159 réponses à ce sujet

[Galad22]

HarlequinDream wrote...


I believe he did explain.

Pretty much, when the marriage takes place, the ruling party decides how much power to give their spouce.

Cailin chose to make Anora queen, to treat her as an equal. It's perogative, then, to tell you just how much power you have. She chooses to keep you in a position lower than herself.

Yes and that would make sense even if Alistair would decide to make female noble into queen, but for some weird reason female noble ends up as a princess consort as well.

[The Angry One]

HarlequinDream wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

XOGHunter246 wrote...
I hate anora and was wondering if a male noble can be king alone without her? 

You can't be a King, period. What you are is a Prince, married to a Queen.

Do explain to me how a daughter of a commoner who is Queen by marriage to a dead man has more of a claim to the throne than a Cousland.
That isn't sarcasm, I really want to know.

I believe he did explain.

Pretty much, when the marriage takes place, the ruling party decides how much power to give their spouce.

Cailin chose to make Anora queen, to treat her as an equal. It's perogative, then, to tell you just how much power you have. She chooses to keep you in a position lower than herself.

Point is she shouldn't have that position over one with a stronger claim over hers.
Ferelden must have some very strange rules on heredity.

[HarlequinDream]

Galad22 wrote...

HarlequinDream wrote...


I believe he did explain.

Pretty much, when the marriage takes place, the ruling party decides how much power to give their spouce.

Cailin chose to make Anora queen, to treat her as an equal. It's perogative, then, to tell you just how much power you have. She chooses to keep you in a position lower than herself.

Yes and that would make sense even if Alistair would decide to make female noble into queen, but for some weird reason female noble ends up as a princess consort as well.

I didn't read the epilgoues as closely as I should have, but Alistair addressed my female noble in it as "my future wife and your future queen," so.

[XOGHunter246]

I agree with angry one has point

[Galad22]

HarlequinDream wrote...

I didn't read the epilgoues as closely as I should have, but Alistair addressed my female noble in it as "my future wife and your future queen," so.

Yes mine too, but epilogue card spoke of princess consort, which made me really cranky.

[XOGHunter246]

this is sexism

[037686]

I suspect the "Princess Consort" ending is more to do with Anora's status than anything else. You cannot have two Queens at once, and Anora remains the Queen until something is done to strip her of that title.



Insofar as game events are concerned, Alistair simply imprisons her in the tower, since she refuses to renounce her claim. Until such a time as she is executed/stripped of her title politically, I would contend that should would retain her Queen title. This would result in the Cousland daughter being known as the Princess Consort until the Queen title is freed up.



For example, Catherine of Aragon lost her Queen status (technically due to the death of Arthur, Prince of Wales), becoming the Dowager Princess of Wales. This was due to Henry VIII annuling their marriage, and denying that it had ever been valid.



There was a similar situation with the current British Royal family - Queen Elizabeth II's mother became The Queen Mother, on the death of her husband, in order to free up her previous title of Queen Consort. Queen Mother is a title specifically used to refer to a former Queen Consort whose husband died, and whose son/daughter is now the reigning monarch. OF course, the Queen Mother died a number of years ago now, but the example is a good one.



My best guess is that Princess Consort is merely a legal formality until Anora is resolved.

[The Angry One]

Technically speaking Alistair could annul Anora's marriage based on the fact that she's the daughter of a commoner (despite Loghain's upgrade to noble and marriage to a noble, many still regard Anora as a commoner herself) and that she's barren (she may or may not be, but the rumors of that are around and the fact remains she produced no heir).



That or just kill her. Why keep her around at all? She's the daughter of a deposed tyrant whom she collaborated with, and is a third wheel in the royal family.

[Taleroth]

The Angry One wrote...

Technically speaking Alistair could annul Anora's marriage based on the fact that she's the daughter of a commoner (despite Loghain's upgrade to noble and marriage to a noble, many still regard Anora as a commoner herself) and that she's barren (she may or may not be, but the rumors of that are around and the fact remains she produced no heir).

That or just kill her. Why keep her around at all? She's the daughter of a deposed tyrant whom she collaborated with, and is a third wheel in the royal family.

Number one reason to keep her around is because the Nobles like her.

But they're nobles.  So who cares what they want.

[037686]

The Angry One wrote...

Technically speaking Alistair could annul Anora's marriage based on the fact that she's the daughter of a commoner (despite Loghain's upgrade to noble and marriage to a noble, many still regard Anora as a commoner herself) and that she's barren (she may or may not be, but the rumors of that are around and the fact remains she produced no heir).

That's a fairly bold claim considering that we have little-to-no information on Ferelden's legal system.

