130 réponses à ce sujet

[Legion64]

I used Garrus and Liara throughout my game. Very good combo and Garrus actually got a lot of kills. Garrus with a Widow, plus armor-piercing rounds and mods will give Garrus and advantage. He can kill a Brute in 1 to 3 hits. Plus his tech skills make him the best squadmate.

Liara I use her as my power squadmate. Any time I get in trouble, I use her to spam her biotics everywhere. Her biotics come good in any situation.

Other squadmates, like James come in handy at times. James is a nice powerhouse character and his Carnage comes in handy when putting major damage on the big guys.

[Amioran]

abaris wrote...
You're right about Fallout 3 but NVs follower AI is at least on par with ME3.

That says it all given the point of the thread

(ME3 is surely not an example of good AI).

[abaris]

gigliani60 wrote...

I saw a point further up to which you replied, 'your ignorance is not amusing' when he made a completely valid point which is the answer to all your problems. Just command Vega, using left or right on the d-pad, or whatever buttons you use on the pc, into a group of enemies, and he will do well. I used similar tactics with Garrus. Stop telling everyone to read your original post properly when you dont take notice of peoples replies

That only works for a moment. You can spam the C command to call them to you, but seconds later you get shot from behind because they decided somewhere else is a nicer place to be.

[Han Shot First]

Of course the squadmates aren't as much as a help on Insanity.

On Insanity the game basically cheats and gives your opponents added advantages to make the gameplay more difficult for the player. Squadmates less useful in a game mode where the game is basically cheating to make gameplay more difficult? I'm shocked!

Try playing on Normal if you want your squadmates to be more useful. In that mode the mobs aren't given extra buffs just to make gameplay more difficult. The insanity mode is just there for the achievement. Play normal for the 'story,' and insanity for the achievement.

[fchopin]

BlueDemonX wrote...

It really is annoying when they just take cover somewhere and let you do all the work

Yes it is very stupid when they just hide and do nothing, i remember watching them one time because i had no idea where they were and after i found them i said wtf are you doing hiding when you should be protecting me. It was comic.

[SalsaDMA]

Amioran wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
I think it's more accurate to say that DA:O is built around letting the player pick whichever method of party control he wants. The only thing a player really needs to do for himself is control placement of friendly-fire AoE spells, and that's only on the higher difficulty levels. That's the only thing I ever do, anyway.

Exactly. The point is that the gameplay (as design of abilties, balance of encounters etc.) are all built around this concept (i.e. of controlling all the party if you want).

In a party based cRPG the party is, in fact, a fundamental aspect of the gameplay (the name says it already) so it is obvious that party AI is done well, but the reason is not only for how the AI is implemented (that in truth is a minor part, in fact DA:O was not so very good at it in many instances), it has to do more with all the context in the gameplay and how it is designed.

I would actually consider ME series as being no less partybased than DA:O.

You have the warden and some companions, versus Shepard and some companions.
Same deal.
Yes, you CAN take more control over companions in DA:O than in ME, but that is purely a design choice by the devs (in early ME you could control companions as well, but they shifted away from it before release). Shepards companions are just as integral to the gameplay as the wardens companions are, and the few times you don't have access to companions the gameflow/balance breaks apart.

Sure, I may not always have been happy with the AI of DA:O companions, but at least I could manually work around the shortcommings that miught appear every now and then there. In the ME series, the weak AI just glares in your eyes.

[tholloway93]

Seifer006 wrote...

N7 Spectre525 wrote...

I just finished the game again and I must say the AI actually got worse since ME2. Half the time during the priority earth mission I couldnt even find Kaiden or Liara. It felt like I was fighting alone.

especially against that last part, where you're defending the FOB Missles......yeah fighting all by myself there

after 3 times i stopped reviving my teammates. i could survive banshees but they couldn't 

[abaris]

fchopin wrote...

Yes it is very stupid when they just hide and do nothing, i remember watching them one time because i had no idea where they were and after i found them i said wtf are you doing hiding when you should be protecting me. It was comic.

It's even stupider when the fire salvos into a wall. They did that in ME1 and they're still doing it now since they're obviously not bright enough to see obstacles.

SalsaDMA wrote...

