176 réponses à ce sujet

[Wolfva2]

Loghain was wrong because he broke his oath to his King, and to his people. He was wrong because he allowed many worthy warriors to die while HE ran back to the kingdom to make a power play for the throne. He was wrong because he thought that only HE could save the country from the Orlesian menace and thus was justified in murdering the King, many troops, and a high ranking Grey Warden, not to mention the villages that the Darkspawn put to the torch. Loghain felt he was doing what was right, but only because his overwhelming arrogance refused to let him see that the world did NOT revolve around him.



When I confronted him, I couldn't help but think of the villages that were overrun by Darkspawn...and the tales of women, some still children, dragged off by the Darkspawn. To become broodmothers. My only regret was we couldn't bloodeagle the bastard. He did what he did because he wanted POWER.

[Alastrian]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

I can see things from Loghain's perspective.

Just because one believe Loghain to be an evil tyrant doesn't mean they don't understand his perspective. I simply see him as being paranoid when it comes to the Orlesians. He's a relic of an era long gone.

I don't think anyone apart from the Grey Wardens knew it was a Blight or took it seriously. Or even thought that the whole army should be sent to Ostager.

Then everyone defies the conventional wisdom about Grey Wardens. Even if one doesn't take the darkspawn threat seriously, I'd rather trust the Grey Wardens with defeating darkspawn... that's what they do... it is what they've always done.

It must be worrying to allow thousands of Orlesian troops to march through Ferelden. The war of independence was destructive and not easy to win. Why risk your nation's freedom for what seemed like a trivial darkspawn problem in the Korcari wilds.

A vast horde of darkspawn, Blight or not is hardly a trivial matter. Just ask the dwarves what its like living day to day underground when there's no Blight and most of the Darkspawn are lurking in the Deep Roads.

As for the Orlesians... I have to wonder how many Orlesian nobles found themselves questioning just why their Chevaliers were in Fereldan when they were getting beaten by a bunch of upstart rebels led by the son of a dirt farmer.

I doubt the Fereldans are the only side in this war who harbour bitter memories of those times. Do you really think the Orlesians would want to risk being humiliated again by the next son of a dirt farmer to lead a ragtag band of rebels to victory against them?

[AntiChri5]

Its quite likely the Orlesians were intending to conquer Ferelden. History is full of examples of how a specific nations would constantly war over territory they felt was theirs, with the disputed land often changing hands for centuries, but the other country still feeling entitled enough to go to war. Ferelden Was part of Orlais for two hundred years and has had only thirty years of independance. The Orlesian Empress was born with Ferelden a part of her territory and she lost it. Historically, rulers always take that personally

[Kanner]

No.

[Alastrian]

Koyasha wrote...

These are the major arguments I buy for Loghain being planning to take over all along, and they're pretty strong, but they can be explained otherwise.  Both Arl Eamon and Bryce Cousland are said to have become relatively friendly with the Orlesians in the years after the war, Eamon having married an Orlesian woman especially.  I do not see it as particularly unlikely that Howe managed to convince Loghain that they were "in on it" and intending to betray Ferelden to the Orlesians, thus making it necessary for Loghain to eliminate the other two people who Cailan may take advice from (or who may simply directly revolt, their imagined plan to get Orlesian forces into the country having failed).  If Cailan had lived and no one at Highever had survived the massacre, Howe would have, as Duncan said, told Cailan any story he wished, and Cailan would have bought it without any evidence or testimony to the contrary.

And if Loghain were truly this honourable hero... why would he even associate with Arl Howe? In one noble's words, 'that man makes serpents seem personable'. I can't see anyone being genuinely loyal to Howe... only following him out of fear. I mean the guy fills the ranks of his army with murderous criminals and thugs. How can anyone with any intelligence not see how untrustworthy this man was? If you wanted to play to Loghain's own paranoid... he should have recognized that Howe would have likely betrayed him to the Orlesians if there was personal benefit to it.

