259 réponses à ce sujet

[Hexi-decimal]

Taboo-XX wrote...

That's cool bro. Can you defend your opinion on the endings?

I don't have a problem with rational critiques.

Others............

It's an opinion.  The fact that you think he needs to defend what he likes is ****ing ludicrious. 

The fact that he made a post simply to provoke people is likewise.

Modifié par Hexi-decimal, 30 avril 2012 - 10:57 .

[shurikenmanta]

rachellouise wrote...

There is no mob waiting to lynch anyone who says they like the endings.

Are you sure about that? Personally, I've said I'm okay with the endings, and the responses I've got from the majority of people on here are

ZOMG!, Did you even play da games?

You're and Idiot, c u can'tz see that it sux0rs.

IT iz da real ending stoopid

Give me valid reasons for your opinion

etc etc.

Yep.

Hell, I've been interrogated like that and I don't even *like* the endings, this is solely for standing up for those that do or questioning the more hysterical reactions.

Modifié par shurikenmanta, 30 avril 2012 - 11:01 .

[Zolt51]

GiarcYekrub wrote...
I have yet to see a valid argument  against the ending, every complaint I've seen has been inferred by the complainer,  taken in isolation and out of context with the rest of the game which builds to its climax all the way through or by totally unrealistic expectations

Nope, there are a few good ones. Between a third and half of them have at least some kind of point. It's just that none of these is worth making such a fuss over, or dissing the game as a whole, or Bioware.

[GiarcYekrub]

Noelemahc wrote...

The point to this forum is that while people who disliked the endings say they feel alienated, what they don't realize is that they themselves are committing the exact same crime by trying to bully people who do like the ending

Unfortunately, there are as many bullies on the pro-ending side as there are on ours, if not more. But turning this thread into "our bullies are better than yours" isn't my point, my point "sort out your bullies first, then preach about ours". Aight? For myself I say this - I hate bullies in general and try to step in to stop them regardless of their sides.

I've read loads, and not one doesn't fall into one of the three catagories

1.been inferred by the complainer,
2.taken in isolation and out of context
with the rest of the game which builds to its climax all the way through
3.totally unrealistic expectations

Sadly, the same can be said of any pro-endings threads. All explanations offered either by the employee twitters or pro-enders fall into one of the three categories:
1. Information not available in the game (f.e. the fate of the Citadel's inhabitants post-Cronos).
2. Wild speculation based on "this is the only way it could have been" (f.e. any and all arguments on impossibility of conventional warfare trumping Reaper fleet at Earth if you have in excess of 7K EMS).
3. Overlooking or flat-out ignoring any and all outstanding plotholes or unresolved plot threads. (f.e. the contradiction between Starchild's words and everything Sovereign did, f.e. how does HELPING the Geth and Zha'Til destroy their creators - when neither originally wanted to do it - further the Reaper goals of preventing organics being destroyed by synthetics?)

Also, restating your words in the exact same order, but broken down into bullet points does not help get your point across. It only helps show that you have no valid arguments to present. Sorry.

So your upset about the ending because it doesn't resolve the fate of the NPC's that were on the citadel? Didn't really think this was important, myself not surprised it wasn't in the game there was more important things to deal with.

Conventional win? The game enforces the notion that the reapers were an unstopable force for the enitre trilogy, even with a high EMS the best you could hope for is holding earth despite the rest of galaxy getting creamed. To suddenly win via conventional means would be totally game breaking IMO. Some sort of super weapon was always going to be needed.

Circular, Recursive logic to me seem totally plausible for an AI to me

[IUDEX99]

Commander Shepard the Grey Warden wrote...

I like the endings. Now let's see if we can get through this forum without me being told how my children are going to die, I'm the next Hitler, and you're all going to come to my house and burn me alive. (The point to this forum is that while people who disliked the endings say they feel alienated, what they don't realize is that they themselves are committing the exact same crime by trying to bully people who do like the ending.)

While complaining about other people's prejudices you spread yout your own prejudices...
In addition you are using a very provocative title for your thread.

