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Reapers: numbers, strategies, intelligence (or lack thereof)


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#76
Subject9x

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a.m.p wrote...

By being very happy? What about the price of it?
What about having to keep fighting and lose more people? What about never knowing all reapers are gone?
I would gladly sacrifice Shepard/the whole squad/Earth if that is what it took to make this option sufficiently bittersweet for everyone. Nobody is suggesting an easy solution. Just a solution that would not be proposed by the enemy.


what I don't get, is people who claim that 'conventional' is too easy; wtf is the crucible!? it's an I-win button. You can't have your cake and eat it too:

If the reapers are eldritch unstoppable horrors, then the writer(s) has been forced into using an I-win device.

If the reapers are eldritch horrors, but can be stopped without I-win, then the writing is much less confined.

which is better?
People who want the reapers to be unstoppable evidently love the I-win lulz crucible device.

#77
incinerator950

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a.m.p wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

We can armchair admiral the battle all we want, the fact is that Bioware wanted to write the battle to be unwinnable conventionally. Even if you find some kind of codex loophole that states "but if the Alliance did X, dead Reapers!" Bioware could simply retcon it away and close it.

Instead of living in fanfic-land, better to live in the story that Bioware wants to tell. (Or not, and return your copy of the game.)

Fanfic land seems to produce much better stories at this time.

And until EC comes out we probably aren't going to find out what story Bioware wanted to tell, because of how confusing the last part of it was.

Seriously. People keep saying that from a storytelling perspective conventional victory should not be possible. Why? What are the themes here? What is the message? How can conventional victory contradict them?

By being very happy? What about the price of it?
What about having to keep fighting and lose more people? What about never knowing all reapers are gone?
I would gladly sacrifice Shepard/the whole squad/Earth if that is what it took to make this option sufficiently bittersweet for everyone. Nobody is suggesting an easy solution. Just a solution that would not be proposed by the enemy.


Compromises are not always sweet.  If you can accept that the Catalyst is correct in your choices, it not only willingly condemns itself, but the Reapers, Geth, and all Synthetic life to Destruction.  

By cold logic, it willingly lets you assume its mantle.  Personally, I prefer when everyone refered to the Catalyst as the Guardian back in the leaked script days.  Taking Control of the Reapers to end the Cycle, and ensure you can provide a better solution then the previous.

Synthesis...I don't like Synthesis.  It makes as much sense as having erectile disfunction when you're not supposed to be.  It's like the concept of the Bydo's Techno-Organic construction, without anything near explainable besides a I understand but do not comprehend it.  Like really, Space Magic worse then Jedi plot Armor or Ultramarines. 

Ultimately its a fluke, because the endings we received were rushed and Mac (imo) desperately wrote an ending that tried to be something bigger to compensate for rushing two hours of gameplay.

#78
a.m.p

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David7204 wrote...

How the hell would Vigil or Javik know about Reaper reproduction? Vigil was intentionally isolated. Javik is just a solider, is he supposed to have a crystal ball?

If either of them told us that there was a prothean reaper (or reapers), then it would be an established fact. They don't, so all we're left with is in-universe speculation that there was no prothean reaper. Out of two cycles we have information about one most likely produced no reapers. Which really puts into question the whole 20000 reapers theory.

#79
a.m.p

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incinerator950 wrote...
Compromises are not always sweet.  If you can accept that the Catalyst is correct in your choices, it not only willingly condemns itself, but the Reapers, Geth, and all Synthetic life to Destruction.  

By cold logic, it willingly lets you assume its mantle.  Personally, I prefer when everyone refered to the Catalyst as the Guardian back in the leaked script days.  Taking Control of the Reapers to end the Cycle, and ensure you can provide a better solution then the previous.

Synthesis...I don't like Synthesis.  It makes as much sense as having erectile disfunction when you're not supposed to be.  It's like the concept of the Bydo's Techno-Organic construction, without anything near explainable besides a I understand but do not comprehend it.  Like really, Space Magic worse then Jedi plot Armor or Ultramarines. 

Ultimately its a fluke, because the endings we received were rushed and Mac (imo) desperately wrote an ending that tried to be something bigger to compensate for rushing two hours of gameplay.

