410 réponses à ce sujet

[CmnDwnWrkn]

JakeMacDon wrote...

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

Why thank you. I do my best.

In all seriousness though, immature as I'm aware my comment was (and in retrrospect probably should not have made; I even apologize for it, gentleman that I am), it was about as constructive to this thread as your posts have been, and was far more concise besides.

Now, if you would care to explain your points thoughtfully and without resorting to insults, I would be more than glad to do the same in return.

My point was pretty simple. 

Only Shepard - and via Sheppy, the player, gets to tap Talitail.  It's pretty straightforward.  Every response by a Talifapper so far has been completely predictable, from the "She's mine whether I romanced her or not," right down to the "Gee, yuir sex doll crack is old, herpderp."  D'uh.

It was an illustration of how this thread will inevitably devolve.  I was just slapping 'em around a bit, Talihatin' monster that I am.  I have a hard time taking any thread on Tali seriously, unfortunately.  It's impossible to talk about her without the 'fappers a-****** and ruining it.

*Shrug*

Simple fact:  Tali and Garrus were funny as hell as a couple, and it made the most sense for them to end up that way.  

Tali and Shepard is that "little sister" vibe, Shep taking advantage of a young girl's hero worship.  I am just not cool with that, and I can't understand why others are - it's like trying to hook up with your best buddy's little sister now that she's filled out - 17 and ripe for your 25 year old slobber.  "Dude - she seduced me!"  Dafuq.

There ain't no way that's not creepy. 

Your posts are consistently off the mark.  "Little sister vibe"?  Really? Shepard is what? 30 or so? And she's 24 I think.  And Garrus is roughly the same age as Shepard.  The fact that you would even go there - comparing their relationship to taking advantage of an underage teenager, says more about where your mind is at than anything else.  It's disgusting, really.

Your "Simple Fact" is a simple opinion.

As for the rest of your ridiculous post - you're completely missing the point, as are many others.  It isn't about people not being able to stand seeing Tali with someone else.  If I didn't romance her, I would have LOVED to have seen her together with Garrus, IF it was done properly.

These as the two most major characters not named Shepard.  I think it's reasonable to call them Shepard's two best friends.  As such, any romance between them deserves to be developed with more than a couple of cheap lines of auto-dialogue and a joke hookup in the main battery.  I won't even get into the character-breaking aspects of the dialogue that are totally inconsistent with the characters' personalities. Tali and Garrus really do deserve better, and we deserve better.  I would expect the type of "romance" they had for Gabby and Ken.  But not for two people that have been with us throughout the series.

[Errationatus]

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

See, here we come to the point of the issue. You don't think that Tali/Shepard is a good couple.

 

I didn't say that.  I said a lot of the time it can feel pretty creepy, but then I'm not fantasizing about her in my head when I play, either.  Personally, I was pissed you couldn't romance Samara or Chakwas properly.  For the most part, Tali is such a cliche she's just mainly too anime-boring.

 
Others feel the same way about Tali/Garrus. They don't want to see it in their game the same way you don't want Tali/Shepard in yours.

 

Then stay away from the thread in the narrative. I don't romance Tali.  Easy.  No muss, no fuss, no creep vibe.  The times I tried it - to get my full ME experience - it creeped me out.  That's after a few runs with it. But, I'm not having an issue with it.  Just like I don't care there are gay people in the game.   Yet, there are those who can't stand the idea that gays exist in the game - never mind you never even have to talk to them - they're in the game and they don't want them there.  The Tali/Garrus objections in tone are no different.  

 
Why should the option to discourage it (like you can with both Joker/EDI and Donelly/Daniels) not exist? More choice in an RPG is always a good thing, right?

 

Let me put it this way:  how is it your/Shep's business who dates/sleepswith/marries whom?  As long as it isn't a child or someone incapable of making an informed opinion it's none of your damned business.  Why the hell would I want that option in my escapist entertainment?  "Yay!  I can be an intrusive bigoted assh0le here, too!"  *Clapclap*  Pass.

This seems like an admission of trolling to me.
 

 

... and the accusation of trolling follows like day follows night.

 

 
And from what I've seen, most of the insulting or rude posts seem to be on the pro-couple side (see that "aren't you a couple of dicks" post that's been quoted a million times thus far).