Indeed, I'm not sure if you just did that to proof yourself right (expecting flamewar and attacks towards you - which would be, due to your mentioned method, not really unexpected) or due to which reason ever.

Beside, my experience differs from yours. Compared to other gamer-forums, it's quite civilized here and I never noticed that harsh attacks as you did (or as you expected, or having tried to provoke).

Modifié par IUDEX99, 30 avril 2012 - 11:09 .

[Leem_0001]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

GiarcYekrub wrote...

FOX216BC wrote...
Some people don't understand the difference between complaining and insulting.
And some do not understand the difference between being a loyal fan and being a yes-man.

I have yet to see a valid argument  against the ending, every complaint I've seen has been inferred by the complainer,  taken in isolation and out of context with the rest of the game which builds to its climax all the way through or by totally unrealistic expectations

Than maybe you should start reading, there have been countless valid complaints since the leaks.

I've read loads, and not one doesn't fall into one of the three catagories

1.been inferred by the complainer, 
2.taken in isolation and out of context with the rest of the game which builds to its climax all the way through
3.totally unrealistic expectations

Yeah, sorry, your 3 little points there - they don't make a lot of sense.

You can find them on here or on the web, but prior to release Bioware promised (through intereviews and blogs etc, you can find every one of them for yourself):
* That the choices we made in the previous 2 games would effect the endings of ME3 in drastically different ways.
* We were promised 16 different endings.
* We were promised it would not simply be an A,B,C ending (red, blue, green anyone?)
* We were promised they would not pull a Lost and leave us with more questions than answers.

So that is point 1 - broken promises.

Next up, for a game developer who values story telling above all else, they have broken basic story telling rules by introuducing a new major antagonist (Starchild) in the last 10 minutes of the series. There is a reason this is a basic rule of story telling, it is jarring, and takes the reader/gamer out of the experience.. Read any, ANY, book on the craft of storytelling - I challange you to do that. You will see I am right.

So point 2 - poor storytelling.

Next they used the same endings pretty much and just swapped the colour of the explosions. How can you be okay with this? All three games were building to this point and this is the closure we got, a colour pallet swap?

Point 3 - lazy ending

Then there is the broken lore - Arrival states that if a Relay is destroyed, so is the solar system it is in. That is because of he immense power contained within. So when we are told by Starchild that the relays will be destroyed (no matter the ending), then we have to assume, going on previous lore, that the solar systems will be lost too. There is NOTHING in the game to say this is a 'different type of explosion that won't kill everyone' (even though it crashes the Normandy). Why isn't such a basic plot point explained.

Also, why does Shep blindly accept this Starchilds logic? He has a track history of questioning everything and not being bullied into things, no matter how desperate things seem.

Also, why is Joker suddenly on the run, escaping from a mass relay blast, with my crew magically on board (they were in London with me). Did he bail? And consider the planet they crashed on - its not in our solar system, so he MUST have made a jump through the relay - but why did he go, pick up the squad, and jump through the relay? He had NO WAY OF KNOWING that they were going to blow. It makes no sense.

And if the cruicible was made by cycles before us, each adding their own bit to it, then why is a catalyst, that no one knows about, required to fire it? Shep was the first to meet Starchild, yet he claims to be the catalyst. But the other cycles that built this thing, why would they build a weapon that needed a catalyst that they didn't know about to fire? IT MAKES NO SENSE AND IS LAZY AND RUSHED.

Point 4 - logically incompetent (and does not follow its own lore).

And another point is the theme of Mass Effect has always been unity in the face of diversity. The whole point of the series is to get everyone on the same side, which we pretty much achieve in ME3. EVEN AI in the Geth and EDI. AI are our friends. So the theme is that no matter our differences, we can all live together. This is such an important theme to have as well, especially in todays world. All of this was abandoned in the last 5 minutes and the theme was somehow changed to Organics VS AI - EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE AI ON OUR SIDE IN THE GETH AND EDI!!!! This is just poor. And the choices we have - somehow magically merge all organics and synthetics together (with no info on how this is done). Destroy all AI including those who were helping you (EDI and GETH) or control them. Since when has control of any kind of life been a theme in ME? It hasn't.

