282 réponses à ce sujet

[mirage2154]

spiriticon wrote...

So some of us rather believe our own interpretation than what BioWare writers are actually telling us about the official interpretation on it?

I don't get it. The writers are already telling us a supernova didn't happen, so a supernova didn't happen.

Well I really wanted to believe them, I really do. But after ME3 ending I'll have to realy on my own logic for those kind of thinking. Everyone can making non-sense, even the madman, but writer are good at making sensible and well paced story.

Modifié par mirage2154, 01 mai 2012 - 09:16 .

[Flextt]

Twitter said so. lol @Bioware.

[Elite Midget]

Norman250 wrote...

arial wrote...

people think they went Supernova because of what happened in Arrival. but that relay did not go super-nova simply because it was destroyed, but because of the conditions in which it was destroyed.

but dont try and tell this to the anti-end people, they are continuously looking for plot-holes where there are none.

This is exactly right. The relay didn't supernova because it was hit by an asteroid, it supernova'd because the asteroid knocked the frame out of shape, releasing the Eezo core, causing an insanely huge explosion. The one at the end of Mass Effect 3 just deactivates the relay, it doesn't overload and destroy the entire frame, releasing the Eezo core....oh, wait...

That looks like an explosion to me.

Multiple ones all over the Galaxy.

[spiriticon]

Ok there's been a lot of posts but I want to stress Joker's importance in interpretation. He isn't "simply is". If he survived a multiple supernova explosion on Planet X, it goes against the codex.

Ingame exert from the Mass Effect Secondary Codex, "The Reaper War - Desperate Measures":
"Although it has recently been demonstrated that mass relays can be destroyed, a ruptured relay liberates enough energy to ruin any terrestrial world in the relay's solar system."

Why? because everything in the universe is now a great big ball of white light. Planet X could not have existed after the supernova explosions. If it was in Sol, it is a ball of white light. If Joker used a Mass Relay to get there, Planet X is near another Mass Relay and should be a great ball of white light.

Saying a supernova happened is also a contradiction to the codex and lore.

Modifié par spiriticon, 01 mai 2012 - 09:20 .

[PsyrenY]

Muhkida wrote...

It's a pity Bioware didn't give us enough detail on the original ending. Topics like this wouldn't exist otherwise.

Here's hoping the EC ending DLC fixes this.

People this pessimistic would just find something else to complain about. Nothing but a Disney ending with rainbows would be sufficient.

spiriticon wrote...
Ok there's been a lot of posts but I want to stress Joker's importance in interpretation. He isn't "simply is". If he survived a multiple supernova explosion on Planet X, it goes against the codex.

Ingame exert from the Mass Effect Secondary Codex, "The Reaper War - Desperate Measures":"Although it has recently been demonstrated that mass relays can be destroyed, a ruptured relay liberates enough energy to ruin any terrestrial world in the relay's solar system."

There's nothing about the Crucible discharge in the Codex. We're in uncharted territory.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 01 mai 2012 - 09:24 .

[Ariq]

spiriticon wrote...

Ok there's been a lot of posts but I want to stress Joker's importance in interpretation. He isn't "simply is". If he survived a multiple supernova explosion on Planet X, it goes against the codex.
 

Except we don't know where the Normandy crashed. Was it in FTL? In a Relay corridor? Had it just exited FTL in another system? We don't know. There are plenty of garden worlds in systems without Relays; one known to exist in a system within a few hours FTL range from Sol.  

[nicksmi56]

Yes, the first thing I thought was that they exploded. Heck, I still hang on to that theory. The bottom line is, even though I've seen plenty of theories, none of them have hard evidence. It's one thing to have a cutscene or a spoken line of dialogue that clearly shows they overloaded. It's another to try and draw conclusions that aren't confirmed. The mere amount of theories shows me how unreliable they are and makes me fall back on what the game tells me. It's really all just speculation until the EC comes with some BS reason why they didn't explode. I also love you peopke that say the codex is wrong. If we can't trust the codex, I could sit here whining about how Tali should have ripped off her helmet, flew into space and gone Super Saiyan to blow up the Reapers. It's like a renegade Shep says to the Illusive Man: "You have one job: information. If I can't trust you for that, you're useless to me."

[GuardianAngel470]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Muhkida wrote...

It's a pity Bioware didn't give us enough detail on the original ending. Topics like this wouldn't exist otherwise.

Here's hoping the EC ending DLC fixes this.

People this pessimistic would just find something else to complain about. Nothing but a Disney ending with rainbows would be sufficient.

