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[DeathWyrmNexus]

Despite my mancrush on Alistair and the fact that I pretty much always execute Loghain, I have a bit of thinking in his defense.



I can't remember which playthrough but I went through the Howe conversation differently. Howe made mention that he wanted Loghain on the throne, "With a trusted advisor, of course." Howe prefers the shadows but likes power. Some of the best power is when you have a shield in front of you. What I gathered from that conversation was that Howe was indeed manipulating Loghain. He offers him solutions of convenience when Loghain is already stressed. Assassins, making enemies disappear.



Loghain was already strained, I don't find it hard to believe that Howe took advantage of that. I can almost see Howe in Loghain's ear goading him to betray the King. Once he had him convinced, he attacked Highever.



So while I don't feel it is entirely Howe's doing, a man does have to take responsibility and Loghain does so at the Landsmeet at least for some of it, Howe did feel like a big part of Loghain's problem. At least in that playthrough. Of course, now that I am bothering to talk about it, I can't remember the specific conversation tree. I want to say Human Mage, my Daemon playthrough.



*sigh* If anybody can confirm or deny, that would be great.

[Marvin TPA]

In defence of Logain.

His man Ulghar does offer a magic signal but is over ruled by the chancery.

He tries to keep the king out of the front lines.

The grey wardens history in Fereldan is not glorious.

I am pretty sure I hear Allistair say in the tower that the signal will be to late.

His choice being to risk everything to late to save a king he does not respect or withdraw and regroup.

So really it was my characters fault for looting everything in sight instead of rushing to the top of the tower.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Marvin TPA wrote...

In defence of Logain.
His man Ulghar does offer a magic signal but is over ruled by the chancery.

We don't exactly know what Uldred was trying to say, he was cut off.

I am pretty sure I hear Allistair say in the tower that the signal will be to late.
His choice being to risk everything to late to save a king he does not respect or withdraw and regroup.
So really it was my characters fault for looting everything in sight instead of rushing to the top of the tower.

It's not too late. You can find some survivors from Ostagar, including some men from Loghains army. Teye make it pretty clear Loghain pulled out beforeh the kings position was overwhelmed.

[ReubenLiew]

Soo... Howe is Jaafar?

[Leonhartx]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Soo... Howe is Jaafar?

haha basically.

[Duck and Cover]

good discussion here. I was hoping for a good discussion on the subject. One of the better points of the game is that it isn't necessarily black and white, there are shades of gray.



Upon reading the comments I have to agree, Ostagar was in a very defensible position. And even if they had lost, they would have knocked out a huge portion of their forces, and the Redcliff forces could have cleaned things up (though a grey warden would still need to finish off the archdemon). Kind of like the Alamo. Even had they lost, they would have slowed them up, and taken out a good portion of them.



Loghain had a right to be concerned about losing. But he wasn't in charge. And even worse, he wasn't willing to sacrifice himself for the cause. He just wanted power.

[II Relics II]

The bulk of the Kings army was left with Loghaine, the front lines were suppose to be a diversion.



Also, Cailan was never suppose to be on the front lines. Loghaine kept asking him not to be on the front lines even though Cailan refused, I think Loghaine meant to use Ostagar as a lesson not to trust Grey Wardens.

[jon 45]

Loghain knew exactly that Cailan wouldn't let himself be persuaded to not fight on the frontlines. That was part of Loghain's plan to get rid of him. A plan which was clearly formed before the battle of Ostagar, as evidenced by Howe's attack on the Cousland's and the poisoning of Arl Eamon (ordered by Loghain personally), both of which happened before the battle plan was fully drawn up.

[Litchenstein]

I think he was more concerned with the orlesians. As you can tell Eamon and Cousland were both on friendly terms with the orlesians. My guess is that he wanted to show the wardens as not trustworthy, so that the ones from orlais with their chevaliers would not be permitted to enter Ferelden. So by getting rid of eamon, cousland, and the Grey Wardens he could villainize them. Cailan while he did want to use them I think was expendable but not neccesarily a target.

[DariusKalera]

Alastrian wrote...

Koyasha wrote...