Point 5 - Switches it's main theme in the last 5 minutes.

There are many, many, many more points to be made as well, I've listed just some. They are laid out for you there, with proof to back them up.

Can you do the same in support of the endings?

Or are you simply going to revert to your 3 little bullet points, that have no merit?

[Elite Midget]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...
Than you don't care what others think only what you think than if you see no validity in any of the many valid complaints. You aren't going to change your view, that's respectable but know that many disagree with you. Your points have been beaten to death many times by many of the so called "complainers" as you say they are, I will not waste my breath because you've already read all of those points that refute yours.

There are no valid complaints as far as I'm concerned so I have no idea which ones you are refering to.

That's where you're wrong, but I will let it end at that since you wont even consider any of them.

[Dean_the_Young]

I wouldn't say I lost respect for the community, per say, because the community is an awful big and non-singular group in the first place.

I certainly do lose a good deal of respect for people who spam memes instead of critical thinking. In ME2, it was 'the prize' or 'dat ass.' Not too long ago, it was 'Hold the Line' spammers. Now it's people who say 'Space Magic' or 'artistic integrity' for anything and everything.

[Noelemahc]

So your upset about the ending because it doesn't resolve the fate of the NPC's that were on the citadel? Didn't really think this was important, myself not surprised it wasn't in the game there was more important things to deal with.

Which part of "for example" was easier to ignore, "for" or "example"? The Geth/Quarian plot is never resolved, the issue of the Fleet getting landlocked in Sol is never resolved, the Endor Holocaust option is never resolved, Daro'Xen's plots of manipulating and experimenting on the Geth cease mysteriously the moment Legion dies, obtaining Elcor, Batarian and Hanar fleets bear no impact on anything in the game, ecksetra, ecksetra.

The game enforces the notion that the reapers were an unstopable force for the enitre trilogy, even with a high EMS the best you could hope for is holding earth despite the rest of galaxy getting creamed.

Actually, no. Hackett tells us several times that we need the galaxy's fleets... he only abandons thinking of conventional warfare the moment Crucible comes onto the table, and after that, every single character thinks "it's Crucible or bust", nobody even considers fallback plans of any sort despite not knowing what it does, how it works, or will it actually affect the Reapers. We've got three whole large juicy threads arguing in favour of conventional victory and one against that I know of, the game doesn't actually anywhere prove that we can or cannot win, but depriving Shepard of the option is rather rude.

Circular, Recursive logic to me seem totally plausible for an AI to me

Yes, but should it to Shepard? The point is that shoddy writing isn't when the Starchild goes circular, it's that Shepard accepts everything it says as the goshdarned truth.

Modifié par Noelemahc, 30 avril 2012 - 11:33 .

[pharsti]

Uh.... ok....

Well, im just envious you can like that thing, more power to you i guess >_>?

[T-0pel]

Have I been visiting different forums? Because most of the time I saw people arguing but not insulting each other.

[Noelemahc]

T-0pel wrote...

Have I been visiting different forums? Because most of the time I saw people arguing but not insulting each other.

That's because most of them are rather quickly dealt with by the mods. Always underappreciated, moderators are. Although most of the insults aren't interesting to look at because of them being either auto-censored by the boards or devolving into "your mom" circular mudslinging pretty quickly.

[Russalka]

BSN is a pot and kettle warehouse.

[RollaWarden]

Russalka wrote...

BSN is a pot and kettle warehouse.

No, it's not.  And I think I understand what you mean, OP.  When we see troll posts like the one I've quoted in this reply, it's easy to get discouraged.  But I'll wager that if you add up in a constructive thread the polite, articulate, understanding, and cooperative replies versus the flames, nasty comments, and thoughtlessly-worded posts, the "good" replies will far outweigh the "bad" ones. Some folks may disagree with me about that last comment, but I'll stand by that wager. 

It's easy to get discouraged in a forum where the users are anonymous, and some abuse the anonymity.  However, to protect privacy, anonymity is vital.  Unfortunately, that means the youthfully immature, the unhappy, and the downright mean will exploit a forum to experiment with hatefulness or spread their anger and self-destructiveness.