As far as Loghain convincing Cailan to deny the Orlesians entry if the Grey Wardens were still around, it may have been possible, but it's also made pretty clear that ever since this whole thing started, Cailan has been listening to the Wardens almost entirely.  Loghain believes the Wardens are essentially an Orlesian front to get significant numbers of troops into Ferelden, and he knows that Duncan will continue to press Cailan to allow the reinforcements to come regardless of the situation on the ground, and he has good reason to believe that Cailan will allow himself to be swayed by the arguments of the legendary Wardens.  The only reasonable way to convince Cailan not to let the Orlesians in is if the Grey Wardens are no longer around to counter his arguments.

And thus lose the strongest ally against the Darkspawn... and cause an international incident. Don't forget that the Grey Wardens are in every kingdom... I could imagine the ones in the Anderfels, Free Marches, Antiva and Nevarra working to convince their respective nations' leaders to invade Fereldan if they feel its the only way to stop the Blight. In his paranoia against a possible second invasion from Orlais, Loghain would be inviting other nations to invade... and imagine how much more difficult than just the Orlesians a combined force of Anders, Nevarrans, and Antivans would be to beat back.

Its not entirely unreasonable for the Grey Wardens to work towards that... as Daveth says... they do what they must and sacrifice what they must if it means stopping the Blight.

I think it's clear Loghain made some questionable and bad decisions even if all the information he had was actually correct at the time.  Even if everything he believed had been true, some of his decisions would still have been poor ones or suboptimal, but they would likely have been better than the alternative.

I find it amazing that people forget that unlike the darkspawn, Orlesians are actually human. They can at least be bargained and reasoned with. Living under Orlesian oppression with the chance of rebelling later on would certainly be preferable to having the whole kingdom overrun with darkspawn who kill all in their path.

I think one of the most interesting factors to this is that we do not and never really will know whether the Orlesian forces actually planned on invading Ferelden or not.  We really get absolutely no hint on this whatsoever.  The Grey Wardens don't seem to believe they would have, and neither does Cailan, but that's not conclusive at all.  The Grey Wardens would have let Ferelden be conquered if it meant stopping the Blight, that much we can be pretty sure of.  And Cailan is made out to be a good but not particularly wise or politically savvy King, so his confidence that the arguments with Orlais are over is hard to take as a certainty.  It's entirely possible that despite the death and destruction it caused, Loghain's actions actually did prevent the Orlesians from launching a full invasion of Ferelden, and we will never know the truth.

I'd think if anything Loghain's actions would have made a second Orlesian invasion easier. Like I said... acting openly against the Grey Wardens would have caused an international incident. The empress of Orlais would be even more justified invading Fereldan if she could say 'they murdered the Grey Wardens and allowed the Blight to spread'. It might be possible that she would find allies in other nations in this given that they too have Grey Wardens, and they too have a vested interest in preventing a Blight from spreading.

But since there was no Orlesian invasion after Loghain declared himself regent... I have to conclude that the Orlesians weren't planning on invading and would only do it as an absolute last resort if the remaining Grey Wardens within Fereldan couldn't improve the political situation.

[Alastrian]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Its quite likely the Orlesians were intending to conquer Ferelden. History is full of examples of how a specific nations would constantly war over territory they felt was theirs, with the disputed land often changing hands for centuries, but the other country still feeling entitled enough to go to war. Ferelden Was part of Orlais for two hundred years and has had only thirty years of independance. The Orlesian Empress was born with Ferelden a part of her territory and she lost it. Historically, rulers always take that personally

Then why didn't Orlais invade as soon as Loghain declared himself regent? Loghain's actions weakened Fereldan enough, and the empress would be entirely justified in invading as a means of 'helping to stop the Blight'.

But as it is... the only Orlesian characters you meet are Leliana, Marjolaine, Riordan, some insignificant woman in the Denerim market and Anora's maid.

Modifié par Alastrian, 08 décembre 2009 - 04:03 .

[Statulos]

Even worse, Orlesians can take the poisoning of Howe or the attack on the Cousland family (both acused of being sympathisers to Orlesians) as a casus belli to assault Ferelden. An no, the excuse of "information travels slow" does not count since Orlais has one of the best networks of spies in Thedas.

[Inakhia]

During the end sequence just before the big battle, you have the chance to ask someone about reinforcements, Riordan I think. He essentially says they've sent word to the Orlesians already and may have reinforcements arriving in a week. However his opinion at that point is that the Empress? of Orlais has given Ferelden up and is now guarding the border against the 'eventual' Blight swarm she believes is probably coming.