I'm not sure I follow. You are listing the drawbacks of each choice saying they all have a price. Fine. Can I have one more choice with an equally high price?

Or are you saying that since the ending was rushed and generally badly done we simply should not bother talking about it because nothing will fix it?

Modifié par a.m.p, 30 avril 2012 - 07:48 .


#80
Wulfram

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I'm confused. If you're arguing that the reapers aren't all that powerful, why are you suggesting that they outnumber the galaxy by about 30 to 1 in capital ships? Are you suggesting that Sovereign was in fact considerably weaker than a regular Alliance dreadnought?

Modifié par Wulfram, 30 avril 2012 - 07:48 .


#81
a.m.p

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Wulfram wrote...

I'm confused. If you're arguing that the reapers aren't all that powerful, why are you suggesting that they outnumber the galaxy by about 30 to 1 in capital ships? Are you suggesting that Sovereign was in fact considerably weaker than a regular Alliance dreadnought?

I am not suggesting they outnumber the galaxy 30 to 1. I am making different assumptions and looking what numbers those assumptions give us, trying to find the reasonable lower and upper limit. It seems to be around 300 and 3000 respectively.

If I had to pick a number and write a conventional war with it I'd go with about 700 total with the majority in Sol.
If I was allowed to use some retconned lore while doing so and invent even more new weapons (see signature about FTL projectiles) I'd double that number.
If I was allowed to use the citadel as the relay control hub that it is, I'd double it once more.

In any case the prothean example clearly shows that however many there are and however powerful they are, they are beatable.

#82
incinerator950

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a.m.p wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...
Compromises are not always sweet.  If you can accept that the Catalyst is correct in your choices, it not only willingly condemns itself, but the Reapers, Geth, and all Synthetic life to Destruction.  

By cold logic, it willingly lets you assume its mantle.  Personally, I prefer when everyone refered to the Catalyst as the Guardian back in the leaked script days.  Taking Control of the Reapers to end the Cycle, and ensure you can provide a better solution then the previous.

Synthesis...I don't like Synthesis.  It makes as much sense as having erectile disfunction when you're not supposed to be.  It's like the concept of the Bydo's Techno-Organic construction, without anything near explainable besides a I understand but do not comprehend it.  Like really, Space Magic worse then Jedi plot Armor or Ultramarines. 

Ultimately its a fluke, because the endings we received were rushed and Mac (imo) desperately wrote an ending that tried to be something bigger to compensate for rushing two hours of gameplay.

I'm not sure I follow. You are listing the drawbacks of each choice saying they all have a price. Fine. Can I have one more choice with an equally high price?

Or are you saying that since the ending was rushed and generally badly done we simply should not bother talking about it because nothing will fix it?


No you can fix almost everything.  This case will just require a retcon to extensive rewriting, and a few months of budget adding.  Or in the most severe case, a complete redo of a game.  Quite honestly, I don't remember any games doing that.  So a minor retcon will be used the best. 

I'm just trying to make the statement that its unlikely it will be presented in the EC.  Bioware has shown a lack of desire to drastically change what happens.

If it were up to me this entire situation would be different, but you can only do so much with what you have.  So yes, you can have your conventional ending like I can have my Rogue Reaper plans. 

#83
Subject9x

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incinerator950 wrote...
I can have my Rogue Reaper plans.  


you have me intrigued, I must know what your ideas is :D

#84
a.m.p

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incinerator950 wrote...

No you can fix almost everything.  This case will just require a retcon to extensive rewriting, and a few months of budget adding.  Or in the most severe case, a complete redo of a game.  Quite honestly, I don't remember any games doing that.  So a minor retcon will be used the best. 

I'm just trying to make the statement that its unlikely it will be presented in the EC.  Bioware has shown a lack of desire to drastically change what happens.

I maintain that this fix can work with a few extra lines for Hackett and one additional option on the dialogue wheel followed by some cutscenes and cinematics.
So my duty as a concerned customer is to make sure this time they know there is demand for that kind of simple fix, which is what I am trying to do.

And even if all this talking has zero influence on the EC, maybe someone will learn something and not make the same mistakes again. The DA team seems to be interested in all these discussions. Next cycle, all that stuff.

Subject9x wrote...
you have me intrigued, I must know what your ideas is :D

Seconded. As I said, fanfic land produces great stories. Can we hear this one?

