443 réponses à ce sujet

[whykikyouwhy]

nightscrawl wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

What I don't care for is when people try to place an individual in a box or a category or affix a label to someone when that person may have no intention of doing so his/herself.

I think it's a bit extreme to think this way about NPCs though.

 
You were utilizing RL examples. My response is in relation to that.

 

whykikyouwhy wrote...

So in the matter of characters, it's not for me to say that Varric or Merrill must reveal this or that about their background. It's not for me to say that they must tell me how they identify or want to call themselves. If they don't reveal certain aspects of themselves to me/my PC, then that's fine. Lack of that information, lack of that self-appointed label on their part, does not make them cheapen them imo, or make them weak or less.

Are people doing that? Or are you just referring to those who want to know before hand that an NPC of the same gender is going to hit on them? If it's referring to Anders, well my biggest beef is with the disparity between the male and female Hawke, why the devs did it, and what it says about his character.

I'm referring to players who seem to want something firmly declared by the companions to indicate their sexual identity. Some sort of flag, label, bit of conversation that goes beyond a reference to past lovers or liaisons. And thus, because those matters are not "established," or players think that they are based on snippets of conversation or vague references, characters are said to be cheapened when something is perceived as being altered or contrary to assumptions the player made about the characters.

I don't know how each character was written - what the devs had in mind for every single aspect and nuance of a character. Some dialogue was cut, I'm sure. Or saved for DLC or future game cameos and the like. Or some matters were written out and purposely left ambiguous for the player POV. As it is, we only get certain information on each companion based on dialogue choices we make and conversations we initiate. We can conceivably bypass a good portion of their individual backstories. Does that make them any less of a solid character? No. It means that as a player, I needed to chat them up more to see if there was more that they might tell me. But even if we may a RL parallel here, just because you chat a person up doesn't mean that they will reveal everything about themselves, no matter how much he/she may trust you.

[hitenchi]

cJohnOne wrote...

Did anyone watch Table Top on the Geek and Sundry Channel? Sorry for going a little off-topic.

Yes i do it is amusing.

[Reznore57]

@Fandango9641 :

I don't think Isabella is badly done at all , i like her a lot .
The things is portraying bi people in a non "flamboyant" way seems to be a far more perillous exercice.Specialy when it comes to man.
As for Anders , I had a boyfriend once who told me he had a gay affair.Let's just say it took a lot of beer , years of relationship and me being quite open minded about sexuality for this confession to come up.
So Anders not telling or feeling the need to confess about Karl to FHawke doesn't shock me much.
And besides is this really a big deal ...?I'm not sure .

[nightscrawl]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

We can conceivably bypass a good portion of their individual backstories. Does that make them any less of a solid character? No. It means that as a player, I needed to chat them up more to see if there was more that they might tell me. But even if we may a RL parallel here, just because you chat a person up doesn't mean that they will reveal everything about themselves, no matter how much he/she may trust you.

I am fine with all of that in relation to all NPCs except Anders. I would be fine it it were consistent for both genders of Hawke and Anders. As far as I know, his is the only romance this applies to.

If my male Hawke consoled Anders about the death of his friend and Anders just said "yeah, thanks" and we went onto flirt and romance I would be perfectly fine with that. Hearing about Karl is not necessary to show that Anders has a potential interest in male partners. So, David or Jennifer might say that this issue with Karl relates to Anders with the templars and oppression of mages and all of that, and I would totally agree, again, if it were the same for both genders of Hawke. Because there seems to be no reason for Anders preferring to tell male Hawke this and withhold it from female Hawke, I can only assume that the relationship didn't happen if you are playing a female Hawke, and yes, I do think that that cheapens Anders as a character because he is not being consistent with himself or being true to his thoughts and feelings, whatever they are.

If you want to talk about characters not feeling that they need to tell the world (or just your PC) about themselves (as you and David both have), their preferences and so forth -- which I agree with -- you must take into consideration that it does not apply to Anders and male Hawke, because he did volunteer the information. For some reason, Anders feels compelled to tell male Hawke this even though they are practically strangers and he doesn't know Hawke from Maferath.