See above.  Change Tali/Garrus for the "arguments" against Trayor/Cortez, and they're not so innocent.  Maybe some of us don't see much of a difference.  The tone is certainly the same.

[Errationatus]

MetalGear312 wrote...

My, my what a pompous and hateful ******.

Which?  My rather scathing response or the gay slur?  We've kinda moved past that.

Or are you one of those who just reads the last page of a thread and then yaps like he has a clue?  

Because you obviously don't.

[Errationatus]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Your posts are consistently off the mark.  "Little sister vibe"?  Really? Shepard is what? 30 or so? And she's 24 I think.  And Garrus is roughly the same age as Shepard.  The fact that you would even go there - comparing their relationship to taking advantage of an underage teenager, says more about where your mind is at than anything else.  It's disgusting, really.

 

Then you miss the point.  Age has nothing to do with it.  And if this is the best attack you've got to defend the 'fappery, you need to think of something new.

 

Your "Simple Fact" is a simple opinion.

 

Yup.  Just like this.  Mine happens to have been thought about a smidge.  That's the difference.

 
As for the rest of your ridiculous post - you're completely missing the point, as are many others.  It isn't about people not being able to stand seeing Tali with someone else.  If I didn't romance her, I would have LOVED to have seen her together with Garrus, IF it was done properly.

 

Oh, it's a TECHNICAL problem, a Bioware error and "bad writing", not the prejudice of the Talifappers flaring.  Suuuure.

 
These as the two most major characters not named Shepard.  I think it's reasonable to call them Shepard's two best friends.  As such, any romance between them deserves to be developed with more than a couple of cheap lines of auto-dialogue and a joke hookup in the main battery.
 

 

So their burgeoning relationship should have been blatant and obvious because otherwise it's not viable?  Huh?  Do you know what's going on in your friend's lives every five minutes?  If you were my firend I'd tell you to mind your own fukk'n business.

 
I won't even get into the character-breaking aspects of the dialogue that are totally inconsistent with the characters' personalities.
 

 

Nothing I heard from Garrus was out of character.  Tali acting like a saucy Lolita in the middle of a fight on the Geth Dreadnought?  Naw - perfectly in character.  Give me a break.

 
Tali and Garrus really do deserve better, and we deserve better.
 

 

Garrus isn't good enough for Tali?  Tali's not good enough for Garrus?  See, this doesn't work.  Either they're awesome people or not.  "No, dude, you are my best firend and most trusted confidant.  But touch a woman I'm not dating, and I'll shoot you. I'm saving her in case my current one goes south."  Whu?  That's some attitude you got. Some friend you are.  Your objections ring a little hollow here.  Romances happen in the background.  Happens all the time.

 

 
I would expect the type of "romance" they had for Gabby and Ken.  But not for two people that have been with us throughout the series.

I see no reason - having played the series multiple times - why it doesn't make sense.  All I hear are objections on personal emotive grounds, not reasonable ones.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

JakeMacDon wrote...
So their burgeoning relationship should have been blatant and obvious because otherwise it's not viable?  Huh?  Do you know what's going on in your friend's lives every five minutes?  If you were my firend I'd tell you to mind your own fukk'n business.

See here's the thing - Tali and Garrus AREN'T REAL.  They don't have lives going on in the background, because they don't actually exist outside of fiction.  All we know about them is what is presented to us in the game.  When something is haphazardly inserted into the story, and the only justification for it is, "well, we don't know what goes on behind closed doors; it COULD have happened," this comes across as a defense for poor writing.  Again, by your logic, ANYTHING could be inserted into the story AT ANY TIME, and it would be okay, because, hey, we don't know what is going on behind the scenes.

If a family of Leprechauns suddenly appeared on the Normandy prior to the final Reaper battle, you could justify this using your exact same logic.  "Well, there COULD be a planet of Leprechauns somewhere in the Mass Effect universe.  Joker MIGHT have travelled to the Leprechaun planet to pick them up while Shepard was out on a mission.  Things happen when Shepard isn't around; therefore, this is perfectly feasible."

Your arguments are completely ridiculous.

JakeMacDon wrote...Garrus isn't good enough for Tali?  Tali's not good enough for Garrus?
 See, this doesn't work.  Either they're awesome people or not.  "No,
dude, you are my best firend and most trusted confidant.  But touch a
woman I'm not dating, and I'll shoot you. I'm saving her in case my
current one goes south."  Whu?
 That's some attitude you got. Some friend you are.  Your objections
ring a little hollow here.  Romances happen in the background.  Happens
all the time.

