room behaviour, which should have the same motto as Vegas,  "What happens in the lockerroom, stays in the lockerroom."

IF I were forced to have had that conversation with a female, it would have had to be completely different to feel right.  Would not tease her, or ridicule her.  Call me old fashioned, but I still believe in chivalry.

I would just like to note that if it's sexual harassment for a woman, it would be sexual harassment for a man as well. Gender is not the qualifier for something being untoward or inappropriate, or perceived as such.

And now, perhaps we should return this thread to its actual topic.

[upsettingshorts]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Look at how Isabella, Leliana and Zev were explicitly bisexual and how it strengthened their characterisation. Then take look at how Anders witheld aspects of his past from female protagonists in DA2. See the difference? 

Yes, I can see there are two hairs now when before there was only one.

[jlb524]

Fandango9641 wrote...
Couldn't agree more, which is why I dont support the treatment of Anders in DA2. Well said. I will say that, for me, Varric and Aveline were the two strongest NPC's in DA2, and this probably had everything to do with them not being romantic 'bait' for Hawke.

Do you think the DA:O romances were 'romantic bait' for the Warden?

Because...there's really no difference between them and DA2's romances.

[robertthebard]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Sure it’s a matter of my opinion but it’s the players who refuse to roleplay different characters that are denying themselves  the opportunity of experiencing different romance paths, not those who advocate strong, consistent characterisation. Selfish is demanding that Bioware dilute the experience of everyone who plays their games to accommodate their own inflexibility. I’m a straight male who roleplays male and female characters and would gladly play a gay protagonist given the chance. That others refuse to do the same is on them and I really don’t want my experience cheapened as a result.

There are also the players that would have liked to romance Alistair, for example, on their male PC.  Everybody is supposed to feel like they mean something, or that their opinion matters, but when it starts to be "Do it my way, or you're doing it wrong", no matter who's saying it, somebody has issues.  Since it is, at this point in time, impossible to have a m and fHawke in party at the same time, and since you say you are a role player, then it shouldn't matter that certain NPC's are herosexual.  Because no matter what hero you are, they are still falling for you.

[David Gaider]

Fandango9641 wrote...
In any case, it appears sexuality is on the flip-flop list....what’s next?

That's just my point. Their sexuality does not "flip-flop". It would only be that way if the characters discussed how they were only attracted to a gender in one version, and then discussed how they were attracted to a different gender in another version. This is not the case. Even Anders only mentioning his relationship with Karl to a male player does not change who he actually is. So I find it a bit strange that someone would paint this as inconsistencies of character when it relates only to your perception, seeing as they never discuss it... and I don't think such a discussion is always necessary.

If you wish to take issue with it regardless, that's fine. I would say the limitation is yours, however, despite your desire to push it onto others as "selfish".

Again, ideally I'd like to have set sexualities solely for the opportunities it opens up in dialogue, which we would otherwise avoid, but I don't see not having that as doing what you claim it does. And I'll leave it at that.