Reznore57 wrote...

As for Anders , I had a boyfriend once who told me he had a gay affair.Let's just say it took a lot of beer , years of relationship and me being quite open minded about sexuality for this confession to come up.
So Anders not telling or feeling the need to confess about Karl to FHawke doesn't shock me much.
And besides is this really a big deal ...?I'm not sure .

I've thought of this myself. Firstly, it goes to sexuality in Thedas (which is another thread somewhere) and whether/how homosexuality is treated by that society. Anders making a conscious decision to not tell a female Hawke this fearing that, while having an interest in her, it would scare her away or at the very least the initial reaction would be negative, does say something about Theodesian society. Even the fact that Anders asks male Hawke if it "bothers" him is indicative that it's not a totally open and accepting society.

Perhaps I'm not making myself clear. The big deal is not that Anders does this in the game. I find the inconsistency irritating, but they wanted to do it that way so I'll live with it. The big deal is that you have a dev like DG who makes a point of saying that an NPC shouldn't have to tell the world his/her preferences, that it is none of our businesses, as it wouldn't be in real life, but that does not jive with the very fact that Anders does in that instance, and that one instance only. If it were part of his innate personality, as with Isabela, and he told both genders, or didn't tell either of them, then I could accept it. The reverse of this is that people (including devs) think it's OK for Anders to have a different personality if your PC is male (regardless of your romancng him) than the personality for a female PC.

I'm not talking about conjecture or anything else here. The immutable fact of the conversations in the game world does not support the argument.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 29 mai 2012 - 03:01 .

[robertthebard]

nightscrawl wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

We can conceivably bypass a good portion of their individual backstories. Does that make them any less of a solid character? No. It means that as a player, I needed to chat them up more to see if there was more that they might tell me. But even if we may a RL parallel here, just because you chat a person up doesn't mean that they will reveal everything about themselves, no matter how much he/she may trust you.

I am fine with all of that in relation to all NPCs except Anders. I would be fine it it were consistent for both genders of Hawke and Anders. As far as I know, his is the only romance this applies to.

If my male Hawke consoled Anders about the death of his friend and Anders just said "yeah, thanks" and we went onto flirt and romance I would be perfectly fine with that. Hearing about Karl is not necessary to show that Anders has a potential interest in male partners. So, David or Jennifer might say that this issue with Karl relates to Anders with the templars and oppression of mages and all of that, and I would totally agree, again, if it were the same for both genders of Hawke. Because there seems to be no reason for Anders preferring to tell male Hawke this and withhold it from female Hawke, I can only assume that the relationship didn't happen if you are playing a female Hawke, and yes, I do think that that cheapens Anders as a character because he is not being consistent with himself or being true to his thoughts and feelings, whatever they are.

If you want to talk about characters not feeling that they need to tell the world (or just your PC) about themselves (as you and David both have), their preferences and so forth -- which I agree with -- you must take into consideration that it does not apply to Anders and male Hawke, because he did volunteer the information. For some reason, Anders feels compelled to tell male Hawke this even though they are practically strangers and he doesn't know Hawke from Maferath.

Reznore57 wrote...

As for Anders , I had a boyfriend once who told me he had a gay affair.Let's just say it took a lot of beer , years of relationship and me being quite open minded about sexuality for this confession to come up.
So Anders not telling or feeling the need to confess about Karl to FHawke doesn't shock me much.
And besides is this really a big deal ...?I'm not sure .

I've thought of this myself. Firstly, it goes to sexuality in Thedas (which is another thread somewhere) and whether/how homosexuality is treated by that society. Anders making a conscious decision to not tell a female Hawke this fearing that, while having an interest in her, it would scare her away or at the very least the initial reaction would be negative, does say something about Theodesian society. Even the fact that Anders asks male Hawke if it "bothers" him is indicative that it's not a totally open and accepting society.

