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[DariusKalera]

jon 45 wrote...

DariusKalera wrote...

 Even if she still makes the claim against Loghain, who are the people of Fereldan going ot believe?

An Orlesian aristocrat, or the national hero?

It's not really the people of Ferelden he'd have to worry about, just the king. With whom he hadn't been getting along for a while.

Loghain's ordering of the murder only really makes sense if he did it to ensure that Eamon would not oppose his seizing power after Cailan's death.

Even the king has to bow to the will of the people.  This is especially true when dealing with someone that is the hero of the nation.  The poisoning order also makes sense when looked at through the eyes of Loghain.  Eamon married an Orlesian, he could not be certain of his or her loyalties.  He could not risk someone with Eamon's influence in the court being led around by a wife that held more loyalty to Orlais.  Now, as we can see by what happened to Alistair, Isolde did have tremendous influence over Eamon.

[Leo]

PsychoMunkys wrote...

yes he was right 99,9 % , logain nows that somtimes you have to make a sacrevise for the greater good, the king was a warior not a king al the king wants is glory that is in no way a good thing his dead was necary to save many live's

Too bad that decision caused the loss of Arl Wulfe's Lands and nearly doomed Fereldan

PsychoMunkys wrote...
thats how i played so, specialy whit the anvil of the void yes it's taking souls for golmes , but it can be a great weapons against the blight and the dwarfs wil be able to rebuild there old city's

Is Slavery a good thing?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Pious_Augustine wrote...
Is Slavery a good thing?

The standing ruins of the world's greatest civilisations can answer that.

[Kavva]

Loghain isnt power hungry bastard as i thought he was, when ive finished reading the book it was clear to me that what he did it was for Fereldens best interest. Cailan was a fool without a dignity who wanted to side with Orlesians - the ones that Loghain and Maric - father of Cailan fought against. My first impressions of Cailan was: a 14 year old boy who lives in a dream world of great battles and plays with grey wardens mini-toys.I would side with Loghain anytime

[Dark83]

It was mentioned elsewhere that the books were written after the game.

The game portrayal of the character is relevant to the game. The books are secondary media.

[Dark83]

Marvin TPA wrote...

In defence of Logain.
His man Ulghar does offer a magic signal but is over ruled by the chancery.

This is not in favor or Loghain. There is already doubt that he ever intended to light the beacon in the first place. This would put the testimony squarly with Loghain, who is then free to claim the signal never arrived.

Marvin TPA wrote...
His choice being to risk everything to late to save a king he does not respect or withdraw and regroup.

Again. His plan. Executed flawlessly, with the exception of the lit beacon.

To argue that he knows the timing is to ignore the point of the beacon. Either he knows the timing and doesn't need the beacon, or he doesn't know the timing and needs the beacon. You can't have both. It's not as if those in the tower are the decision makers. Nobody goes "Oh, we need to light the beacon now." There's nobody making that decision there.

,,,which is something I thought was odd, anyways. Assuming that the beacon was supposed to be lit, and that it hadn't been overrun - how does the one who is supposed to light the beacon know when to light it?

[Kavva]

Dark83 wrote...

It was mentioned elsewhere that the books were written after the game.
The game portrayal of the character is relevant to the game. The books are secondary media.

Book was written by David Gaider lead writer of DA:O and it tells a story that happened before the events of Origins so thanks to it i have more info about Loghain and what drives him. Maybe for you books are secondary media.

Modifié par Kavva, 09 décembre 2009 - 02:04 .

[Litchenstein]

So back to the original thesis, I believe that Loghain did not set out to kill Cailan but rather to remove Orlesian influence from Ferelden. The Grey wardens, Eamon (Isolde), and the Couslands ( that drunk visiting noble. Which from a political point of view is certainly strong armed but not neccesarily evil. He helped to drive them out and feared they would take the darkspawn opportunity and return.

He always intended to leave the wardens to their death, however. I just don't believe he was doing it for power, Cailan would have lived if he hadnt insisted on fighting with Duncan at every turn. In fact without Cailan dead I believe his plan would have worked far better. Howe would have been executed after Ostagar, getting rid of his not so subtle partner in crime. And no one would believe a Malificar over the teryn

[YunDog]

There were several individuals that used the darkspawn to seize power from the hands of fools.
The king was a foolhardy, idealistic, pretty boy, who was in league with the Grey wardens, if he didnt lose to the darkspawn then Feredin would be so weekend that the Orlesians could take them out with a couple of girl scouts.

