It would have been better if they'd gone with all mass effect technology was disabled, but they wanted sploshuns and they needed to keep the ships functioning.
This would have solved a massive amount of the endings' problems (or the star kid just saying "it won't kill everyone by the way")
I agree that I never thought the relay went nova but the game does not even attempt to explain (or even tell you) why this time is diffrent so I can see why people are upset and it was dumb of the writers to act shocked that people would think they did
Check the timeline again. The Crucible releases energy and it passes over the earth and does whatever it does to the reapers.
AND THEN...the beam is fired and the citadel explodes starting the chain. We're talking about a wave of energy which did not come from an explosion, and then the explosion occurs. They were two separate events and there were no pictures on people celebrating after the citadel fired the first beam and started to explode.
The beam also hits the mass relay without initial damage. Only after a period of ermm...overloading does the next explosions occur. If the beam were destructive if would KO the mass relay instantly.
First of all, we know that the Crucible uses energy in a unique way. How else do you explain waves of energy reprogramming, destroying or completely changing every lifeform in the Galaxy into transorganic or transynthetic lifeforms? That isn't conventional.
Secondly we see the same exact Crucible process repeated, in cinematics, with each relay. The relay does something, overloads then sends out a wave of Galactic changing energy.
Thirdly we see what happens with out own eyes. What actually happens in game takes precedent over the Codex. The Arrival based codex ending and a non relay supernova ending are not mutally exclusive. If so, prove that the Crucible using the relays to create abnormal, technologically advanced "energy" is the same thing as ramming an asteroid into one.
Fourthly, the Crucible is said to have been built by countless races or an unknown amount of time. We also know the Reapers have been pretty stagnant save for numbers and their husk creations. Reapers have been reaping the Galaxy for thirty seven million years. If the Crucible was even that old it would have the input of hundreds of civilizations from ones like ours to those more advanced, like the Protheans. It's very possible the Reapers got out teched by the Crucible.
Not sure about the nuclear weapon point. On one hand if we are to believe movies there's self destruct mechanisms for nukes and they don't result in massive nuclear explosions. On the other hand in real life a self destruct mechanism may do this. I don't know.
What I do know is that the Galacticv energy wave would take A LOT of energy to produce and maybe more than the Galaxy has naturally. It's obvious the relays, like the Crucible, are being used to create that energy. It's very possible that most of the energy is converted to "crucible wave" energy, minimizing the amount of energy released in a destructive form, thus a supernova.
I don't really see the "so many problems" with the above.
The plans had different cycles adding to it. They all tried to build it, but never got to use it. There WAS NOT a partially built Crucible lying around anywhere anywhere, it was built from scratch in haste by the current cycle.
I see what happens with my own eyes. Two separate codexes say the release of energy causes a supernova. A relay explodes and we see a supernova. What is said would happen, happens. I watched a galaxy view of shockwaves spreading out from the explosion at the end of ME3 just like I watched a view of a shockwave spreading out on the galaxy map in arrival as it destroyed the Batarian system.
I saw a relay break into pieces and explode in both games.
Also I don't have to prove that there's a difference between an asteroid hitting a relay and a beam. The given lore states that if a relay explodes in goes supernova. The only example we have the relay goes nova. It's up to you to find something it game that states that a relay will release energy contrary to the codex and what we've seen based on what hits it (Good luck).
You say the crucible energy is different but you don't how. You say what hits a relay and how determines how it explodes but you can't say why it's different. You're just speculating, and saying what has happened isn't the same because you say so.
The first bolded part is all I was implying really. hundreds of civilizations in golden ages adding more to the Crucible over millions of years. It's even possible the original race was even the ones who created the Reapers, who knows. Again the Reaps have been going on thirty seven million years. Some civilizations like the Protheans fought them for centuries. That's a long time.
The second bolded area is what I think is wrong with your argument. First of all the energy wave at the end is abviously the same as the Crucible wave. The one in Arrival is obviously a Supernova on a much smaller scale. If the Arrival explosion was bigger and on the scale of the waves at the end, thousands of systems would have been destroyed. Instead in ME2 and ME3 all the characters only mention that one system being destroyed...