Loghain was wrong, Wrong and Damned wrong.

1. He allowed his paranoia to utterly corrupt his thinking. To the point his only? major source of information seems to have been a man who's morals were well known to be completely non-existant.

2. He ignored and underestimated his own daughters capability to control her husband and rule the land.

3. He ignored the 'professionals' word about their own job, the Grey Wardens. Instead decided to simply pass them off as Orlesian henchmen and *massed* army of Darkspawn as simple problem he could come back later and deal with.

4. He set and arranged for the death of his son-in-law and King as well as any advisors to the King with whose "opinions" he disagreed with.

5. He massively under estimated the power and unruliness of the Bannorn, as well as the popularity of the figures he killed off, or tried too. He's a military man trying to apply purely military decisions to ruling a population and government with the resultant disasterous results.

6. He failed a basic military tenant in order to satisfy his own paranoia. He left a massed and successfully blooded enemy army at his back and sacrificed a significant portion of the lands standing army in order to do this. A sucessful battle at Ostegar would have delivered a bit hig to the Darkspawn, enough to take at least several months breathing space while they regrouped. Instead he just gives up and pulls back with the result Lothering is overun in a matter of months, or possibly less. Again also not something to endear him to the general populace.

It would not have been too hard to see to Cailens and the Grey Wardens deaths in the heat of a battle, Without sacrificing the entire outcome to the enemy. However his paranoia wouldn't allow him the *time* to give to winning a battle and the subsequent mop up needed.

7. If there's no hint that the Orlesians weren't planning an attack, then there sure as hell isn't any information that they Were! Point of fact their forces are stopped easily at the border. Even when they know there is inner turmoil to take advantage off.



Loghains true of the altruism that Good Generals make Lousy political leaders. He doesn't have the mentality for leading non army units and he expects everyone to simply accede to his wishes because he's the head honcho. He isn't the best thing for Ferelden, even if the Orlesians *where* invading his governance would most likely result in a *more* fractured and divided land, than a united one. If the mere Threat of a Blight, let alone a real Blight, more dangerous than an invading Orlesian army didn't initially unite the Bannorn and Teryns, why the Hell would the threat of an actual invading Orlesian army unite them?

He should have *never* aspired to be more than the leader of Fereldens armies. Wrong person, in the wrong place doing the Really wrong thing.

[AntiChri5]

Alastrian wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Its quite likely the Orlesians were intending to conquer Ferelden. History is full of examples of how a specific nations would constantly war over territory they felt was theirs, with the disputed land often changing hands for centuries, but the other country still feeling entitled enough to go to war. Ferelden Was part of Orlais for two hundred years and has had only thirty years of independance. The Orlesian Empress was born with Ferelden a part of her territory and she lost it. Historically, rulers always take that personally

Then why didn't Orlais invade as soon as Loghain declared himself regent? Loghain's actions weakened Fereldan enough, and the empress would be entirely justified in invading as a means of 'helping to stop the Blight'.

But as it is... the only Orlesian characters you meet are Leliana, Marjolaine, Riordan, some insignificant woman in the Denerim market and Anora's maid.

Would you fight over a prize thats on fire? All she has to do is wait fot the darkspawn to decimate Fereldens armies then send in the Chevaliers and even be seen as a liberating hero rather than an old enemy returned.

Im not saying that this IS what was going on, just not to rule it out.

[Alastrian]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Would you fight over a prize thats on fire? All she has to do is wait fot the darkspawn to decimate Fereldens armies then send in the Chevaliers and even be seen as a liberating hero rather than an old enemy returned.

Im not saying that this IS what was going on, just not to rule it out.

By the time Fereldan's army was decimated by the darkspawn, the Blight will have swallowed up the whole of Fereldan, and there would likely be nobody to 'liberate'. And there would certainly be nobody to rebuild... even as a reclaimed province of the Orlesian Empire. Though in that scenario a lot of Chevaliers would be rubbing their hands with glee at the thought of being made into Teyrns, Arls and Banns... or whatever is the Orlesian equivalent.

If it were the plan of the Orlesians to invade Fereldan... better that it be done while there is still a Fereldan to conquer instead of conquering a Blight infested dead zone.

