176 réponses à ce sujet

[Duck and Cover]

I'm thinking maybe Loghain wasn't as bad as I first thought. 3rd run thru and I'm paying more attention to any dialogue I might have missed (or dialogue that is more relevant if you know the ending). In Ostagar it seems the King's forces aren't sufficient for the battle. Although the King does give him the option of waiting for the Orleisans which Loghain refuses.

Even though the King supports the Grey Wardens is he really in the right here? Is the battle of Ostagar really a wise battle plan given the state of their forces etc.?

So if the king charges headfirst into a sure losing battle, wouldn't the best thing to do is retreat and build up more forces? I know the game portrays him as the bad guy. He is paranoid about the Orleisans for sure. But maybe he isn't as bad as we initially thought. Yes he backstabbed the King to get power, but is this any worse than the Dwarven politics?

It is strange recruiting this guy. I didn't use him as his talents are all messed up (who needs half a tank that late in the game?- it'd be nice if his talent trees were filled out). How could the Wardens trust him? He could backstab them again and try to regain power.

your thoughts on this guy?

[Chartis]

No

[Taleroth]

It was Loghain's battle plan!

[The Capital Gaultier]

 No. There is no justification for what Loghain did aside from the double delusion of:

• Orlesians ready to invade Ferelden.
• Darkspawn threat is not a Blight.

[Viglin]

Way to many variables and personal opinions on this topic.

[KnightofPhoenix]

His logic and reason were sound. His actions were not. Loghain should stick to the military and leave the issue of leadership to someone else (like my PC).

[thegreateski]

Nope, he's crazy.

[Dark83]

The battle plan was Loghains. The king charged because Loghain told him to. The king and Grey Wardens died because Loghain set them up to.

[Jormungand3r]

When you talk to Loghain about the Orlesian occupation i think it makes his actions easier to understand. He made such a good case i felt he could still be of use against the archdemon I made him take the grey warden test and got rid of whiny bastard alistair who took off in my juggernaut armor ?! Then i convinced him to father morrigan's child...he was unsure at first but morrigan saucy wench that she is alleviated those uncertainties

[Varenus Luckmann]

Nope. Crazy man.

[KnightofPhoenix]

No Loghain always told Cailan not to act like an idiot, but Cailan was the one who wanted both himself and the grey Wardens at the frontline. Loghain just took advantage of Cailan's stupidity.

[Viglin]

Dark83 wrote...

The battle plan was Loghains. The king charged because Loghain told him to. The king and Grey Wardens died because Loghain set them up to.

Actually Loghain mentions to him a few times NOT to be in the front line and that they cant just rely on "Legends".
Duncan indicates the Kings unwillingness to wait for forces from Redcliff.
The King himself shows that hes more in for the "glory of old" then tactics and stragetiess and underestimates the Darkspawn.
Soldiers in the camp worry about the battle...even the Kings guard, and mentions both have been arguing for days.

Its too easy to blame it on one person.

I question Loghains methods on a few things...but l can see why he had doubts on the battle itself.

When we get to return to the fort, lm hoping a few things will be made clear[didnt it get mentioned somewhere that the Kings real politcal agenda will be revealed?]

[The Capital Gaultier]

Viglin wrote...

Dark83 wrote...

The battle plan was Loghains. The king charged because Loghain told him to. The king and Grey Wardens died because Loghain set them up to.

Actually Loghain mentions to him a few times NOT to be in the front line and that they cant just rely on "Legends".
Duncan indicates the Kings unwillingness to wait for forces from Redcliff.
The King himself shows that hes more in for the "glory of old" then tactics and stragetiess and underestimates the Darkspawn.
Soldiers in the camp worry about the battle...even the Kings guard, and mentions both have been arguing for days.

Its too easy to blame it on one person.

I question Loghains methods on a few things...but l can see why he had doubts on the battle itself.

When we get to return to the fort, lm hoping a few things will be made clear[didnt it get mentioned somewhere that the Kings real politcal agenda will be revealed?]

All those points against Cailan are countered by the simple fact that Loghain refuses when Cailan suggests they should wait for Orlesian reinforcements to arrive.  Cailan is brash, but he isn't dumb.

[sheogorath66]

The arl of Redcliff was all but dead before the battle of Ostagar

[Nyaore]

You know given Ostagar's reputed strategical importance as a defensive position I honestly wouldn't have been surprised if the King's forces could have actually defeated that particular batch of Darkspawn, out numbered or not, had Loghain not given into his paranoia. Actually, if they conserved their supplies properly after defeating that particular wave, one could argue that they might have been able to hold off a good portion of the Horde until they were finally outflanked weeks later. (The Deep Roads go everywhere, so it's not hard to imagine that the Darkspawn would eventually try and find another route to the surface.)
For a reputed military genius Loghain sure was making some pretty stupid decisions during the game time line.

Modifié par Nyaore, 07 décembre 2009 - 11:19 .