Perhaps I'm not making myself clear. The big deal is not that Anders does this in the game. I find the inconsistency irritating, but they wanted to do it that way so I'll live with it. The big deal is that you have a dev like DG who makes a point of saying that an NPC shouldn't have to tell the world his/her preferences, that it is none of our businesses, as it wouldn't be in real life, but that does not jive with the very fact that Anders does in that instance, and that one instance only. If it were part of his innate personality, as with Isabela, and he told both genders, or didn't tell either of them, then I could accept it. The reverse of this is that people (including devs) think it's OK for Anders to have a different personality if your PC is male (regardless of your romancng him) than the personality for a female PC.

I'm not talking about conjecture or anything else here. The immutable fact of the conversations in the game world does not support the argument.

It actually says more about Anders, and frankly, since he's the way he is, it's not surprising he doesn't want to talk about it to fHawke.  Essentially, he is a coward.  He's afraid of rejection, afraid of the Templars, afraid of the Chantry, and afraid of public opinion, to the point he actually lives up to the stereotype he tries to say everyone in Thedas has about mages.  Clarification:  Is he an Apostate?  Yes.  Is he an abomination?  To some extent, yes, he is, after all, possessed by a fade spirit, and he can lose control of himself, and commit murder, prior to the events that lead up to the climax in Act III.  Is he a menace to society?  Yes, and I don't think I need to clarify that too much.  So no, it's not a statement about Thedas in general, or the society's views on sexuality, it's a commentary on Anders' basic nature.

His sexuality, or herosexuality, doesn't define him in any way, it just opens up avenues for people that want to explore that small part of him.  I love the "being bi makes him watered down, but I'm not talking about sexuality" thing.  That's a typical homophobic response.  Just like "I'm not prejudice" is the ultimate in racism.  If it weren't an issue, it wouldn't keep coming up.  To anyone that didn't pick up on Anders' sexuality before actually having him in party, did you just push escape through his interaction with Karl?  They give you a very deliberate close up of his face when he's doing what he has to do, and you can see there's something there that goes unspoken if you never talk about it, or don't romance him on mHawke, and will never come up with fHawke.  What does who he sleeps with, or not, do to affect who he is?  Nothing in my book, but apparently, for all the "sexuality doesn't matter" comments, it apparently breaks his character for some people, and frankly, as has been put forward before, that's not a game problem, that's a player issue, whether they want to own it or not.  It, just like the people that took issue with "Don't worry Oren, you'll see a sword up close really soon, I promise" can easily be avoided by not having the dialog that leads to it.  If you take the hard line with him about the events in the Chantry in Act I, you'll avoid the issue all together.

[David Gaider]

Fandango9641 wrote...
Thanks for the question Jonathan. For me, any talk of metagaming notwithstanding, having NPC’s reinvent themselves to suit the demands of a single player or protagonist is weak and it’s my view (though it appears David disagrees) it cheapens characterisation. I mean, let’s take sexuality out of the equation for a moment and talk magic. Would people support the idea of having Anders and Fenris flip-flop on their views about blood magic to suit those of the player? If so, what would they even stand for?

Those things are not equal.

Anders and Fenris explicitly discuss their views on mages and blood magic. If the player being a mage or not changed their views, that would indeed change their character to suit the player.

Neither Anders nor Fenris discuss their sexual preferences. They do not say "I'm gay" if the player is male and "I'm straight" if the player is female. Nor do they say they're bisexual. They don't discuss their sexuality at all. You are inferring their sexuality based on their actions, and then claiming that your inference is an objective truth. It strikes me as a "straight until proven gay" kind of attitude where "bisexuality" is some kind of inconsistent character flaw. Which is charming, really.

If you really can't see the difference between these things, then we haven't much to discuss.

[robertthebard]

Fandango9641 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

His sexuality, or herosexuality, doesn't define him in any way, it just opens up avenues for people that want to explore that small part of him.  I love the "being bi makes him watered down, but I'm not talking about sexuality" thing.  That's a typical homophobic response.