I have read it. But if it were true, Shepard could not have survived is all I'm saying. Because that last breath scene is ALSO presented IN THE game.
Okay, just the facts. In the destroy ending, the Citadel explodes. It falls out of orbit. Shepard is terribly wounded, both from being shot and being exploded by the conduit. How does Shepard survive all of that?
Wait what? Arrival is so important to the end of the story it happens whether you play or not. As for Shepard and Joker surviving... Well Shepard's survival is a plothole in my opinion and Joker simply is. I don't see how either pertain to the fact that the Relays supernova.
Joker simply is? If he is, then said supernova doesn't destroy everything in the star system. If it doesn't destroy everything in the star system then the codex is not completely true.
If the codex is not completely true, then the relays don't have to go supernova because of arrival.
It has a massive implication.
By Joker simply is, I meant he's not really important and I'm unsure why you even brought him up. Also, his survival does not prove anything. You're operating under the assumption that the Normandy with one of the most advanced FTL engines couldn't outrun the devestation.
In fact, you have to use a lot of assumptions to make your assertions that the Relays didn't go supernova. "If this, But that one writer said..."
Another problem is, you treat plotholes as proof of your opinion. When all plotholes prove are that there are logical inconsistencies with the ending
Modifié par sistersafetypin, 01 mai 2012 - 01:18 .
I read the title of this post and laughed hard for a good 2-3 min. I just recently got my breath back
No, as others have posted, with pictures, they blew up. we see parts flying. this is the same thing we see in Arrival.
I saw parts flying sure. But I didn't see a supernova explosion destroying everything in the universe. Did you?
Thanks for another great laugh.
-The waves were destructive, thats why the nomandy does damaged and goes down -That destructive wave can be seen in an external shot of the galaxy with the waves spreading out over the systems. So yes, I did see supernova's destroying the systems they were in. -Even if the waves were not supernova as stated before they were destructive. Millions of ships would be destroyed just like the normandy - The Major part of Arrival was to show and establish what would happen when the Relays were destroyed. Answer is supernova. Once again they showed the explosions were destructive with the normandy going down
Not sure why you're laughing...
-The "destructive wave" is the energy being funneled through from relay to relay in a more condensed form. Even so, it damaged the Normandy and didn't vapourize is on contact. So could it be a supernova? -You saw the Galactic energy waves of the crucible not a supernova. If those were supernovas they wouldn't fit with previous lore anyways for the opposite reason. The Galaxy would have ceased to exist because of a Galactic Nova. -Again the Normandy was in transit through a relay, getting stuck behind the chatoic beam of energy, not the waves. -If your above points were ture, Arrival wouldn't explain it.
I am laughing becuase either way the waves are destructive. Either they went supernova or blew up and still sent out a destructive wave. If they are being sent from one relay to another, ok, then why do the relays still explode, with parts flying and energy spreading out from the center? if they were sending energry to the next only one would blow up (the last one in the chain) and the rest would just have dead energy sources
-The waves were destructive, thats why the nomandy does damaged and goes down -That destructive wave can be seen in an external shot of the galaxy with the waves spreading out over the systems. So yes, I did see supernova's destroying the systems they were in. -Even if the waves were not supernova as stated before they were destructive. Millions of ships would be destroyed just like the normandy - The Major part of Arrival was to show and establish what would happen when the Relays were destroyed. Answer is supernova. Once again they showed the explosions were destructive with the normandy going down
Explain why the soldiers and Reapers on Earth were not killed by said destructive wave. In fact. It looked like the wave just passed right through them. Even had the energy to raise their guns and cheer when the reapers fell!
Explain to me why the Normandy goes down if the waves were not destructive. Also that wave you are refering too is coming from the Citadel, not the relay exploding.
people think they went Supernova because of what happened in Arrival. but that relay did not go super-nova simply because it was destroyed, but because of the conditions in which it was destroyed.
but dont try and tell this to the anti-end people, they are continuously looking for plot-holes where there are none.
There is no proof in what you say. Bioware only has what THEY TOLD US to go on. Stop trying to spin this to make yourself right.
Explain to me why the Normandy goes down if the waves were not destructive. Also that wave you are refering too is coming from the Citadel, not the relay exploding.
