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[Lotion Soronarr]

1. Darkspawn attack from the rear? Where? I've seen nothing to even hint at that.



2. Loghain is a paranoid SOB. No sane person could ever trust him to watch his back. He's a liability, not an asset.



3. The Orlesian forces were reinforcements. Does anyone really belive that they would be sufficient to conquer Ferelden? Does anyone even really belive a relief force from one country is bigger than the kings army?

[DariusKalera]

Alastrian wrote...

DariusKalera wrote...

Either way you look at it, whether it is him trying to bully them for support or because he is the son of a farmer, it is still just the principle of it that ticks Teagan off.

And acting on principle is bad how? I'd say that opposing Loghain's bullying is a sound principle when Loghain is sounding just like the Orlesian tyrants he despises.

Like I said, all you see is the lights. You do not actually "see" the fight going on beneath you. You can assume it is there, but what you are actually shown combat wise is Cailan and the army charging out of the bottleneck in the cut scene.

Beyond the bottleneck... yes, there's only lights. But you do see people fighting down in the bottleneck. I don't know if you've got your graphic settings too low or something... but I know I see people fighting darkspawn down there when I look over the edge.

You make it sound simple. "Just turn to them and cut them down." Well, it is not that simple.

The attention of the entire army is focused forward. No one would be looking to the rear because it would be a given, to them at least, that it was secure. Once the darkspawn hit the rear of the army, they could very easily kill a number of Fereldans equal, or greater than, their own before they would be really noticed. Once they are noticed, the problem becomes trying to order soldiers to turn around. With the sound of battle everywhere and the fact that a lot of them seem to be wearing some type of helmet, getting them to hear an order would be difficult at best.

Does it really take an order for soldiers to quickly spin around and face an enemy on the flank? Orders are all well and good for positioning an army before the battle, and commanding the archers to loose their arrows and houndmasters to loose the dogs on the approaching enemy. But once the melee starts... its every man to himself until one side routs or is annihilated.

Chances are, some soldiers would hear the order, while others standing next to them did not. Those that heard the order would turn around, those that did not, would see their comrades turn around not knowing that the order was given. Even if the order is passed on by the soldiers themselves yelling "Enemy to the rear!" or some such, it is still enough to take some of the focus off of the front line, thereby weakening it.

The first soldiers to be hit on the northern flank would not be the front line. The front line is on the southern end of the bottleneck. The front line would likely just keep fighting as they are... the rear lines and possibly reserves would be the ones having to fight any darkspawn that come down from the north.

As for the tunnels, well, they do not seem to to be that big of a secret. You can ask the guard why you can not enter the tower and he tells you about them. As for why were the not sealed, I am going under the assumption that the explorations conducted by the guards did not find anyway for someone to enter them from the outside and that the dark spawn only broke through to them at the beginning of the battle. Which would fit with the guard and the mage running out of there right after the battle began yelling that there were dark spawn in the tower.

Is the tower being overrun really that unpredictable? I knew it was going to be overrun from the moment I talked to the guard outside the tower. Regardless of whether or not a search turned up a possible entry point, surely its best not to take that chance.

Edit:  Like I said, he did not understand the Wardens.  Him simply stating that they fought the Darkspawn does not mean he understood them.  I can say planes fly, that does not mean I understand how or why they fly. 

Well like I said... every Grey Warden from Weisshaupt to Ostagar would have to be loyal to the Empress of Orlais for Loghain to know more about the Wardens than a young man who grew up on the tales of their victories in all four of the Blights. The way Loghain behaves, its like he's assuming the Grey Wardens are Orlesian agents... and that is a ridiculous conspiracy theory, and Cailin recognizes that well enough to call him out on it.

So it is ok for Teagan to endanger the country for principles but it is not ok for Loghain?  That is what it is basically boiling down to.  Up until the PC actually tells him that the Blight is real, he seems to be operating under the same notion that both Cailan and Loghain were, that this Blight could be false.  But until that point, he is doing "exactly" what Loghian did.  Putting his feelings ahead of the good of his nation.