You did not comprehend what I wrote properly.  My point was, Tali and Garrus deserve better WRITING, not better PEOPLE.

JakeMacDon wrote...
Nothing I heard from Garrus was out
of character.  Tali acting like a saucy Lolita in the middle of a fight
on the Geth Dreadnought?  Naw - perfectly in character.  Give me a break.

Saucy Lolita? WTF...this is where I finally figured out you're trolling.  Nice job, you really did have me for a bit.

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 02 mai 2012 - 04:51 .

[Errationatus]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

See here's the thing - Tali and Garrus AREN'T REAL. 

 

They AREN'T?!  Gawdammned Bioware and their lying ways!  Time to boycott 'em! Retake Reality! 

"Onward Talimancers, marching off to ******!"  Da-da-da-da-da-dum!

 
They don't have lives going on in the background, because they don't actually exist outside of fiction. *SNIP*  Again, by your logic, ANYTHING could be inserted into the story AT ANY TIME, and it would be okay, because, hey, we don't know what is going on behind the scenes.

 

Well, and I could just be inserting this into this post because, y'know, anything could happen when I'm not writing a post - is that, in the flow of any narrative, it is an assumption made by most people able to suspend their disbelief that other characters in a story, created to exist within that universe and meant by the author to be as vital and alive as the main characters - that not when being directly referenced are actually living beings doing other things like using the bathroom or eating dinner or having relationships, y'know, having lives of their own as separate individuals - and not in a box waiting until needed. 

Now, see, I would have thought this was something everyone knew, but apparently it's only me, much to my newfound chagrin.

 
If a family of Leprechauns suddenly appeared on the Normandy prior to the final Reaper battle, you could justify this using your exact same logic.  "Well, there COULD be a planet of Leprechauns somewhere in the Mass Effect universe.  Joker MIGHT have travelled to the Leprechaun planet to pick them up while Shepard was out on a mission.  Things happen when Shepard isn't around; therefore, this is perfectly feasible."

Your arguments are completely ridiculous.

 

No, this "counter" is completely ridiculous because it's not even remotely germaine to anything I've asserted since I've begun.  This is you not having an actual counter-argument.

 
You did not comprehend what I wrote properly.  My point was, Tali and Garrus deserve better WRITING, not better PEOPLE.

 

Oh, I see.  You know, you could have done something like actually say that the first time.  Regardless, its irrelevant.  As I said, above, there are reasonable assumptions made by an author that the majority of their readers are not cretins and can infer.

Rarely, however on BSN, does this happen.

 
Saucy Lolita? WTF...this is where I finally figured out you're trolling.  Nice job, you really did have me for a bit.

Look, I'm a troll again.  Typical.  Missed all the banter a romanced Tali makes on the Dreadnought, did we?  Miss the tone of that voice?  She even hands you that arc pistol with a "Oooo, Shepaaaard, loooook" tone, while seductively laying it down for him to see.  He even answers with a tone of "Ooh, baby watchagot?". Naturally, a Dreadnought full of murderous machines that will kill you without the slightest shred of mercy is the absolute perfect place to be pitching woo.  Now that is brilliant writing.

Oy.

Modifié par JakeMacDon, 02 mai 2012 - 05:21 .

[jeweledleah]

I used to be all "come on bioware, of all the fanfiction ships to implement, you go for this one?

and now I just want them to fix the bug that ties the rest of the dialogues to Ashley's approval rating.

the sad truth is... none of the mass effect characters are consistent or coherent and fleshed out enough, to claim ANYTHING with full confidence.

you don't have to like it, mind you. there are quite a few things that I dislike about character development in ME3. but the sad truth is - they are fictional characters with enough about them being unknown and unwritten that writers can and will add whatever the heck they want, to progress the plotpoints they wish to happen. even in such character driven game as Mass Effect.

so we can dislike it. its perfectly ok to feel that something is off, that something feels wrong. because those feelings, those personal perceptions are VALID, no matter how hard other people try to convince you that you are wrong and a bad person to feel that way.

I guess the best we can do is grit our teeth and accept that other people see it differently and like different things. and that goes for people on ALL sides of the argument.

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

JakeMacDon wrote...

