48 réponses à ce sujet

[TSAdmiral]

The dexterity hotfix fixed both dagger damage and bows. I can't see any mention of bows in the patch notes. Have they been fixed? 

[Dark83]

Bows never needed "fixing", as it was never bugged to begin with. They were just experimenting with rebalancing bows with the hotfix.

[Pimpmyvanagon]

Uh, bows never needed fixing?



Correct me if I'm wrong, but they:



Do not get damage bonus from Dexterity (especially bad with crossbows, since they ONLY use Dexterity to determine bonus damage)

Cannot be used to backstab (and so do not function with most of the Rogue talents)



Looks pretty broken to me. And I didn't see anything in the 1.02 patchnotes that would imply they've been fixed.

[Ranik15]

Dark83 wrote...

Bows never needed "fixing", as it was never bugged to begin with. They were just experimenting with rebalancing bows with the hotfix.

If a dev releases something called a hotfix, yeah the bows are bugged. They are/were bugged in the sense that dexterity wasn't properly applying for damage/attack purposes.

So, you saying they were never bugged to begin with is well...

[Matthew Young CT]

Pimpmyvanagon wrote...
Do not get damage bonus from Dexterity (especially bad with crossbows, since they ONLY use Dexterity to determine bonus damage)

crossbows are bugged yes, longbows and shortbows get 50% str 50% dex and are WAD.

Cannot be used to backstab (and so do not function with most of the Rogue talents)

WAD.

Looks pretty broken to me. And I didn't see anything in the 1.02 patchnotes that would imply they've been fixed.

get information from more reliable places!

[Pimpmyvanagon]

Matthew Young CT wrote...

Pimpmyvanagon wrote...
Cannot be used to backstab (and so do not function with most of the Rogue talents)

WAD.

Was this actually stated to be the case somewhere, or are you just assuming? I'd be interested in seeing the rationalization for making one of the two Rogue weapons trees incompatible with more than half the class talents, and entirely useless with two of the four class specializations.

[Pennoyer]

Pimpmyvanagon wrote...

Matthew Young CT wrote...

Pimpmyvanagon wrote...
Cannot be used to backstab (and so do not function with most of the Rogue talents)

WAD.

Was this actually stated to be the case somewhere, or are you just assuming? I'd be interested in seeing the rationalization for making one of the two Rogue weapons trees incompatible with more than half the class talents, and entirely useless with two of the four class specializations.

Bows do crit damage if used right out of stealth.  Do you mean they should get backstab damage just by flanking someone?  I think that would be a little cheap.  Being able to backstab from so far away while at no real risk of being hit by melee would be pretty powerful.

[Ulyn]

Melee, or for that matter dagger restrictions on backstab are pretty routine. You get an automatic crit from flanked stealthed ranged fire within effective range, which is already pretty sweet.

[Ashkeldir]

Pimpmyvanagon wrote...

Matthew Young CT wrote...

Pimpmyvanagon wrote...
Cannot be used to backstab (and so do not function with most of the Rogue talents)

WAD.

Was this actually stated to be the case somewhere, or are you just assuming? I'd be interested in seeing the rationalization for making one of the two Rogue weapons trees incompatible with more than half the class talents, and entirely useless with two of the four class specializations.

Just a guess, but I think the rationalization comes from the fact that archers get better armor penetration because they aim their arrows at chinks in the armor to begin with; whereas rogue backstab damage is intended to find chinks in the armor because you are more able to attack a foe in a vulnerable spot against one who isn't able to defend against your attack. For this reason, rogues who use daggers can proc deadly strike because they are more focused (during a frontal attack) on finding a ****** in the armor, whereas an archer uses aim for a better chance at armor penetration. 

Besides, the player can get so many talents that it is about customization - if you're going to spec as an archer, chances are you aren't going to spend your time running to the back end of the battlefield to get a little more backstab damage - you're going to be attacking from the front - at a distance, yes?  If you're a rogue who specializes in stealthy attacks, and precision strikes, you're going to learn how to get behind your opponent and use their lack of awareness against them.  Again, I'm just guessing, but that's how I see it. 

[Taleroth]

Pimpmyvanagon wrote...

Matthew Young CT wrote...