Modifié par Alastrian, 08 décembre 2009 - 05:10 .

[SeanMurphy2]

I think they should have mentioned Orlais more.



There could be ordinary people who worry about an Orlesian invasion. Or talk about conditions during the occupation. Or visit significant battles sites in the war of independence.



It would seem like Loghain is not alone in his assumptions. And show his positive achievements.

[Statulos]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Alastrian wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Its quite likely the Orlesians were intending to conquer Ferelden. History is full of examples of how a specific nations would constantly war over territory they felt was theirs, with the disputed land often changing hands for centuries, but the other country still feeling entitled enough to go to war. Ferelden Was part of Orlais for two hundred years and has had only thirty years of independance. The Orlesian Empress was born with Ferelden a part of her territory and she lost it. Historically, rulers always take that personally

Then why didn't Orlais invade as soon as Loghain declared himself regent? Loghain's actions weakened Fereldan enough, and the empress would be entirely justified in invading as a means of 'helping to stop the Blight'.

But as it is... the only Orlesian characters you meet are Leliana, Marjolaine, Riordan, some insignificant woman in the Denerim market and Anora's maid.

Would you fight over a prize thats on fire? All she has to do is wait fot the darkspawn to decimate Fereldens armies then send in the Chevaliers and even be seen as a liberating hero rather than an old enemy returned.

Im not saying that this IS what was going on, just not to rule it out.

A good general does not only rely on the quality of his troops, but on the quality of his information. An Orlesian invasion basicaly needs logistcs; huge logistics in the case of medieval warfare. If Logain had information of toons of food packed in the border and ready to be sent to Ferelden, it would sound like an invassion.

Troops packing on the border without massive supplies mean "expeditionary force" which counts on local support for logistics. On the other hand, if the threat of invasion is real and you´re fighting in two fronts, it´s not a great idea to let your minion (Howe) get rid of the leadership of important assets (Arl Eamon and the Couslands) to defend yourself from that threat.

Logain was strategicaly stupid from minute one.

[Original182]

Absolutely no. He deliberately abandoned Cailan to die.

[DariusKalera]

Alastrian wrote...

DariusKalera wrote...

Here's something to consider though.  30 years have passed since the Orlesians were thrown out of Fereldan.  How many people in Fereldan still hold grudges against them besides Loghain?

It would depend on what percentage of the population of Fereldan are younger than thirty. Then again, I get the impression that Cauthrien is younger than thirty and she's Loghain's most loyal lapdog.

The king, Couslans, and Guerriens did not, but what of the rest of the nobles, the merchants, and the commoners?  How many of the latter would have stood around while Orlesian chevaliers, 16,000 to 20,000 stong (4 legions worth, the numbers given that were turned away), rode thru the country?  More than likely, most of the country still harbored bad feelings towards them.

In all likelihood, it would have caused another civil war.  If Cailan did not, or could not, understand this, then he was indeed a bad ruler.

I was under the impression that the Orlesian reinforcements were predominantly Grey Wardens... and with the exception of Sophia Dryden and her rebellion more than a century ago, Grey Wardens are for the most part apolitical and concerned only with keeping the darkspawn at bay and ending any Blight that comes about. Cailin clearly understood the Grey Wardens better than Loghain... hell he even trusted them with his own life.

Can't really say that they would have united behind the king till the Blight was over because, as we have seen, the Blight is a secondary concern in the country, while it was a primary concern for the PC.  If it had been a primary concern for the country, they Bannorn would have united behind Loghain until it was over. 

So you're saying that the Bannorn would be stupid enough to trust the effort to end the Blight to the man who escalated it?

BTW, for those that say Ostagar was winnable because it was in a defensive position, and or, it was a bottle neck, need to take a look at the fight again.  Cailan and his troops charged out from behind the defenses.  Simply put, if you are infront of your defenses fighting, they lose their effectiveness as defenses.  Besides, their defenses had already been breached and the tower taken.  On top of all this, a bottleneck only works if the enemy is not already behind you, which they were.  There were darkspawn in the tower and in the wilds north of Ostagar.

The cinematic might not have shown it... but if you look down from the bridge above the battle when you're on your way to the Tower of Ishal, much of the fighting is taking place within the bottleneck. And I doubt the darkspawn north of Ostagar were anything more than small bands of raiders... hardly a second horde.