Then stay away from the thread in the narrative. I don't romance Tali.  Easy.  No muss, no fuss, no creep vibe.

That was the point; you can choose to romance Tali, but others can't choose for Tali and Garrus not to romance each other. Whether they choose to ignore it or not is irrelevant; it happens anyway. It's like me pretending Kal'Reegar isn't dead because I didn't read that email.

Let me put it this way:  how is it your/Shep's business who dates/sleepswith/marries whom?  As long as it isn't a child or someone incapable of making an informed opinion it's none of your damned business.  Why the hell would I want that option in my escapist entertainment?  "Yay!  I can be an intrusive bigoted assh0le here, too!"  *Clapclap*  Pass.

Because you influence your crew mates all the time? And again I point to Joker/EDI as a relevant example.

... and the accusation of trolling follows like day follows night.

 

When all your posts contain the phrase "Talifappers" repeated endlessly, and you openly admit to doing it in order to "slap them around" why yes, that would seem like trolling.

See above.  Change Tali/Garrus for the "arguments" against Trayor/Cortez, and they're not so innocent.  Maybe some of us don't see much of a difference.  The tone is certainly the same.

Or they could be compared to the arguments against Starchild instead (especially seeing as Starchild is poor writing and Traynor/Cortez are not). Equating people who don't like one facet of a game to people who don't like a different facet for entirely different reasons is very silly.

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

jeweledleah wrote...

so we can dislike it. its perfectly ok to feel that something is off, that something feels wrong. because those feelings, those personal perceptions are VALID, no matter how hard other people try to convince you that you are wrong and a bad person to feel that way.

I guess the best we can do is grit our teeth and accept that other people see it differently and like different things. and that goes for people on ALL sides of the argument.

Yeah, I guess this pretty much sums things up. That's why I think there should be a choice, so people who like it can have it and people who don't like it don't have to deal with it. Just like having Allers on the ship.

At any rate, this argument is clearly going nowhere (like most BSN arguments, I suppose), so I'm out. I've got better things to do than regurgitate the same points ad infinitum. It's why I've mostly stopped posting in those quarian/geth threads too.

Modifié par Mr. Big Pimpin, 02 mai 2012 - 05:49 .

[CmnDwnWrkn]

JakeMacDon wrote...
They AREN'T?!  Gawdammned Bioware and their lying ways!  Time to boycott 'em! Retake Reality! 

"Onward Talimancers, marching off to ******!"  Da-da-da-da-da-dum!

You talk about Talimancers "******" WAY too much.

JakeMacDon wrote...
Well, and I could just be inserting this into this post because, y'know, anything could happen when I'm not writing a post - is that, in the flow of any narrative, it is an assumption made by most people able to suspend their disbelief that other characters in a story, created to exist within that universe and meant by the author to be as vital and alive as the main characters - that not when being directly referenced are actually living beings doing other things like using the bathroom or eating dinner or having relationships, y'know, having lives of their own as separate individuals - and not in a box waiting until needed. 

It's fair to assume things like basic bodily functions, going to the bathroom and what not.  Assuming that two specific characters are having some type of relationship when this is contradicted by the story itself, is not reasonable.  For example, in ME2, if you bring Tali and Garrus on each other's recruitment/loyalty missions, they don't interact at all.  They don't even say "hello" upon first seeing each other.  From here, it simply is not reasonable to suggest that a romantic relationship is developing in the background.  Suggesting otherwise implies that your headcanon/personal fan fiction take precedence over canon.

Now, see, I would have thought this was something everyone knew, but apparently it's only me, much to my newfound chagrin.

JakeMacDon wrote...
No, this "counter" is completely ridiculous because it's not even remotely germaine to anything I've asserted since I've begun.  This is you not having an actual counter-argument.

No, it's actualy very relevant to your point.  Your point is that it is fair to assume things are occuring on outside of the story, even if those things are contradicted by the story itself.

JakeMacDon wrote...Oh, I see.  You know, you could have done something like actually say that the first time.  Regardless, its irrelevant.  As I said, above, there are reasonable assumptions made by an author that the majority of their readers are not cretins and can infer.

It's exactly what I wrote.  Your were so caught up in your assumptions that you did not properly interpret what was actually written.

And actually, if anything, the forcing of a relationship that runs counter to the characters' relationship up until then suggests that perhaps the writers did try to "get one over" on the audience.  You appear to be significantly less intelligent than you think you are.