Yes, orders are necessary for an army to operate.  Even a medieval style one like Fereldans that is engaged in combat.  It is why horns were used to give orders during battles.  Thier sound could be heard over the sound of battle and the soldeirs could react to the notes that were played.  Also, the "every man for himself" type battle is actually the halmark of an untrained army.  Trained armies used tropps formations while in combat.  The Roman legions with thier maniples and cohorts, the phalanx's of Sparta and Alexander are examples of this.  The Scots during the Battle of Sterling Bridge (the first battle in Braveheart) used a spear formation called a sheltron to defeat the English cavalry.  Though, in the actual battle, they continued to advance in this formation after they killed the cavalry and did not break apart and charge ahead as the movie shows.

To break apart these formations means that they lose thier strength.  So orders must be given to them so that they move as a formation.  If there is a frontline, then the loss of manpower behind it, either from the people behind it getting killed or refocusing thier attention to the rear, effects it because there is no longer any men to fill the holes left in it when someone dies. 

Besides, it cannot be both ways.  If the Fereldans are trained, then they have a front line and orders must be given to the troops.  If they are untrained, then they fight "every man for himself" and have no frontline because the battle is actually countless man on darkspawn duels.

But yes, I knew the tower was going to be overrun the minute I talked to the guard as well.  Unfortunetly we can not tell Loghain or Cailan about it.  So we are going to have to assume that it being overrun was extremely unpredictable to Cailan, Loghain, and Duncan.

Finally, did he mistrust the Grey Wardens from Orlais becuase they were from Orlais, or was it becuase they showed up at the border with an extra 16,000 chevaliers in tow?  It could be either or really.  But I can actually see Loghain agreeing to let the Wardens in at the beginning, but once they showed up with the chevaliers, him changing his mind and claiming it was all a Grey Warden conspiracy to get the Orlesians inside the border.

[Riot Inducer]

Obliterati wrote...

There's a difference between a villian and a nemesis.

I think Bio-Ware were shooting for the latter for Loghain, but due to some ham-fisted writing and fridge logic they accidently turned him into a snarling and incompetent Generic Bad Guy.

In other words, they were going for Saren, but ended up with Bowser.

this^

Incidentally I think they could have achieved the same "manipulated nemesis that can end up seeing the error of his ways" that they had with Saren. What they missed was showing how Loghain was manipulated, if they had turned Howe into the real manipulator villain instead of just a ruthless sycophant it would have made Loghain a lot more understandable and redeemable. Instead we only get hints that Howe is manipulating Loghain, it's never approached by the plot despite that all the evidence is there; all we are shown in the game is that Loghain planned out everything himself instead of Howe planting the ideas. 

And in the end it makes Loghain very difficult to redeem, I just can't accept him surviving mostly because of how sudden his surrender comes. Right up until the moment before the duel at the Landsmeet he's cursing you out as the the most vile Orlesian scum to ever crawl into Ferelden and yet after getting smacked around by you he suddenly is "happy knowing Ferelden is in your hands". Seriously not only did he cause almost ALL the bad things in the plot to happen but now he's happy to side with you just because you kicked is paranoid ass in a duel?!? WTF?! At this point he comes across as not only paranoid but also schizophrenic; NOT the kind of person I want at my back, especially considering I'd be losing one of the most tried and true warriors (Alistair) at my command for this nutjob.

All in all if they had spent more story time on Howe Loghain could have become a much much much better character and make him much more redeemable. As it stands however he's a foolish and unstable villain, not a complex and misunderstood nemesis of the protagonist. 

[Mnemnosyne]

Axterix wrote...

Actually, one of those points counters your counterpoint, that being that Cailan won't wait for the forces from Redcliffe. 

His suggestion of waiting for the Orlesian forces isn't because he himself wants to wait.  It is made because he knows how Loghain feels about Orlais, knows that he'll refuse it.  And so Cailan gets what he wants, battle now.  If he thought Loghain was likely to agree to that, he wouldn't have made the suggestion.

Cailan doesn't think the forces from Redcliffe are necessary.  Neither do most of the other officers.  Really, nobody thinks the forces from Redcliffe are necessary for that particular battle.  Duncan is the one who would like more forces there, because he knows this is a Blight and that battle wouldn't have been the end of it even if they had achieved a decisive victory.