Yes, you CAN take more control over
companions in DA:O than in ME, but that is purely a design choice by the
devs (in early ME you could control companions as well, but they
shifted away from it before release).

Except in DAO you could program the strategy of your party members. If you wanted them to guard a certain character, they mostly followed that command.

Modifié par abaris, 29 avril 2012 - 07:19 .

[thepiebaker]

i found teammates to be really useful at times in 1 and 2 but not 3... for 3 i can say that the reason probably is that my skills have been developed and im moving to the next room before my squad can get in cover, even on insanity (i run with either a soldier or vanguard)

early into ME2 i went with garrus and another sniping class and let them go to town, was really helpful on my first insanity run... in ME1 i did pretty much the same... except i equipped two scramrail attatchments and explosive rounds on their snipers and mine... nothing stood a chance

[Amioran]

SalsaDMA wrote...
I would actually consider ME series as being no less partybased than DA:O.

You have the warden and some companions, versus Shepard and some companions.
Same deal.

No. A party based cRPG is an rpg where you control all the party (or you can) and it is not focused primarily on anyone of them. While there's a protagonist it is such only for the story, not the gameplay.

Every party member has the same predominance of another. For ME this isn't true, at last not in the gameplay aspect.

In turn all the abilities, encounters etc. are based on this aspect.

Every party member is useful and powerful as the others. Their abilities, powers, stats, make them fundamental for all the party to survive. They are not powerful only as bait or to provide you an ability you cannot use, they are powerful in themselves, sometimes even more (depending on the member) than the protagonist.

SalsaDMA wrote...
Shepards companions are just as integral to the gameplay as the wardens companions are, and the few times you don't have access to companions the gameflow/balance breaks apart.

They are important (in the sense you ascribe to the word with what you said) only because of the abilities that you can use on YOURSELF. You see the difference? You never get to control them and you get to use their abilities as if Shepard did use them. This is a great difference. This is the primary aspect of why companions are useful in ME, not for the covering fire (that is really not that important given the half damage they do in confront to you). Another useful thing is as a bait, but these are completely different concepts than why a party is useful on a party based cRPG.

Shepard in the gameplay is much more powerful than the companions. They are not on par with him and never will and their usefulness is based primarily on parameters that have nothing to do with their "power" as a party member. This is a fundamental aspect of all non party based RPGs. While you can have companions, they are not in the same league as the controlled player and they are useful usually for completely different motives than in the other case.

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

Seifer006 wrote...

The squadmates should be there for player to enjoy.
I understand if you're playing on Insanity, that they don't help out as much since it's all about the challenge.


This isn't about me being a bad player. It's about this problem that should have been fixed it's MASS EFFECT 3......not Mass Effect 1...... Bioware you had 5yrs to address this Issue. I'm not happy

Actually in ME1 they were much more useful as they were not nerfed as hell as they are since ME2. But ME has become a pure shooter so teamwork doesn't exist anymore and Squadmates are only cosmetics.

[KyuzoS7]

i guess squadmate AI does not change regardless of difficulty chosen? i find it funny when i give ashley a ****ty sniper rifle she uses it but when i give garrus a good one he uses the assasult rifle instead?

[MrnDpty161]

You know, I think the team members of the DA games are more useful ---- there's been plenty of times where one of my party members saved the skin of the rest of the group by making the kill hit on something.

I would just like to be honest, since the game ends with Shepard dying each time, I don't think the team is that much important. I've used everyone pretty much, even in ME2... and the battles and results, although slightly difficult in certain cases... have all ended up with the same experience.

If they wanted to make teams matter in ME3, then they would have allowed your Shepard to die but the battle could continue with a remaining team-mate to revive you or continue the fight if there wasn't any medigel.

The team is only important for the different plots and story elements to the game, otherwise, their interesting NPC's during the shooting portions of the game.

[Seifer006]

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...

Seifer006 wrote...

Amioran wrote...

Seifer006 wrote...

The squadmates should be there for player to enjoy.
I understand if you're playing on Insanity, that they don't help out as much since it's all about the challenge.


This isn't about me being a bad player. It's about this problem that should have been fixed it's MASS EFFECT 3......not Mass Effect 1...... Bioware you had 5yrs to address this Issue. I'm not happy

What you say is true, but sadly I understand why the things are as they are.