Explanations were speculated on some other threads about this. What is seen "coming behind" the Normandy is the collapse of the Mass Effect channel, and when it reaches the Back of the Normandy it "pulls" it back to sub-FTL speeds, causing the break.
The 1st ball of red "space magic" is not destructive if you have sufficient EMS. It doesn't even destroy the Reapers on Earth, they just fall on the ground. It doesn't destroy the ships around the Citadel either.
The first bolded part is all I was implying really. hundreds of civilizations in golden ages adding more to the Crucible over millions of years. It's even possible the original race was even the ones who created the Reapers, who knows. Again the Reaps have been going on thirty seven million years. Some civilizations like the Protheans fought them for centuries. That's a long time.
The second bolded area is what I think is wrong with your argument. First of all the energy wave at the end is abviously the same as the Crucible wave. The one in Arrival is obviously a Supernova on a much smaller scale. If the Arrival explosion was bigger and on the scale of the waves at the end, thousands of systems would have been destroyed. Instead in ME2 and ME3 all the characters only mention that one system being destroyed...
Your eyes are lying to you.
Abd I have run out of time to type anymore.
The 'crucible wave'? It has a name now. Let's look at this. This wave let out by the Crucible first damages nothing, not one human was injured on the ground, just reapers.
NOW...if this wave is harmless, and it is supposedly the wave we see spreading, what the hell was the destructive wave that was traveling at FTL speed and ripped apart the back end of the Normandy? The 'crucible wave' is harmless right?
I won't even speak on the idea of races who know nothing of how relays work building something that destroys a relay and disperses the energy in a safe manner.
Alpha relay: had a Pluto sized rock smash into it causing all the energy to be released huge explosion insues
end game rainbow explosion: has a beam shot in it and then fires most of its energy to the next relay relay explodes and releases a pulse.
The codex entry for Protheans still show a husk version of the tentacle bearded statues on Ilos and up until ME3 I'm pretty sure they listed the Reapers as fictional devils from hell and the mass relays as Prothean technology.
The codex says alot of thinks but is essentially an in-universe encyclopedia that is limited to what the galactic population as a whole is aware of not just what Shepard and friends are aware of.
That being said the alpha relay's explosion caused a HOLY**** bright light (thus the super nova that took out the Bahak system) while the end game rainbow explosions all had a transparent appearance to them.
My question is if the relays DID go super nova why did it look the same as the crucible pulse (which didn't vaporize earth) of course if it didn't go super nova why did the entire relay explode?
1) pluto sized rock, your correct the reason the relay went supernova though was because the frame was pushed apart thus destabilizing the core and causing it to go super nova.
2)the rainbow explosion is a retcon for various reason but for the most part one of the big one was that the relay network did not work like that all it did was create a corridor of mass free space by drawing on and draining the dark energy that was already present in the universe that allowed instantaneous travel, for the crucible energy to destabilize and cause a feed back into the relay itself made little sense to begin with but add on to the fact that the relays need to align themselves in order to activate the field how was it that the relays were able to fire to individual relay and then boot up and fire to another relay. If you look at the ending vid you can clearly see multiple beams firing from one spot in the relay network but another items that was retconned for the ending.
3) two things about the codex entries you discuss, 1) until the suicide mission the galaxy thought the protheans looked like the squidlike statues found on ilos but they were retconned into becoming the isunnanon, it wasn't until shepard found that terminal that we learned that the collectors were the glorified husks of the protheans. Also the codex states along with the rest of the game that the council regards the reapers as a myth, and every race along with the council believes that they don't exist and that sovereign was nothing more than a geth dreanought.
