52 réponses à ce sujet

[JaegerBane]

Raythehat wrote...

I'd suggest either the GPS or the Scimitar. The GPS hits hard and has great range but the low capacity and weight are quite irritating. The Scimitar is practical, does more than decent damage with a high rate of fire and nice capacity.

Personally, I've found that the claymore is a bit of a "meh" choice for a vanguard due to the low capacity and disgusting weight. Even if you're not bothered by the loss of power recharge speed, the reload timer and the fact you only get a single shot per round makes you a glass cannon at best.

I'd probably say that the Scimitar and the Graal are the best choices, as they both cover different aspects of shotgunning but both maintain high DPS. They both can do the job at short range but they also have interesting characteristics that render them useful under situations that shotguns traditionally aren't (long range and anti-amour from Graal, ability to handle multiple opponents at once due to high RoF and large clip).

The Claymore is one of those things that I just don't understand why it gets such a reception. Personally the idea of a super-heavy gun that shoots once and only works properly at short range sounds like a waste of time, but I guess people have their preferences.

[Raythehat]

Well, we both seem to agree on the Scimitar and Claymore - can't say the same for the Graal though, always rubbed me the wrong way. But each to his/her own, I guess. GPS and Graal do have many things in common however, so it's certainly possible it just comes down to personal preference there between those two.

[ashwind]

Raythehat wrote...
Personally, I've found that the claymore is a bit of a "meh" choice for a vanguard due to the low capacity and disgusting weight. Even if you're not bothered by the loss of power recharge speed, the reload timer and the fact you only get a single shot per round makes you a glass cannon at best.

Kronner has a thread "Shepard the Honorary Krogan BattleMaster" that showcase the defensive power of the Claymore, the thread also explains why the Claymore is the best offensive and defensive shotgun for Vanguards (who depends on guns to kill and not Nova <_<).

[Edit] Below is the link:
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/347/index/11399010/1#11399010

Modifié par ashwind, 29 avril 2012 - 11:04 .

[Fortack]

JaegerBane wrote...

The Claymore is one of those things that I just don't understand why it gets such a reception. Personally the idea of a super-heavy gun that shoots once and only works properly at short range sounds like a waste of time, but I guess people have their preferences.

Claymore has pretty good range when you use the accuracy mod - she can oneshot most enemies you have to deal with. Claymore is also the only truly deadly shotgun in this game. GPS and Graal are not "real" shotguns imo, more gimmick weapons that ended up in the shotgun tree. Both are very effective, but lack the "BOOM you're death" feature

Having something that looks and sounds intimidating may not win the day but it feels darn good. Claymore is also the only weapon in ME3 that can kill nearly anything with a single shot (shield gate? lolwut

Her weight is not an issue. The frequency you can use powers will be limited by Claymore's reload speed and cooldowns are fast enough to cancel the last part of the reload animation all day long. You can quite easily kill two (or more) enemies in one cycle: cast power (either to setup or detonate a powercombo) > shoot > reload and cancel using a power again > rinse and repeat. There isn't much room for error, but when the plan comes together there is nothing in ME like it.

[Fortack]

Raythehat wrote...

Personally, I've found that the claymore is a bit of a "meh" choice for a vanguard due to the low capacity and disgusting weight. Even if you're not bothered by the loss of power recharge speed, the reload timer and the fact you only get a single shot per round makes you a glass cannon at best.

What's wrong with being a glass cannon? I use the Claymore on my Asari Adept in MP and she can handle herself quite well

[Seifer006]

I'm starting a new playthrough on Insanity being a Vanguard. There's the claymore, which i used in ME2 a lot. It's very powerful and the sound is awesome.

I also enjoy the Graal Spike Shotgun.

Modifié par Seifer006, 29 avril 2012 - 02:13 .

[Andrew Bourne]

After about 3 retries of "Destroy Reaper Base" on Rannoch, testing different shotguns, I think I've made my personal decision. First off, I'm using charge SOOOOOOO much better, and am hopping around the battlefield like nobodies business. Only died twice, and that was cause of the Primes after the elevator.