Making the AI of squadmates and their usefulness be effective would mean altering probably completely the gameplay to make the encounters balanced. This requires a lot of work.

Just a little example of this: try in coalesced to change the parameter of squadmates' damage from 50% to full 100%. Also without other changes (as their behaviour etc.) you will see immediately that the game becomes a complete joke. Squadmates will clear rooms very fast without you needing to do almost anything at all (or very little). This is because there are some factors that the AI is very good at, as targeting, not missing, illimitate ammo etc. etc.

Really it would mean changing the gameplay very severly and also change some parameters (as infinite ammo for squadmates) that could cause trouble depending on how they execute them. They would have also to balance weapons accordingly (so that they aren't too powerful on squadmates) etc. A lot of work.

I think Bioware just considered the pros and cons and decided to leave it at that for the trilogy given the amount of work it would require to balance the thing properly. Maybe in the future they will do this.

Yeah. You're right. I wish things could be more simple you  know. Back in ME2 - I used Grunt a lot. He was so reliable. Especially my Insanity playthroughs. I could count on him staying alive. He was a Tank!

Zaeed also. He was great.

I remember Garrus.........he was awful as a squadmate. He kept dying. He was at the Sniper Rife.......but he was always dead so purpose was pointless.

There's many issues.Thanks for sharing and giving a concise answer. I appreciate it.

In that case I can't believe you liked Grunt, he's the worst of the lot. He's a freakin moron, charging into Shepard, Explosives, dancing Scions etc.

LOL! it's what krogans are good at. They're not your "average infiltrator"

[Seifer006]

gigliani60 wrote...

I saw a point further up to which you replied, 'your ignorance is not amusing' when he made a completely valid point which is the answer to all your problems. Just command Vega, using left or right on the d-pad, or whatever buttons you use on the pc, into a group of enemies, and he will do well. I used similar tactics with Garrus. Stop telling everyone to read your original post properly when you dont take notice of peoples replies

seriously....

let me give you a heads up. You said "command Vega, using the left or right on the D-pad"

 IT DOESN'T WORK! WHY DID I POST THIS TOPIC! BECAUSE IT'S A PROBLEM!

it's  a problem. If I command (since I'm Commander Shepard) and the squads AI don't follow through on those commands. What am I supposed to do?

so in your infinite wisdom. You simply didn't either:

1. understand my post
2. or you simply want to argue and don't care about this major issue.

[Father_Jerusalem]

KyuzoS7 wrote...

i guess squadmate AI does not change regardless of difficulty chosen? i find it funny when i give ashley a ****ty sniper rifle she uses it but when i give garrus a good one he uses the assasult rifle instead?

Give Ashley the Raptor, use Marksman, watch her turn into a head-shotting mingun of death.

[Seifer006]

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

What would you rather? COD?

I've finished full levels just relying on my squadmates while I coward in cover.

and you must be playing on Story mode. Since that's the easiest difficulty level.

I'm playing on Normal - Veteran.  Where you would like your squad to follow through on Commands you simply give them.

[Sidney]

MrnDpty161 wrote...

You know, I think the team members of the DA games are more useful ---- there's been plenty of times where one of my party members saved the skin of the rest of the group by making the kill hit on something.

The control you have in dAO is agreater so I think you feel their presence more because you know exactly what they are doing.

The squaddies in ME3 are not better or worse than the second game - they were total trash in 1 but the whole combat system sucked so it is hard to say if that was the squaddies or just the game. They used powers, fired off weapons. I think it is easier to feel their presence if there is a sniper rifle because you hear the crack and see a dead thing. Most other weapons just beldn into the background.

My main issue with the squaddies was that as you worked through a level they'll get "lost" and ladders and basically stop following you.

[RocketManSR2]

Imperium Alpha wrote...

Liara > Shepard > All.

This. Rapid fire warp bombing FTW

[Oldbones2]

They're very useful if you play an active class. Vanguard or Soldier.


If you play more support, well then yeah, they still aren't very helpful.