It's worth bearing in mind that Ferelden clearly doesn't use a strict monarchy. By this, I mean that the nobles can choose a non-royal ruler if they so wish - although it's fair to say loyalty to the Royal bloodline is relatively strong (as seen by many comments made by Arl Eamon). A strict Monarchy wouldn't give Anora consideration as ruler for even a microsecond - she isn't Royalty, pure and simple.

Note that she IS Nobility, however - she is a Teyrn's daughter, born into that role. The Mac Tir bloodline is newly established as a Ferelden noble house, but the reality is that she is technically decended of an appointed-Noble bloodline (although I'm certain many diehards would consider her "dirty").

[The Angry One]

While the freeholders have the power to decide who rules, and in terms of the law the ruler answers to them, royal and noble bloodlines are still vitally important. Hence Alistair, despite being a bastard raised in a Chantry who's now a Grey Warden is considered at all - because he's the last in the Theirin line.



As for Anora, she's a noble but carries the blood of a commoner all the same. The rumors that go around about how Cailan's death was a curse from the Maker for marrying a commoner show that the popular perception of her is that of a commoner.

Given Loghain's criminal actions somebody with a vested interest could even strip his title posthumously, and thus Anora's noble lineage in one stroke.

[Kepha]

I'm pretty sure that a Queen Consort usually stops being Queen Consort once her spouse dies, her title is tied to his, and generally the wife of the next King is Queen regardless if the previous Queen is still alive.



As a real world example when England's Charles II died, he was suceeded by his brother James II. Charles's wife Catherine became Queen Dowager and and James's wife Mary became Queen Consort.

[037686]

The Angry One wrote...



While the freeholders have the power to decide who rules, and in terms of the law the ruler answers to them, royal and noble bloodlines are still vitally important.

But clearly that isn't all that is important, or Anora wouldn't be a possible outcome as sole ruler. The game endings allow for Anora to be a sole ruler, and thus Royal blood clearly isn't the only consideration. I doubt anyone would contend for a second that is isn't a potent one, however.



I feel that your point alludes more to the contention that Alistair is a better choice (which I agree with, for the record!) than whether or not Anora's claim is actually valid.

[Galad22]

037686 wrote...

But clearly that isn't all that is important, or Anora wouldn't be a possible outcome as sole ruler. The game endings allow for Anora to be a sole ruler, and thus Royal blood clearly isn't the only consideration. I doubt anyone would contend for a second that is isn't a potent one, however.

I feel that your point alludes more to the contention that Alistair is a better choice (which I agree with, for the record!) than whether or not Anora's claim is actually valid.

If Cailan had a brother or sister, who wasn't a bastard crown would have fallen to him/her, or to Cailan's child, never to Anora.

Anora is possibility only because last of Theirin line is a bastard and therefore an odd choice.

Modifié par Galad22, 08 décembre 2009 - 08:14 .

[The Angry One]

Also the other possibilities are somewhat bad too. Eamon's too old, Connor is a mage and Teagan seems to lack any sort of drive to go beyond his current position.
Which is why I again find it odd that a Cousland isn't ever considered for the position on their own.

To be honest I really don't see how Anora gets to rule on her own. If she had produced an heir or were pregnant, fair enough. But otherwise she has nothing. It's part of the reason I hate her, why does this trumped up wench get to make decisions she has no right to in a position of power she shouldn't have?

Modifié par The Angry One, 08 décembre 2009 - 08:22 .

[Taleroth]

Probably because there's only one origin to even mention Cousland's. Which is why the most you can do is marry the king/queen. The variance is still relatively tight.



Besides, who would give the speach to the troops?

[The Angry One]

Taleroth wrote...

Probably because there's only one origin to even mention Cousland's. Which is why the most you can do is marry the king/queen. The variance is still relatively tight.

Besides, who would give the speach to the troops?

Well that's irrelevant since the only origin that shows the Couslands is the only origin where you can marry Anora/Alistair.
Besides they are mentioned in bar/Bodhain rumors as having been massacred in a riot.

[Galad22]

The Angry One wrote...
To be honest I really don't see how Anora gets to rule on her own. If she had produced an heir or were pregnant, fair enough. But otherwise she has nothing. It's part of the reason I hate her, why does this trumped up wench get to make decisions she has no right to in a position of power she shouldn't have?

Yes I agree, she might be noble. But still at the end of the game she is also a daughter of a commoner and a traitor. Which sort of nobles would ever be willing to ruled over by a daughter of a commoner?

Modifié par Galad22, 08 décembre 2009 - 08:30 .

[Taleroth]

The Angry One wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Probably because there's only one origin to even mention Cousland's. Which is why the most you can do is marry the king/queen. The variance is still relatively tight.