Every word absolute garbage.

That's a quality retort.  Care to clarify what makes it garbage?  If not, I'll give you my impression of why you think it is:  You can't refute it any other way.  Now, maybe it's a trap.  Maybe in trying to deny the statements made, you would open yourself up to "Methinks thou dost protest too much".  The other possibility is that it struck a nerve.  It resonated on something within you that you don't want to own.  I didn't like Anders in Awakening, and it carried over to here.  He reminds me too much of Alistair, and if you wonder my impression of him, check out my sig.  Not the link, that's my youtube, but that box of Kleenex was invented specifically for Alistair.

[cJohnOne]

hitenchi wrote...

cJohnOne wrote...

Did anyone watch Table Top on the Geek and Sundry Channel? Sorry for going a little off-topic.

Yes i do it is amusing.

Thanks for posting.  Felicia Day is suppose to be on Table Top this Friday.

Modifié par cJohnOne, 29 mai 2012 - 04:05 .

[AkiKishi]

Fandango9641 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

His sexuality, or herosexuality, doesn't define him in any way, it just opens up avenues for people that want to explore that small part of him.  I love the "being bi makes him watered down, but I'm not talking about sexuality" thing.  That's a typical homophobic response.

Every word absolute garbage.

That's an unfortunate choice of words..poor Anders

Anyway if you are viewing someone as a potential partner , there is a certain ammount of feeling out (verbal).

Modifié par BobSmith101, 29 mai 2012 - 04:04 .

[robertthebard]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

His sexuality, or herosexuality, doesn't define him in any way, it just opens up avenues for people that want to explore that small part of him.  I love the "being bi makes him watered down, but I'm not talking about sexuality" thing.  That's a typical homophobic response.

Every word absolute garbage.

That's an unfortunate choice of words..poor Anders

Anyway if you are viewing someone as a potential partner , there is a certain ammount of feeling out (verbal).

er...I guess that was an unfortunate choice of words...



or was it????

[HiroVoid]

robertthebard wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

His sexuality, or herosexuality, doesn't define him in any way, it just opens up avenues for people that want to explore that small part of him.  I love the "being bi makes him watered down, but I'm not talking about sexuality" thing.  That's a typical homophobic response.

Every word absolute garbage.

That's a quality retort.  Care to clarify what makes it garbage?  If not, I'll give you my impression of why you think it is:  You can't refute it any other way.  Now, maybe it's a trap.  Maybe in trying to deny the statements made, you would open yourself up to "Methinks thou dost protest too much".  The other possibility is that it struck a nerve.  It resonated on something within you that you don't want to own.  I didn't like Anders in Awakening, and it carried over to here.  He reminds me too much of Alistair, and if you wonder my impression of him, check out my sig.  Not the link, that's my youtube, but that box of Kleenex was invented specifically for Alistair.

You insulted him by insinuating he was homophobic through his response.  He insulted you back.  That shouldn't be hard to understand.  There was very good discussion going on on this topic before resorting to that.  Do you'll really want to go down that road where the discussion between two different viewpoints just goes down to insulting each other?

*Looks at link*
Holy crap!  You still use Myspace!?  *Surprised*

[AkiKishi]

HiroVoid wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

His sexuality, or herosexuality, doesn't define him in any way, it just opens up avenues for people that want to explore that small part of him.  I love the "being bi makes him watered down, but I'm not talking about sexuality" thing.  That's a typical homophobic response.

Every word absolute garbage.

That's a quality retort.  Care to clarify what makes it garbage?  If not, I'll give you my impression of why you think it is:  You can't refute it any other way.  Now, maybe it's a trap.  Maybe in trying to deny the statements made, you would open yourself up to "Methinks thou dost protest too much".  The other possibility is that it struck a nerve.  It resonated on something within you that you don't want to own.  I didn't like Anders in Awakening, and it carried over to here.  He reminds me too much of Alistair, and if you wonder my impression of him, check out my sig.  Not the link, that's my youtube, but that box of Kleenex was invented specifically for Alistair.