Modifié par a.m.p, 30 avril 2012 - 08:17 .


#85
incinerator950

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Subject9x wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...
I can have my Rogue Reaper plans.  


you have me intrigued, I must know what your ideas is :D

The first plan I conceived a while ago was the ME 3 be a campaign of attrition against Reaper forces.

It would start by conventionally getting our asses handed to us, then picking up the slack with Nuclear weapons, Concentrated fire, guerilla strikes.  Followed by detonating Mass Relays in sectors with heavy Reaper concentration away from population homeworlds.  Millions die to save tens of millions. 

Between the war, discover a way to break the Reaper consensus into a conflict with Harbinger.  This results in a Reaper civil war based on the principles that the Cycle is no longer viable. 

The Crucible for when I first heard of it in the codex leak, I thought it was a Mass Relay jurry rigged into a cannon.  In this case, make those.  

The final battle would take place with the remaining forces of the Galaxy, rogue Reapers, fighting Harbinger and the remaining Reapers. 

The end would be based like Fable completely on how well you performed in the game, Galactic Readiness and total Assets, and how well you can command. 


My second Rogue Reaper idea came more into a single Reaper willing to go Rogue.  This has evolved constantly since learning about the Catalyst, as it makes it almost impossible to have one.  Right now, I have it fixated on a Reaper Destroyer named Abbadon, willing to join Shepard.  I'm in the thought process of turning Abbadon into a Hades Cannon Destroyer, because a Capital Reaper would have too much Plot Armor, and a large cannon is always fun to have.  As well as a Reaper for War Assets, you learn more about Reaper processes, and gain a squadmate based off Justice in DAO:A.  

You even make a new friend, aww.

#86
a.m.p

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^That reminds me of the adorable pixel reaper:
Image IPB

Modifié par a.m.p, 30 avril 2012 - 08:29 .


#87
JShepppp

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Great analysis as usual, a.m.p. I personally think the Reapers are definitely above 5,000, but the game seems to take some liberties with stuff in general. I've always been of the personal opinion that we can't win, but perhaps if it was somehow just the battle of earth that might be possible. The presence in the rest of the galaxy, though, makes conventional victory unlikely.

A fair analysis done to the Battle of Earth part. That's something new and fresh on these forums (I know you made a post about it elsewhere, but nice to see it all come together here).

#88
incinerator950

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a.m.p wrote...

^That reminds me of the adorable pixel reaper:
Image IPB

Yeah it is pretty cute.

#89
kleindropper

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Wulfram wrote...

I'm confused. If you're arguing that the reapers aren't all that powerful, why are you suggesting that they outnumber the galaxy by about 30 to 1 in capital ships? Are you suggesting that Sovereign was in fact considerably weaker than a regular Alliance dreadnought?


It says right in the Codex that 4 dreadnoughts can destroy a capital ship Reaper.  Several capital ships are destroyed by the Turian fleets as well as commando raids inside Reaper structures. (read Miracle at Palaven etc...)

Apparently dreadnoughts have gotten upgrades since ME1.  People also forget that the Citadel fleet had to deal with a large geth fleet in ME1, not just Sovereign.  The very fact that Sovereign needed geth help indicates Reapers are less powerful than is commonly thought.

#90
Noelemahc

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The very fact that Sovereign needed geth help indicates Reapers are less powerful than is commonly thought.

Well, there was also only ONE of Sovereign, with no fighter cover, so he used the geth. Capships can't fight effectively without fighter cover, anyone who's ever played a space sim will tell you that. Wing Commander also teaches us that one crafty fighter can disable several capships if he's crafty enough and can produce ammunition out of thin air =P

In ME3, the Reapers use the Collectors' Oculi as fighters, to variable results -- they've been shown in ME2 to have issues with tight cornering and their only advantage over fighters of any galactic race is strength in numbers. They're like the husks among ships, easily killed, marginally weak, but very numerous.

#91
kleindropper

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Noelemahc wrote...

The very fact that Sovereign needed geth help indicates Reapers are less powerful than is commonly thought.