Indeed, I suspect this is part of why Loghain thinks the Grey Wardens are using the darkspawn as a ruse to bring in Orlesian forces to conquer Ferelden.  All his intelligence suggests that this battle will decisively defeat the darkspawn if it is won, and that it'll just be cleanup duty afterward.  He doesn't believe it's a true Blight, doesn't believe there's a couple hundred thousand darkspawn marching up from the Deep Roads - really, only the Grey Wardens believe that.  The fact that Duncan keeps wanting to bring reinforcements from Orlais although the battle is clearly easily going to be won probably pushes him toward thinking that there must be some other reason that they want to bring in Orlesian reinforcements, because clearly this isn't a true Blight, and therefore there must be some ulterior motive driving this demand for forces which would obviously not be needed by the time they arrive.

I forget exactly where in the game the numbers of the Orlesian Chevaliers that were coming along with the Grey Wardens were stated, I think Riordan said it but I don't recall when or in what conversation, so confirming the 16,000 number is difficult, but I am certain that it was a significant force - enough that, placed deep behind Fereldan lines, would make a full-scale invasion much easier to accomplish since they could strike at supply lines and troop movements and prevent the army from effectively defending the passes in the Frostback Mountains, so that the full Orlesian army could march right in.  The Orlesians were a credible threat, and given military intelligence on the darkspawn at that point in time, a larger overall threat than the darkspawn since they are an intelligent enemy that uses advanced tactics and deception to accomplish their goals.

[Alastrian]

DariusKalera wrote...

So it is ok for Teagan to endanger the country for principles but it is not ok for Loghain?  That is what it is basically boiling down to.  Up until the PC actually tells him that the Blight is real, he seems to be operating under the same notion that both Cailan and Loghain were, that this Blight could be false.  But until that point, he is doing "exactly" what Loghian did.  Putting his feelings ahead of the good of his nation.

Loghain was the one who endangered Fereldan before Teagan ever spoke up against him. And obviously, he's not the only Bann to oppose Loghain.

Loghain abandoned the king, allowed at least half of the total standing army of Fereldan to be slaughtered, outlaws the foremost experts in fighting darkspawn and Blights, slandering their name, and he expects to be rewarded with unquestioned obedience from men who likely lost family and friends at Ostagar? Even before news of the truth spreads, unquestioned obedience to a cretinous thug like him is too much to ask of the Bannorn. Many of them fought the Orlesians too... and would know a tyrant when they see one... even if he is a Fereldan born tyrant. Its precisely because they'd have detested the tyrant for Orlais that they would refuse to submit to another tyrant... even if he is local.

Yes, orders are necessary for an army to operate.  Even a medieval style one like Fereldans that is engaged in combat.  It is why horns were used to give orders during battles.  Thier sound could be heard over the sound of battle and the soldeirs could react to the notes that were played.  Also, the "every man for himself" type battle is actually the halmark of an untrained army.  Trained armies used tropps formations while in combat.  The Roman legions with thier maniples and cohorts, the phalanx's of Sparta and Alexander are examples of this.  The Scots during the Battle of Sterling Bridge (the first battle in Braveheart) used a spear formation called a sheltron to defeat the English cavalry.  Though, in the actual battle, they continued to advance in this formation after they killed the cavalry and did not break apart and charge ahead as the movie shows.

Then why not just use a horn to signal Loghain's forces to charge? Why go to so much dramatic detail with a beacon in a tower that is obviously so easily overrun? If they had horns to signal their soldiers in the middle of battle, why not just tear that tower down altogether and forget about the beacon?

Formations were all well and good before they're embroiled in the thick of a fierce melee. Cavalry in a wedge can punch through enemy lines more efficiently for example... and I've studied ancient history enough to know about the phalanxes. But how are orders and formations supposed to help after the initial engagement? What use are the pikes when the enemy infantry has made it past them and are hacking the pikemen to pieces? That would be the point when they would drop their pike, draw a sword and fight differently.

But anyway, I don't see any pikes or spears or phalanxes in the Fereldan army... nor do I see Legionary cohorts. If these soldiers have no idea how to fight back an attack that breaks their formation, they're dead. The front line soldiers in the bottleneck aren't fighting in formation. Fereldan is not Sparta, Macedon, Rome or Medieval Scotland. Fereldan isn't being led by the likes of Leonidas, Julius Caesar or William Wallace.