This argument is kind of weak, considering that at the Landsmeet, Loghain has the support of most of Ferelden unless the player goes out of their way to do a number of tasks to secure support from a variety of parties.  Without the various little personal missions that sway the nobles to the Warden's side, Ferelden would choose Loghain as their King. Even after the loss at Ostagar and the bounty on Grey Wardens, and even when the Blight has overrun a huge portion of the country, without the Warden personally helping a number of nobles, they would still trust Loghain to lead the country over anyone else, even over the word of the Queen and Arl Eamon.

This is after the civil war has been fought for some time, and many of the Banns who took up arms against Loghain were slaughtered. And you might want to look around the Landsmeet chamber during this session... Loghain's soldiers are everywhere. How many people would be willing to stand up to him in that situation without hard, irrefutable evidence of his crimes against the nobles in Howe's estate, the elves of the Alienage and Arl Eamon.

I imagine they probably already despise him... just not enough for that revulsion to overrule their fear of all the swords by his side in the chamber.

We do not know if any of the Bannorn were slaughtered.  We are not given any information on it either way.  We do know that Loghain's forces did attack the lands of one Bann, but they were repulsed by the PC. 

The captives that were held by Howe were apperently down there without thier famileis even realizing it.  When you do all the little side missions concerning them, all of the families are suprised by what you tell them.  So if they had been down there to be used as leverage, then their families would have known about it before hand.

[jon 45]

Litchenstein wrote...
Cailan while he did want to use them I think was expendable but not neccesarily a target.

There are really only two possible explanations for Loghain ordering the murder of Arl Eamon:

a) He planned to kill Cailan

or

He was even more unhinged then he appears and wasn't thinking rationally at all.

[Steel Majere343]

Duck and Cover wrote...

I'm thinking maybe Loghain wasn't as bad as I first thought. 3rd run thru and I'm paying more attention to any dialogue I might have missed (or dialogue that is more relevant if you know the ending). In Ostagar it seems the King's forces aren't sufficient for the battle. Although the King does give him the option of waiting for the Orleisans which Loghain refuses.

Even though the King supports the Grey Wardens is he really in the right here? Is the battle of Ostagar really a wise battle plan given the state of their forces etc.?

So if the king charges headfirst into a sure losing battle, wouldn't the best thing to do is retreat and build up more forces? I know the game portrays him as the bad guy. He is paranoid about the Orleisans for sure. But maybe he isn't as bad as we initially thought. Yes he backstabbed the King to get power, but is this any worse than the Dwarven politics?

It is strange recruiting this guy. I didn't use him as his talents are all messed up (who needs half a tank that late in the game?- it'd be nice if his talent trees were filled out). How could the Wardens trust him? He could backstab them again and try to regain power.

your thoughts on this guy?

intresting topic!. and i believe it!.

although logain set up the battle plan he did advise the king that it was a stupid idea. and so although it was his plan he knew it was a losing battle. If all of the forces got wiped out there would be no room for him to try to build another army.

it could be explained in such a way that logain is not a backstabber at all, it is never admitted in fact that he let the king die to gain the crown actually. All we saw is that he retreated, which could be for that reason or it could be because he knew they would all die if he ran blindly in there. the king was already dead by the time the torch was lit, he wouldnt have been saved anyways and shortly after that duncan died. i doubt logains little force would have done very much to that huge horde of darkspawn.

so i think he did what was tactically wise, and although on all of my games i am forced to dispise logain until near the end i always forgive him and recruit him to stop the blight.

once it is explained and i put myself in his shoes i would have done the same thing, if i knew that there was this huge horde of darkspawn over there and they are clearly dying, why would i send my men over there to die too? wouldnt it be wise to retreat from a losing battle and regroup?

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

No, he wasn't in the right.



Yes, he is right that Cailin isn't fit to be King but he should have chosen another time or place to get that kid off the throne. But he should have seen Feraldin's needs and focused solely on the battle in Ostagar for now.



In the end, I killed him. I did consider keeping him but Alistar was right in that Loghain's crimes can't go unpunished. Too many innocent people died and their lives were far worth more than simply having him along with us to stop the Archdemon. Especially since I knew I would win.

[DariusKalera]

jon 45 wrote...