You'd be surprised. I was here after ME2 hit and I've been here ever since about a month before release. The same types of people that were defending ME2 (people that loved the characters A LOT, people that had a generally paragon slant, people that loved Bioware) are now the ones complaining. Before there was a small nitpicky crowd that found every flaw, made much of every issue, claimed that Bioware was dead, got all up in arms over the actual plot of ME2 and so far they have been pretty much no shows.

I haven't even seen half the people decrying the leaked script before release. This group is almost entirely new, I don't see hardly any old faces. For the most part it's started as a dislike of the ending that has cause people to find all the other problems rather than a group actively looking for issues.

But that's just my take on this situation.

[Menethra]

Aaleel wrote...

They can retcon all they want.



But I know what I saw, and I know what everything in the game points to.

Yes i'm also pretty sure during the dialogue with the catalyst it states the mass relays would be destroyed.

[spiriticon]

Except we don't know where the Normandy crashed. Was it in FTL? In a Relay corridor? Had it just exited FTL in another system? We don't know. There are plenty of garden worlds in systems without Relays; one known to exist in a system within a few hours FTL range from Sol.

Well we also don't know that the relays went supernova because it was never shown. Could it just have suffered structural damage without the eezo core going supernova? Did the other relays "explode" in the same way as the Sol system or just discharge a wave similar to the Crucible discharge?

[GuardianAngel470]

spiriticon wrote...

Ok there's been a lot of posts but I want to stress Joker's importance in interpretation. He isn't "simply is". If he survived a multiple supernova explosion on Planet X, it goes against the codex.

Ingame exert from the Mass Effect Secondary Codex, "The Reaper War - Desperate Measures":
"Although it has recently been demonstrated that mass relays can be destroyed, a ruptured relay liberates enough energy to ruin any terrestrial world in the relay's solar system."

Why? because everything in the universe is now a great big ball of white light. Planet X could not have existed after the supernova explosions. If it was in Sol, it is a ball of white light. If Joker used a Mass Relay to get there, Planet X is near another Mass Relay and should be a great ball of white light.

Saying a supernova happened is also a contradiction to the codex and lore.

Unless of course the Relay explosion broke apart the corridor and the Normandy exited inbetween relays.

Yay speculation!

[Muhkida]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Muhkida wrote...

It's a pity Bioware didn't give us enough detail on the original ending. Topics like this wouldn't exist otherwise.

Here's hoping the EC ending DLC fixes this.

People this pessimistic would just find something else to complain about. Nothing but a Disney ending with rainbows would be sufficient.

You'd be surprised. I was here after ME2 hit and I've been here ever since about a month before release. The same types of people that were defending ME2 (people that loved the characters A LOT, people that had a generally paragon slant, people that loved Bioware) are now the ones complaining. Before there was a small nitpicky crowd that found every flaw, made much of every issue, claimed that Bioware was dead, got all up in arms over the actual plot of ME2 and so far they have been pretty much no shows.

I haven't even seen half the people decrying the leaked script before release. This group is almost entirely new, I don't see hardly any old faces. For the most part it's started as a dislike of the ending that has cause people to find all the other problems rather than a group actively looking for issues.

But that's just my take on this situation.

Never did relate myself to the ME2 crowd, but I lurked in the DA:2 forums.  That was a whole nother' form of torches and pitchforks.

[Pride Demon]

In "Control" they probably just overloaded, but in the other two endings we see one blowing up, with pieces flying off...
They may not be totally destroyed, but they certainly were not just overloaded...

That is assuming all Relays acted the same way as the one we saw, but that's the thought process that scene seems to encourage...

[spiriticon]

The Normandy exited in between relays? Landed on a perfect green garden world somehow not affected by a multiple supernovas happening across the galaxy? If Joker was nowhere near a Mass Relay, he wouldn't have a beam of light up his ass seeing as the beam was only going from Relay to Relay causing apparent supernovas.

Edit: In fact, thinking about it, the only place he could be when the Normandy started frying up was in between TWO relays. That's certain supernova death if I ever saw one.

Are you guys serious? You can see past plotholes that show Shepard and Joker surviving multiple supernovas across the galaxy but you cannot see past a plothole about the relays not really going nova?

Modifié par spiriticon, 01 mai 2012 - 09:53 .

[daecath]

Optimystic_X wrote...

daecath wrote...

Here's the problem. The relay system is a contained system, meaning that there is a set amount of energy within it. More energy (from the crucible/catalyst/citadel/whatever) is pumped into it. Now, maybe a relay is able to bleed off enough of it's energy plus the excess energy from the crucible to not go nova. However, that means that even more energy is sent to the next relay, and the next gets even more, and so on.