To break apart these formations means that they lose thier strength.  So orders must be given to them so that they move as a formation.  If there is a frontline, then the loss of manpower behind it, either from the people behind it getting killed or refocusing thier attention to the rear, effects it because there is no longer any men to fill the holes left in it when someone dies. 

What formations are there? Its every man for himself down there.

Besides, it cannot be both ways.  If the Fereldans are trained, then they have a front line and orders must be given to the troops.  If they are untrained, then they fight "every man for himself" and have no frontline because the battle is actually countless man on darkspawn duels.

Well that's what the battle looks like below when looking down from the bridge. Again, this isn't Sparta or Rome. The darkspawn don't field cavalry so spears aren't quite as useful, Fereldan soldiers look competent enough in personal combat to fight every man for himself. Training in how to march and how to form up into a formation isn't the same as training in how to swing a sword and hold a shield.

But yes, I knew the tower was going to be overrun the minute I talked to the guard as well.  Unfortunetly we can not tell Loghain or Cailan about it.  So we are going to have to assume that it being overrun was extremely unpredictable to Cailan, Loghain, and Duncan.

Cailin and Duncan were trusting Loghain to deal with the tower. And Loghain clearly had no interest in holding it because he didn't want that beacon lit. Either that, or Loghain isn't as brilliant as he's made out to be and couldn't predict that a vast unexplored network of tunnels beneath that tower was a potential liability.

Finally, did he mistrust the Grey Wardens from Orlais becuase they were from Orlais, or was it becuase they showed up at the border with an extra 16,000 chevaliers in tow?  It could be either or really.  But I can actually see Loghain agreeing to let the Wardens in at the beginning, but once they showed up with the chevaliers, him changing his mind and claiming it was all a Grey Warden conspiracy to get the Orlesians inside the border.

Well... his reservations about the Chevaliers behind the Orlesian Grey Wardens are irrational. If the Orlesians really were waiting til Fereldan was weak so they could roll back in, they wouldn't send the Chevaliers in so soon. They'd wait til Ostagar is done and then attack Fereldan with their full strength. Either they'll be virtually unopposed after the army at Ostagar was wiped out, or they'd be facing a weakened army still worn out from the battle.

And as for Loghain's mistrust of Grey Wardens... he seems to hate Fereldan's Grey Wardens almost as much as King Arland did... but Arland at least had to fight a war against them... Loghain only has his own paranoid delusions to justify his hatred of the Fereldan Grey Wardens. He has no evidence that the Chevaliers plan on turning against Fereldan afterward. He can't prove his fears about the Chevaliers any more than he could prove that even Grey Wardens as far away as Weisshaupt are agents of the Empress. Why should Fereldan give up so much just because he's being paranoid and pig-headed?

[Aedan_Cousland]

I forget exactly where in the game the numbers of the Orlesian Chevaliers that were coming along with the Grey Wardens were stated, I think Riordan said it but I don't recall when or in what conversation, so confirming the 16,000 number is difficult, but I am certain that it was a significant force - enough that, placed deep behind Fereldan lines, would make a full-scale invasion much easier to accomplish since they could strike at supply lines and troop movements and prevent the army from effectively defending the passes in the Frostback Mountains, so that the full Orlesian army could march right in.

When Loghain is making his case at the Landsmeet, he mentions that four 'squadrons' of Orlesian knights were invited into Ferelden by the Grey Wardens. How many are in a squadron? A real world cavalry squadron is roughly the equivalent of an infantry or artillery battalion, with 3 or 4 squadrons making up a regiment. If Orlesian cavalry squadrons are also battalion-sized units, then they were sending a regiment (or perhaps a regiment plus 1 additional squadron, dependinding on how they are organized) to Ferelden. If that is the case, 16,000 sounds far too large. 16,000 sounds more like a division sized unit consisting of 3 or 4 regiments.

[Galad22]

I have a question to those that defend Loghains actions.

He keep on about how Grey wardens betrayed and killed king and were about to put him to charge in a trap, yes.

