159 réponses à ce sujet

[Valfreyja]

Valmy wrote...

Suprez30 wrote...

Why would you want to become a KING anyway?BEURK.

Because it's good to be the King.

But you'd be stuck doing all that paperwork!

[tmp7704]

The Angry One wrote...

As for Anora, she's a noble but carries the blood of a commoner all the same.

So does Alistair when you think of it, his mother being but a serving maid and all.

[tmp7704]

Galad22 wrote...

Fereldan throne is essentially Teyrnir or arling, as such succession is handled normally, Nobles can veto what king can do but they can't veto a new king. At least this is how I believe it is working, I have never seen anywhere that nobles could veto new monarch so I'd similarly appreciate source backing up your point.

Read politics of ferelden in codex for my point of view, it doesn't really deny anything you said but it says that Nobles can limit kings power but nothing about them allowing to veto a new king.

From the background information it would appear the nobles have pretty much the final say whether a candidate for king actually becomes one:

"However, even the king’s power must come from the banns. This is especially evident during the Landsmeet, an annual council for which the nobles of Ferelden gather. It has been held for almost three thousand years with only a few interruptions for Blights and invasions. The sight of a king asking for, and working to win the support of "lesser" men is a source of constant wonder to foreign ambassadors."

it may appear like an odd system but it's been actually utilized by countries in our own history. Poland being a notable example.

Modifié par tmp7704, 09 décembre 2009 - 12:21 .

[The Angry One]

Taleroth wrote...

King Cousland, alone on the throne, would completely redesign how that is handled.

It'd take a few extra lines at most. Have someone like Eamon or some proxy make the speech if it's so vital.

tmp7704 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

As for Anora, she's a noble but carries the blood of a commoner all the same.

So does Alistair when you think of it, his mother being but a serving maid and all.

The difference is Alistair is of Maric's blood, whereas Anora is the daughter of a commoner (plus criminal/tyrant) and some nondescript noblewoman.

Modifié par The Angry One, 09 décembre 2009 - 12:23 .

[tmp7704]

The Angry One wrote...

The difference is Alistair is of Maric's blood, whereas Anora is the daughter of a commoner (plus criminal/tyrant) and some nondescript noblewoman.

Except Loghain is not a commoner but a noble. Yes, he's been declared one but how do you think Maric's own nobility came to be? The only difference between them is how long ago that happened.

[The Angry One]

tmp7704 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The difference is Alistair is of Maric's blood, whereas Anora is the daughter of a commoner (plus criminal/tyrant) and some nondescript noblewoman.

Except Loghain is not a commoner but a noble. Yes, he's been declared one but how do you think Maric's own nobility came to be? The only difference between them is how long ago that happened.

Maric is descended from Calenhad.
Loghain is a dirt farmer who got upgraded by Maric. Whether you think it right or not, he is regarded as a commoner.

[tmp7704]

The Angry One wrote...

Maric is descended from Calenhad.
Loghain is a dirt farmer who got upgraded by Maric. Whether you think it right or not, he is regarded as a commoner.

And Calenhad's nobility comes from..?

Every "noble lineage" comes from commoner roots. It's like rule 34, no exceptions.

[The Angry One]

tmp7704 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Maric is descended from Calenhad.
Loghain is a dirt farmer who got upgraded by Maric. Whether you think it right or not, he is regarded as a commoner.

And Calenhad's nobility comes from..?

Every "noble lineage" comes from commoner roots. It's like rule 34, no exceptions.

What's your point? That nobles are hypocrites? Sure they are. And?

[tmp7704]

The Angry One wrote...

What's your point? That nobles are hypocrites? Sure they are. And?

No, my point is the hypocrisy that's harping on this "commoner" thing when it comes to Loghain/Anora while oddly enough the nobles in actual game never seem to do it. It's like they don't really share this particular viewpoint.

[The Angry One]

tmp7704 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

What's your point? That nobles are hypocrites? Sure they are. And?