You insulted him by insinuating he was homophobic through his response.  He insulted you back.  That shouldn't be hard to understand.  There was very good discussion going on on this topic before resorting to that.  Do you'll really want to go down that road where the discussion between two different viewpoints just goes down to insulting each other?

*Looks at link*
Holy crap!  You still use Myspace!?  *Surprised*

It's pretty logical really. Zev was Bi 100% of the time he was written that way whatever the PC was. Making a character flip-flop means either using less lines (since you need to cover 2 variations) or making the able to fit either role by making them less defined.

To put it another way you get 100% of Zev but only 50% of Anders.

Varric/Aveline were even better because no compromise was needed to make them romanceable for anyone.

[David Gaider]

Fandango9641 wrote...
As for your second point, I’m not claiming anything to be an objective truth, more than I’m stating a personal preference for a certain approach to NPC characterisation.

Which sounds reasonable, until one looks at what you're actually saying. But fair enough.

Have a good day now David Gaider, I think I’m just about done talking to you too.

As you wish. If you can't convince me that you have a point, however, you're unlikely to get what you want. But I guess you might enjoy discussing it with people. So there you go.

[HiroVoid]

David Gaider wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...
As for your second point, I’m not claiming anything to be an objective truth, more than I’m stating a personal preference for a certain approach to NPC characterisation.

As you wish. If you can't convince me that you have a point, however, you're unlikely to get what you want. But I guess you might enjoy discussing it with people. So there you go.

Just out of curiosity, are there any points you've ever seen on here that you have gone 'Okay.  I can see how that could work, and we might give that a shot.'  Not saying you have to point out any examples though that would be pretty cool, but I am curious.  I remember a very interesting thread a while back from someone who said they were transexual, and talking about Serendipity's appearance in Mark of the Assassin that was particularly good.  I know at least in the desgin department, we have the new customizable armor and unique look idea that came from feedback.

[David Gaider]

HiroVoid wrote...
Just out of curiosity, are there any points you've ever seen on here that you have gone 'Okay.  I can see how that could work, and we might give that a shot.'  Not saying you have to point out any examples though that would be pretty cool, but I am curious.

There are things I have read where I've said "That's a good point", yes. They don't often come with practical solutions, however. Which is not a jab at the people making those points, as there's no reason to expect them to know anything about the limitations we face as developers or even care. So while I would say it's pretty rare that someone makes a proposal on the forums which we simply implement, there are occasionally discussions which we observe and take something away from them when we go back to our jobs-- I can say for certain there have been things brought up on the forums which have worked their way into discussions of our own in meetings and so forth.

So you guys can and sometimes do influence our thinking, yes. If that's what you're looking to do, as opposed to simply venting or spending your time wishing we were making something else completely. In terms of directly implementing suggestions, however, not so much.

[robertthebard]

HiroVoid wrote...

You insulted him by insinuating he was homophobic through his response.  He insulted you back.  That shouldn't be hard to understand.  There was very good discussion going on on this topic before resorting to that.  Do you'll really want to go down that road where the discussion between two different viewpoints just goes down to insulting each other?

*Looks at link*
Holy crap!  You still use Myspace!?  *Surprised*

Actually, if you reread the post, I didn't call anyone homophobic, I just suggested that it was a homophobic response.  That he picked up the ball and ran with it says more than anything I'd ever dream of posting here.  Not that I'm a high society, prim and proper man, that's probably the farthest thing from the truth.  Now, I did call the response into question, and his response to my calling it into question might as well be quoting the post I quoted.

Now, if he could show how being herosexual adversly affects gameplay, I'd be more than happy to withdraw it.  It doesn't change his particular story arc any at all, and other than a couple of lines of dialog that one Hawke might get that the other won't, it doesn't add or take away from the game, any more than him actually being in it does, IMHO anyway.  Of course, I don't like Anders, but his sexuality, which was never an issue in Awakening, isn't part of the problem.  I just don't like Anders.  So it's kind of funny that I find myself defending his Maker given right to love the protagonist, no matter what gender the protagonist might be.