The grey wardens, a dangerous political and military cult had already attempted to seize power via military coup, and were involved with dark magics, and their exact relationship to the darkspawn itself is uncertain. They could have already made a deal with the Orlesians in fact a legion of grey wardens was at the border ready to invade.

Loghains daughter was the true monarch of Fereldin. Loghain could see all too well the Grey wardens with the help of their Orleasian allies, taking control of the puppet king and all of Fereldin. Fereldin would be the sacrificial lamb to draw out the darkspawn.

Every move he made was not only rational but necessary to protect his family and kingdom. Dont forget he was the loyal servant of the previous king for many years, a king that the Grey Wardens had attempted to over throw.

This is no black and white thing
I can see Loghain side all too well, and in the same circumstances would probably do the same - kudos to the writers for making this story so grey

Modifié par YunDog, 09 décembre 2009 - 02:29 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

YunDog wrote...

There were several individuals that used the darkspawn to seize power from the hands of fools.
The king was a foolhardy, idealistic, pretty boy, who was in league with the Grey wardens, if he didnt lose to the darkspawn then Feredin would be so weekend that the Orlesians could take them out with a couple of girl scouts.

The grey wardens, a dangerous political and military cult had already attempted to seize power via military coup, and were involved with dark magics, and their exact relationship to the darkspawn itself is uncertain. They could have already made a deal with the Orlesians in fact a legion of grey wardens was at the border ready to invade.

Loghains daughter was the true monarch of Fereldin. Loghain could see all too well the Grey wardens with the help of their Orleasian allies, taking control of the puppet king and all of Fereldin. Fereldin would be the sacrificial lamb to draw out the darkspawn.

Every move he made was not only rational but necessary to protect his family and kingdom. Dont forget he was the loyal servant of the previous king for many years, a king that the Grey Wardens had attempted to over throw.

This is no black and white thing
I can see Loghain side all too well, and in the same circumstances would probably do the same - kudos to the writers for making this story so grey

It's not rational if you base it on irrational assumptions.  For that reason, it's not equal parts black and white - it's 99% black and 1% white.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 09 décembre 2009 - 03:00 .

[SeanMurphy2]

I think he did the right thing with the information he had.

The Darkspawn were only a problem in the Korcari Wilds. There were not many people worrying about a Blight advancing into Ferelden. Or forsaw what was at stake at Ostager.

If the beacon is lit too late and the King is already dead. It would be pointless to charge your army into the valley to kill a group of Darkspawn.

I agree he messes up afterwards. He should have kept a force behind to monitor the Darkspawn threat in the south. And he could have handled the Nobles without causing a revolt. Why demand resource from the Nobles if it causes a civil war that uses up substantial resources? It is counterproductive. And it is a distraction which makes the Kingdom more vulnerable to the Orlesians and the Darkspawn.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 09 décembre 2009 - 03:20 .

[Alastrian]

PsychoMunkys wrote...

yes he was right 99,9 % , logain nows that somtimes you have to make a sacrevise for the greater good, the king was a warior not a king al the king wants is glory that is in no way a good thing his dead was necary to save many live's

If saving lives was the purpose of his treachery, he epitomizes Epic Fail. Most of Fereldan was swallowed up by the Blight because he abandoned the most defensible point between the darkspawn and the rest of Fereldan.

thats how i played so, specialy whit the anvil of the void yes it's taking souls for golmes , but it can be a great weapons against the blight and the dwarfs wil be able to rebuild there old city's

see its for the greater good

Recovering the Anvil is not for the greater good. There comes a point where whoever the dwarven king is, they stop offering Branka souls to sacrifice to the anvil... so Branka starts raiding the surface and kidnapping innocents to make up the difference.

Bhelen can do a pretty good job of bolstering the strength of Orzammar, reclaiming some of the lost thaigs and pushing the Darkspawn line back without the anvil... there's more than enough recruits for a bigger, stronger army in Dust Town... but it takes a king who cares nothing for the caste system.