Litchenstein wrote...
Cailan while he did want to use them I think was expendable but not neccesarily a target.

There are really only two possible explanations for Loghain ordering the murder of Arl Eamon:

a) He planned to kill Cailan

or

He was even more unhinged then he appears and wasn't thinking rationally at all.

c)  He knew that Eamon was married to an Orlesian and could not risk the possibility of her convincing him (Eamon) to side with the Orlesians if they entered the country.

I think this is pretty much the same reason that he allowed Howe to wipe out the Couslands.  He could not be sure that their loyalties were to their country.

[jon 45]

DariusKalera wrote...

c)  He knew that Eamon was married to an Orlesian and could not risk the possibility of her convincing him (Eamon) to side with the Orlesians if they entered the country.

But killing Eamon is very easily traced back to Loghain. He must have relised that he wasn't hiring the most deviously cunning of assassins in Jowan, and Jowan only got into Redcliffe Castle on Loghain's recommendation.

Cailan may not be that bright, but I bet he wouldn't take kindly to Loghain offing his favourite uncle. Which Loghain must have known, so he didn't care what Cailan would think either because he knew Cailan wouldn't be doing any thinking at all by the time Eamon's death became widespread knowledge, or Loghain was too crazy to care about the consequences of his actions.

[AntiChri5]

Alastrian wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Would you fight over a prize thats on fire? All she has to do is wait fot the darkspawn to decimate Fereldens armies then send in the Chevaliers and even be seen as a liberating hero rather than an old enemy returned.

Im not saying that this IS what was going on, just not to rule it out.

By the time Fereldan's army was decimated by the darkspawn, the Blight will have swallowed up the whole of Fereldan, and there would likely be nobody to 'liberate'. And there would certainly be nobody to rebuild... even as a reclaimed province of the Orlesian Empire. Though in that scenario a lot of Chevaliers would be rubbing their hands with glee at the thought of being made into Teyrns, Arls and Banns... or whatever is the Orlesian equivalent.

If it were the plan of the Orlesians to invade Fereldan... better that it be done while there is still a Fereldan to conquer instead of conquering a Blight infested dead zone.

The wardens make it clear that if necessary all of Thedas will unite to to fight the blight. Even if all of Ferelden had burned to the ground the territory could still be made usefull. Not to mention that Denerim is THE BIRTHPLACE OF ANRASTE! I dont think i need to go into detail on how far some nations have gone to reclaim "Holy Land". I dont think he were plotting anything but if they got a great chance they sure as hall would have taken it.

[gwalchmai18]

I think Loghain would have preferred not to stab the king in the back, and knew he was doing so by retreating, and also knew the battle could have been won.  However, Loghain realized that the king had invited the Orlesians into the country, and he had to put a stop to that.  To him, they were a greater threat even then an actual blight.  He was willing to give up the king, and a large army, in exchange for having the authority to be able to stop the Orlesians entering Ferelden to "help" as he saw it. 

The lesson is: nobody is evil in their own mind.  That does not, however, excuse Loghain's actions.  Whether or not his intentions were good, he was probably mistaken about the Orlesians, he was mistaken about which posed a greater threat, and he was very much mistaken that such horrible means (killing the king and most of the army) were justified by the ends.  Loghain is, in fact, evil, whether or not he was justified in his own mind.

[jon 45]

He was definitely mistaken about the Orlesians, which is clear from the epilogues. Nowhere is it mentioned that Orlais launched an invasion, despite the fact that the Blight weakened Ferelden immensely (and significantly more than would have been necessary thanks to Loghain. Now that would have been cosmic irony: Loghain's actions leading to Orlais deciding to attack Ferelden...).

[DariusKalera]

jon 45 wrote...

DariusKalera wrote...

c)  He knew that Eamon was married to an Orlesian and could not risk the possibility of her convincing him (Eamon) to side with the Orlesians if they entered the country.

But killing Eamon is very easily traced back to Loghain. He must have relised that he wasn't hiring the most deviously cunning of assassins in Jowan, and Jowan only got into Redcliffe Castle on Loghain's recommendation.

