13 réponses à ce sujet

[4bs.zer0]

Looking at cla_data.gda one would assume this should be doable, but the in-game GUI looks hardcoded to 4 per class. If the game can indeed load more then 4, is there a way to mod the in-game GUI to make it work?

Anyone know if this is possible?

[sajahVarel]

If the system is the same as the craft icons, you're doomed ^^, cause the specialisation will indeed be added in the list, but the icon won't show, so you will never get it unless you modify the GUI (and it seems a bit of a pain...). By the way, even with the 2DA and the scripts this is the hell of a job, making a whole new class seems way faster (and it's pretty long already). but the main problem is that class modding is a pain cause up to a certain point M2DAs don't work well and you won't be able to get 2 class mods for the same campain (one will just be skipped...).

[4bs.zer0]

As I understand it, the stuff is there. Hopefully, Bioware will add some left-right arrows for specialization GUI to allow loading of unlimited number of entries.

[NPacetti]

That'd be great. What specializations are you thinking of adding?

[ladydesire]

sajahVarel wrote...

but the main problem is that class modding is a pain cause up to a certain point M2DAs don't work well and you won't be able to get 2 class mods for the same campain (one will just be skipped...).

Only true if the two class mods use the same rows in the 2da; the entire point of M2DAs is to make manual merging of 2da files unneeded to be able to use multiple class packs at the same time.

[sajahVarel]

This is not the only problem, CLA_base is only the tip of the iceberg, races, classes and backgrounds references in the 2DA are combined by a formula in the chargen scripts to get the starting equipment reference, so just putting a random number won't work, and even if they don't cross in one 2DA, there is always the probability of crossing in the starting equipment ref..., so when you make a new class you have to move everything, it's why I said that using a mod with a new class actually wipe all others mods, because you just simply can't use m2DA like that.
If you look here you will see what i'm talking about : social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/72/index/266739/2#289198.

[4bs.zer0]

Personally, I would much rather see more specializations for each class, rather then more classes. I would even prefer if these 3 classes didn't even exist. I mean, I'd like it much more to be able to create a classless character and then *specialize* into "dual wielding/entropist/reaver/assasin/" or whichever combination; unlocking talent/spell trees by spending specialization points. :-)



Back on topic:



Assuming I add additional specializations into cla_data.gda, and do all the necessary steps to make it work:



Does DA engine actually load all of them, but only displays 4 'cause GUI is hard-coded? If so, would it be possible to modify the character GUI to simply add left-right arrows to the specializations part and allow scrolling through all available specializations? And, if so - how? :-)



Or, is DA engine itself hard-coded to only load 4 and it's simply not possible to do what I desire?

[ladydesire]

sajahVarel wrote...

This is not the only problem, CLA_base is only the tip of the iceberg, races, classes and backgrounds references in the 2DA are combined by a formula in the chargen scripts to get the starting equipment reference, so just putting a random number won't work, and even if they don't cross in one 2DA, there is always the probability of crossing in the starting equipment ref..., so when you make a new class you have to move everything, it's why I said that using a mod with a new class actually wipe all others mods, because you just simply can't use m2DA like that.
If you look here you will see what i'm talking about : social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/72/index/266739/2#289198.

Here is what the Wiki states about M2DA's;

An "M2DA" is a "Multiple 2DA" that stacks a number of 2DA files into
one larger table. They work much like single 2DA files except they can
be patched or expanded later by adding more resources. These are useful
for any table that lists other resources, such as appearance tables, so
that new resources can be added later without having to modify a
monolithic table.
This is especially important for third-party modders, since
BioWare might release an update to a core table at a later date that
would overwrite any changes third parties had made to it. By using an
M2DA with a unique name, and by using a range of ID numbers
significantly separated from those already in use, you can ensure that
your additions won't conflict with other portions of the M2DA.

In other words, Bioware specifically designed the system so that modders would be able to create individual 2da files that the game engine would merge automatically, without us having to do it manually; I know how much of a pain this is, since I maintain a custom content pack for NWN2 that requires manual merging each time one developer's work changes.

[ladydesire]

4bs.zer0 wrote...

Personally, I would much rather see more specializations for each class, rather then more classes. I would even prefer if these 3 classes didn't even exist. I mean, I'd like it much more to be able to create a classless character and then *specialize* into "dual wielding/entropist/reaver/assasin/" or whichever combination; unlocking talent/spell trees by spending specialization points. :-)

Back on topic:

Assuming I add additional specializations into cla_data.gda, and do all the necessary steps to make it work:

Does DA engine actually load all of them, but only displays 4 'cause GUI is hard-coded? If so, would it be possible to modify the character GUI to simply add left-right arrows to the specializations part and allow scrolling through all available specializations? And, if so - how? :-)

Or, is DA engine itself hard-coded to only load 4 and it's simply not possible to do what I desire?