now on a side note look at this video
There are five things I see that ultimately bother me about the cookie cutter endings 1)In all three color types you see the peices of the victory fleet, in destroy those peices explode, suggesting that all technology is destroyed in the destroy ending, in control and synthesis they disappear. 2)the effects of the ending on earth, destroy, there is fire and destroyed technology no matter how good your ems is signifiying that all technology is destroyed, control - everyone is bathed in electricity that in the bad ending would destroy concrete but somehow leave all organic matter in tact, in the good control ending the soldier cheer immediately somehow knowing that the reapers weren't going to attack anymore, synthesis - the soldiers just kinda stand there drooling, no celebrating or doing anything, they just kinda stand there reminiscent of vigils description of how the reapers left their idoctrinated agents behind. 3) Citadel - both destroy and synthesis ending play out exactly the same including the reaper bodies turning upside down as if they were dead and no sign of the victory fleet as all, control ending - looks more like the reapers winning than anything, the victory fleet and its debris seems completely gone, yet the citadel is untouched and the reapers fly away you see the citadel closing back up, i'd almost go as far as to say that they won in that scenario because the cycle didn't end just shepard made them go away whos to say they don't come back in 50k years and take out the next cycle. 4) the relays - in destroy and synthesis two things stand out completely, 1 the explosion sending peices of the relay flying away completely, and 2 the explosion increasing in size at the same speed as the wave and never stopping, when the scene cuts away its still expanding, in control we are left with more questions because it starts the same way as the other two endings but the game cuts it out right as the back and top part of the relay detonate, in fact it looks like a blue version of the destroy detonation almost exactly, just that it stops short of completely blowing apart. 5) the joker scene - they are colored slightly differently inside the normandy, why the energy wave would show up inside the normandy when joker is clearyl out running it is uncertain, also the fact that the energy is following joker through a mass effect field due to it being more like a direct beam and not a wave, also each beam is accompanied by its representing explosion, look at the tunnel closely it does not look like a tunnel collapsing more like an explosion destabillizing the mass effect corridor, but somehow normandies plot armor protects the main ship and nothing else, also where was EDI, or the rest of the gang on the normandy they just vanished for that scene only to show up on the garden of eden scene.
Point being is the ending points to one thing very clearly and that they were not written very clearly.
I have read it. But if it were true, Shepard could not have survived is all I'm saying. Because that last breath scene is ALSO presented IN THE game.
Okay, just the facts. In the destroy ending, the Citadel explodes. It falls out of orbit. Shepard is terribly wounded, both from being shot and being exploded by the conduit. How does Shepard survive all of that?
actually if youre speaking strictly facts, we dont know that the citadel falls out of orbit. we see the center ring explode but we literally know nothing about the degree its tilted at in relation to earth or the distance from earth. at most we couldextrapolate that the citadel is at an angle that would be preferable to have the arms safely ejected to space. if you look at how the citadel is positioned at 180 degrees of London while maintaining a completely vetical position, and how the arms naturally arrange themselveswhen the citadel is open, and how the arms align naturally. if all this is correct, which it seems to be based off of the video, then the arms would push off into space
I have read it. But if it were true, Shepard could not have survived is all I'm saying. Because that last breath scene is ALSO presented IN THE game.
Okay, just the facts. In the destroy ending, the Citadel explodes. It falls out of orbit. Shepard is terribly wounded, both from being shot and being exploded by the conduit. How does Shepard survive all of that?
actually if youre speaking strictly facts, we dont know that the citadel falls out of orbit. we see the center ring explode but we literally know nothing about the degree its tilted at in relation to earth or the distance from earth. at most we couldextrapolate that the citadel is at an angle that would be preferable to have the arms safely ejected to space. if you look at how the citadel is positioned at 180 degrees of London while maintaining a completely vetical position, and how the arms naturally arrange themselveswhen the citadel is open, and how the arms align naturally. if all this is correct, which it seems to be based off of the video, then the arms would push off into space
The Citadel isn't the Normandy and the arms aren't escape pods. If the there is enough force for the arms to break off, then it stands that the force would also cause them to further breakdown. And considering how close the Citadel was to Earth's orbit, it stands to reason that at least a few of those objects fell into Earth's atmosphere.
Why, did I make that logic step? Because an object in motion remains in motion unless stopped by an equal or greater force. There is no such force in the area of Space the Citadel occupied.
Sorry but if large chunks of something is blowing off, that isn't overloaded, that is indeed destroyed.
I have it on good authority from an anonymous source who heard someone claim that an uncomfirmed report from some guy on Twitter speculated that you officially didn't really see what you think you saw. And that's evidence you can count on!