No, my point is the hypocrisy that's harping on this "commoner" thing when it comes to Loghain/Anora while oddly enough the nobles in actual game never seem to do it. It's like they don't really share this particular viewpoint.

Er... why do you think the Bannorn were outraged that Loghain became Regent? Because he was a commoner.
If you listen to the rumors in game you get a fair picture of it, right down to the rumors that peg Anora as a commoner too.

No you may say "oh rumors are innaccurate", but it's a gauge of what the common people think, and if the common people think Loghain is a commoner and his position as regent is inappropriate what in the hell do you think the nobles would think?
To say nothing of the fact that again, Alistair's ONLY qualification for becoming King is Maric's bloodline, so you can't say noble blood isn't important to them.

[tmp7704]

The Angry One wrote...

Er... why do you think the Bannorn were outraged that Loghain became Regent? Because he was a commoner.

That's conjecture. The only actual objection posed to Loghain when he does his speech after taking over concerns his questionably lucky withdrawal from Ostagar. Why do you think they question him about that rather than his lineage if it's the lineage that's supposed to be the problem?

edit: Oh and regarding Alistair's noble blood being his only claim, you can see that despite this claim of his the nobles consider him an equally valid candidate as the supposed "commoner's daughter" Anora. Either the blood isn't as important to them as you make it to be, or they consider Anora's heritage to be of equal value at this point and this "commoner" talk has no relation to views held in the game.

Modifié par tmp7704, 09 décembre 2009 - 01:05 .

[apantoliani]

I'd put Alistair and Anora at having relatively equal shots at the Landsmeet, just based off of the vibe I get when I get there.



Anora, daughter of a war hero (and traitor), a noble despite how long the Mac Tir's have been one, it's still technically a noble, and widow to the King who did make her Queen for whatever reason. Has supposedly been ruling Ferelden for Cailan for the last five years. May or may not be barren, five years is a long time to not get knocked up when I assume they were trying.



Alistair, son of the king, only heir to the throne left that anyone knows of. Yes, his mother was a commoner, but once you get past the "son of the king" part, it doesn't seem to matter anymore, especially since families seem heavily father-lineage oriented. Has a life sentence of ~30 years assuming he doesn't die from other means, can produce an heir (not known at Landsmeet however, hehe) for sure with magic, unknown ( to me anyway) otherwise.



Couslands, while being next to the royal family in rank, would have a hard time beating both of those two for who should get the crown. Maybe if Alistair was out of the picture (and not just because you removed him from it, lol) it would still be a rough contest with Anora, who is already Queen. But hey, wars have been fought over less. Probably would have been to war with Anora and Alistair if it wasn't for those pesky darkspawn. Though if it wasn't for the darkspawn, Alistair wouldn't give two ****s about being king... Cailan wouldn't have died (at Ostagar anyway)...



In the end, regardless of whom the PC Cousland marries, it's just a title and Anora and Alistair are both pushovers. Everyone on this board knows who is running the show in those relationships.



In my head, my PC offered Anora to go back to Gwaren as Teyrna if she renounces and pledges fealty to Alistair, if not she gets an accidental trip down the tower stairs, maybe out the window. Either way, she isn't paying rent and I have better things to worry about than a disposed Queen plotting up in the tower. Or maybe get her executed as a birthday present. Hmmm...



Right. Going to bed now.

[The Angry One]

Anora and Alistair have "equal claim" because Anora is settled in (don't rock the boat crowd) and Alistair is a bastard.

My point is though that Alistair wouldn't have a claim at all if not for his blood.

[XOGHunter246]

It all hypocritical the rules only apply for certain people others don't have to play by same ruling when in reality they should.

[Svest]

The claim to the throne through either blood or marriage is really just for appearances.  While appearances are very important to some, in the end the landsmeet does not vote for either Anora or Alistair.  They vote for Loghain or the Warden.  That is who they are giving the real power to. 

[Svest]

XOGHunter246 wrote...

It all hypocritical the rules only apply for certain people others don't have to play by same ruling when in reality they should.