Look, I'm a troll again.  Typical.  Missed all the banter a romanced Tali makes on the Dreadnought, did we?  Miss the tone of that voice?  She even hands you that arc pistol with a "Oooo, Shepaaaard, loooook" tone, while seductively laying it down for him to see.  He even answers with a tone of "Ooh, baby watchagot?". Naturally, a Dreadnought full of murderous machines that will kill you without the slightest shred of mercy is the absolute perfect place to be pitching woo.  Now that is brilliant writing.

Oy.

As I've written previously in this very thread, I stated, very clearly and without any prompting, that I find the banter between Shepard and Tali on the mission to be inappropriate, given the dire circumstances of the mission.  Again, you are allowing your assumptions get in the way of what someone actually wrote.  You've obviously made up your mind that anyone expressing opinion that runs counter to your own is a "****** Talimancer" and nothing anyone says will change your mind about that, even if what they say directly contradicts your assumptions.

And that is why having a discussion with you is pointless.  From now on, I will only respond to your absurd posts if you first apologize for publicly spewing out this maze of embarrasingly twisted logic for people to read.

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 02 mai 2012 - 06:26 .

[CmnDwnWrkn]

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...
That was the point; you can choose to romance Tali, but others can't choose for Tali and Garrus not to romance each other. Whether they choose to ignore it or not is irrelevant; it happens anyway. It's like me pretending Kal'Reegar isn't dead because I didn't read that email.

Actually, you CAN choose for Tali and Garrus not to romance each other.  Consider this - if you choose not to enter the room, their romance literally DOES NOT HAPPEN.  This is why I laugh when people say it's good to see people doing things without Shep's input.  

Because it IS Shep's input, and Shep's input only, that decides whether or not the Tali/Garrus romance happens.  If Shep chooses to not enter the room, then the code that defines their "relationship" literally does not execute.  It doesn't exist.  It's 100% Shep's option to make that romance happen or not.  How bout that?

[Exousia001]

 WTF?

Just don't go into the room! This is a video game! It's not like they'd be next to you smootching about. If you don't go into the room, it won't trigger! Then you'd never hear it during their conversation on Earth.


Dumb-turd.

[Errationatus]

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

That was the point; you can choose to romance Tali, but others can't choose for Tali and Garrus not to romance each other. Whether they choose to ignore it or not is irrelevant; it happens anyway. It's like me pretending Kal'Reegar isn't dead because I didn't read that email.

People want the ability to tell others in their crew that the things they do in character that you personally disapprove (as Shep) of must stop, so therefore they must obey. Even if it has nothing to do with your (Shep) personally?

 ...and they say I'm projecting.

 
Because you influence your crew mates all the time? And again I point to Joker/EDI as a relevant example.

If I recall, you don't order Joker not to go for EDI.  You simply say it might be a bad idea.  This however, is not the same thing.  In one, you are telling a guy that starting a "relationship" with a fecking robot would be kinda creepy, and the other is interefering in the lives of two adult living people.  I see a rather massive difference there.  I see no reason for the game to give you that ability.  If you want to be a douche, be a renegade all the time.

 
When all your posts contain the phrase "Talifappers" repeated endlessly, and you openly admit to doing it in order to "slap them around" why yes, that would seem like trolling.

Talifapper:  noun. obsessive, creepy sweet-sweat-lickin' Talimancer.  Will not tolerate slightest criticism against their Chicken-In-A-Suit waifu.  They also call criticism of any kind "trolling" 99.9999999% of the time.

Slappin' Them Around:  verb,  the action of being tired of them and their bullsh!t, and their ruining of a potentially great character.  See Talifapper.

Or they could be compared to the arguments against Starchild instead (especially seeing as Starchild is poor writing and Traynor/Cortez are not). Equating people who don't like one facet of a game to people who don't like a different facet for entirely different reasons is very silly.

Like people who use the Joker/EDI analogy over and over?

[Klijpope]

I've not read 13 pages, just the first and the last. So I'm not going to get involved in the arguments that seem to have developed, just offer my impression of the Tali/Garrus hook up.

My 'canon' femshep playthrough had her romancing Liara, then Thane, who died in ME2, then Liara again. The Tali/Garrus getting together felt totally natural. I'd thought so since ME2 that they had potential. So it doesn't look like bad writing from where I'm standing. They had history, and both felt like outsiders from their own cultures (something all the squaddies seem to feel actually, and much of the Normandy crew).