And the corridors in the passage beneath the Tower of Ishal make another bottleneck... one that could have been held had Loghain wanted to deploy a sufficient rear guard in the tower.

It doesn't really matter how many people are younger than thirty.  Most of the country could be filled with 20-30 year old individuals.  What matters is how much the generation before them influenced them.  Did thier mom and dad or grandparents tell them stories about how Orlesians pillaged their lands?  Did they describe to them how badly the Fereldans were treated under Orlesian dominance?  Were there still examples that they could point out?  Finally, how much influence did the still hold over them and how much trust did they put in Loghain and would it be enough for them to follow him if he stood against the king?

Also, it is stated in the game that 4 legions from Orlais and their accompaning Grey Wardens were turned back.  Cailan most certainly did not understand the Grey Wardens.  He was in love with the myths and stories that he was told about them.  He knew that they were needed to end a Blight, that was it.  He just wanted to fight beside them and I have no doubt that the idea of leading a large number of Wardens in a battle appealed to him.

Well, the Bannorn had no idea what happened at Ostagar.  There were no surivors other than the PC and Alistair and they had not contacted Teagan yet to inform him of what happened.  Teagan originally stood against Loghain on a matter of principle, not fact.  Why?  He had no facts to go on.  As far as he, and the rest of the Bannorn knew, what Loghain described of happening at Ostagar could have actually happened.

All the cinematic shows when you look down is a bunch of firefly looking lights. The same lights are shown when you see the cutscene and the king is looking out towards the darkspawn horde.  So you can not really tell where the fighting is taking place.  It does not take another horde north of Ostagar to throw a wrench into things.  Just a few dozen hitting the rear of the Fereldan lines would have been enough to cause panic.

We also do not know what a "sufficient" rear guard would be.  Before the battle, all we know is that there were corridors found beneath the tower and that they were being explored.  For all we know, he and the king might have decided that the corridors were a non issue. 

[Alastrian]

DariusKalera wrote...

It doesn't really matter how many people are younger than thirty.  Most of the country could be filled with 20-30 year old individuals.  What matters is how much the generation before them influenced them.  Did thier mom and dad or grandparents tell them stories about how Orlesians pillaged their lands?  Did they describe to them how badly the Fereldans were treated under Orlesian dominance?  Were there still examples that they could point out?  Finally, how much influence did the still hold over them and how much trust did they put in Loghain and would it be enough for them to follow him if he stood against the king?

Also, it is stated in the game that 4 legions from Orlais and their accompaning Grey Wardens were turned back.  Cailan most certainly did not understand the Grey Wardens.  He was in love with the myths and stories that he was told about them.  He knew that they were needed to end a Blight, that was it.  He just wanted to fight beside them and I have no doubt that the idea of leading a large number of Wardens in a battle appealed to him.

Didn't understand the Grey Wardens? What about that line 'Enough of your conspiracy theories Loghain! The Grey Wardens battle the Blight no matter where they're from.'

Unless every Grey Warden in Thedas is secretly in allegiance to the Empress of Orlais, and not the apolitical organization it is, Cailin knows Grey Wardens better than Loghain... I mean Loghain doesn't even understand that Grey Wardens are essential to stopping a Blight. While only the Grey Wardens themselves know why... it would be common knowledge that they are since every one of the four blights so far, however long ago they were, were ended by a Grey Warden.

Well, the Bannorn had no idea what happened at Ostagar.  There were no surivors other than the PC and Alistair and they had not contacted Teagan yet to inform him of what happened.  Teagan originally stood against Loghain on a matter of principle, not fact.  Why?  He had no facts to go on.  As far as he, and the rest of the Bannorn knew, what Loghain described of happening at Ostagar could have actually happened.

Well what about the fact that Loghain is demanding obedience rather than requesting support? In Fereldan politics, authority is handed up from the Freeholders, and Loghain is trying to bully the Bannorn into obeying him. Even when word of the truth at Ostagar hasn't reached Bann Teagan yet, he's still got more than enough reason to defy Loghain on more than just principle.

How can you seriously expect the Bannorn to be bullied by the son of a dirt farmer and just take it lying down?