Pimpmyvanagon wrote...
Cannot be used to backstab (and so do not function with most of the Rogue talents)

WAD.

Was this actually stated to be the case somewhere, or are you just assuming? I'd be interested in seeing the rationalization for making one of the two Rogue weapons trees incompatible with more than half the class talents, and entirely useless with two of the four class specializations.

More than half the class talents?  Combat Movement and Coup de Grace are the only ones that don't work.  That's 2 out of 8, if you don't count deft hands and stealth.  Maybe Deadly Strike doesn't work, too, but that's unrelated to backstabs.  That's still only 3 out of 8.  LESS than half.

Surely backstabbing must then be critical to every bit of 2 specializations.
Ranger?  Nope.
Bard?  Nope.
Assassin?  3 out of 4, I guess that's mostly useless.
Duelist?  Doesn't care about backstabs at all.  It's half useless to ranged, but it's irrelevant to backstabs.

Modifié par Taleroth, 08 décembre 2009 - 12:17 .

[Pimpmyvanagon]

Taleroth wrote...
More than half the class talents?  Combat Movement and Coup de Grace are the only ones that don't work.  That's 2 out of 8, if you don't count deft hands and stealth.  Maybe Deadly Strike doesn't work, too, but that's unrelated to backstabs.  That's still only 3 out of 8.  LESS than half.

Ah yes, one fewer than half. My mistake. Clearly by pointing this out you have proved that bows are indeed just as functional on a Rogue as dual weapons.

Taleroth wrote...Surely backstabbing must then be critical to every bit of 2 specializations.
Ranger?  Nope.
Bard?  Nope.
Assassin?  3 out of 4, I guess that's mostly useless.
Duelist?  Doesn't care about backstabs at all.  It's half useless to ranged, but it's irrelevant to backstabs.

And again, well played. Duelist does indeed not need backstabs. It's still 50% nonfunctional when using a bow, but that's just a minor side note.

Thank you for clearing this up!

[Taleroth]

I wasn't arguing that it's just as functional, but your argument wasn't that it's simply less functional either. Your entire argument was that bows are less functional by and I quote "more than half" and that somehow whether or not you can get backstabs with it is related to that fact with regards to talents.



If your point is simply that it's less functional, don't lie about the facts.

[r0gue9]

Dark83 wrote...

Bows never needed "fixing", as it was never bugged to begin with. They were just experimenting with rebalancing bows with the hotfix.

Never needed fixing?  Is that why they increased the accuracy, dmg, crit rate, and attribute scaling on all ranged weapons in the hotfix?  Sounds like a lot more than simple "rebalancing" to me.  Also, crossbows were broken.  They were supposed to scale from dexterity, but they were not.  This was causing their damage to be pitifully low.  The hotfix fixes that, but I see no mention of it at all in the 1.02 patch notes.

According to The Missing Manual's Dexterity Hotfix site (http://dragonage.gul...rity_hotfix_101):

Experimental hot fix for the following issues:Daggers now get the shared damage bonus from Dexterity and Strength as intended, not just Strength alone.[/list]Ranged Weapon hit rate increased.Bow range has been increased by 10m on all ranged weapons (not staff), reducing the penalties for ranged shots in most most combat scenarios.All bows and crossbows now grant a +5 inherit Attack bonus. Note that this bonus is shown on the weapon, it does not factor into the characters Attack displayed score on the character sheet.[/list][/list]Short bow being useless.Short bows now get full attribute bonus from Dexterity instead of shared from Strength. This makes them a natural choice for Dexterity focused character builds.Base Armor Penetration for Shortbows has been increased by 1.[/list][/list]Ranged weapon damage has been increased:Damage range on all ranged weapons has been increase from 150% to 160%.Critical chance bonus on all ranged weapons has been increased by 4%.Damage bonus from attributes has been increased from 100% to 100/105% for bows and 110% for crossbows.

Modifié par r0gue9, 08 décembre 2009 - 01:17 .

[Steeltrap67]

As I posted in another thread, the thing that surprises me is that nobody questions the ability to fire missile weapons into melee without any risk of hitting your allies.



THAT is seriously ridiculous.