So my question is how did the grey wardens did any of this exactly? To me it just sounds like bollocks, and scapecoat for his own betrayal of his sovereign king, but perhaps some who claim to know his character little better see some hints of grey warden betrayal somewhere in Ostagar. I would very much like to hear about this.

[Mnemnosyne]

Galad22 wrote...

I have a question to those that defend Loghains actions.

He keep on about how Grey wardens betrayed and killed king and were about to put him to charge in a trap, yes.

So my question is how did the grey wardens did any of this exactly? To me it just sounds like bollocks, and scapecoat for his own betrayal of his sovereign king, but perhaps some who claim to know his character little better see some hints of grey warden betrayal somewhere in Ostagar. I would very much like to hear about this.

It is.  It's a hastily thought up lie to cover up the fact that he retreated after the beacon had been lit.  He had to come up with some kind of explanation because at that point thousands of soldiers saw him retreat despite the beacon being lit that was supposed to signal them to attack.  It's an incredibly transparent excuse, and that is why there is so much doubt about Loghain's actions at Ostagar.  His original plan was simply for the beacon never to be lit, so the excuse would have been 'there was never a signal!' which would have been completely understandable by his troops and everyone else.

Alastrian wrote...

Loghain was the one who endangered
Fereldan before Teagan ever spoke up against him. And obviously, he's
not the only Bann to oppose Loghain.

Loghain abandoned the king,
allowed at least half of the total standing army of Fereldan to be
slaughtered, outlaws the foremost experts in fighting darkspawn and
Blights, slandering their name, and he expects to be rewarded with
unquestioned obedience from men who likely lost family and friends at
Ostagar? Even before news of the truth spreads, unquestioned obedience
to a cretinous thug like him is too much to ask of the Bannorn. Many of
them fought the Orlesians too... and would know a tyrant when they see
one... even if he is a Fereldan born tyrant. Its precisely because
they'd have detested the tyrant for Orlais that they would refuse to
submit to another tyrant... even if he is local.

This argument is kind of weak, considering that at the Landsmeet, Loghain has the support of most of Ferelden unless the player goes out of their way to do a number of tasks to secure support from a variety of parties.  Without the various little personal missions that sway the nobles to the Warden's side, Ferelden would choose Loghain as their King. Even after the loss at Ostagar and the bounty on Grey Wardens, and even when the Blight has overrun a huge portion of the country, without the Warden personally helping a number of nobles, they would still trust Loghain to lead the country over anyone else, even over the word of the Queen and Arl Eamon.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Axterix wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

All those points against Cailan are countered by the simple fact that Loghain refuses when Cailan suggests they should wait for Orlesian reinforcements to arrive.  Cailan is brash, but he isn't dumb.

Actually, one of those points counters your counterpoint, that being that Cailan won't wait for the forces from Redcliffe. 

His suggestion of waiting for the Orlesian forces isn't because he himself wants to wait.  It is made because he knows how Loghain feels about Orlais, knows that he'll refuse it.  And so Cailan gets what he wants, battle now.  If he thought Loghain was likely to agree to that, he wouldn't have made the suggestion.

I seriously doubt that.  It was an earnest request.  Arl Eamon does not lead a major force.  It may have been helpful, yes, but by all impressions it was nowhere near as large as the force from Orlais.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 08 décembre 2009 - 11:13 .

[Alastrian]

Koyasha wrote...

This argument is kind of weak, considering that at the Landsmeet, Loghain has the support of most of Ferelden unless the player goes out of their way to do a number of tasks to secure support from a variety of parties.  Without the various little personal missions that sway the nobles to the Warden's side, Ferelden would choose Loghain as their King. Even after the loss at Ostagar and the bounty on Grey Wardens, and even when the Blight has overrun a huge portion of the country, without the Warden personally helping a number of nobles, they would still trust Loghain to lead the country over anyone else, even over the word of the Queen and Arl Eamon.

This is after the civil war has been fought for some time, and many of the Banns who took up arms against Loghain were slaughtered. And you might want to look around the Landsmeet chamber during this session... Loghain's soldiers are everywhere. How many people would be willing to stand up to him in that situation without hard, irrefutable evidence of his crimes against the nobles in Howe's estate, the elves of the Alienage and Arl Eamon.