[Alastrian]

DariusKalera wrote...


We do not know if any of the Bannorn were slaughtered.  We are not given any information on it either way.  We do know that Loghain's forces did attack the lands of one Bann, but they were repulsed by the PC. 

I'm pretty sure the reports of the battles going Loghain's way are pretty damning. He doesn't look like one who tolerates opposition... so his forces most likely execute the prisoners they take from the defeated rebels.

The captives that were held by Howe were apperently down there without thier famileis even realizing it.  When you do all the little side missions concerning them, all of the families are suprised by what you tell them.  So if they had been down there to be used as leverage, then their families would have known about it before hand.

Well that matches my point exactly. At the Landsmeet, they probably already despise Loghain as a tyrant, even if they would not openly admit it, after all most of them probably fought the Orlesians too and thus know a tyrant when they see one. But they have plenty of reason to fear him given that he had been winning the civil war thus far, and the Landsmeet chamber was surrounded by his troops.

Him being a tyrant is not enough alone to convince them to vote against him when they're afraid that he'll execute them for 'treason' (which is what he does in fact threaten to do to the Landsmeet when they vote against him). What pushes them to vote against him is the other crimes... the ones that make it personal. The crimes that make it evidently clear that they cannot abide living under this tyrant... if they didn't know what he did to their loved ones... they'd simply assume that they could just sit down, shut up, obey his commands and hope for the best.

[Melkor-Son of None]

Duncan believed in the fight. That is good enough for me.

Loghain is in no way a good guy...

-He would not wait for Orlesian forces.
-Turned back the Grey Warden reinforcements from the border (Riordan tells you this).
-Blamed The Grey Wardens for the death of Cailan.
-Imprisons his own daughter.
-Sold elves into slavery.
-Sanctioned the tourcher of inoccents.
-Did not do as the King commanded.

Hate that ***hole.

Loved Alistairs remark at the end: "Forget Maric. This is for Duncan."

[DariusKalera]

Alastrian wrote...

DariusKalera wrote...


We do not know if any of the Bannorn were slaughtered.  We are not given any information on it either way.  We do know that Loghain's forces did attack the lands of one Bann, but they were repulsed by the PC. 

I'm pretty sure the reports of the battles going Loghain's way are pretty damning. He doesn't look like one who tolerates opposition... so his forces most likely execute the prisoners they take from the defeated rebels.

The captives that were held by Howe were apperently down there without thier famileis even realizing it.  When you do all the little side missions concerning them, all of the families are suprised by what you tell them.  So if they had been down there to be used as leverage, then their families would have known about it before hand.

Well that matches my point exactly. At the Landsmeet, they probably already despise Loghain as a tyrant, even if they would not openly admit it, after all most of them probably fought the Orlesians too and thus know a tyrant when they see one. But they have plenty of reason to fear him given that he had been winning the civil war thus far, and the Landsmeet chamber was surrounded by his troops.

Him being a tyrant is not enough alone to convince them to vote against him when they're afraid that he'll execute them for 'treason' (which is what he does in fact threaten to do to the Landsmeet when they vote against him). What pushes them to vote against him is the other crimes... the ones that make it personal. The crimes that make it evidently clear that they cannot abide living under this tyrant... if they didn't know what he did to their loved ones... they'd simply assume that they could just sit down, shut up, obey his commands and hope for the best.

If he was slaughtering all of his opposition in such a manner, then it is doubtful that the nobles would have agreed to come to the Landsmeet.  Inside of Denerim, I highly doubt that they would have had access to most their armies which would put them at his mercy.   If he really was as mad and power hungry as what has been claimed, he would have killed them all without a second thought as soon as they stepped into the hall.  He would not have taken the risk of them voting against him.

So, I am thinking that they reasonably believed that they were safe. 

[Alastrian]

YunDog wrote...

There were several individuals that used the darkspawn to seize power from the hands of fools.
The king was a foolhardy, idealistic, pretty boy, who was in league with the Grey wardens, if he didnt lose to the darkspawn then Feredin would be so weekend that the Orlesians could take them out with a couple of girl scouts.

Whatever Cailin's faults, he is the legitimate son of Maric, descended from Calenhad and thus the rightful king. Abandoning him at Ostagar is functionally similar to murdering him... which is an act of treason.