[metatrans]

the hotfix changes to bows were not apparently added in with 1.02.

i'm going to speculate that this is because the stat contributions for bows are not bugged. they work Str/Dex as originally designed.

the issue over re-balancing is separate from whether or not they were working as designed. obviously no decision has been made regarding bow balance.

Georg's hotfix was just a test run basically of a more powerful version of bows. only in terms of the scalar numbers though. slightly higher hit rate and damage per shot. there was never any attempt made to address the fundamental differences between ranged and melee combat. yes, its true, melee is a bit more full fleshed out in this game. so what? bow's work. use them if you like them and/or find them useful.

rebalancing ought not to be done lightly. i'm glad they didn't implement exactly what was done in Georg's hotfix. who's to say if those number tweaks are the right ones? needs more testing internally. they did the right thing not rushing out a bow rebalancing.

Modifié par metatrans, 08 décembre 2009 - 01:49 .

[Bull000]

omg, are bows fixed or not?

[Soeverein]

I very much prefer the 1.02 version of bows over the hotfix version of bows.

[vo1canic]

Has anyone notice that precise strike is bugged for bow?



It doesn't increase the critical strike chance of range weapon, which is suppose to be a huge advantage of creating a warrior archer over rouge archer.

[Loc'n'lol]

rogue archers are supposed to get a critical chance bonus from lethality (the description of the talent does not specify melee wepaons) and don't.



Overall, ranged wepaons have very little synergy with core warrior or rogue talents... :/

[Varenus Luckmann]

Bull000 wrote...
omg, are bows fixed or not?

No.

Seriously disappointed with the patch overall. There's mods that do a better job of fixing issues, but they're just workarounds to present problems, not actual solutions.

[Hulk Hsieh]

I'm glad the hotfix bow doesn't make it way into patch.

Shortbow with 100% Dex bonus is an extreme bad design decision.

[sinosleep]

Hulk Hsieh wrote...

I'm glad the hotfix bow doesn't make it way into patch.
Shortbow with 100% Dex bonus is an extreme bad design decision.

Why is that? Every magic bow worth a damn in the game is, you guessed it, a LONGBOW. So shortbows would be primarily used as either a.) operners or b.) against high damage output targets that rogues can't get close to. It also makes sense logically, while longbows could easily be the size of a full grown man, a shortbow is FAR easier to wield in regards to strength required to pull taut, so using 100% dex bonus instead of 50/50 makes complete sense. Otherwise, what on earth is their purpose? I mean seriously? Why would you EVER use a short bow in this game when there are no magic ones of any note and anything a shortbow can do a longbow can do better? 

Shortbows are a lot like maces come to think of it, utterly friggen useless. Axes and longswords ****** all over maces, why they bothered putting them in the game at all if they weren't going to be valid choices to use is beyond me. This is one of the areas where a a Diablo style random loot system would have worked much better. In Diablo while axes may have been rare, there was always the chances you could get a ludicrously powerful axe based on he random loot generator. If you wanted one all you had to do was go into the trade channel and trade someone an equivelant sword.

[Hulk Hsieh]

"Everyone use a certain long bow" is better than "Dex becoming everything Archer needs and makes Archer too powerful" IMO.

[TSAdmiral]

George Zeller's hotfix clearly acknowledged issues with ranged weapons damage, so with the current patch altering only daggers, is this a delay, an oversight, or simply a decision that the current system is more preferable? I've seen no other people bring this issue up aside from this topic, despite the uproar over dexterity. What we got in this latest patch is a dagger fix, but not a comprehensive dexterity fix. I simply want to know what designer intension is with this issue. I'm not necessarily whining over the state of the game as is, but instead wondering if it is supposed to be the way it is.

Modifié par TSAdmiral, 08 décembre 2009 - 05:52 .

[sinosleep]

Except it doesn't, because all the good bows ARE longbows, so eventually you'd be switching to one. That was my point. All making shortbows 100% dex based would do is make them useful until getting a decent longbow. As it stands now, they are never useful, because a crap longbow is still better than a crap shortbow in every possible situation.

And yeah, I speak from experience being as I did just that using the dex hotfix with Leliana. She used a shortbow, right up until the point where I got a +5% crit longbow (not to mention other good bonuses) that made the shortbow useless.

Modifié par sinosleep, 08 décembre 2009 - 05:49 .