Besides, who would give the speach to the troops?

Well that's irrelevant since the only origin that shows the Couslands is the only origin where you can marry Anora/Alistair.
Besides they are mentioned in bar/Bodhain rumors as having been massacred in a riot.

Hardly irrelevant because of what I meant when I said "the variance is still relatively tight."  Regardless of whether or not you marry Anora/Alistair, there's still the same coronation bik of only Anora or Alistair being crowned.  They're still the ones who give a speach to the troops.  They're still the ones to introduce the epilogue.  These facts are true whether or not the the player is a Human Noble.

King Cousland, alone on the throne, would completely redesign how that is handled.

[037686]

Galad22 wrote...

If Cailan had a brother or sister, who wasn't a bastard crown would have fallen to him/her, or to Cailan's child, never to Anora.

Anora is possibility only because last of Theirin line is a bastard and therefore an odd choice.

Although that might be the reality, I don't know that it is automatically true. I'd appreciate a source backing up your point, if you have one - there may have been something I've missed.

My impression has always been that the Nobles can essentially "veto" a new monarch, regardless of who it is.

[Filton_Kingswood]

David Gaider wrote...

XOGHunter246 wrote...
I hate anora and was wondering if a male noble can be king alone without her? 

You can't be a King, period. What you are is a Prince, married to a Queen.

[Monarchical protocol pendant]That's called a Regent.[/Monarchical protocol pedant]

[Galad22]

037686 wrote...

Although that might be the reality, I don't know that it is automatically true. I'd appreciate a source backing up your point, if you have one - there may have been something I've missed.

My impression has always been that the Nobles can essentially "veto" a new monarch, regardless of who it is.

Fereldan throne is essentially Teyrnir or arling, as such succession is handled normally, Nobles can veto what king can do but they can't veto a new king. At least this is how I believe it is working, I have never seen anywhere that nobles could veto new monarch so I'd similarly appreciate source backing up your point.

Read politics of ferelden in codex for my point of view, it doesn't really deny anything you said but it says that Nobles can limit kings power but nothing about them allowing to veto a new king.

[Ulyn]

Kepha wrote...

Ulyn wrote...

I hate to be pedantic as the analogy is entirely to the point, but it was Mary I, rather than her sister, that married Philip II; Elizabeth and Philip did both contemplate marrying after her death, but that obviously worked out pretty badly.  While Mary lived Philip was also quite "kingly" indeed, in formal terms; co-regnant King of England and King or (Or Lord, muddy on the pre-elizabethan setup) of Ireland, by Mary's own choice.

I think the Elizabeth and Philip people are refering to in this thread is the Current Queen and her Prince Consort.

*facepalm* of course.  Sorry, the Philip II marriage was also quite relevant, though.  Basically, if we take English monarchical history as a loose guide for Fereldan, there were two attempted co-monarch marriages; that of Mary I (Bloody Mary) and Philip II of Spain, and that of Mary II (the protestant Stuart daughter of James II) to William III (also Prince of Orange and Stadtholder of the Netherlands).  In the first case, it didn't work because Phillip was busy elsewhere and Mary's political program (including Philip's being a true king of England) weren't well realized; in the second case, William and Mary ruled together, the only such case in 1180 years of English monarchy.  (Although of course, by definition they were diarchs.)  That's over 7 queens, counting Mathilda and excluding Jane, and 50-odd Kings, depending on who one counts as legitimate.  

At any rate, if the monarchical situation at the end of DA:O had arisen in pre-renaissance England, it seems to be the outcome would have been entirely up in the air.  Nobody's running around with any real trump cards.  I don't recall reading anything about Anora's mother, but her father was certainly far more "upjumped" than any Tudor (Henry VII's family tree was little unimpressive compared to many contemporaries.)   So everyone's relying on alliances within the nobility, whatever military forces they have, and their reputations.  

It isn't crystal clear which people in your political alliance answered to Arl Eamon and which to you; but he does withdraw from the scene in some end-texts, suggesting he may not be that ambitious.


 

[Valmy]

Suprez30 wrote...

Why would you want to become a KING anyway?BEURK.

Because it's good to be the King.

[Kenshen]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

ellisDwilder wrote...

LOL, deserve some answers..... the stories not over yet man!

We won't see the PC of DAO in the next DA game.....that much is sure thing....and I doubt they'll make DLC that only pertains to one choice in one origin and nobody else can play. With that said they should just tell us what the fill-in story is.

Well you can answer this question for yourself.  Do you see yourself working with Anora for the betterment of the land and its people or would you want all the power for yourself and plot to kill her off?  Least that is how I viewed that ending.