I think I settled on the Wraith as my personal favorite. I am a compulsive reloader, and the reload time of the Graal and the Scimitar was a major turn off. So when I would frequently reload my Wraith, it was quick and painless mostly. The spread was perfect for how close I got, and I just played the best with it. The Graal just wouldn't work for me. I tried firing one shot, but instead started to charge its shot, so I was caught with my pants down after a biotic charge. The Scimitar was weaker than I remember it back on Palaven, even after fully upgrading it.

I have come to the conclusion that the Wraith with the damage and spare ammo mod was best suited for me, and I kicked ass on my favorite mission in the game because of it.

[tehprincessJ]

I've done insanity with my vanguard, but usually play on hardcore, and I go with the Scimitar. It's a good weapon without being heavy as all hell. You're going to want to use your powers, I assume (or you'd be playing a different class).

[capn233]

ashwind wrote...

Claymore Shredder + Choke. Average 3 shots kills Atlas after its shield went down.

Claymore Barrel + Choke. Average 4 shots to kills Atlas after its shield went down.

Hmm what levels on all the equipment?

So a number I found for Claymore damage is 1528, I am not sure what level that is and would be 191 damage per shot (as in each projectile from a shotgun).  Applying armor reduction per shot would mean it is 141 damage per shot, or 1128 total damage per "clip," a single trigger pull...

Shredder V ignores 65% of protection so armor damage reduction should be down to 17.5 per shot.  That is 173.5 per shot, or 1388 total damage.

High Caliber Barrel V increases damage by 25%... so that should be 238.75 per shot (1910 total) which against armor would be 188.75 per shot against armor, or 1510 total damage.

If my Claymore numbers are wrong, please tell me, I didn't find a good source for SP damage.  Or if the HCB is another case of Bioware False Advertising and applies 25% to some crappy base number, I suppose that would mess with my figures (assuming the number I used isn't Claymore base).  Alternatively, if you aimed at the glass and could apply damage from each shot twice, as you can with penetrating weapons in MP, then perhaps that also led to the above result.

[ashwind]

capn233 wrote...
So a number I found for Claymore damage is 1528, I am not sure what level that is and would be 191 damage per shot (as in each projectile from a shotgun).  Applying armor reduction per shot would mean it is 141 damage per shot, or 1128 total damage per "clip," a single trigger pull...

Shredder V ignores 65% of protection so armor damage reduction should be down to 17.5 per shot.  That is 173.5 per shot, or 1388 total damage.

High Caliber Barrel V increases damage by 25%... so that should be 238.75 per shot (1910 total) which against armor would be 188.75 per shot against armor, or 1510 total damage.

If my Claymore numbers are wrong, please tell me, I didn't find a good source for SP damage.  Or if the HCB is another case of Bioware False Advertising and applies 25% to some crappy base number, I suppose that would mess with my figures (assuming the number I used isn't Claymore base).  Alternatively, if you aimed at the glass and could apply damage from each shot twice, as you can with penetrating weapons in MP, then perhaps that also led to the above result.

I do not know the figures. I tested it on NG++, which means all mods are level V and all guns are level X.

I believe the key lies in "Ignore Protection". This is my theory:
Shredder ignores 65% protection on armored unit. Which means if the armored unit has damage protection value 100, it would be down to 35. Barrel does 25% more damage but it has to deal with a protection value of 100. Hence, the heavier protection the armored unit has, the more damage it will take. I am also assuming that the protection means damage reduction. So from 50% damage reduction, 65% of it ignored, it will have only 17.5% damage reduction left.

I have tested mainly with Claymore, Disciple, Scimitar, Katana and Graal. The Shredder always does superior damage to armored units like Harvester, Brute, Revenger, unshielded Atlas, unbarried Banshees.

Modifié par ashwind, 30 avril 2012 - 01:30 .

[Omega-202]

ashwind wrote...

I have tested mainly with Claymore, Disciple, Scimitar, Katana and Graal. The Shredder always does superior damage to armored units like Harvester, Brute, Revenger, unshielded Atlas, unbarried Banshees.