I imagine they probably already despise him... just not enough for that revulsion to overrule their fear of all the swords by his side in the chamber.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Koyasha wrote...
This argument is kind of weak, considering that at the Landsmeet, Loghain has the support of most of Ferelden unless the player goes out of their way to do a number of tasks to secure support from a variety of parties.  Without the various little personal missions that sway the nobles to the Warden's side, Ferelden would choose Loghain as their King. Even after the loss at Ostagar and the bounty on Grey Wardens, and even when the Blight has overrun a huge portion of the country, without the Warden personally helping a number of nobles, they would still trust Loghain to lead the country over anyone else, even over the word of the Queen and Arl Eamon.

Your'e forgetting that while the PC was busy getting allies, Loghain and Howe have been busy streghtening their position. Murdering "triators", locking people up, threatening, blackmailing, kidnaping, torturing - by the time the Landsmeet starts, half of his opponents have been dealt with allready.

[SeanMurphy2]

Riot Inducer wrote...

Incidentally I think they could have achieved the same "manipulated nemesis that can end up seeing the error of his ways" that they had with Saren. What they missed was showing how Loghain was manipulated, if they had turned Howe into the real manipulator villain instead of just a ruthless sycophant it would have made Loghain a lot more understandable and redeemable. Instead we only get hints that Howe is manipulating Loghain, it's never approached by the plot despite that all the evidence is there; all we are shown in the game is that Loghain planned out everything himself instead of Howe planting the ideas. 

And in the end it makes Loghain very difficult to redeem, I just can't accept him surviving mostly because of how sudden his surrender comes. Right up until the moment before the duel at the Landsmeet he's cursing you out as the the most vile Orlesian scum to ever crawl into Ferelden and yet after getting smacked around by you he suddenly is "happy knowing Ferelden is in your hands". Seriously not only did he cause almost ALL the bad things in the plot to happen but now he's happy to side with you just because you kicked is paranoid ass in a duel?!? WTF?! At this point he comes across as not only paranoid but also schizophrenic; NOT the kind of person I want at my back, especially considering I'd be losing one of the most tried and true warriors (Alistair) at my command for this nutjob.

All in all if they had spent more story time on Howe Loghain could have become a much much much better character and make him much more redeemable. As it stands however he's a foolish and unstable villain, not a complex and misunderstood nemesis of the protagonist. 

I wonder whether the writers initially wrote Loghain as a greyer character with understandable reasons for withdrawing at Ostager that were explored during the mid game.

But the upper management thought they needed a hateable villain. So he was changed to be responsible for Circle Tower, Redcliffe, Assassinations, Slavery, Torture etc.

I think the story could have worked without that. There were already tensions at the Mage tower so Uldred could have led a rebellion. Redcliffe could have happened solely because Isolde tried to hide Connor's ability. Howe as Arl of Denerim could have been responsible for the slavery and torture.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 08 décembre 2009 - 12:22 .

[Maria Caliban]

What did Loghain do with the Mage's Circle? I missed any involvement by him.

[SeanMurphy2]

I think Wynne said something about him making a deal with Uldred after Ostager. He would support Uldred taking control.

"When I finally returned here, I found that Uldred had all but convinced the Circle to join Loghain the man who nearly destroyed us all"

"The alliance with Loghain would have been to the Circle's advantage; according to Uldred, once Loghain was in power, he would order the chantry to give us more freedom."

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 08 décembre 2009 - 12:43 .

[Galad22]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

I wonder whether the writers initially wrote Loghain as a greyer character with understandable reasons for withdrawing at Ostager that were explored during the mid game.

There are no understandable reasons to withraw in Ostagar though. Nada.

[Daerdor]

Sol D'kana wrote...

As others have said Sten sums this up nicely, "No".

Loghain was paranoid, possibly manipulated (by Howe, who was a real piece of work), and to some extent rather stupid, however I do believe he had Ferelden's best interests at heart, no matter how twisted his actions became.