The MySpace link was added the same time the sig was, so sometime in 2009, maybe 2010, not sure.  I was away doing other things for a couple of years, so I wasn't around, and keeping it current wasn't, and isn't on the top of my priority list.  In fact, I can't even access that account anymore.  I tried so I could close it, but I couldn't remember my PW.  I hate being old.

[nightscrawl]

robertthebard wrote...

His sexuality, or herosexuality, doesn't define him in any way, it just opens up avenues for people that want to explore that small part of him.  I love the "being bi makes him watered down, but I'm not talking about sexuality" thing.  That's a typical homophobic response.  Just like "I'm not prejudice" is the ultimate in racism.  If it weren't an issue, it wouldn't keep coming up.  To anyone that didn't pick up on Anders' sexuality before actually having him in party, did you just push escape through his interaction with Karl?  They give you a very deliberate close up of his face when he's doing what he has to do, and you can see there's something there that goes unspoken if you never talk about it, or don't romance him on mHawke, and will never come up with fHawke.  What does who he sleeps with, or not, do to affect who he is?  Nothing in my book, but apparently, for all the "sexuality doesn't matter" comments, it apparently breaks his character for some people, and frankly, as has been put forward before, that's not a game problem, that's a player issue, whether they want to own it or not.  It, just like the people that took issue with "Don't worry Oren, you'll see a sword up close really soon, I promise" can easily be avoided by not having the dialog that leads to it.  If you take the hard line with him about the events in the Chantry in Act I, you'll avoid the issue all together.

I think you are deliberately misunderstanding me and trying to paint me as a homophobe simply because I don't share your same views on the character.

I don't understand what it is about my statements that people are not getting. I don't care about Anders's sexuality as an issue by itself. My point is in the disparity between male and female Hawke that does not exist with any other LI or in fact any other NPC in Dragon Age. I want to know what about Anders makes him special in the eyes of the devs that they decided to single him out in this way. That is my SOLE ISSUE. I have done m/f and friend/rival romances with Anders and Fenris and like them all.

As to your point about his reaction during the scene with Karl, I've played DA2 a dozen times. Literally, TWELVE times, and I watch all of the cinematic conversations because I enjoy them. Most of your statement about his reaction is conjecture and purely subjective. He is sticking a knife into his friend's gut. Lover or not I would expect him to have a strong emotional reaction. In addition, he is doing it after learning that this "rescue" attempt has been in vain, and that what he feared most for Karl, indeed what he fears for himself as well, that he would be made tranquil, has come to pass, adding to the intense emotions for Anders. It does NOT have to be about love or romance or sex to be that emotional.

But emotions, situations and facial expressions can be subjective, which is the primary reason I have left out all of those things in my statements, preferring only to talk about what Anders actually says to each gender of Hawke. I've played both genders many times, I've listened to ALL of the conversation options. Again, why does Anders feel it's safe, OK, or whatever phrase you choose to mention Karl as his lover to male Hawke, but not to female Hawke? WHY? You don't know the answer, nobody does except the devs. All you have is conjecture. That disparity connotes a change in personality, or in his thinking or in something between male and female Hawke. It was not written in a vacuum.

Finally, I think the dialogue about Karl is far more interesting, even if you don't romance Anders, than the melodramatic tripe that female Hawke has to put up with. For that reason alone, if I do play a female Hawke and plan on romancing Anders I completely avoid the flirting and diplomatic/blue options and stick with the humor just so I avoid all of that.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 29 mai 2012 - 05:56 .