The grey wardens, a dangerous political and military cult had already attempted to seize power via military coup, and were involved with dark magics, and their exact relationship to the darkspawn itself is uncertain. They could have already made a deal with the Orlesians in fact a legion of grey wardens was at the border ready to invade.

That attempted coup was more than a century ago when a disgruntled member of the royal line decided that she would make the Grey Wardens into her own private army. It had nothing to do with the Grey Wardens of Orlais, or anywhere else. Don't forget that the original Grey Wardens were from the Anderfels... and Weisshaupt is the international headquarters of all Grey Wardens in Thedas.

And what's so uncertain about the relationship the Grey Wardens have with the darkspawn when their stated purpose is to destroy them... and all four archdemons thus far were slain by one?

As for the dark magics... well its unfortunate but they do what they have to in order to stop the Blight. Ending the Blight is more important than any petty politics.

But congratulations... your post sounds like well crafted propaganda that would make any fascist proud.

Loghains daughter was the true monarch of Fereldin. Loghain could see all too well the Grey wardens with the help of their Orleasian allies, taking control of the puppet king and all of Fereldin. Fereldin would be the sacrificial lamb to draw out the darkspawn.

No... Anora is not the rightful monarch of Fereldan. She is only joined to the Theirin line by marriage... marriage to a king that her father was planning to betray before she could have his son. Were Anora to have had a son by Cailin before he was butchered at Ostagar, then she might have a claim to the title of a 'Queen Regent' until her son was of age. But she remained childless when her husband died... which means that even the bastard son of Maric has a stronger claim than her.

In fact part of why Loghain had Eamon poisoned was probably to keep the news of Alistair's birthright from being spread.

As for the Orlesian forces accompanying the Grey Warden reinforcements... they'd hardly be enough to take Fereldan from the entire king's army. And if they really wanted to invade... why didn't they just attack Loghain's forces at the border when they turned them away? Or come back with more troops?

Every move he made was not only rational but necessary to protect his family and kingdom. Dont forget he was the loyal servant of the previous king for many years, a king that the Grey Wardens had attempted to over throw.

The king you're talking about was not Maric. Arland was the king the Grey Wardens rebelled against and that was more than a century ago. And like I said, the Fereldan Grey Wardens had more or less become Sophia Dryden's personal army and in no way would have been endorsed by the leaders of the order at Weisshaupt.

Paranoia is not a rational motive... in fact its a form of psychosis. Indirectly murdering the son of his best friend, bullying the Bannorn into unquestioningly obeying him, allowing his pet viper Arl Howe torture the sons and brothers of the nobles, lashing out against the Landsmeet when they turn against him... none of that is rational. Much of it is even unnecessary. Tell me how torturing a Templar and a noble's son is 'necessary'. Such an insinuation is nauseating.

Quite simply Loghain is a brute playing at statesmanship... and it inevitably ends as an epic fail, being that he is the most divisive figure in Fereldan politics. I mean just look at this thread... the divisiveness of his actions and his personality are spilling out of the game and into real life... and at the risk of sounding like an armchair psychoanalyst, I do find it disturbing how some people here are so easily impressed by the angry thug with all the swords, and are so ready to ignore atrocities such as torture and slavery.

This is no black and white thing
I can see Loghain side all too well, and in the same circumstances would probably do the same - kudos to the writers for making this story so grey

You'd do the same as Loghain? Then congratulations, you psychopath

[Alastrian]

Kavva wrote...

Dark83 wrote...

It was mentioned elsewhere that the books were written after the game.
The game portrayal of the character is relevant to the game. The books are secondary media.

Book was written by David Gaider lead writer of DA:O and it tells a story that happened before the events of Origins so thanks to it i have more info about Loghain and what drives him. Maybe for you books are secondary media.

Another thing to consider... the book was set thirty years ago... and we're supposed to be seeing the game from the perspective of someone born after the rebellion was finished who never knew Loghain personally. In fact Wynne is the only companion who would be old enough to clearly remember the Orlesian occupation and Maric's rebellion... but I'd imagine that being a Circle mage, she wouldn't have seen too much of it given the reluctance of the Chantry to allow mages to go into the outside world.