It is debatable whether he wanted Cailen dead, he didn't want him fighting on the front lines afterall. I'm not even sure we can be sure he was certain to go through with the betrayal until he sounded the order. Yes he poisoned Eamon, but that doesn't tell us what doubts he might of had. Does this make it right though? Not at all. He made a bad decision from almost every viewpoint.

However, when it comes to the decision of whether or not to kill him it becomes tricky for me. I cannot say he is evil, he has done some terrible things, and by all accounts deserves to be executed so far as Ferelden law demands. But despite this when I reach that point I find myself veering towards keeping him alive.

Not only does it seem wrong to cut him down in that fashion, but from a Grey Warden's point of view it makes every bit of sense to put him through the joining. The Warden's don't care about your past, so long as you devote your life to fighting the blight. Alistair's objections are understandable of course, but cutting him down in front of the landsmeet just doesn't sit right with me.

I think the same way. Especially when considering the background given in The Stolen Throne: Loghain acted in a way he thought was best for Ferelden. Like he says himself if you chat with him at the end of the game: he made a tactical error... However a very costly error.

At the Landsmeet I really couldn't bring myself to kill him. Even after all what has happened I still see him as the Hero of River Dane.

[Alex Savchovsky]

The battle at Ostagar was stupid obviously. But there are no excuses for betrayal. If he wanted to withdraw his forces, he should have done it before the battle, not at it's peak.

[Galad22]

Koyasha wrote...

This argument is kind of weak, considering that at the Landsmeet, Loghain has the support of most of Ferelden unless the player goes out of their way to do a number of tasks to secure support from a variety of parties.  Without the various little personal missions that sway the nobles to the Warden's side, Ferelden would choose Loghain as their King. Even after the loss at Ostagar and the bounty on Grey Wardens, and even when the Blight has overrun a huge portion of the country, without the Warden personally helping a number of nobles, they would still trust Loghain to lead the country over anyone else, even over the word of the Queen and Arl Eamon.

It is not totally unreasonable to assume that this is only because, most of his enemies are dead after his civil war. Or that their childrens are held hostage somewhere or tortured, after all all this is something that Loghain has been shown to be doing.

That one noble won't support you but won't support Loghain either unless you save his kid with crows help for instance. In which case he is totally willing to support you.

Modifié par Galad22, 08 décembre 2009 - 12:59 .

[Original182]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

The battle at Ostagar was stupid obviously. But there are no excuses for betrayal. If he wanted to withdraw his forces, he should have done it before the battle, not at it's peak.

Unfortunately, there are too many long posts that they intimidated me. But I'm gonna quote one of the shortest posts because it seems in a nutshell.
Cailan, Loghain and Duncan all agreed on the battle plan. If you thought it was not winnable, then don't go ahead, and instead wait for the Orlesians or Eamon's forces to come. Leaving your king to die and making ZERO effort to rescue him is treachery of the highest order.

[SeanMurphy2]

Galad22 wrote...

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

I wonder whether the writers initially wrote Loghain as a greyer character with understandable reasons for withdrawing at Ostager that were explored during the mid game.

There are no understandable reasons to withraw in Ostagar though. Nada.

The writers could have come up with some good reasons. When we first saw the Ostager walkthrough a year ago. There was speculation that it was not as it appeared to be. And there would be some twist to the scene.

Something could have gone disastrously wrong at the battle. Loghain could have faced the choice of saving the King or preserving the rest of the army. Then some incident happened in Denerim or Northern Ferelden. So he had to rush back to stabilise the Kingdom during the power vaccuum.

For the first half of the game, Loghain could at a distance appear to be an outright villain. But over time you can realise that he did what he had to do. There could be some plot by Howe who eventually blames the Kings death on Loghain. So then Loghain is stripped of his army and is about to be executed. But you save him and he joins your party.

[Galad22]

Ok, I can grant you that that could have been interesting.



I just have very hard time to feel any sympathy for Loghain, after all he did, but it would have been great if he were a little greyer character than he was.