But I'll strenuously argue that bad behavior is NOT indicative of the VAST majority of the posters on this forum.  They're good folks, and share with you a love for the ME trilogy.  Agree/disagree with the endings, the community action has been nothing short of marvelous to witness and be a part of.  Don't let the ugly posts get you down.  Focus on the good ones; there are many, many of them on this forum. 

Most BSN veterans ignore the flames, or if the nasty posts are particularly vile, you'll see the good folk here in mass call the nasty posters out.  Then sometimes the mods ban them.  It's hard to do, but as a forum poster, you gotta' filter the uglies, and focus on the folks who shine.

BTW, your post isn't about the story or campaign discussion--a no-no on this forum.  Best if we wrap this discussion up soon.

Cheers, OP, and Happy Monday--

Modifié par RollaWarden, 30 avril 2012 - 12:23 .

[NS Wizdum]

Russalka wrote...

BSN is a pot and kettle warehouse.

No, my side is more civilized than your side, and your side is more immature than my side. Also, your side hates babies and kittens.

[Kalundume]

Commander Shepard the Grey Warden wrote...

I like the endings. Now let's see if we can get through this forum without me being told how my children are going to die, I'm the next Hitler, and you're all going to come to my house and burn me alive. (The point to this forum is that while people who disliked the endings say they feel alienated, what they don't realize is that they themselves are committing the exact same crime by trying to bully people who do like the ending.)

Sorry to say that but the preference has nothing to do with opinions here: from the moral point of view all endings are bad, some are worse (control/synthesis) than others (destruction). All are associated with the evil that we have not even witnessed in our civilisation, the closest thing that was to any of those endings happened effectively either in one of genocides (Stalin, Hitler, ...) or during 2WW.

The difference is that in 2WW the good guys had won and bad guys had disappeared (executed or condemned for a life imprisonment, like the reapers should have been) and no inacceptable compromises were made (the winners did not sacrify their humanity for victory and survival, they won because they persevered)

My opinion is clear: people may like endings, but they need to live with the fact that when they say that, they expose themselves to the critics of their moral stance. Of course ME series is only a game, however if I would know somebody personally (in real world) that would tell me that he/she likes those endings, I would be at once much more careful with such a person.

And Bioware should either add more options to the current endings (at very minimum "we fight or we die" option that is repeated numerous times by Shepard himself) or they should rewrite that completely. I believe, they did not think about moral ramifications of what they had put in those endings.

Modifié par Kalundume, 30 avril 2012 - 12:16 .

[Karolus_V]

Commander Shepard the Grey Warden wrote...

I like the endings. Now let's see if we can get through this forum without me being told how my children are going to die, I'm the next Hitler, and you're all going to come to my house and burn me alive. (The point to this forum is that while people who disliked the endings say they feel alienated, what they don't realize is that they themselves are committing the exact same crime by trying to bully people who do like the ending.)

It's a Crossfire. Proenders troll Antienders, Antienders troll Proenders. This is a forum, a regulated one, and usually one doesnt see anything bad or offending(this can be viewed diferent depending on how thin is your skin).  Resuming, people dont like to be told their opinion is wrong , so discussion(heated ones sometimes) ensues. What is happening here , is a lot more people doesnt like the ending, than the people who like it, so seems as Antienders are being more aggresive, when in reality is simply they have more numbers.

[Velocithon]

Zolt51 wrote...

GiarcYekrub wrote...
I have yet to see a valid argument  against the ending, every complaint I've seen has been inferred by the complainer,  taken in isolation and out of context with the rest of the game which builds to its climax all the way through or by totally unrealistic expectations

Nope, there are a few good ones. Between a third and half of them have at least some kind of point. It's just that none of these is worth making such a fuss over, or dissing the game as a whole, or Bioware.

Whether it's worth fussing over is a matter of opinion. You may not feel as strongly, thus think it's stupid to protest it. Other feel more compelled to speak out against it.