All the cinematic shows when you look down is a bunch of firefly looking lights. The same lights are shown when you see the cutscene and the king is looking out towards the darkspawn horde.  So you can not really tell where the fighting is taking place.  It does not take another horde north of Ostagar to throw a wrench into things.  Just a few dozen hitting the rear of the Fereldan lines would have been enough to cause panic.

Can't tell where the fighting is? Just look down from atop the bridge on your way to the tower! Plenty of fighting taking place within the bottleneck.

And if 'a few dozen' stragglers can cause enough panic to severely compromise the chances of victory, one would have to question just how well trained Fereldan's soldiers are. Its not like the army is full of peasants like the militia in Redcliffe.

All it would take to take down those few dozen is to turn to them, cut them down and then go back to the main battle.

We also do not know what a "sufficient" rear guard would be.  Before the battle, all we know is that there were corridors found beneath the tower and that they were being explored.  For all we know, he and the king might have decided that the corridors were a non issue. 

Then why not just have the mages seal those tunnels? If Loghain could keep the presence of a possible point of entry there a secret, surely the Chantry needn't have to know that there are mage spells being cast before battle. And it really shouldn't take many soldiers to hold a corridor or a stairway anyway. And if another possible point of entry is being dismissed as a non issue... then the strategy is questionable and beneath a supposed military genius like Loghain.

Modifié par Alastrian, 08 décembre 2009 - 05:42 .

[Airen84]

I've read through all of the posts, and I will state the opinion of No. There are several reasons for this, but the most prevalent one is how Loghain took advantage of the situation following the King's death. Immediately after pulling out of Ostagar, he spread a virulent lie that the Grey Wardens had betrayed the King and led him to his death. This would beg the assumptions that Grey Wardens would've had a reason to trump up a fake Blight, entice the King, then have the King charge into a horde of Darkspawn, all knowing that the King would be killed, and that Loghain's forces wouldn't be enough to overwhelm the Darkspawn in the battle.



This flies in the face of everything that people know about the Grey Wardens of legend, and even in Denerim itself you have people expressing their lack of acceptance of the "official" word of the Teryn's regime. You even have a task from the Chantry to go and fight Loghain's men who are trying to force the obedience of one of the Bannorn Nobles. All of this, along with many other plot points show that Loghain had absolutely no intention of letting the King live. Yes, he did make a half-assed attempt at convincing the King to stay with the main force of troops, but if he knew Cailan as well as he should, he would've known that the King would refuse.



It was Loghain's plan all along to let the King perish, and attempt to take over Ferelden for himself. The poisoning of Arl Eamon PRIOR to the fight at Ostagar, and the murder of Teryn Cousland by the ambitious (and supported by Loghain) Arl Howe shows that there was an amount of planning in the works towards trying to set up a stronger situation for Loghain's ascension to Regent. Loghain was wrong, whether his motives were based on paranoia of the Orlesians, or through just plain stupidity, it was wrong...and given the amount of preparing PRIOR to the Battle of Ostagar that happened, it appears to be a wrong that was pre-meditated.

[DariusKalera]

Either way you look at it, whether it is him trying to bully them for support or because he is the son of a farmer, it is still just the principle of it that ticks Teagan off.

Like I said, all you see is the lights. You do not actually "see" the fight going on beneath you. You can assume it is there, but what you are actually shown combat wise is Cailan and the army charging out of the bottleneck in the cut scene.

You make it sound simple. "Just turn to them and cut them down." Well, it is not that simple.

The attention of the entire army is focused forward. No one would be looking to the rear because it would be a given, to them at least, that it was secure. Once the darkspawn hit the rear of the army, they could very easily kill a number of Fereldans equal, or greater than, their own before they would be really noticed. Once they are noticed, the problem becomes trying to order soldiers to turn around. With the sound of battle everywhere and the fact that a lot of them seem to be wearing some type of helmet, getting them to hear an order would be difficult at best.

Chances are, some soldiers would hear the order, while others standing next to them did not. Those that heard the order would turn around, those that did not, would see their comrades turn around not knowing that the order was given. Even if the order is passed on by the soldiers themselves yelling "Enemy to the rear!" or some such, it is still enough to take some of the focus off of the front line, thereby weakening it.