Except for the Graal.  It's unaffected by Shredder's armor piercing bonus because it always does full damage.  That's just how all non-traditional projectile weapons work in this game.  

The GPS, Graal, Kishock etc. all do full damage to armor no matter what.  If you claim otherwise its just in your head. Its been confirmed multiple times by in game testing and the data that's been pulled from the .ini files confirms this.  

To the topic of the thread: for the campaign, I found that the Scimitar worked incredibly well at spreading Inferno ammo explosions.  It has a longer effective range than the Katana or Disciple and it's got the fastest fire rate of the basic shotguns.  Its also very light, letting you carry a secondary weapon for armor punch like the Carnifex or Paladin.  

I found that most of my damage was being done by Charge, Nova and fire explosions.  The shotgun is just there for stagger and spreading some fire.  

[ashwind]

Omega-202 wrote...

ashwind wrote...

I have tested mainly with Claymore, Disciple, Scimitar, Katana and Graal. The Shredder always does superior damage to armored units like Harvester, Brute, Revenger, unshielded Atlas, unbarried Banshees.

The GPS, Graal, Kishock etc. all do full damage to armor no matter what.  If you claim otherwise its just in your head. Its been confirmed multiple times by in game testing and the data that's been pulled from the .ini files confirms this.  

You are right. The Graal does need an average of 9 shots to kill Atlas after it is stripped from its Shield regardless of Barrel or Shredder mod... 

Interesting... it is as if the Graal totally ignores the Shredder's reduce 40% damage penalty as well because if it were simply doing 100% damage to armored units at all times, and the Barrel Mod should have been superior due to 25% extra damage but after killing 6 Atlas each with both Mods applied individually... they appear to be the same.. or maybe the 25% increase is just too small to be noticed.

If you are running power upgrade vanguards and spam Nova.... why would you even bother with guns 

Modifié par ashwind, 30 avril 2012 - 04:19 .

[Omega-202]

ashwind wrote...



You are right. The Graal does need an average of 9 shots to kill Atlas after it is stripped from its Shield regardless of Barrel or Shredder mod... 

Interesting... it is as if the Graal totally ignores the Shredder's reduce 40% damage penalty as well because if it were simply doing 100% damage to armored units at all times, and the Barrel Mod should have been superior due to 25% extra damage but after killing 6 Atlas each with both Mods applied individually... they appear to be the same.. or maybe the 25% increase is just too small to be noticed.

If you are running power upgrade vanguards and spam Nova.... why would you even bother with guns 

The Graal ignores the Shredder mod completely.  The barrel and choke are what you should be going with for your spike thrower.  The 25% bonus isn't massive, but its the difference between a one-shot kill and a two-shot on some enemies.  Its better than any other option you've got.  What else would you use?  

Also, testing "shots-to-kill" isn't easy with the Graal or GPS because each shot ends up doing slightly different damage because snap shots are not easy to pull off without charging for at least a fraction of a section.  Charging for a fraction of a second will cause you to do a little extra damage than you would have with an instant snap-shot.  Also, shots to kill with those guns is not a great metric anyway.  I usually have to dodge, Charge and Nova between shots and I can be charging up my shot in between certain actions so snap shots aren't all that common anyway.  

[Omega-202]

Oh, and also, armor reduction is not damage reduction, its a flat value. So you're not taking off a percentage off of each shot, you're taking a set number value which is determined by the difficulty level.

I think that the numbers are 15, 25 and 50 in multiplayer for Bronze, Silver and Gold respectively and that no bullet will ever do less than 5 damage. So a bullet that hits armor on Gold that would do 100 damage to health would instead do only 50. A bullet that would do 200 would do 150.

Read this http://social.biowar...7/index/9822648

[ashwind]

Omega-202 wrote...

ashwind wrote...



You are right. The Graal does need an average of 9 shots to kill Atlas after it is stripped from its Shield regardless of Barrel or Shredder mod... 

Interesting... it is as if the Graal totally ignores the Shredder's reduce 40% damage penalty as well because if it were simply doing 100% damage to armored units at all times, and the Barrel Mod should have been superior due to 25% extra damage but after killing 6 Atlas each with both Mods applied individually... they appear to be the same.. or maybe the 25% increase is just too small to be noticed.