I believe Bioware is working on a fix for this, since it's a big obstacle to custom classes and specializations.

[4bs.zer0]

ladydesire wrote...
In other words, Bioware specifically designed the system so that modders would be able to create individual 2da files that the game engine would merge automatically, without us having to do it manually; I know how much of a pain this is, since I maintain a custom content pack for NWN2 that requires manual merging each time one developer's work changes.

Useful, for sure. Makes it easy to maintain compatibility with future patches from Bioware. However, it still doesn't make your modifications automatically compatible with other people's mods. You still need to check which ranges other mods are using and adjust yours. It's unlikely only you in the whole world will come up with "i'll use 300-400 range; it's bulletproof!". :-)

The way I see it, using something more complex then integer for unique identifiers would ensure 99.99% chance conflicts never happen. Allowing something like "ladydesire_123", "sajahVarel_123", "bioware_123" to act as 2da row identifiers would make it so much simpler. And, with M2DA thingy, you'd never have to deal with compatiblity issues against other mods (specially the ones you don't even know exist). Well, unless someone came up with the same ID naming system, which is infinitly less likely then with integers.

Perhaps there's a good reason why Bioware chose integer and I just don't see it.

ladydesire wrote...
I believe Bioware is working on a fix for this, since it's a big obstacle to custom classes and specializations.

Good news. Not having something like this available by default in a product advertised as highly moddable is just...disappointing. Even moreso, knowing Bioware already had done it with NWN.

Modifié par 4bs.zer0, 11 décembre 2009 - 09:10 .

[ladydesire]

4bs.zer0 wrote...

ladydesire wrote...
In other words, Bioware specifically designed the system so that modders would be able to create individual 2da files that the game engine would merge automatically, without us having to do it manually; I know how much of a pain this is, since I maintain a custom content pack for NWN2 that requires manual merging each time one developer's work changes.

Useful, for sure. Makes it easy to maintain compatibility with future patches from Bioware. However, it still doesn't make your modifications automatically compatible with other people's mods. You still need to check which ranges other mods are using and adjust yours. It's unlikely only you in the whole world will come up with "i'll use 300-400 range; it's bulletproof!". :-)

Well, with the following link to the toolset wiki, anyone that wants to know what 2da ID ranges are in use can find them, 2da Ranges in use; this is also what was done by some major mod developers in NWN2 (including myself).

The way I see it, using something more complex then integer for unique identifiers would ensure 99.99% chance conflicts never happen. Allowing something like "ladydesire_123", "sajahVarel_123", "bioware_123" to act as 2da row identifiers would make it so much simpler. And, with M2DA thingy, you'd never have to deal with compatiblity issues against other mods (specially the ones you don't even know exist). Well, unless someone came up with the same ID naming system, which is infinitly less likely then with integers.

Perhaps there's a good reason why Bioware chose integer and I just don't see it.

See above; this is one reason why Bioware got involved this deeply with actually running the wiki in DA, rather than having the community have to fend for itself like it was for NWN and NWN2.

ladydesire wrote...
I believe Bioware is working on a fix for this, since it's a big obstacle to custom classes and specializations.

Good news. Not having something like this available by default in a product advertised as highly moddable is just...disappointing. Even moreso, knowing Bioware already had done it with NWN.

Agreed; I was somewhat shocked when I heard that they had gone with a proprietary interface system instead of using XML like NWN2 does, but if they can unlock it for us, it's still better than NWN.

[4bs.zer0]

Thanks for the link; I wasn't aware of it.



Still, I feel complex ID system that provides private ID namespace to each modder (hell, even to each mod) would be a better approach. Wiki range listing, be it run by Bioware or not, is... crude.

[ladydesire]

4bs.zer0 wrote...

Thanks for the link; I wasn't aware of it.

Still, I feel complex ID system that provides private ID namespace to each modder (hell, even to each mod) would be a better approach. Wiki range listing, be it run by Bioware or not, is... crude.

The modder's custom 2da files are the private namespace, so to speak; on my current project, my custom M2DA's are suffixed with my forum username so that they will stand out from everyone else's.

[Ashmaran]

For now I think the best way to do this is have an NPC in camp that can teach your new specialisations (have a conversation tree which has a script attached), since I'm not sure modding the GUI is going to eventuate anytime soon.