[bjdbwea]

I do think BioWare wanted players to think about this question. But I think the idea was much better implemented in Revan's character in KotoR. What a shame we'll never learn the answer in that case... In Loghain's case we do know it: No, because his assumptions were wrong in the first place.

[phordicus]

absolutely not. treason and regicide are unforgivable. if he thought the plan was suicidal and foolish, he could have simply resigned his commission or rank or whatever his official position was and let the king assign someone else as general. what he did was stupid, arrogant, and cowardly. this is what happens when you let commoners ascend to positions of power (see anora).

[ReubenLiew]

Regicide is unforgivable?

I guess you are not a rennaisence man, then?

Viva la Revolution!

[Nyaore]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Regicide is unforgivable?
I guess you are not a rennaisence man, then?
Viva la Revolution!

It depends upon the regent/king in power.
From what I saw in the game, Cailan might not have been the brightest crayon in the box but he was no means a tyrant. He didn't deserve the fate Loghain handed to him. And for what? Simply asking the Orlesian's for help? If Loghain was so against that idea in the first place couldn't he have just convinced Anora to veto it? From the look of things she had complete control over the throne during Cailan's rule and could have probably convinced the man to abandon his ideas about patching things up with Orlais.

Modifié par Nyaore, 07 décembre 2009 - 11:34 .

[ReubenLiew]

How dare ye! All kings in power are obselete! Off with their heads!



No, seriously, regicide is the best thing since sliced cake. Ask modern politics!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Nyaore wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

Regicide is unforgivable?
I guess you are not a rennaisence man, then?
Viva la Revolution!

It depends upon the regent/king in power.
From what I saw in the game, Cailan might not have been the brightest crayon in the box but he was no means a tyrant. He didn't deserve the fate Loghain handed to him.

A smart Tyrant is always better than a weak childish king.
I would rather have Bhelen rule over me instead of Cailan.

[phordicus]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Regicide is unforgivable?
I guess you are not a rennaisence man, then?
Viva la Revolution!

bleh.  democracy is a sham.  keep the peasants in the fields.

[ReubenLiew]

I don't remember voting you to be king!

I'm being oppressed!

[Nyaore]

ReubenLiew wrote...

How dare ye! All kings in power are obselete! Off with their heads!

No, seriously, regicide is the best thing since sliced cake. Ask modern politics!

Can't argue with that logic. Though I will admit that the thought of seeing some pesky little king getting his head physically removed from his neck is rather appealing.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
A smart Tyrant is always better than a weak childish king.
I would rather have Bhelen rule over me instead of Cailan.

I don't disagree. All I'm saying is that Cailan didn't deserve to be killed is all.

Modifié par Nyaore, 07 décembre 2009 - 11:40 .

[Mnemnosyne]

As far as the battle itself goes, it was winnable.  Everyone there was confident that they could defeat the darkspawn with the battle plan given, from Duncan to the various random Officers you can speak to, who will mention that Ostagar is an excellent defensive position and that even if outnumbered, we should see a decisive victory.  So militarily speaking, Loghain did not pull out for any tactical or strategic reason, his plan was to let the Grey Wardens fall.

On the other hand, Loghain wasn't worried about the darkspawn.  He didn't have all the necessary information available to him.  True, he was too paranoid about the Orlesians to have accepted the information even if he had it, but he didn't even have the information to consider in his decision.  The Grey Wardens keep too much of it secret.  He didn't know that Grey Wardens can sense darkspawn with certainty, and know for an absolute fact that this is a Blight - as Alistair said, although Duncan said he sensed the Archdemon's presence, everyone assumed he was guessing and he did not take pains to explain that he was not guessing.  Duncan makes it sound like he strongly believes this is a Blight, but there is the possiblity that he is wrong, instead of explaining why he is definitely right and this definitely is a Blight.  Loghain didn't know that Grey Wardens are the only ones who can kill an Archdemon, thus ending the Blight.  And he was worried that the Grey Wardens as a whole, who were expecting backup from Orlais and bringing a significant force of Orlesian Chevaliers, were merely a front in order to get a significant force of Orlesians into Ferelden without bloodshed.

We have no way of ever knowing whether Loghain was right on this point: he believed that once here, the Orlesian forces would once again attempt to take over Ferelden.  They never made it into Ferelden, so we will never know if they would have or not.  It is entirely possible that was the intention of the Empress of Orlais, even if it was not the intention of the Grey Wardens.  After all, if I remember correctly, something like twenty legions of Orlesian Chevaliers were coming along with the two hundred or so Grey Wardens of Orlais.  It is quite possible that Loghain did, in fact, despite everything he did, save Ferelden from another Orlesian occupation with his actions.  Or at least an attempt at an occupation.

If the Grey Wardens had been wise enough to take the political situation into account and call for reinforcements from the Free Marches instead of Orlais, Loghain would have had much less to fear, and would likely never have taken any of his rash actions, all of which were, as he himself states, to secure Ferelden's independence.