If you are running power upgrade vanguards and spam Nova.... why would you even bother with guns 

The Graal ignores the Shredder mod completely.  The barrel and choke are what you should be going with for your spike thrower.  The 25% bonus isn't massive, but its the difference between a one-shot kill and a two-shot on some enemies.  Its better than any other option you've got.  What else would you use?  

Also, testing "shots-to-kill" isn't easy with the Graal or GPS because each shot ends up doing slightly different damage because snap shots are not easy to pull off without charging for at least a fraction of a section.  Charging for a fraction of a second will cause you to do a little extra damage than you would have with an instant snap-shot.  Also, shots to kill with those guns is not a great metric anyway.  I usually have to dodge, Charge and Nova between shots and I can be charging up my shot in between certain actions so snap shots aren't all that common anyway.  

I tested them shooting behind cover without using Charge because my Charge is spec to Weapon Damage and it may yield different results + Charge does damage as well. That is why Cronos station is a nice place to test because there are covers to use for the entire shoot out.

All it matters to me is I hit the mouse button, something dies. I am just not a fan of "charge up" guns. 

[ashwind]

Omega-202 wrote...

Oh, and also, armor reduction is not damage reduction, its a flat value. So you're not taking off a percentage off of each shot, you're taking a set number value which is determined by the difficulty level.

I think that the numbers are 15, 25 and 50 in multiplayer for Bronze, Silver and Gold respectively and that no bullet will ever do less than 5 damage. So a bullet that hits armor on Gold that would do 100 damage to health would instead do only 50. A bullet that would do 200 would do 150.

Read this http://social.biowar...7/index/9822648

Do not care to test on MP because I have neither the Graal nor the Claymore. I only have a stupid GPS I.

In MP, guns matters little to me because it is team work. 

[Omega-202]

Wasn't talking about testing in multiplayer, I was describing the mechanics based on figures I knew. I know the armor damage reductions in MP. I don't know how those correlate to SP. I'd imagine Insanity is the same as Gold, but beyond that I don't know what the armor levels are for other SP difficulties.

It seems like you didn't understand either of my last two posts so I'm just going to leave this discussion for someone else to clear up with you.

[ashwind]

Omega-202 wrote...

Wasn't talking about testing in multiplayer, I was describing the mechanics based on figures I knew. I know the armor damage reductions in MP. I don't know how those correlate to SP. I'd imagine Insanity is the same as Gold, but beyond that I don't know what the armor levels are for other SP difficulties.

It seems like you didn't understand either of my last two posts so I'm just going to leave this discussion for someone else to clear up with you.

For me, numbers do not matter no matter how pretty they look on paper. Different play styles contributes to different experience in SP, different upgrades contributes to different experience. If I can constantly do something with one gun, that is all the truth there is to it until the formula is change.

For example, to understand the awesomeness of the GPS... I would have to play like those who uses the GPS to its maximum potential. But I just do not wait for the gun to charge up, hence I can never experience how great that gun is. Similarly, if your playstyle is power heavy, Charge and Nova, you cant experience the same thing as someone who does not put points into Nova and obviously your armor and power upgrades would lean towards power recharge/damage.

Hence, it is silly to pull a spreadsheet out and show people the "figures/numbers" and say - This is the best gun because the numbers says so. That is all I am saying.

[JaegerBane]

ashwind wrote...
Hence, it is silly to pull a spreadsheet out and show people the "figures/numbers" and say - This is the best gun because the numbers says so. That is all I am saying.

I think the issue is that the above stance basically means that there's no point in discussing which shotgun (or which choice of anything) is best as its no longer a reasoned debate. If what is best depends purely on what you fancy and you freely ignore the hard data then there's no point adovating any choice over the other, as there's no solid reasoning for it.

Coming into a discussion like this and saying 'this shotgun is best because I like the colour/sound etc and I know the stats aren't as good but so what' doesn't really help anyone - presumably if the OP was willing to just pick a shotty he liked the look of then he wouldn't have needed to create a thread to discuss them.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 30 avril 2012 - 06:17 .