In a feudal system the rules only apply to anyone who isn't powerful enough to say "they don't apply to me."  The only rules you have to follow are those imposed on you by someone/some group more powerful than you are.  That's how the whole concept of nobility started in the first place.

[Galad22]

tmp7704 wrote...
From the background information it would appear the nobles have pretty much the final say whether a candidate for king actually becomes one:

"However, even the king’s power must come from the banns. This is especially evident during the Landsmeet, an annual council for which the nobles of Ferelden gather. It has been held for almost three thousand years with only a few interruptions for Blights and invasions. The sight of a king asking for, and working to win the support of "lesser" men is a source of constant wonder to foreign ambassadors."

it may appear like an odd system but it's been actually utilized by countries in our own history. Poland being a notable example.

It doesn't say anything here that Nobles can block a new king. Limit kings power sure, and not being servants to king every whim, sure. But not block a new king.

You really think that Theirin line would have lasted four hundred years if nobles could block any new king they didn't happen to like? Does not seem very likely now does it?

You are mistaking dwarfen assembly for ferelden lansmeet. Dwarfen assembly actually works as you say.

[Ulicus]

You know, it's actually pretty surprising that none of the other noble families have Therin blood. I can't imagine that each Therin monarch had only one child and, since we know that the Therin line ruled uninterrupted even *with* the wars for succession that occasionally went on (between Sophia Dryden and the tyrant boy-king, for example), one would assume that plenty of the Therin "spares" along the way would have married into the other noble families.



I suppose Orlais might have made killing each and every descendant of Calenhad a priority, leaving only Moira and Maric....

[Asante81]

Angry One, have I already told you that I love you?

Everytime I'm reading on one of those threads I think about posting my opinions and decide against it because you've already posted what I wanted to write...



And concerning that topic: let's face it; the strongest argument for the way they implemented it is: gamedesign. They would have needed to elaborate the whole becoming king/queen more. Would have involved more decisions to make, more persuasion, more story and whatever. It would have become a game about becoming king or queen. I guess... *shrugs*

They wanted the main focus on Anora and/or Alistair for regents of Ferelden. Giving the PC the chance to become the consort was something like a little bonus for one of the origin stories. Think about it. Making the PC's of one origin story the RULER of Ferelden would have been terribly unfair towards the other origin stories. So, the noble PC can become "consort" of the ruler, nothing more.

I'm not perfectly happy about that matter either and think it's not as logical as I wanted it to be, but everything else would have been unrealistic from a gamedesign view, except you have only one origin story revolving around become king or queen.

[tmp7704]

Galad22 wrote...

It doesn't say anything here that Nobles can block a new king. Limit kings power sure, and not being servants to king every whim, sure. But not block a new king.

If the hopeful king needs support from the landholders in order to be considered king then that's effectively power to veto his choice.

The king is just a teyrn of Ferelden -- the nobles pledge their loyalty to him but they still maintain control over their own lands. If some of them chose not to support a candidate it'd basically lead to secession and break up of the country in its current form.

Sure, if the king is extremely power hungry and wants the crown at the cost of country breaking up he can probably do that and rule over just part of the domain this way. Question would be though if he's then "king of Ferelden" in anything other than just title, when the Ferelden is no more.

[Cyberpunk]

apantoliani wrote...

I'd put Alistair and Anora at having relatively equal shots at the Landsmeet, just based off of the vibe I get when I get there.

Anora, daughter of a war hero (and traitor), a noble despite how long the Mac Tir's have been one, it's still technically a noble, and widow to the King who did make her Queen for whatever reason. Has supposedly been ruling Ferelden for Cailan for the last five years. May or may not be barren, five years is a long time to not get knocked up when I assume they were trying.

Alistair, son of the king, only heir to the throne left that anyone knows of. Yes, his mother was a commoner, but once you get past the "son of the king" part, it doesn't seem to matter anymore, especially since families seem heavily father-lineage oriented. Has a life sentence of ~30 years assuming he doesn't die from other means, can produce an heir (not known at Landsmeet however, hehe) for sure with magic, unknown ( to me anyway) otherwise.