Cailan may not be that bright, but I bet he wouldn't take kindly to Loghain offing his favourite uncle. Which Loghain must have known, so he didn't care what Cailan would think either because he knew Cailan wouldn't be doing any thinking at all by the time Eamon's death became widespread knowledge, or Loghain was too crazy to care about the consequences of his actions.

Jowan was the perfect assassin.  Skilled enough to do the job, gullible enough to believe his employer, and above all, expendable.  It really does not matter if Jowan was cunning or not, Loghain and more importantly, Howe were.

If Aemon had died, Jowan would most certainly have been killed by Isolde.  If she then tried to blame Loghain for recommending Jowan, it becomes her word against his.  All Loghain would need to do is play on anti-Orlesian feelings in the Bannorn.  Point out that his troops had turned away chavaliers at the border and if they had been allowed in, they would have had a base in Redcliffe since Isolde then controlled it.  Remember, isolde was already very unpopular in the Bannorn to begin with.

Or

He just simply tells her that he will inform the Chantry that her son had the gift/curse of magic to shut her up.  Even if she still makes the claim against Loghain, who are the people of Fereldan going ot believe?

An Orlesian aristocrat, or the national hero?

Modifié par DariusKalera, 08 décembre 2009 - 11:20 .

[jon 45]

DariusKalera wrote...

 Even if she still makes the claim against Loghain, who are the people of Fereldan going ot believe?

An Orlesian aristocrat, or the national hero?

It's not really the people of Ferelden he'd have to worry about, just the king. With whom he hadn't been getting along for a while.

Loghain's ordering of the murder only really makes sense if he did it to ensure that Eamon would not oppose his seizing power after Cailan's death.

[PsychoMunkys]

yes he was right 99,9 % , logain nows that somtimes you have to make a sacrevise for the greater good, the king was a warior not a king al the king wants is glory that is in no way a good thing his dead was necary to save many live's



thats how i played so, specialy whit the anvil of the void yes it's taking souls for golmes , but it can be a great weapons against the blight and the dwarfs wil be able to rebuild there old city's



see its for the greater good

[AntiChri5]

jon 45 wrote...

DariusKalera wrote...

 Even if she still makes the claim against Loghain, who are the people of Fereldan going ot believe?

An Orlesian aristocrat, or the national hero?

It's not really the people of Ferelden he'd have to worry about, just the king. With whom he hadn't been getting along for a while.

Loghain's ordering of the murder only really makes sense if he did it to ensure that Eamon would not oppose his seizing power after Cailan's death.

That is assuming that Jowan is caught. Even then he could have used Blood magic to escape or control her. Loghain couldnt have known he had stumbled onto the only blood mage with a conscience

[phordicus]

let me introduce a new theory:



anora planned all of it:

co-conspired with howe.

manipulated her father.

encouraged cailan's glory-seeking.



in the end, it is she who still has the most options for control and power once the scheme has been put into motion.

[Adria Teksuni]

This question is so complexly subjective, but I'm enjoying the thread.

My opinion? No, Loghain was not right because of what he did to me, personally, and because I disagreed with his decision in general and his choices overall.

Mainly I don't think he's right because I won. Defeated Loghain's intended course of action, and therefore, as the victor, get to say MY way was right. If Loghain had won, the Ferelden Gray Wardens would go down as black hearted traitors. Provided he managed to strengthen Ferelden to his liking and both have a stalwart defense against the Orlesians AND stop the Blight, history would have proclaimed him as most certainly in the right.

[JaegerBane]

In my opinion, no Loghain wasn't right. Not even close.

Basically, paranoia is not an excuse for the kind of risks he took. Leaving the son of his supposed friend to die, poisoning legal and well-liked lords because they didn't agree with him, forcibly taking land - I don't really care whether this fool thought he was defending Ferelden or whatever, he addressed his concerns in the most spectacularly ham-fisted way that he actually weakened the country he professed to be defending.

You can see in the cutscenes that he was beginning to regret his course of action, but whether he was too stubborn or too scared to bring some sense to the table I don't know or care. Frankly the single most satisfying point of the game was shearing the stupid idiot's head off. As far as I'm concerned he goes down in history as the idiot who nearly doomed the country.