I'd even have let them use my cabin, if they'd asked.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

Klijpope wrote...

I've not read 13 pages, just the first and the last. So I'm not going to get involved in the arguments that seem to have developed, just offer my impression of the Tali/Garrus hook up.

My 'canon' femshep playthrough had her romancing Liara, then Thane, who died in ME2, then Liara again. The Tali/Garrus getting together felt totally natural. I'd thought so since ME2 that they had potential. So it doesn't look like bad writing from where I'm standing. They had history, and both felt like outsiders from their own cultures (something all the squaddies seem to feel actually, and much of the Normandy crew).

I'd even have let them use my cabin, if they'd asked.

How often did you play with Tali and Garrus as your chosen squadmates in ME2?

I played with them for most of the game, which resulted in my observing them for many hours NOT interacting in each others' presence.  

My takeaway was, "Hmm..guess there isn't much going on with these two."

So when I saw them have this fliratious thing going on as soon as Tali joins up, my reaction was, "Wait, where did this come from?"  It seemed to totally contradict their non-relationship in ME2.

Anyway, I get the impression that the LESS you played with them as squadmates in ME2, the less unnatural the pairing seems.

[Errationatus]

[quote]CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

You talk about Talimancers "******" WAY too much.
[/quote]

Ooo - you're a shrink, too!  Well, aren't you a repository of hidden talents?  Try again, B.F.

[quote] 
It's fair to assume things like basic bodily functions, going to the bathroom and what not.  Assuming that two specific characters are having some type of relationship when this is contradicted by the story itself, is not reasonable. 
[/quote] 

Where does it do that?  All of their banter (such as it is) in the last two games could be construed that way while you (Shep) are off pursuing different gals.  Like has been said, we can take it anyway we like.  But you're gonna have to prove it, because you're the one insisting that it didn't happen.

[quote] 
For example, in ME2, if you bring Tali and Garrus on each other's recruitment/loyalty missions, they don't interact at all. 
[/quote] 

How did you get Tali on Garrus' recruitment mission in ME2?  She's not recruitable until after Horizon.  Did you actually wait that long to go get him? Aren't you excitingly different.

[quote] 
They don't even say "hello" upon first seeing each other.
 [/quote] 

Well, hell.  Here's the proof! Discussion over.  Nothing more to be said.

 [quote] 
From here, it simply is not reasonable to suggest that a romantic relationship is developing in the background.  Suggesting otherwise implies that your headcanon/personal fan fiction take precedence over canon.
[/quote] 

Not at all.  Just because I didn't see it (as Shep) does not mean it doesn't happen when I'm down romancing Jack or staring at Miranda's giant rearend, or goggling at how elegant Samara is.  I don't "headcanon" anything.  As I said, it is not unreasonable to assume that these living characters - in universe - are pursuing their lives when we are not there to direct them as how we think they should be living according to our standards.  Who, I ask, is "headcanoning" what here?

[quote] 
No, it's actualy very relevant to your point.  Your point is that it is fair to assume things are occuring on outside of the story, even if those things are contradicted by the story itself.
[/quote] 

A later point.  My initial point was that it was stupid to assume that it was impossible for Garrus and Tali to get together and that the general opinion was "I want my Talicake and the ability to eat it too."  Which is irrelevant to the fact that in game, unromanced, Tali makes her own choices.  I can see how obsessive assh0les are against that sort of thing. Except, according to you, it's not "reality" and she can't unless you're there to tell her how to choose.

[quote] 
It's exactly what I wrote.  Your were so caught up in your assumptions that you did not properly interpret what was actually written.
[/quote] 

As I said, if it had been germaine to what I had been actually saying, I would have treated it as relevant.

[quote] 
And actually, if anything, the forcing of a relationship that runs counter to the characters' relationship up until then suggests that perhaps the writers did try to "get one over" on the audience.  You appear to be significantly less intelligent than you think you are.
[/quote] 

Yeah.  Devilishly witty riposte. Whatever.  Apparently, as you are both an author and a psychologist, you understand these things far better than I.  "Forcing" is a loaded word.  They forced nothing.  Even Shepard is happy for them.  "I never suspected".  Well, how could you, Shep - you've been busy saving the uiniverse.  No time to micromanage every aspect of your friends' lives.  Perfectly understandable.  Oh, wait.  You should have been doing that too, because, hey, Tali for Talimancers alone, and Shep, you a Supreme Meddling Douche, because hey, that's more "real" - and literate. 