[DariusKalera]

I think what YunDog meant by "true" monarch of Fereldan was that she was the one that was actually doing the ruling. It's even stated in game that it is accepted fact that she is the real power on the throne.



Also, I doubt that Loghain knew about Alistair being Cailin's brother. If he had, he would have gone after Alistair directly.

[Alastrian]

DariusKalera wrote...


If he was slaughtering all of his opposition in such a manner, then it is doubtful that the nobles would have agreed to come to the Landsmeet.  Inside of Denerim, I highly doubt that they would have had access to most their armies which would put them at his mercy.   If he really was as mad and power hungry as what has been claimed, he would have killed them all without a second thought as soon as they stepped into the hall.  He would not have taken the risk of them voting against him.

So, I am thinking that they reasonably believed that they were safe. 

This is at a point when Eamon has awoken from his coma and has the full might of Redcliffe behind him. Not to mention he also has the allies that the Grey Warden has gathered. They'd know that if he slaughtered them, the civil war would escalate and both sides would wipe each other out leaving nobody to defeat the darkspawn. I suppose I did forget that Loghain isn't the only one with troops in there... Eamon has some of his own, and that might help with gathering courage to speak against Loghain.

Not to mention how popular his daughter supposedly is... and they'd likely count on her being Loghain's 'voice of reason' given that she is supposed to be the queen before Alistair's birthright is brought up. Maybe the Landsmeet knew she could be more than a figurehead and probably trusted her to keep her father and his pet bulldogs such as Cauthrien on a leash. I doubt they counted on him allowing his own daughter to be imprisoned and possibly murdered by Howe.

I dunno... maybe I presume too much trying to get into the heads of the nobles. but given that my character is the son of Teyrn Cousland (and at this point presumably the last of the Cousland line... you don't yet know that Fergus is alive and well), I get that kind of perspective.

[Alastrian]

DariusKalera wrote...

I think what YunDog meant by "true" monarch of Fereldan was that she was the one that was actually doing the ruling. It's even stated in game that it is accepted fact that she is the real power on the throne.

I'm not doubting that she's a capable administrator... in fact I see it as a pretty good end if Alistair marries her and they rule jointly.

Also, I doubt that Loghain knew about Alistair being Cailin's brother. If he had, he would have gone after Alistair directly.

Allowing Howe to hire Zevran to go kill all remaining Wardens isn't going for Alistair directly?

Loghain was Maric's best friend... wouldn't you think that Maric would have boasted of his sexual conquests... I don't see it as unfeasible that Loghain would know of any bastards of Maric.

[DariusKalera]

Alastrian wrote...

DariusKalera wrote...


If he was slaughtering all of his opposition in such a manner, then it is doubtful that the nobles would have agreed to come to the Landsmeet.  Inside of Denerim, I highly doubt that they would have had access to most their armies which would put them at his mercy.   If he really was as mad and power hungry as what has been claimed, he would have killed them all without a second thought as soon as they stepped into the hall.  He would not have taken the risk of them voting against him.

So, I am thinking that they reasonably believed that they were safe. 

This is at a point when Eamon has awoken from his coma and has the full might of Redcliffe behind him. Not to mention he also has the allies that the Grey Warden has gathered. They'd know that if he slaughtered them, the civil war would escalate and both sides would wipe each other out leaving nobody to defeat the darkspawn. I suppose I did forget that Loghain isn't the only one with troops in there... Eamon has some of his own, and that might help with gathering courage to speak against Loghain.

Not to mention how popular his daughter supposedly is... and they'd likely count on her being Loghain's 'voice of reason' given that she is supposed to be the queen before Alistair's birthright is brought up. Maybe the Landsmeet knew she could be more than a figurehead and probably trusted her to keep her father and his pet bulldogs such as Cauthrien on a leash. I doubt they counted on him allowing his own daughter to be imprisoned and possibly murdered by Howe.

I dunno... maybe I presume too much trying to get into the heads of the nobles. but given that my character is the son of Teyrn Cousland (and at this point presumably the last of the Cousland line... you don't yet know that Fergus is alive and well), I get that kind of perspective.