Well, there was also only ONE of Sovereign, with no fighter cover, so he used the geth. Capships can't fight effectively without fighter cover, anyone who's ever played a space sim will tell you that. Wing Commander also teaches us that one crafty fighter can disable several capships if he's crafty enough and can produce ammunition out of thin air =P

In ME3, the Reapers use the Collectors' Oculi as fighters, to variable results -- they've been shown in ME2 to have issues with tight cornering and their only advantage over fighters of any galactic race is strength in numbers. They're like the husks among ships, easily killed, marginally weak, but very numerous.


Well now I'm reading about dreadnoughts and apparently the Alliance navy (one of the most powerful militarys in the galaxy) has a grand total of 8 in service (or equiv. to 2 Reapers).   Even if the Reapers only number in the hundreds, they would likely badly outclass the combined forces of the galaxy.

#92
incinerator950

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kleindropper wrote...

Noelemahc wrote...

The very fact that Sovereign needed geth help indicates Reapers are less powerful than is commonly thought.

Well, there was also only ONE of Sovereign, with no fighter cover, so he used the geth. Capships can't fight effectively without fighter cover, anyone who's ever played a space sim will tell you that. Wing Commander also teaches us that one crafty fighter can disable several capships if he's crafty enough and can produce ammunition out of thin air =P

In ME3, the Reapers use the Collectors' Oculi as fighters, to variable results -- they've been shown in ME2 to have issues with tight cornering and their only advantage over fighters of any galactic race is strength in numbers. They're like the husks among ships, easily killed, marginally weak, but very numerous.


Well now I'm reading about dreadnoughts and apparently the Alliance navy (one of the most powerful militarys in the galaxy) has a grand total of 8 in service (or equiv. to 2 Reapers).   Even if the Reapers only number in the hundreds, they would likely badly outclass the combined forces of the galaxy.


Another problem lies in the codex history.  When the Reapers hit Arcturus, they sent 12 Capitals and whatever support craft.  That was more then enough to bog down the 2nd, 3rd, and 5th fleet.  The 2nd fleet was sacrificed to provide cover for the 3rd and 5th fleet. 

The Charon Relay, was being garrisoned and defended by the 1st Fleet.  They retreated when they used a 10th of their fleet to draw fire.  The 4th fleet was stationed over Earth and was completely eradicated.  The 6th and 7th Fleet were bypassed at Terra Nova and Eden Prime, and the 8th Fleet was mostly destroyed regrouping somewhere randomly.  I'm assuming the remnants of the 8th fleet and possibly scouting ships are what you pick up for Alliance Assets, and the 7th Fleet is actually Shield Fleet in the ending.

Regardless, the Alliance got its ass kicked for the most part of the war.

#93
Raynulf

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Noelemahc wrote...


The very fact that Sovereign needed geth help indicates Reapers are less powerful than is commonly thought.

Well, there was also only ONE of Sovereign, with no fighter cover, so he used the geth. Capships can't fight effectively without fighter cover, anyone who's ever played a space sim will tell you that. Wing Commander also teaches us that one crafty fighter can disable several capships if he's crafty enough and can produce ammunition out of thin air =P

In ME3, the Reapers use the Collectors' Oculi as fighters, to variable results -- they've been shown in ME2 to have issues with tight cornering and their only advantage over fighters of any galactic race is strength in numbers. They're like the husks among ships, easily killed, marginally weak, but very numerous.


If you want a comparible strategy game to ME3: Sins of a Solar Empire.

Essentially the game world is comprised of a web of 'jump lanes' between planets, creating natural choke points and supply lines. Which is pretty much how the relay network would play out.


As an aside: It's also generally established that kinetic barriers aren't on/off affairs. When something collides with your shields, you lose shield capacity. Small hits mean a small loss, big hits mean a big loss. This is how it works with Shepard, with husks, with starships and almost certainly with reapers.

The reapers have an advantage of higher shield regen than everyone else, but concentrated fire can overwhelm that, with the yardstick in the codex being "Four Dreadnoughts"... of course, any combination of weapons fire that adds up to the same kinetic power (energy/second) will also do the trick.


As far as fleet composition goes:

Reapers like capital ships way bigger than dreadnoughts - because it being bigger and badder reduces the individual's chances of destruction, which is important given how hard a time they have reproducing.

Organics like frigates and cruisers, because they allow versatility of your navy and avoid putting 'too many eggs in one basket' in terms of both credits and personnel.