As for the tunnels, well, they do not seem to to be that big of a secret. You can ask the guard why you can not enter the tower and he tells you about them. As for why were the not sealed, I am going under the assumption that the explorations conducted by the guards did not find anyway for someone to enter them from the outside and that the dark spawn only broke through to them at the beginning of the battle. Which would fit with the guard and the mage running out of there right after the battle began yelling that there were dark spawn in the tower.

Edit:  Like I said, he did not understand the Wardens.  Him simply stating that they fought the Darkspawn does not mean he understood them.  I can say planes fly, that does not mean I understand how or why they fly. 

Modifié par DariusKalera, 08 décembre 2009 - 06:22 .

[Lord Phoebus]

An assassin in Cailan's guard on the field at Ostagar would have been sufficient (or a slow acting poison before the battle). No need to sacrifice half the army when you only need to kill one man, and who's to say what really happened in the thick of battle? After that the battle is over, Loghain's strategy proves successful, his renown as a general increases and his daughter is the queen regent.

The problem was he didn't sacrifice one man, but half the army. You could make the argument that you took too long to light the beacon. Alistair notes it's been more than an hour and Cailan's forces might be too weak at that point to ensure that the pincer attack would be successful. Of course Loghain didn't have any intelligence that we know of about how the battle was going. It's not like he rode up to the front took a look (What's Bioware got against horses?) and then ordered the retreat. He just withdrew. That's just bad tactics. At the very least he's now got enemies on two fronts (Orlais and Darkspawn) and a question mark over his actions that's going to breed dissention in the ranks.

Modifié par Lord Phoebus, 08 décembre 2009 - 06:37 .

[Alastrian]

DariusKalera wrote...

Either way you look at it, whether it is him trying to bully them for support or because he is the son of a farmer, it is still just the principle of it that ticks Teagan off.

And acting on principle is bad how? I'd say that opposing Loghain's bullying is a sound principle when Loghain is sounding just like the Orlesian tyrants he despises.

Like I said, all you see is the lights. You do not actually "see" the fight going on beneath you. You can assume it is there, but what you are actually shown combat wise is Cailan and the army charging out of the bottleneck in the cut scene.

Beyond the bottleneck... yes, there's only lights. But you do see people fighting down in the bottleneck. I don't know if you've got your graphic settings too low or something... but I know I see people fighting darkspawn down there when I look over the edge.

You make it sound simple. "Just turn to them and cut them down." Well, it is not that simple.

The attention of the entire army is focused forward. No one would be looking to the rear because it would be a given, to them at least, that it was secure. Once the darkspawn hit the rear of the army, they could very easily kill a number of Fereldans equal, or greater than, their own before they would be really noticed. Once they are noticed, the problem becomes trying to order soldiers to turn around. With the sound of battle everywhere and the fact that a lot of them seem to be wearing some type of helmet, getting them to hear an order would be difficult at best.

Does it really take an order for soldiers to quickly spin around and face an enemy on the flank? Orders are all well and good for positioning an army before the battle, and commanding the archers to loose their arrows and houndmasters to loose the dogs on the approaching enemy. But once the melee starts... its every man to himself until one side routs or is annihilated.

Chances are, some soldiers would hear the order, while others standing next to them did not. Those that heard the order would turn around, those that did not, would see their comrades turn around not knowing that the order was given. Even if the order is passed on by the soldiers themselves yelling "Enemy to the rear!" or some such, it is still enough to take some of the focus off of the front line, thereby weakening it.

The first soldiers to be hit on the northern flank would not be the front line. The front line is on the southern end of the bottleneck. The front line would likely just keep fighting as they are... the rear lines and possibly reserves would be the ones having to fight any darkspawn that come down from the north.

As for the tunnels, well, they do not seem to to be that big of a secret. You can ask the guard why you can not enter the tower and he tells you about them. As for why were the not sealed, I am going under the assumption that the explorations conducted by the guards did not find anyway for someone to enter them from the outside and that the dark spawn only broke through to them at the beginning of the battle. Which would fit with the guard and the mage running out of there right after the battle began yelling that there were dark spawn in the tower.

Is the tower being overrun really that unpredictable? I knew it was going to be overrun from the moment I talked to the guard outside the tower. Regardless of whether or not a search turned up a possible entry point, surely its best not to take that chance.