[robertthebard]

nightscrawl wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

His sexuality, or herosexuality, doesn't define him in any way, it just opens up avenues for people that want to explore that small part of him.  I love the "being bi makes him watered down, but I'm not talking about sexuality" thing.  That's a typical homophobic response.  Just like "I'm not prejudice" is the ultimate in racism.  If it weren't an issue, it wouldn't keep coming up.  To anyone that didn't pick up on Anders' sexuality before actually having him in party, did you just push escape through his interaction with Karl?  They give you a very deliberate close up of his face when he's doing what he has to do, and you can see there's something there that goes unspoken if you never talk about it, or don't romance him on mHawke, and will never come up with fHawke.  What does who he sleeps with, or not, do to affect who he is?  Nothing in my book, but apparently, for all the "sexuality doesn't matter" comments, it apparently breaks his character for some people, and frankly, as has been put forward before, that's not a game problem, that's a player issue, whether they want to own it or not.  It, just like the people that took issue with "Don't worry Oren, you'll see a sword up close really soon, I promise" can easily be avoided by not having the dialog that leads to it.  If you take the hard line with him about the events in the Chantry in Act I, you'll avoid the issue all together.

I think you are deliberately misunderstanding me and trying to paint me as a homophobe simply because I don't share your same views on the character.

I don't understand what it is about my statements that people are not getting. I don't care about Anders's sexuality as an issue by itself. My point is in the disparity between male and female Hawke that does not exist with any other LI or in fact any other NPC in Dragon Age. I want to know what about Anders makes him special in the eyes of the devs that they decided to single him out in this way. That is my SOLE ISSUE. I have done m/f and friend/rival romances with Anders and Fenris and like them all.

As to your point about his reaction during the scene with Karl, I've played DA2 a dozen times. Literally, TWELVE times, and I watch all of the cinematic conversations because I enjoy them. Most of your statement about his reaction is conjecture and purely subjective. He is sticking a knife into his friend's gut. Lover or not I would expect him to have a strong emotional reaction. In addition, he is doing it after learning that this "rescue" attempt has been in vain, and that what he feared most for Karl, indeed what he fears for himself as well, that he would be made tranquil, has come to pass, adding to the intense emotions for Anders. It does NOT have to be about love or romance or sex to be that emotional.

But emotions, situations and facial expressions can be subjective, which is the primary reason I have left out all of those things in my statements, preferring only to talk about what Anders actually says to each gender of Hawke. I've played both genders many times, I've listened to ALL of the conversation options. Again, why does Anders feel it's safe, OK, or whatever phrase you choose to mention Karl as his lover to male Hawke, but not to female Hawke? WHY? You don't know the answer, nobody does except the devs. All you have is conjecture. That disparity connotes a change in personality, or in his thinking or in something between male and female Hawke. It was not written in a vacuum.

Finally, I think the dialogue about Karl is far more interesting, even if you don't romance Anders, than the melodramatic tripe that female Hawke has to put up with. For that reason alone, if I do play a female Hawke and plan on romancing Anders I completely avoid the flirting and diplomatic/blue options and stick with the humor just so I avoid all of that.

Allow me to copy/paste the response I wrote out to your post, which you snipped to type this reply:

robertthebard wrote...  It actually says more about Anders, and frankly, since he's the way he is, it's not surprising he doesn't want to talk about it to fHawke. Essentially, he is a coward. He's afraid of rejection, afraid of the Templars, afraid of the Chantry, and afraid of public opinion, to the point he actually lives up to the stereotype he tries to say everyone in Thedas has about mages. Clarification: Is he an Apostate? Yes. Is he an abomination? To some extent, yes, he is, after all, possessed by a fade spirit, and he can lose control of himself, and commit murder, prior to the events that lead up to the climax in Act III. Is he a menace to society? Yes, and I don't think I need to clarify that too much. So no, it's not a statement about Thedas in general, or the society's views on sexuality, it's a commentary on Anders' basic nature.