Both are perfectly reasonable strategically and tactically. Just different.

In fact, given that organic ships go pop really easily, you could argue that splitting up your fleet 'power' into as many hulls as possible is the best alternative, as not only are you more maneuverable but the reapers do less overall damage per shot.

Point being? Comparisons of Reaper CapShips vs Allied Dreadnoughts is not a particularly valid argument without out also attempting to include data-that-doesn't-exist on the numbers and firepower of all the smaller classes of ships.

So really it just boils down to "Shoot them enough and they die", with "enough" being a question of effort and cost.

#94
Joccaren

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Noelemahc wrote...

Well, there was also only ONE of Sovereign, with no fighter cover, so he used the geth. Capships can't fight effectively without fighter cover, anyone who's ever played a space sim will tell you that. Wing Commander also teaches us that one crafty fighter can disable several capships if he's crafty enough and can produce ammunition out of thin air =P

In ME3, the Reapers use the Collectors' Oculi as fighters, to variable results -- they've been shown in ME2 to have issues with tight cornering and their only advantage over fighters of any galactic race is strength in numbers. They're like the husks among ships, easily killed, marginally weak, but very numerous.


Have you ever heard of Guardian defences?
They're these things that Capital Ships have that destroy any fighters that get close to them. The Geth Dreadnought used UV Guardian Lasers. The Reapers are even more powerful than those. Any ship that gets near the Reaper is obliterated - fighter, frigate, cruiser or dreadnought.

Read up on the space fight tactics in the Codex. Actual fights are NOTHING like what was displayed in the final scene. Bioware went the Star Wars route as they thought it would look more cool.

#95
a.m.p

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Raynulf wrote...

If you want a comparible strategy game to ME3: Sins of a Solar Empire.

Essentially the game world is comprised of a web of 'jump lanes' between planets, creating natural choke points and supply lines. Which is pretty much how the relay network would play out.

I can add one. Haegemonia. That had naturally occuring wormholes and could be easily won by routinely dropping a couple military bases at each wormhole leading to hostile territory.


As far as fleet composition goes:

Reapers like capital ships way bigger than dreadnoughts - because it being bigger and badder reduces the individual's chances of destruction, which is important given how hard a time they have reproducing.

Organics like frigates and cruisers, because they allow versatility of your navy and avoid putting 'too many eggs in one basket' in terms of both credits and personnel.

Both are perfectly reasonable strategically and tactically. Just different.

In fact, given that organic ships go pop really easily, you could argue that splitting up your fleet 'power' into as many hulls as possible is the best alternative, as not only are you more maneuverable but the reapers do less overall damage per shot.

Point being? Comparisons of Reaper CapShips vs Allied Dreadnoughts is not a particularly valid argument without out also attempting to include data-that-doesn't-exist on the numbers and firepower of all the smaller classes of ships.

So really it just boils down to "Shoot them enough and they die", with "enough" being a question of effort and cost.


Thank you for this. I attempted to argue something similar a while ago but for some reason people are adamant that only four dreadnaughts can kill one sov-class.
If anything, the thanix cannons should allow smaller ships more firepower, so the real question is how many cruisers do we need to kill one sov-class.

#96
a.m.p

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Joccaren wrote...

Noelemahc wrote...

Well, there was also only ONE of Sovereign, with no fighter cover, so he used the geth. Capships can't fight effectively without fighter cover, anyone who's ever played a space sim will tell you that. Wing Commander also teaches us that one crafty fighter can disable several capships if he's crafty enough and can produce ammunition out of thin air =P

In ME3, the Reapers use the Collectors' Oculi as fighters, to variable results -- they've been shown in ME2 to have issues with tight cornering and their only advantage over fighters of any galactic race is strength in numbers. They're like the husks among ships, easily killed, marginally weak, but very numerous.


Have you ever heard of Guardian defences?
They're these things that Capital Ships have that destroy any fighters that get close to them. The Geth Dreadnought used UV Guardian Lasers. The Reapers are even more powerful than those. Any ship that gets near the Reaper is obliterated - fighter, frigate, cruiser or dreadnought.

Read up on the space fight tactics in the Codex. Actual fights are NOTHING like what was displayed in the final scene. Bioware went the Star Wars route as they thought it would look more cool.