But how many troops could Eamon have possibly had after what went on in the village and the castle?  It is doubtful that the "full might" of Redcliffe could have challenged Loghain's army even when Redcliffe was at full strength.  The only noble that could have possibly gone against Loghain manpower wise, at least before Ostagar anyway, was Bryce Cousland.  He and Loghain were the two most powerful nobles short of the king himself.

All the other nobles were of lesser rank and controlled smaller tracts of land than Loghain did and therefore, had smaller reserves of manpower to draw upon.

If Loghain had slaughtered them all during the Landsmeet, there would have been no one left to lead the opposing side of the civil war.  The elves, dwarves, and magi were concerned about the Blight, they really could not careless about who was fighting who in the civil war.  They only agree to help the PC becuase of the treaties and because he or she jumps through hoops doing thier dirty work.

So, I think Loghain knew enough not to kill the nobles that were fighting him.  He needed them defeated, not dead.  Dead, their armies vanish and are no longer useful to him.

[DariusKalera]

Alastrian wrote...

DariusKalera wrote...

I think what YunDog meant by "true" monarch of Fereldan was that she was the one that was actually doing the ruling. It's even stated in game that it is accepted fact that she is the real power on the throne.

I'm not doubting that she's a capable administrator... in fact I see it as a pretty good end if Alistair marries her and they rule jointly.

Also, I doubt that Loghain knew about Alistair being Cailin's brother. If he had, he would have gone after Alistair directly.

Allowing Howe to hire Zevran to go kill all remaining Wardens isn't going for Alistair directly?

Loghain was Maric's best friend... wouldn't you think that Maric would have boasted of his sexual conquests... I don't see it as unfeasible that Loghain would know of any bastards of Maric.

Nope, he does not go after Alistair directly.  At least, not for being an heir to the throne anyway.  If he goes after him, it is simply for the fact that he is a surviving Grey Warden and knows the truth about what happened at Ostagar.  Nothing else.

[Alastrian]

I have trouble believing that Maric's best friend of more than thirty years wouldn't know if Maric's intimate escapades had produced a bastard son. Do best friends not share just about everything with each other? Why wouldn't Maric confide in his best friend if one such rendezvous produced a bastard who could potentially cause trouble for his legitimate son further down the line?



If Alistair himself knows he's Maric's son... if Goldanna knows it... if Eamon and Teagan know it, then I'd have no doubt that Maric would know... and if Maric knows he has a bastard son, then surely his best friend should also know.



Just because he went after Alistair because he's a Grey Warden survivor at Ostagar doesn't mean he isn't also hoping to see Maric's last living blood relative removed from the picture.

[DariusKalera]

Alastrian wrote...

I have trouble believing that Maric's best friend of more than thirty years wouldn't know if Maric's intimate escapades had produced a bastard son. Do best friends not share just about everything with each other? Why wouldn't Maric confide in his best friend if one such rendezvous produced a bastard who could potentially cause trouble for his legitimate son further down the line?

If Alistair himself knows he's Maric's son... if Goldanna knows it... if Eamon and Teagan know it, then I'd have no doubt that Maric would know... and if Maric knows he has a bastard son, then surely his best friend should also know.

Just because he went after Alistair because he's a Grey Warden survivor at Ostagar doesn't mean he isn't also hoping to see Maric's last living blood relative removed from the picture.

Alistair knows becuase he was told by Eamon.  Goldanna, Eamon, and Teagan all know because they were there when it happens.  Maric did know and had it kept quiet because if it came out, then Cailin's claim was in jeopardy.  Which, actually, might mean the Alistair is older than Cailin but because he was illegitimate, it would not be good for the country to have him on the throne.

Loghain does not surely have to know.  I do not know who all my best friend of 15 years has slept with, nor do I know if any of them have had his kid.  For all we know, it was simply a one night stand for Maric that had an unforeseen consequence.  If Loghain was not at Recliffe when it happened, then there is no reason for him to know and no reason for Maric to tell him.  Especially since Maric wanted it to remain secret and the mroe people you tell a secret to, the less secret it becomes.

If he did know, he would have figured out some way to get rid of him at Ostagar with Cailin and the other Grey Wardens.

[Draconis6666]

I'm pretty sure it came up in converstation at some point that Cailan knew about Alister, and that Anora also knew, which makes it very unlikely that Loghain didnt