[ashwind]

JaegerBane wrote...

ashwind wrote...
Hence, it is silly to pull a spreadsheet out and show people the "figures/numbers" and say - This is the best gun because the numbers says so. That is all I am saying.

I think the issue is that the above stance basically means that there's no point in discussing which shotgun (or which choice of anything) is best as its no longer a reasoned debate. If what is best depends purely on what you fancy and you freely ignore the hard data then there's no point adovating any choice over the other, as there's no solid reasoning for it.

Coming into a discussion like this and saying 'this shotgun is best because I like the colour/sound etc and I know the stats aren't as good but so what' doesn't really help anyone - presumably if the OP was willing to just pick a shotty he liked the look of then he wouldn't have needed to create a thread to discuss them.

Nope. This becomes a more meaningful discussion of "Which Shotgun Is Best For OP's Playstyle"

Example:
Playstyle = Do not like to Charge Guns. GPS and Graal wont be the "best"
Playstyle = Like to use power as often as possible. Claymore not recommended.
Playstyle = Like to use power and shoot things... like to be versatile, like to carry more weapons for diversity, etc. "Best" guns differs.

When people are asking which is the best shotgun, how they like to play that character matters. How you play and how you experience the gun matters.

Throwing numbers out and point to this and say this is the best is not a discussion. It is basically saying - based on these numbers therefore the best gun is... blah blah.

And yes, sometimes people pick a gun base on how it looks. Some people like me wont hold an ugly looking gun just because the numbers say so. We are organics and not synthetics 

[goofyomnivore]

Overall I think the GPS is the best. The only thing it really doesn't do well is ammo powers. You can charge or not charge it and do just fine. It can be used at any range, and has seeking projectile shots. It has a moderate clip size, in 5. It has modest weight. I really can't think of a weakness for it outside of ammo powers not being utilized efficiently with it, but ammo powers aren't a big deal anyways outside of special builds/circumstances.

But it is a single player game, and just use whatever is fun. Min-maxing is pointless in ME3 since the game is quite easy.

[Kronner]

strive wrote...

Overall I think the GPS is the best. The only thing it really doesn't do well is ammo powers. You can charge or not charge it and do just fine. It can be used at any range, and has seeking projectile shots. It has a moderate clip size, in 5. It has modest weight. I really can't think of a weakness for it outside of ammo powers not being utilized efficiently with it, but ammo powers aren't a big deal anyways outside of special builds/circumstances.

But it is a single player game, and just use whatever is fun. Min-maxing is pointless in ME3 since the game is quite easy.

GPS is pretty bad at taking down tough enemies. This is very apparent in MP, not so much in SP as there is not enough of big enemies in the campaign :/

[Predi1988]

Disciple: realitvely good damage, and light as hell. You can charge every 3 seconds

[Omega-202]

Kronner wrote...

GPS is pretty bad at taking down tough enemies. This is very apparent in MP, not so much in SP as there is not enough of big enemies in the campaign :/

Agreed.  The only way that I've been able to effectively use the GPS against hard targets is with the Geth Infiltrator.  Any other set-up with it in SP or MP seems to just plink away at Atlases and Banshees.

Honestly, in campaign, hard targets should be taken down with combos anyway.  Dark Channel-Warp-Charge-Nova-Nova + Lift Grenades and watch as everything melts.  You can do a ridiculous amount of damage like that without even worrying about what weapon you're carrying.  

[Kronner]

Omega-202 wrote...
Honestly, in campaign, hard targets should be taken down with combos anyway.  Dark Channel-Warp-Charge-Nova-Nova + Lift Grenades and watch as everything melts.  You can do a ridiculous amount of damage like that without even worrying about what weapon you're carrying.  

I know that is the most effective way, but I do enjoy weapons much more than power combos/spam. SP is a joke difficulty-wise though, so it does not matter that much. I got bored of MP, but when I played I switched weapons quite often and adjusted my playstyle as required (i.e. if the team already had a trash killing specialist, I took a heavy weapon..and vice versa).