The first bolded part is all I was implying really. hundreds of civilizations in golden ages adding more to the Crucible over millions of years. It's even possible the original race was even the ones who created the Reapers, who knows. Again the Reaps have been going on thirty seven million years. Some civilizations like the Protheans fought them for centuries. That's a long time.
The second bolded area is what I think is wrong with your argument. First of all the energy wave at the end is abviously the same as the Crucible wave. The one in Arrival is obviously a Supernova on a much smaller scale. If the Arrival explosion was bigger and on the scale of the waves at the end, thousands of systems would have been destroyed. Instead in ME2 and ME3 all the characters only mention that one system being destroyed...
Your eyes are lying to you.
Abd I have run out of time to type anymore.
The 'crucible wave'? It has a name now. Let's look at this. This wave let out by the Crucible first damages nothing, not one human was injured on the ground, just reapers.
NOW...if this wave is harmless, and it is supposedly the wave we see spreading, what the hell was the destructive wave that was traveling at FTL speed and ripped apart the back end of the Normandy? The 'crucible wave' is harmless right?
I won't even speak on the idea of races who know nothing of how relays work building something that destroys a relay and disperses the energy in a safe manner.
Yes "crucible wave." What else should I call it? The "supernova that destroys everything in its path and consumes the whole galaxy wave?"
The wave is harmless both in the Control, Synthesis and Destroy endings. It's only dangerous when its carrying out a specific destructive function, is not "tuned" correctly and/or is travelling in a ccompressedt form relay to relay. This has already been widely accepted since it's the cause of major angst about why Joker and the Normandy were traveling through the relay at the time the Crucible is activated. That's the only scene where we see the energy is dangerous without low EMS. A scene featuring a ship in between relays essentially being chased by galactic amounts of energy compressed into small beam.
If this energy was so dangerous even in this compressed form, why didn't it obliterate or vaporize the Normandy on contact with its supernova power? The answer is because the energy is not inherently dangerous and is not a supernova.
And why won't you speak about the relays being used for their energy? The energy wave is released before/as the relay blows up. Scientifically they're basically controlled singularities which have huge amounts of energy. We don't know how they relays truly work. The Protheans figured it out by building a protoype. Meaning it's possible since ME1 for races to understand Reaper tech. Over tens of million of years I think it's possible to come up with something like the Crucible. Unlikely? Yes. Possible? Yes.
I don't see anything in Mass Effect that says the relays can't be used methodically, especially by a technologically advanced device designed and built by countless races over millions of years.
Edit:
Ariq wrote...
Sublyminal wrote...
Sorry but if large chunks of something is blowing off, that isn't overloaded, that is indeed destroyed.
I have it on good authority from an anonymous source who heard someone claim that an uncomfirmed report from some guy on Twitter speculated that you officially didn't really see what you think you saw. And that's evidence you can count on!
I don't think overloaded and explosion are mutually exclusive. I know from what I saw the relays are definitely thousands of pieces of space junk. The difference between just blowing up and actually causing a supernova are huge.
Rofl that took me forever to fix those quotes.
Edit 2:
sistersafetypin wrote...
Funkdrspot wrote...
gavinbrindstaar wrote...
spiriticon wrote...
I have read it. But if it were true, Shepard could not have survived is all I'm saying. Because that last breath scene is ALSO presented IN THE game.
Okay, just the facts. In the destroy ending, the Citadel explodes. It falls out of orbit. Shepard is terribly wounded, both from being shot and being exploded by the conduit. How does Shepard survive all of that?
actually if youre speaking strictly facts, we dont know that the citadel falls out of orbit. we see the center ring explode but we literally know nothing about the degree its tilted at in relation to earth or the distance from earth. at most we couldextrapolate that the citadel is at an angle that would be preferable to have the arms safely ejected to space. if you look at how the citadel is positioned at 180 degrees of London while maintaining a completely vetical position, and how the arms naturally arrange themselveswhen the citadel is open, and how the arms align naturally. if all this is correct, which it seems to be based off of the video, then the arms would push off into space
The Citadel isn't the Normandy and the arms aren't escape pods. If the there is enough force for the arms to break off, then it stands that the force would also cause them to further breakdown. And considering how close the Citadel was to Earth's orbit, it stands to reason that at least a few of those objects fell into Earth's atmosphere.