I will say I have yet to hear a reason the ending sucks that doesn't make sense. Sure, some comments are small and nitpicky, yet in the end it remains valid. An example would be people complaining about the gift Liara gave Shepard, how vague it was and how we have no idea wtf happened. Small part, but still valid.

[Russalka]

RollaWarden wrote...
No, it's not. 

Is one side is better than the other? 

[MaxMcKay]

Commander Shepard the Grey Warden wrote...

I like the endings. Now let's see if we can get through this forum without me being told how my children are going to die, I'm the next Hitler, and you're all going to come to my house and burn me alive. (The point to this forum is that while people who disliked the endings say they feel alienated, what they don't realize is that they themselves are committing the exact same crime by trying to bully people who do like the ending.)

O.k. now let's see how you like the endings or is this a attempt to draw a reaction and get people banned or become unglued so you can point and say see!

Myself the endings are a farce and if that law suit goes forward against Bioware I just may join in

[RollaWarden]

NS Wizdum wrote...

Russalka wrote...

BSN is a pot and kettle warehouse.

No, my side is more civilized than your side, and your side is more immature than my side. Also, your side hates babies and kittens.

Lol!

[rachellouise]

well, I romanced Kaidan. I want a rainbows and steak ending.

back on topic.

All end choices are about sacrifice. All throughout the game, you are told that whatever choices you make, you cannot save everyone. You can save mordin, but you sacrifice  the future of the krogan (and unknown to shepard, wrex). You can allow mordin to sacrifice himself to save the krogan. You can not save everyone and everything. Things have to be weighed.

Like if the situation changed, there was no wrex, no eve. Would you still let mordin sacrifice himself? Knowing what wreave would aim to do.

Did anyone seriously not expect the ending to be sacrificing one thing, or another?


edit: That actually wasn't back on topic, but reply to posts within the topic

Modifié par rachellouise, 30 avril 2012 - 12:34 .

[GiarcYekrub]

Leem_0001 wrote...
Yeah, sorry, your 3 little points there - they don't make a lot of sense.

You can find them on here or on the web, but prior to release Bioware promised (through intereviews and blogs etc, you can find every one of them for yourself):
* That the choices we made in the previous 2 games would effect the endings of ME3 in drastically different ways.
* We were promised 16 different endings.
* We were promised it would not simply be an A,B,C ending (red, blue, green anyone?)
* We were promised they would not pull a Lost and leave us with more questions than answers.

So that is point 1 - broken promises.

I disagree, I've not seen a single quote that "previous 2 games would effect the endings of ME3" I've seen lots of quotes that the choice affect the journey, colour the experience. Which it does. Even the rachni quote was something along the lines of "The Rachni presents on earth will have a major impact" and that is true as they are there under reaper control regardless of your choice. Apparently there are 16 different endings depending on your EMS so its not just ABC, apparently earth gets destroyed in low ems scenarios and synthsis is unavailable

Leem_0001 wrote...
Next up, for a game developer who values story telling above all else, they have broken basic story telling rules by introuducing a new major antagonist (Starchild) in the last 10 minutes of the series. There is a reason this is a basic rule of story telling, it is jarring, and takes the reader/gamer out of the experience.. Read any, ANY, book on the craft of storytelling - I challange you to do that. You will see I am right.

So point 2 - poor storytelling.

Thats rubbish, its used all the time, and also used in ME1 with Vigil, look at Assains Creed 2 occurance in a popular video game series that suposidly values story. It was a mechanism to present the player infomation
1.Reaper motives
2.Crucible controls

Lets also remeber this only the last 10 minutes of shepards story not the series

Leem_0001 wrote...
Next they used the same endings pretty much and just swapped the colour of the explosions. How can you be okay with this? All three games were building to this point and this is the closure we got, a colour pallet swap?
Point 3 - lazy ending

The colour doesn't matter its the meaning behind it, the choice and the end of the reaper war which I thought adequately conveyed

Leem_0001 wrote...
Then there is the broken lore - Arrival states that if a Relay is destroyed,

When hit by an asteroid...

Leem_0001 wrote...
Also, why does Shep blindly accept this Starchilds logic? He has a track history of questioning everything and not being bullied into things, no matter how desperate things seem.