For this assumption to work, you need to make the assertion that "all of a relay's energy is sent to the next relay in the network." There is no support for this in-game.

For instance, prior to shooting out its core, we see the Sol Relay's bands accelerate to spin at blinding RPM. This consumes energy, and is something that the Arrival relay does not do.

First, you don't have to assume that "all of a relay's energy is sent to the next relay".

Second, we know that the amount of energy, call it x, stored in a relay, is enough to destroy a star system.

We know that four things happen. Energy is added to the relay system by the crucible. Energy is transfered from relay to relay by a beam of energy. Energy is used to accelerate the bands of the relay. Energy explodes out from the relay, presumably at an amount less than the total of what a relay stores.

Here's what we don't know - how much more energy does a relay store than is needed to cause a supernova, and how much energy does the relay lose in causing the bands to rotate? If the first number is small, and the second number is large, then it's possible that there may actually be enough energy lost to prevent the final relay from causing problems. If the first number is large, meaning that a relay has a lot more excess energy than is needed to cause a supernova, and the second number is small, then in order to avoid a supernova in all the other star systems, you have to cause one in the last one because that difference in energy has to go somewhere. Now, it's more likely that the difference between what the relays store and what will cause a nova, is larger than what is needed to make the rings move. Therefore, there is excess energy being added to the system with each destruction, and therefore, your final relay will not have any way to bleed off that energy safely.

C = energy added by crucible
E = energy released by the explosions
R = energy of the rotating bands
B = energy of the beam
X = energy of a single relay
N = number of the relay in the system

B(N) = (X + B(N-1)) - (E + R)
This is how much energy gets transfered from relay (n-1) to relay (n). For the first relay in the chain, B(N-1) is actually C. If E + R is greater than X + C, then the system is losing energy, and odds are good that the last relay won't turn into a supernova or a deathray. However, odds are not good that the total energy released in the explosion plus the total energy used by the rotating rings is greater than the combined value of the stored energy of the relay plus the additional energy of the crucible.

Modifié par daecath, 01 mai 2012 - 10:03 .

[sistersafetypin]

spiriticon wrote...

Ok there's been a lot of posts but I want to stress Joker's importance in interpretation. He isn't "simply is". If he survived a multiple supernova explosion on Planet X, it goes against the codex.

Ingame exert from the Mass Effect Secondary Codex, "The Reaper War - Desperate Measures":
"Although it has recently been demonstrated that mass relays can be destroyed, a ruptured relay liberates enough energy to ruin any terrestrial world in the relay's solar system."

Why? because everything in the universe is now a great big ball of white light. Planet X could not have existed after the supernova explosions. If it was in Sol, it is a ball of white light. If Joker used a Mass Relay to get there, Planet X is near another Mass Relay and should be a great ball of white light.

Saying a supernova happened is also a contradiction to the codex and lore.

So instead of replying to my points you post a plothole as a fact and declare your opinion right. Thanks for proving my point for me.

spiriticon wrote...

Are you guys serious? You can see past plotholes that show Shepard and Joker surviving multiple supernovas across the galaxy but you cannot see past a plothole about the relays not really going nova?

 

Edit: Also we aren't seeing past any plotholes. Which is why we agree that the Relays being destroyed would leave total destruction. Also, because visual evidence in both Arival & ME3 a relay is being destroyed [And I'm not really sure why the relays being destroyed is even up for debate. The Catalyst says the relays will be destroyed. Not deactivated, overloaded, turned off..] 

Also, the Citadel itself is a relay. It would also end up being destroyed and since we actually see that happening in game one can assume it's happening in a chain reaction in all the other relays. If it is a chain reaction, in theory Joker would have had time to get out of dodge using Faster Than Light speeds. For proof that the Citadel is destroyed, the photo is in this thread.

Further, no we don't see the Citadel completely falling apart. But that doesn't mean it didn't happen as what we were showed was nothing but the beginning moments of it all.

So no. In the end Joker has no bearing to this, because everything surrounding his escape lives in a deep plothole called, "Why is he running away before he even knows what's coming?"

Modifié par sistersafetypin, 01 mai 2012 - 10:24 .

[Ariq]

spiriticon wrote...

Well we also don't know that the relays went supernova because it was never shown. Could it just have suffered structural damage without the eezo core going supernova? Did the other relays "explode" in the same way as the Sol system or just discharge a wave similar to the Crucible discharge?