[quote]
As I've written previously in this very thread, I stated, very clearly and without any prompting, that I find the banter between Shepard and Tali on the mission to be inappropriate, given the dire circumstances of the mission.  Again, you are allowing your assumptions get in the way of what someone actually wrote. 
[/quote] 

Well, here you have something right. I obviously missed where you said this, so my mistake.  Here, we agree.  But, as you follow up:

 [quote] 
You've obviously made up your mind that anyone expressing opinion that runs counter to your own is a "****** Talimancer" and nothing anyone says will change your mind about that, even if what they say directly contradicts your assumptions.
[/quote] 

...I'm not alone in making assumptions.

[quote] 
And that is why having a discussion with you is pointless. [/quote] 

I'm so crestfallen.  Author, psychologist and erudite all-knowing quality control manager.  It must be frightfully exciting to have all the little peon-ish people 'round to polish your gold-plated behind.  Frightfully.

 [quote] 
 From now on, I will only respond to your absurd posts if you first apologize for publicly spewing out this maze of embarrasingly twisted logic for people to read.

[/quote]

Apologize?  I don't think so.  

One) I don't answer to you,

two) an opinion is just an opinion and I've never said mine are otherwise,  

three), there's nothing wrong with being colourful as opposed to boringly "intellectual" as you pretense to be,

and four) talk about someone having a rather high opinion of themselves.  Let's hope your head's built like a scuba tank to combat the pressure your ego's asserting,

and five) I will probably recover if you deign, gawd-like, not to respond to my boorishness.  It'll be hard and I may need therapy - (can you recommend a good shrink, Doc?) - to get over the massive depression no doubt due to set in upon any further pronouncement/judgement from Thee.

I'll try to soldier on til then.

Modifié par JakeMacDon, 02 mai 2012 - 07:26 .

[RyrineaNara]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Klijpope wrote...

I've not read 13 pages, just the first and the last. So I'm not going to get involved in the arguments that seem to have developed, just offer my impression of the Tali/Garrus hook up.

My 'canon' femshep playthrough had her romancing Liara, then Thane, who died in ME2, then Liara again. The Tali/Garrus getting together felt totally natural. I'd thought so since ME2 that they had potential. So it doesn't look like bad writing from where I'm standing. They had history, and both felt like outsiders from their own cultures (something all the squaddies seem to feel actually, and much of the Normandy crew).

I'd even have let them use my cabin, if they'd asked.

How often did you play with Tali and Garrus as your chosen squadmates in ME2?

I played with them for most of the game, which resulted in my observing them for many hours NOT interacting in each others' presence.  

My takeaway was, "Hmm..guess there isn't much going on with these two."

So when I saw them have this fliratious thing going on as soon as Tali joins up, my reaction was, "Wait, where did this come from?"  It seemed to totally contradict their non-relationship in ME2.

Anyway, I get the impression that the LESS you played with them as squadmates in ME2, the less unnatural the pairing seems.

I hardly played with Garus and tail and never saw it as even a possibility in ME2. To me she and Kal'reger were more likely due to throwing in hints about how Kaidan calls Shepard Ma'am if your a female. He seemed to actually care a little bit more about her in the game than Garus did in ME2. It just felt out of the blue also screw you bioware for killing Kal'reger by email. Ugg just got the fracking Email in game wise. He was my most favorite Qurian other than Tail and it also made more sense to have Kal'reger and Tail to hook up...

[GLR-0053]

Kill them in the suicide mission in ME2.

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

RyrineaNara wrote...

I hardly played with Garus and tail and never saw it as even a possibility in ME2. To me she and Kal'reger were more likely due to throwing in hints about how Kaidan calls Shepard Ma'am if your a female. He seemed to actually care a little bit more about her in the game than Garus did in ME2. It just felt out of the blue also screw you bioware for killing Kal'reger by email. Ugg just got the fracking Email in game wise. He was my most favorite Qurian other than Tail and it also made more sense to have Kal'reger and Tail to hook up...