My Sheppard questioned it, but seriously Shepard isn't in any bargaining position and is under direct orders of hacket to fire the crucible under any circumstances, Shepard can even question this order when given it earlier in the game.

Leem_0001 wrote...
Also, why is Joker suddenly on the run, escaping from a mass relay blast, with my crew magically on board (they were in London with me). Did he bail? And consider the planet they crashed on - its not in our solar system, so he MUST have made a jump through the relay - but why did he go, pick up the squad, and jump through the relay? He had NO WAY OF KNOWING that they were going to blow. It makes no sense.

We view most of the ending from Shepards point of view, stuff happens we are not privvy to, TBH I was very relieved they survived Harbingers blast and get live hapily ever after

Leem_0001 wrote...
And if the cruicible was made by cycles before us, each adding their own bit to it, then why is a catalyst, that no one knows about, required to fire it? Shep was the first to meet Starchild, yet he claims to be the catalyst. But the other cycles that built this thing, why would they build a weapon that needed a catalyst that they didn't know about to fire? IT MAKES NO SENSE AND IS LAZY AND RUSHED.
Point 4 - logically incompetent (and does not follow its own lore).

Key point Soverign made on Virmire is that our technology, prothean technology and the cycles before us are guided in their technological development by the reapers and the Mass relays(a good reason to be rid IMO). Makes perfect sense just getting the idea it went over your head.

Leem_0001 wrote...
And another point is the theme of Mass Effect has always been unity in the face of diversity. The whole point of the series is to get everyone on the same side, which we pretty much achieve in ME3. EVEN AI in the Geth and EDI. AI are our friends. So the theme is that no matter our differences, we can all live together. This is such an important theme to have as well, especially in todays world. All of this was abandoned in the last 5 minutes and the theme was somehow changed to Organics VS AI -

No your missing the point again, that is the Reapers motives which is a separate issue to the game theme, in fact nothing typifies the theme more than the Synthsis option allowing the entire galaxy Synthetic and organic to unite together.

Leem_0001 wrote...
Destroy all AI including those who were helping you (EDI and GETH) or control them. Since when has control of any kind of life been a theme in ME? It hasn't.
Point 5 - Switches it's main theme in the last 5 minutes.

Destroy/Control IMO are both Renagade options, Destroy is basically genocide which you get the same choice in ME1 with the Rachni or Control which is effectively placing shackles on them and yes you can play the game as very anti AI shepard that agrees with the Illusive man for the most part 

So thats 5 points debunked

[Kalundume]

rachellouise wrote...

well, I romanced Kaidan. I want a rainbows and steak ending.

back on topic.

All end choices are about sacrifice. All throughout the game, you are told that whatever choices you make, you cannot save everyone. You can save mordin, but you sacrifice  the future of the krogan (and unknown to shepard, wrex). You can allow mordin to sacrifice himself to save the krogan. You can not save everyone and everything. Things have to be weighed.

Like if the situation changed, there was no wrex, no eve. Would you still let mordin sacrifice himself? Knowing what wreave would aim to do.

Did anyone seriously not expect the ending to be sacrificing one thing, or another?


edit: That actually wasn't back on topic, but reply to posts within the topic

Sacrificing the humanity is worse than death: this is what Shepard considers, saying "we fight or we die", yet no such option is given in the game; and above all: the sacrifice is already made: Shepard is as good as dead in the place where he was (on the Citadel on the verge of destruction, I do not talk of him appearing in the heap or London rubble that is a plothole for me), also the sacrifice has been made on all major homeworlds: earth, palaven, tuchanka, thessia suffering bilions of dead, indoctrinated ... so what the proenders want is to sacrify the moral system as well for survival ? it does not even work like this in the real life.

[rachellouise]

It's not over until the reapers are stopped, and they are not stopped until shepard chooses one of those three colours. There may be billions dead, but if shepard doesn't choose to sacrifice something, the choice is made for her, and she loses everything. The reapers win, and nobody would survive.

Modifié par rachellouise, 30 avril 2012 - 12:53 .