Couslands, while being next to the royal family in rank, would have a hard time beating both of those two for who should get the crown. Maybe if Alistair was out of the picture (and not just because you removed him from it, lol) it would still be a rough contest with Anora, who is already Queen. But hey, wars have been fought over less. Probably would have been to war with Anora and Alistair if it wasn't for those pesky darkspawn. Though if it wasn't for the darkspawn, Alistair wouldn't give two ****s about being king... Cailan wouldn't have died (at Ostagar anyway)...

In the end, regardless of whom the PC Cousland marries, it's just a title and Anora and Alistair are both pushovers. Everyone on this board knows who is running the show in those relationships.

In my head, my PC offered Anora to go back to Gwaren as Teyrna if she renounces and pledges fealty to Alistair, if not she gets an accidental trip down the tower stairs, maybe out the window. Either way, she isn't paying rent and I have better things to worry about than a disposed Queen plotting up in the tower. Or maybe get her executed as a birthday present. Hmmm...

Right. Going to bed now.

Zevran makes your Queen-spouse very sick:sick::sick:

[Taleroth]

Asante81 wrote...

Angry One, have I already told you that I love you?

I saw it first!  I mean... TAO is a terrible person.  I hate it.  <.<

And concerning that topic: let's face it; the strongest argument for the way they implemented it is: gamedesign. They would have needed to elaborate the whole becoming king/queen more. Would have involved more decisions to make, more persuasion, more story and whatever. It would have become a game about becoming king or queen. I guess... *shrugs*

*Arm pump*  That's what I was arguing!  A vast number of plot points wittle down to this fact.  It's surprisingly hard to understand, not a criticism of those who don't.  Game design limits options, time limits options, lots of things.  It's also why we can't gut Alistair in the camp or rush to Jory's defense.

Modifié par Taleroth, 09 décembre 2009 - 04:35 .

[tmp7704]

Taleroth wrote...

It's also why we can't gut Alistair in the camp

You're just going to give Skellimancer more ideas...

[Taleroth]

tmp7704 wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

It's also why we can't gut Alistair in the camp

You're just going to give Skellimancer more ideas...

I've tried to get Skellimancer to behead Duncan for me, but no go.

[ScotGaymer]

David Gaider wrote...
Consider the case of Queen Elizabeth of the English throne. She is married to Philip -- but does that make him the King? No, it makes him the Prince-Consort as she is the ruling Queen. It's possible that your character may one day become a proper King or Queen, but as of the Landsmeet the distinction is clear.

Okay i am a couple of pages late but isnt Bioware a Canadian company? Based in Canada? Therefore I assume its staff are Canadian. Are you Canadian?

If so you really need to learn about your own Monarchy.

Firstly she is Queen of Britain not England - there is no English crown. Hasnt been since the Act of Union 1707 when both the crowns of England and Scotland were dissolved along with the parliaments and they were united into a single Greater British crown.
Calling her the Queen of England is a huge insult to Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. Speaking as a Scotsman i can tell you how insanely infuriating it is when ignorant folk refer to Britain as England.

Secondly Prince Phillip's official title is the Duke of Edinburgh. He didnt become King because he wasnt a royal, wasnt a Windsor. Its how the British Monarchy has worked since Queen Victorias age; the King marries a Queen but the Queen does not marry a King. Because the Queen would take her husbands name; therefore would no longer be a Windsor, thus no longer royal. Its a bit convoluted but there you go.

If you are following the British model for a monarchy then Anora it makes sense that she becomes Queen but her next husband does not become King.
If its Alistair then he only becomes King on the strength of his claim to the throne as King Maric's bastard son. Not by marriage to the Queen; thus if you as a Cousland marry her you dont become "King" because Bioware seem to be using the British model of monarchy complete with noble parliament/landsmeet.