Okay, I know I said I was going to leave this thread alone (and given some of the most recent posts, 'twas a wise decision), but I just have to pop in one last time to agree with this. I would have liked Tali/Kal'Reegar; it seems far more fitting than Garrus does, at least to me. I was really not happy when not only was Reegar not in the game at all, but also killed by email. A lot of wasted potential there.

Modifié par Mr. Big Pimpin, 02 mai 2012 - 07:45 .

[FOX216BC]

 

[jeweledleah]

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

RyrineaNara wrote...

I hardly played with Garus and tail and never saw it as even a possibility in ME2. To me she and Kal'reger were more likely due to throwing in hints about how Kaidan calls Shepard Ma'am if your a female. He seemed to actually care a little bit more about her in the game than Garus did in ME2. It just felt out of the blue also screw you bioware for killing Kal'reger by email. Ugg just got the fracking Email in game wise. He was my most favorite Qurian other than Tail and it also made more sense to have Kal'reger and Tail to hook up...

Okay, I know I said I was going to leave this thread alone (and given some of the most recent posts, 'twas a wise decision), but I just have to pop in one last time to agree with this. I would have liked Tali/Kal'Reegar; it seems far more fitting than Garrus does. I was really not happy when not only was Reegar not in the game at all, but also killed by email.

this would have been my preference as well.  from what i could see in game - this actualy made a great deal of sence.

alas, for whatever reason (preservation of resource probably being at least one of the motivators) Bioware decided to abandon that plot point.  Sadly, the only way to avoid any other developments in game is to pretend they don't exist.  and headcaonon things you wish were happening instead.  including Kal Reegar's miraculous rescue  (hey, if you are going to go with headcaon - might as well go all the way)

[CmnDwnWrkn]

JakeMacDon wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...
From here, it simply is not reasonable to suggest that a romantic relationship is developing in the background.  Suggesting otherwise implies that your headcanon/personal fan fiction take precedence over canon.

 

Not at all.  Just because I didn't see it (as Shep) does not mean it doesn't happen when I'm down romancing Jack or staring at Miranda's giant rearend, or goggling at how elegant Samara is.  I don't "headcanon" anything.  As I said, it is not unreasonable to assume that these living characters - in universe - are pursuing their lives when we are not there to direct them as how we think they should be living according to our standards.  Who, I ask, is "headcanoning" what here?

 

Since you didn't apologize, I should not be doing this, but I'll be nice and respond to this one thing you wrote.  What you wrote is all well and good, except that we ARE there (potentially, depending on gameplay choices) with the two of them enough to get reasonable snapshots of their behavior, when together, at different points in time.

You suggest they could be off "pursuing their lives" when not with Shep, but when they are with Shep, they do not interact 99% of the time.  How do you rectify that with your argument that they could be off having all sorts of interactions when not with Shep?  They're great friends and they talk all the time, but as soon as they're in Shep's presence, they forget how to speak?  They're so in awe of Shep that they don't even notice that the other is there?  Seriously, what do you tell yourself to explain this discrepancy?

It's not about forcing a fictional character to adhere to OUR standards.  It has everything to do with having an expectation that the characters reasonably adhere to the standards set by the STORY.  In ME2, we were shown two characters that interact only rarely.  And guess what?  If they interact only rarely when around Shep, the only reasonable thing to assume is they interact only rarely or even less when not around him.  Unless you believe Shep has some magical hold on them where they simply are unable to speak to each other when in his presence.

Dominus Solanum wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Saucy Lolita? WTF...this is where I finally figured out you're trolling.  Nice job, you really did have me for a bit.

Usually
you can spot them early. Here's a few of warning signs: people that use
the word "******" more than once in a post, people that use the phrase
"herp-derp" ever, people that try to make the subject a joke to laugh
at how much they care while posting multiple times in said thread,
people vehemently denying being a troll when seemingly doing everything
in their power to be one, people attempting to be overly
snide/intellectual superior to others. 

It's best to ignore these people; they're just going to intice you into interacting with them which was the goal all along. 

You're absolutely right.  Sometimes I just lack the self-control to ignore these people.  It's something for me to work on.

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 02 mai 2012 - 08:07 .

[Pride Demon]

This thread still up? My, my...

Well, to reiterate what I said before, I'd have like it more if Tali ended up with Reegar, too bad he died...
In an e-mail... :/

Also I would have loved it if other squaddies "rejected" by Shep found a significant other.
Seriously, why only Tali and Garrus?