Edit:  Like I said, he did not understand the Wardens.  Him simply stating that they fought the Darkspawn does not mean he understood them.  I can say planes fly, that does not mean I understand how or why they fly. 

Well like I said... every Grey Warden from Weisshaupt to Ostagar would have to be loyal to the Empress of Orlais for Loghain to know more about the Wardens than a young man who grew up on the tales of their victories in all four of the Blights. The way Loghain behaves, its like he's assuming the Grey Wardens are Orlesian agents... and that is a ridiculous conspiracy theory, and Cailin recognizes that well enough to call him out on it.

Modifié par Alastrian, 08 décembre 2009 - 06:50 .

[Aedan_Cousland]

No.

Loghain's plan was based entirely on his own paranoia and his own inability to adapt with the times. He was still fighting Orlais even though the war with the Orlesians had ended over thirty years prior. He was so consumed by the notion that Orlais was the archenemy of Ferelden that he could not see the Blight for what it was. Instead of seeing the Blight as the primary threat to his nation, he underestimated it and betrayed both the King and the Grey Wardens. As far as Loghain was concerned Orlais would only use the crisis (incorrectly regarded as a relatively minor one by Loghain) as a pretext for stationing troops in Ferelden on more permanent basis.

Loghain may have been right in not trusting Orlais, but he failed to recognize the Darkspawn as a much more serious threat to his nation.

Ironically Loghain's actions may have even increased the threat that Orlais posed to Ferelden. Even though Ferelden emerged victorious agains the Darkspawn, it most certainly would have been weaker and more vulnerable to foreign intervention because of Loghain. Besides the military losses suffered in the Blight or during the Civil War, many of the bannorns had been devasted, and Denerim had been sacked. The economy of the nation no doubt would be in shambles immediately following the war, which would further erode military prepardness. You'd also have some degree of political instability over the regime change which also would not do much in the way of guaranteeing Fereldens' continued independence. If Loghain does not betray the King and the Grey Wardens at Ostagar however, it is entirely possible that the Blight may have been defeated there, and the nation would have been spared a fight for the crown, a civil war, and further devastation from the Darkspawn.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 08 décembre 2009 - 07:00 .

[kevinwastaken]

I'm surprised so many buy into the "Loghain is just misunderstood" nonsense. The guy is a traitor, a murderer, and a brutal thug. He is the worst kind of despot: paranoid and ruthless. His actions led to the near ruin of Ferelden and if you're a human noble he was complicit in the slaughter of your family and the theft of your estate.



No apologies need be made for such an inhuman monster.

[Axterix]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

All those points against Cailan are countered by the simple fact that Loghain refuses when Cailan suggests they should wait for Orlesian reinforcements to arrive.  Cailan is brash, but he isn't dumb.

Actually, one of those points counters your counterpoint, that being that Cailan won't wait for the forces from Redcliffe. 

His suggestion of waiting for the Orlesian forces isn't because he himself wants to wait.  It is made because he knows how Loghain feels about Orlais, knows that he'll refuse it.  And so Cailan gets what he wants, battle now.  If he thought Loghain was likely to agree to that, he wouldn't have made the suggestion.

[Alastrian]

kevinwastaken wrote...

I'm surprised so many buy into the "Loghain is just misunderstood" nonsense. The guy is a traitor, a murderer, and a brutal thug. He is the worst kind of despot: paranoid and ruthless. His actions led to the near ruin of Ferelden and if you're a human noble he was complicit in the slaughter of your family and the theft of your estate.

No apologies need be made for such an inhuman monster.

Might have something to do with how he is portrayed in the book... my copy is still in the mail so it'll be a while before I know for certain, but the impression I got just playing the game through once is that he is a tyrant, a monster, a paranoid headcase, and everyone who loyally followed him was at the least irredemably stupid and at the most borderline psychotic.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nyaore wrote...

You know given Ostagar's reputed strategical importance as a defensive position I honestly wouldn't have been surprised if the King's forces could have actually defeated that particular batch of Darkspawn, out numbered or not, had Loghain not given into his paranoia.

You can find an officer in the camp.Talk to him and he will say just that. That Ostagar is a highly defensible position and that "we should expect a decisive victory even if outnumbered."