[Gallimatia]

Squadmates in ME3 can beat the game on insanity without Shepard if you help them with their powers. They have 50 % hidden damage resistance or so (I'm guessing they take the same damage on all difficulties with absurd results on insanity, not dieing to grenades and what not). More importantly enemies with regular weapons almost completely refuse to shoot at them. As a result Liara has better survivability in ME3 than Grunt did in ME2. Only banshees, brutes, husks, harvesters, ravagers, phantoms, and turrets can kill squadmates. In most fights they are free to run amok.

To get the most out of their weapons you have to push them forward because else they will stay in cover (which they don't need because of the reasons stated above). Now when you issue a move command they don't ignore it. It may seem like it because they take the move commands to mean "casually stroll in this direction while stopping to shoot at anything that crosses my path and taking in the sights" not "run there". In ME2 this was bad because you were probably telling them to run to a new cover point. In ME3 this is good because given that they are immortal you just want them to shoot as much as possible.

That said they underuse their powers if left to their own devices. People are running around with shields and they don't overload. Not sure why that is.

[DiscoDarth]

Companions are nerfed to do 0.3 damage, but if you point a target they will get +200% short time damage buff. Particle rifle\\revenant\\falcon and cryo\\explosive ammo are way to go. or you could always edit coalesced. Good point OP, companions must be badass too.

Modifié par DiscoDarth, 29 avril 2012 - 08:44 .

[SalsaDMA]

abaris wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Yes it is very stupid when they just hide and do nothing, i remember watching them one time because i had no idea where they were and after i found them i said wtf are you doing hiding when you should be protecting me. It was comic.

It's even stupider when the fire salvos into a wall. They did that in ME1 and they're still doing it now since they're obviously not bright enough to see obstacles.

SalsaDMA wrote...

Yes, you CAN take more control over
companions in DA:O than in ME, but that is purely a design choice by the
devs (in early ME you could control companions as well, but they
shifted away from it before release).

Except in DAO you could program the strategy of your party members. If you wanted them to guard a certain character, they mostly followed that command.

which begs the question: Why didn't they do this in ME series too?

It was a minor stroke of genius to allow this control over your companions behaviour, so it seems odd they didn't take the programming 'blocks' and utilised them as proper object oriented programmers.

[SalsaDMA]

Amioran wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...
I would actually consider ME series as being no less partybased than DA:O.

You have the warden and some companions, versus Shepard and some companions.
Same deal.

No. A party based cRPG is an rpg where you control all the party (or you can) and it is not focused primarily on anyone of them. While there's a protagonist it is such only for the story, not the gameplay.

Every party member has the same predominance of another. For ME this isn't true, at last not in the gameplay aspect.

In turn all the abilities, encounters etc. are based on this aspect.

Every party member is useful and powerful as the others. Their abilities, powers, stats, make them fundamental for all the party to survive. They are not powerful only as bait or to provide you an ability you cannot use, they are powerful in themselves, sometimes even more (depending on the member) than the protagonist.

SalsaDMA wrote...
Shepards companions are just as integral to the gameplay as the wardens companions are, and the few times you don't have access to companions the gameflow/balance breaks apart.

They are important (in the sense you ascribe to the word with what you said) only because of the abilities that you can use on YOURSELF. You see the difference? You never get to control them and you get to use their abilities as if Shepard did use them. This is a great difference. This is the primary aspect of why companions are useful in ME, not for the covering fire (that is really not that important given the half damage they do in confront to you). Another useful thing is as a bait, but these are completely different concepts than why a party is useful on a party based cRPG.

Shepard in the gameplay is much more powerful than the companions. They are not on par with him and never will and their usefulness is based primarily on parameters that have nothing to do with their "power" as a party member. This is a fundamental aspect of all non party based RPGs. While you can have companions, they are not in the same league as the controlled player and they are useful usually for completely different motives than in the other case.

Actually you DO get to control them in ME. The interface to do so is beyond atrocious, though.

They should have taken a page or dozens out of the DA:O game regarding control over companions, imo.

[mmm buddah23]

Use teammates with the revenant machine gun or the scorpion, you will never have to shoot anything. I use ashley and james with the machine gun, and sometimes i get a whole 2 bullets in, its ridiculous. Its all about the setup, and yes, the powers are a bit ridiculous, liara only uses singularity. ..and the others...well they might as well not have powers....so just go with the soldier followers.