If Anders is not a coward, why did he not, since he was looking to be a martyr anyway, kill the Grand Cleric face to face?  Fear of failure?  We know he escaped from the circle a lot of times, I don't remember how many off the top of my head, but how do we know that?  Because he's always been recaptured.  So either he's a failure at getting away, or a great success at getting caught.  Either way, instead of going after his target directly, he chooses to lie and manipulate the protaganist into helping him do his dirty work.  Although he does get somebody else to help him if you don't, for story purposes.  How do his missed lines adversely affect the culmination of his story?  They don't.  They don't enrich him, or degrade him any more than he does himself.  Add to this that fHawke should have no way to know she's missing anything, barring metagaming, and at that point, what's it matter anyway?

ETA:  Since you can skip the one quest where the deed is set up, and it still gets set up, I don't see how a varied dialog can have any affect on the game, since you will miss out on all that dialog if you opt to not do that quest.

Modifié par robertthebard, 29 mai 2012 - 06:11 .

[HiroVoid]

robertthebard wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

You insulted him by insinuating he was homophobic through his response.  He insulted you back.  That shouldn't be hard to understand.  There was very good discussion going on on this topic before resorting to that.  Do you'll really want to go down that road where the discussion between two different viewpoints just goes down to insulting each other?

*Looks at link*
Holy crap!  You still use Myspace!?  *Surprised*

Actually, if you reread the post, I didn't call anyone homophobic, I just suggested that it was a homophobic response.  That he picked up the ball and ran with it says more than anything I'd ever dream of posting here.  Not that I'm a high society, prim and proper man, that's probably the farthest thing from the truth.  Now, I did call the response into question, and his response to my calling it into question might as well be quoting the post I quoted.

True.  I could have worded that better, but the way its worded can certainly imply that.  'Your reply is typical of homophobic people'  can certainly be taken as a subtle aggresive view of how you see him as a person.  I'm not saying you have to agree about it, but from his point of view, I can see how that would easily be seen as an insult.

Personally, I like your reason that he just responds differently to male and female Hawkes for the reason of him mentioning Karl is his subtle attempt at trying to see if Hawke is into men just like I always thought Leliana's complimenting of the female warden in DAO was her way of subtly trying to get hints from the warden.  I can see how this may come off as it just being a reason to appeal to straight female players though.(though I've known too many slash fans to think that. ).

I do disagree with you on the 'they were obviously lovers' though since there were plenty of factors in play in that scene.  They also could have just been really good friends too.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 29 mai 2012 - 08:51 .

[robertthebard]

HiroVoid wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

You insulted him by insinuating he was homophobic through his response.  He insulted you back.  That shouldn't be hard to understand.  There was very good discussion going on on this topic before resorting to that.  Do you'll really want to go down that road where the discussion between two different viewpoints just goes down to insulting each other?

*Looks at link*
Holy crap!  You still use Myspace!?  *Surprised*

Actually, if you reread the post, I didn't call anyone homophobic, I just suggested that it was a homophobic response.  That he picked up the ball and ran with it says more than anything I'd ever dream of posting here.  Not that I'm a high society, prim and proper man, that's probably the farthest thing from the truth.  Now, I did call the response into question, and his response to my calling it into question might as well be quoting the post I quoted.

True.  I could have worded that better, but the way its worded can certainly imply that.  'Your reply is typical of homophobic people'  can certainly be taken as a subtle aggresive view of how you see him as a person.  I'm not saying you have to agree about it, but from his point of view, I can see how that would easily be seen as an insult.

Personally, I like your reason that he just responds differently to male and female Hawkes for the reason of him mentioning Karl is his subtle attempt at trying to see if Hawke is into men just like I always thought Leliana's complimenting of the female warden in DAO was her way of subtly trying to get hints from the warden.  I can see how this may come off as it just being a reason to appeal to straight female players(though I've known too many slash fans to think that. ).

I do disagree with you on the 'they were obviously lovers' though since there were plenty of factors in play in that scene.  They also could have just been really good friends too.

It never occured to me that they might have been lovers until he actually hit on my mHawke.  However, I came away with the impression that there was more to the story than I was being told.  Turns out I may have been right...