One can reason from prior evidence to the supernovae result of Relay destruction. It is a straightforward application of inductive logic. While other options are possible, we have no reason given in game to believe them. From an in universe standpoint, we have only prior experience to guide us in guessing how Relays will react to destruction.

On the other hand, there is no evidence in the case of the Normandy to make any inference. We don't know where they are, where they were going, why they were going there, or even in what manner. We know they aren't in the Sol system. That's it. We know where Joker isn't. We don't know where he is. Where do you go when you're dropped out of a Mass Relay Corridor? Apparently a random garden world. Could be Alpha Centauri. Could be Parnack for all we know.

[Sonashi]

One thing bothers me. Why asteroid from Arrival couldn't do relay jump and the Crucible could? Isn't Crucible as big as that asteroid?

Modifié par Sonashi, 01 mai 2012 - 10:28 .

[The Phazer]

Saying the relays don't nova is really the equivalent of the writer of Thelma and Louise announcing that they survive the ending of that film, as gravity stops working around the car at that exact moment.

[UrgentArchengel]

arial wrote...

people think they went Supernova because of what happened in Arrival. but that relay did not go super-nova simply because it was destroyed, but because of the conditions in which it was destroyed.

but dont try and tell this to the anti-end people, they are continuously looking for plot-holes where there are none.

I am Anti-End and it's true...I know, I read the codex and all the official proof of what happened during Arrival.  So I am not in denial like some anti-enders in this matter

[G00N3R7883]

At the end of the day, Bioware left this plot point open to interpretation. Its kind of an important plot point because it determines whether the entire galaxy is alive or dead. And ALOT of fans have interpreted it wrong.

Doesn't that imply that Bioware's writing failed? This is not the kind of thing you leave open to interpretation. If there's even a chance that fans will interpret such a critical event wrong, then you explain it so that its crystal clear.

And you do it in game, not on twitter, facebook, an interview at some event, or whatever else.

[Iconoclaste]

[quote]Funkdrspot wrote...

We don't know how close the citadel is to earth. We KNOW it's not in the atmosphere. It looks to be well out of orbit. Far enough away anything that objects would likely orbit it rather than crash to earth unless on a direct trajectory.[/quote][quote]And later, Funkdrspot wrote...

I guess I could draw a diagram if you guys want but this isn't NASA stuff, this is simple applied physics. NASA stuff is finding the weight of an astronaut 4km from earth's surface. Most people think that when you leave orbit that you leave earth's gravitational pull. Or that weight = mass.[/quote]
Maybe you just think people are dumber than you. Objects in orbit (far enough, not on Lagrange point) will eventually fall down if still under Earth's gravitational pull, it's a matter of time. You didn't know that?

[quote]Funkdrspot wrote...
[quote]Iconoclaste wrote...
The shockwave from the blast must have just shaked the structure, dislocating the arms. The arms were not "pushed" by pressure (in the void?) from the explosion.[/quote]A shockwave is pressure. 0/10 on your physics test. [/quote]
Maybe you should take a reading class.

[quote]Funkdrspot wrote...
[quote]Iconoclaste wrote...
Everybody can read. This explosion happens between the crucible and the platform, and expanses radially from there, for the most part. Its growing speed is not stopped by air,[/quote]LoL just stop dood.
A. An explosion is CAUSED by a mix of fuel and air.
B. There is no atmosphere in outer space.
C. If anything, an explosion in outer space will be SMALLER due to A and B. [/quote]
Maybe you cannot understand what you see, even if you try to describe it : this explosion on the Citadel is of the "fuel burning" type, yet that happens in space, no atmosphere. Would you care to describe the visual aspect of an explosion in space?

[quote]Funkdrspot wrote...
[quote] Iconoclaste wrote...

and if it did not eject the crucible, it surely did not push the arms away. [/quote]Rofl. As you said, the blast came from the center and expanded radially. That blast itself will push those arms away from eachother, radially. What does an explosion do but push you back?!
For the rest, just reference Newton's 3rd law of motion[/quote]
No need for Newton, just watch the cutscene : the explosion occurs between the Citadel and the Crucible. If this explosion can dislocate the arms 3 km away, how come it doesn't push the crucible towards Earth? Maybe you jump to conclusions a bit too fast?

[quote]Funkdrspot wrote...
[quote]Iconoclaste wrote...
Shockwave through the structure is more probably the cause of the arms' dislocation than the tiny pressure at the end of the fireball growth.

http://www.wwheaton..../mad/mad12.html[/quote]A shockwave is energy. It is force. It eminates from the center of the blast. It is literally force being applied to push the citadel arms away from the center.