Why, did I make that logic step? Because an object in motion remains in motion unless stopped by an equal or greater force. There is no such force in the area of Space the Citadel occupied.
If I remember correctly from ME1 the Citadel is invunerable. At least with its arms closed. So one could say the main construction of the Citadel cannot be destroyed, but I doubt the same goes for anything built or living on the Citadel.
But I know what I saw, and I know what everything in the game points to.
like i say about 8times a week, the Alpha relay in Arrival did not go super-nova simply because it was destroyed, but because of the conditions from which it was destroyed
Please, grant us your omniscient knowledge of the Mass Effect universe, in which you throw established prior events out the window, while having no evidence supporting your claims against said established prior events.
Oh, blessed one.
Obviously.. he is a Republican. He can have every scientific fact staring him in the face and still deny it is true.. be in the middle of a hurricane and deny it's a hurricane... and even say.. that's not what he said even though that is what he said... so forget this guy
regardless of the argument for or against, BioWare did a horrible job with that given how close it looked to Arrival and what we were told in Arrival. They should have shown the EMP, or whatever kind of energy wave it was, hit earth an not destroy it and then their "it was a different kind of explosion" explanation makes more sense.
There were a lot of us that were like "WTF? I thought those explosions on the map meant that system is gone".
But I know what I saw, and I know what everything in the game points to.
like i say about 8times a week, the Alpha relay in Arrival did not go super-nova simply because it was destroyed, but because of the conditions from which it was destroyed
Please, grant us your omniscient knowledge of the Mass Effect universe, in which you throw established prior events out the window, while having no evidence supporting your claims against said established prior events.
Oh, blessed one.
Obviously.. he is a Republican. He can have every scientific fact staring him in the face and still deny it is true.. be in the middle of a hurricane and deny it's a hurricane... and even say.. that's not what he said even though that is what he said... so forget this guy
If you watch both videos one after the other or better yet all the endings and the arrival video, you will see the explosions are very different...
Not to mention those arguing against the supernova theory are actually using all the games scenes and codex entires to come to a logical deduction. Those thinking there were supernovas are actually ignoring a lot of setup lore, even what happens in arrival, to prove a supernova happened. I don't know about you, but if the Galactic "explosions" were supernovas covering the whole Galaxy... there wouldn't be a galaxy left period. Arrival doesn't support a supernova spanning multiple systems ever.
Sorry but if large chunks of something is blowing off, that isn't overloaded, that is indeed destroyed.
I have it on good authority from an anonymous source who heard someone claim that an uncomfirmed report from some guy on Twitter speculated that you officially didn't really see what you think you saw. And that's evidence you can count on!
This is a copy of a post I put in another one of these threads that I believe can offer a simple explanation.
A key difference between the destruction of the relay in the Arrival DLC and the relay network in Mass Effect 3 is the Crucible energy discharge. In Arrival, the relay is hit with an asteroid causing the relay to lose its ability to contain the energy within its rings. The Alpha relay had just fired and was returning to a passive state when it was struck by the asteroid. Therefore, the destruction of the Alpha relay led to a supernova-esque event.
When the Crucible fires its pulse towards the Sol relay, you see the relay accelerate to full power and then it fires the charge off to the next with each relay after that continuing to release a cascade of Crucible energy throughout the galaxy. If you watch closely, when the Sol relay fires the charge into the rest of the network, all of the energy within the rings is dispersed into the shot. This does not happen whenever a ship or any object is sent from one relay to the next. It is then logical to conclude that when the energy of the Crucible interacts with the "power core" of each relay, it uses the entire charge of that relay to send its energy wave throughout a solar system and the remaining energy is then passed on to the next relay in the network to continue the cascading effect of the Crucible's power.
Of course, this is all just a big piile of speculation and this user is not in any way required to provide any further evidence for their reasoning. I'd like to note that even if you do not agree with my thoughts on the relay network's destruction, it stands to reason that the explanation is likely what BioWare intended for audiences familiar with science fiction stories to take away from the difference between the two events.
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