We're aware of this and aware that ships have to shoot outside GARDIAN range. It all comes down to numbers which we don't have.
In any case, there are lore-based solutions to this problem.
Thanix seems to have longer range then GARDIAN.
Can't get close at sublight? Hit them with FTL projectiles.
And so on.

#97
Elyiia

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If anything, the thanix cannons should allow smaller ships more
firepower, so the real question is how many cruisers do we need to kill
one sov-class.


If you can find how much a cruiser hits for, you could work it out.

And on the topic of retconned lore, antimatter weapons would have given us a clear advantage. But they managed to disappear between ME1 and ME2.

#98
Noelemahc

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Raynulf, why is everything you write so awesome? I wish I could analyze like that =(

Have you ever heard of Guardian defences?
They're these things that Capital Ships have that destroy any fighters that get close to them. The Geth Dreadnought used UV Guardian Lasers. The Reapers are even more powerful than those. Any ship that gets near the Reaper is obliterated - fighter, frigate, cruiser or dreadnought.

With the amount of exposure and technobabble discussion GARDIAN lasers get in all three games, you'd expect them to play a role at some point. Just as the lengthy lecture on how limb regrowth functions (which theoretically is supposed to lead into Shepard being crippled if he/she survives the Crucible) in Huerta, or the ungodly amount of times cyberwarfare is mentioned, but never actually takes place on screen.

And on the topic of retconned lore, antimatter weapons would have given us a clear advantage. But they managed to disappear between ME1 and ME2.

They made every conscious effort to paint the Crucible as the only option, huh?

If anything, the thanix cannons should allow smaller ships more firepower, so the real question is how many cruisers do we need to kill one sov-class.

I don't think I actually saw much thanix in the cutscenes of the battle for Earth, although by that moment, it should'a been standard issue on human and turian ships. STANDARD ISSUE.

#99
incinerator950

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Noelemahc wrote...

Raynulf, why is everything you write so awesome? I wish I could analyze like that =(

Have you ever heard of Guardian defences?
They're these things that Capital Ships have that destroy any fighters that get close to them. The Geth Dreadnought used UV Guardian Lasers. The Reapers are even more powerful than those. Any ship that gets near the Reaper is obliterated - fighter, frigate, cruiser or dreadnought.

With the amount of exposure and technobabble discussion GARDIAN lasers get in all three games, you'd expect them to play a role at some point. Just as the lengthy lecture on how limb regrowth functions (which theoretically is supposed to lead into Shepard being crippled if he/she survives the Crucible) in Huerta, or the ungodly amount of times cyberwarfare is mentioned, but never actually takes place on screen.

And on the topic of retconned lore, antimatter weapons would have given us a clear advantage. But they managed to disappear between ME1 and ME2.

They made every conscious effort to paint the Crucible as the only option, huh?

If anything, the thanix cannons should allow smaller ships more firepower, so the real question is how many cruisers do we need to kill one sov-class.

I don't think I actually saw much thanix in the cutscenes of the battle for Earth, although by that moment, it should'a been standard issue on human and turian ships. STANDARD ISSUE.


Unless the first few rounds hitting the Capitals were Thanix Weapons (didn't look like it), there weren't any Thanix weapons in ME 3 present. 

No Anti-Matter Weapons, Thanix Weapons reduced to a codex roll, Fighters and Frigates shooting missiles and little lasers, and Nuclear Weapons being renedered useless by two conversations. 

As for Thanix Weaponry being Standard issue, they're not.  They were originally designed for Frigates and Fighters for Firepower upgrades.  Afterwords, they initially began larger production as hull mounted weapons and a few rare cases like the Kwunu.  Thanix Weapons didn't make it past the prototype stage until somewhere between ME 1 and ME 2, and in ME 2 it was supposed to be a Prototype weapon the Turians had.

#100
Noelemahc

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Well, I did say "should'a". Did Shepard's foray into Omega IV go that undetected? Did he install the only prototype onto the Normandy which he beforehand had to Mission-Impossible out of a secure facility, destroying the blueprints in the process? Did Garrus's task force not say "Thanix kills Reapers good, Thanix good, install Thanix, live long and prosperous"? Oh, right, nobody listens to the experts until it's time to blame them for not helping =)