Seriously dood, stop talking physics. It's embarrassing. Go take a class and come back.[/quote]
Again : why did the crucible remain in place? You even supposed that since the "hinges" connecting the arms to the hub seemed frail, they would have snapped out before the big arms break apart, but you do not apply that to the Presidium arm reaching the center of the hub, or the crucible just besides the explosion. Maybe you need glasses? No need to feel embarrassed.

[quote]Funkdrspot wrote...
[quote]Iconoclaste wrote...

Explain the nature of this explosion, if you can. Maybe the NASA could use your knowledge.[/quote]Think of the Citadel like a big flower. If i put a firecracker in the middle of it, the force from the explosion will be a straight vector that will push them away from the center of the flower.[/quote]
As I said, you don't seem to know a lot about explosions in space. If the "fuel+air" (lol) fireball stops its expansion (quite visual, in fact) abruptly (for no apparent reason -no more fuel to burn? The air stopped it?) just before hitting the arms, I doubt you could conclude that this type of pressure, being stopped by a vacuum (lol), could push 45 km of solid construct, if it didn't even push the crucible. Maybe you thought this was a hollywood movie?

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 01 mai 2012 - 11:11 .

[spiriticon]

spiriticon wrote...

Are you guys serious? You can see past plotholes that show Shepard and Joker surviving multiple supernovas across the galaxy but you cannot see past a plothole about the relays not really going nova?

Edit: Also we aren't seeing past any plotholes. Which is why we agree that the Relays being destroyed would leave total destruction. Also, because visual evidence in both Arival & ME3 a relay is being destroyed [And I'm not really sure why the relays being destroyed is even up for debate. The Catalyst says the relays will be destroyed. Not deactivated, overloaded, turned off..] 

Also, the Citadel itself is a relay. It would also end up being destroyed and since we actually see that happening in game one can assume it's happening in a chain reaction in all the other relays. If it is a chain reaction, in theory Joker would have had time to get out of dodge using Faster Than Light speeds. For proof that the Citadel is destroyed, the photo is in this thread.

Further, no we don't see the Citadel completely falling apart. But that doesn't mean it didn't happen as what we were showed was nothing but the beginning moments of it all.

So no. In the end Joker has no bearing to this, because everything surrounding his escape lives in a deep plothole called, "Why is he running away before he even knows what's coming?"

I'm not trying to place a plothole as fact, because I could easily argue we're all doing the same thing in essence. All I am doing is stating that there are also big plotholes associated with thinking the supernovas happened, just as there are when stating the supernova's didn't happen.

If you examine at the multiple explosions cinematic bit, there is no location for Planet X safe from a supernova which allows for that enviroment to be possible. Unless it is out of the galaxy itself.

I cannot argue that the Catalyst did mention that the mass relays would be destroyed. But if he contradicts lore several times logically so it would be hard to use his statements as factual lore.

The thing with Shepard/Joker is that, you can't say the supernova's destroyed everything, when it's clear that there ARE things which survived.  Either that or the supernova's didn't happen this time. It just makes more sense for me to go for the latter.

Modifié par spiriticon, 01 mai 2012 - 12:41 .

[Gmandam]

Relay's go nova when destroyed this we know. We have no information on what happens when they overload,shut down or otherwise go away.

However what we do know is the one time a relay was damaged heavily enough it detonated with enough energy to take out a star system. The relay's were destroyed during the endings. The catalyst himself says that they will be Destroyed. Not shut down or overloaded. What the Pro-Nova people are trying to do is apply the only knowledge we have in game to a new situation and with no further exposition or explanation of why this time is different.(The earth wave doesn't count because that happened before the relay's detonating.)

The only thing that invalidates this possibly is that joker is seen alive after the assumed relay detonations and without further information these two points are against each other and thus there is no proof either way of what happens (I'd tend to believe they did go nova because I already assume that the joker flight is a serious character violation anyway).

The anti-nova people are trying to apply conjecture to the endings by saying that this time the destruction of the relays was different. They have no proof of this. It is not shown, explained or otherwise told to us why this time the relay destruction would not unleash a torrent of energy that would take out a star system. It's the reason why I'd like to believe they didn't just wipe out a goodly part of every species in the galaxy but can't because without further exposition on why this time is different I have to use the already set in game president of the Alpha relay.

Edit: There isn't a relay in every  system as far as I can tell however. Should the normandy have ended up at one of these systems then it would have been safe from destruction. This is however specualtion as we don't know the planet , star system or method of FTL that joker used to escape from battle.

Modifié par Gmandam, 01 mai 2012 - 03:40 .