[Dark83]

Loghain planned for Cailan to die. No excuses.
1. Arl Eamon was poisoned before the battle (explicitly mentioned in dialog). As a popular royalist, a full investigation (with the full might of the King's army) would have uncovered Jowan and Loghain/Howe's involvement.
2. The Teyrn of Highever and his household were betrayed and attacked before the battle by Howe. Howe is not stupid - if he had no assurance that Cailan would not fall, then he would have just commited suicide. You might argue that Cousland was not meant to survive, but in the Human Noble origin, it becomes explicit. The moment Loghain knows a Cousland is alive and Howe's treachery was revealed, the Warden Cousland and Cailan had to die, or his own involvement would be revealed.

DariusKalera wrote...

BTW, for those that say Ostagar was winnable because it was in a defensive position, and or, it was a bottle neck, need to take a look at the fight again.  Cailan and his troops charged out from behind the defenses.  Simply put, if you are infront of your defenses fighting, they lose their effectiveness as defenses.  Besides, their defenses had already been breached and the tower taken.  On top of all this, a bottleneck only works if the enemy is not already behind you, which they were.  There were darkspawn in the tower and in the wilds north of Ostagar. 

If you hold that the only reason Ostagar was unwinnable was because they charged, then you contend that the only reason Ostagar was unwinnable was because Loghain made the battle unwinnable, as he was the one who told them to charge. The tower was unexpected, but it only took four men to recover. There was no assault from the Wilds in this battle or the previous ones, either.

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

I think they should have mentioned Orlais more.

There could be ordinary people who worry about an Orlesian invasion. Or talk about conditions during the occupation. Or visit significant battles sites in the war of independence.

You mean you want the common people to have thought differently. The evidence shows they worry about the darkspawn, and the political upheaval, not a distant possiblity that has ceased to concern them. It has been, at minimum, one generation. Does the current generation of Americans still fear the Cold War? It's completely outside of their concerns. Even the Orlesian who escaped to Ferelden felt more comfortable there. If there were any hostile feelings towards her, there was no evidence of it. All we get is "Oh, clearly the people hate them" with no evidence other than Loghain's own paranoia.
What's with this "only thirty years" stuff anyways? 30 Years ago, the Berlin wall still stood. The Vietnam War had ended a few years prior. The USSR invaded Afghanistan. Iran became a theocracy. It was the birth of computers.
In Ferelden, if we look at the Middle Ages, women all had their first marriage by the age of 18. Life expectancy in the Middle Ages was 20-30 years. Nobles with better access to healthcare and a better standard of living may exceed that. That means the vast majority of the current Ferelden population are 1 or 2 generations removed from the occupation.
The common people do not worry about an Orlesian invasion.

DariusKalera wrote...
All the cinematic shows when you look down is a bunch of firefly looking lights. The same lights are shown when you see the cutscene and the king is looking out towards the darkspawn horde.  So you can not really tell where the fighting is taking place.

DariusKalera wrote...
Like I said, all you see is the lights. You do not actually "see" the fight going on beneath you. You can assume it is there, but what you are actually shown combat wise is Cailan and the army charging out of the bottleneck in the cut scene.

Turn up your graphics. I don't see lights. I see hordes of darkspawn and soldiers "fighting" (wiggling about with nobody dying).

Loghain's history is irrelevant. He may have been a good man, but from Ostagar on, he is not the man he was. People change.
He was most definetely not right in his choices from Ostagar on. You might say his mistaken personal beliefs make his actions right - but then that would mean Saddam Hussein or Osama Bin Laden was right, because of their mistaken beliefs.

Modifié par Dark83, 08 décembre 2009 - 03:56 .

[Bhatair]

He believed he was right. But he did some pretty wrong things to go about it. Trusting Howe was probably his biggest mistake.

[Chalenheri]

One look at Loghain was enough to got me thinking "He's gonna betray you" :-/



Loghain is what Professor Snape would have become, if Dumbledore had not saved him. They even look alike ^^



If Loghain wanted to get rid of the king, there would have been simpler ways. Sacrificing have your troops is never ever a good tactical move.

Further more he does not know his enemy. Even if he does not believe in the grey wardens and the blight. A good tactician would never kill all grey wardens and therefore the only weapon against the blight. Simply as a precaution in case some of the rumors are true...



As for people not seeing it? That's easy. People see what they want to see.

[OneBadAssMother]

From his history, he's emotionally scarred from the Orlesian occupation, hence, his paranoia/psychological problem limits his use on the battlefield against the blight.