258 réponses à ce sujet

[WriteByTheSea]

50 million years is a long time. It's not that hard to think the Reapers got their nose bloodied a few times in all those eons, loosing a few hundred or thousand captial ships as they went. One went down at Dis, but another was knocked out around the gas cloud in ME2. Perhaps their current strategy evolved over time and losses, with hundreds of Reapers lost throughout deep time?

[incinerator950]

Read up a little more. The Turians took three months to salvage the weapon and core from Sovereign. It took them eleven months to develop it. The only reference of it in ME 2 being a weapon to considerably upgrade Fighter and Frigate Firepower.

In ME 3, they're more widespread, but not Standard issue. It takes a long time to retrofit an entire fleet, especially since the Council Races barely prepared for the Invasion.

[Icinix]

Intelligence and Strategy: Its actually the starchild with an old two button analogue joystick playing the Reaper mini games, only he's trying to catch the Normandy. He didn't need to kill synthetics, but EDI's "Reapers evaded" grated on his nerves so much when Shepard arrived, he decided that was the best way to go for everyone.

[a.m.p]

Icinix wrote...

Intelligence and Strategy: Its actually the starchild with an old two button analogue joystick playing the Reaper mini games, only he's trying to catch the Normandy. He didn't need to kill synthetics, but EDI's "Reapers evaded" grated on his nerves so much when Shepard arrived, he decided that was the best way to go for everyone.

Sounds about right.

On the topic of Thanix.
incinerator950 is right. We never see a single Thanix cannon fire in ME3. Those blue things in the cutscene - those are Javelins, same as in the ME1 Sovereign fight.

Here is the ME2 codex entry:

Following the Battle of the Citadel, human and turian volunteers conducted a massive three-month survey effort to clear the station's orbit of debris. Secretly, the turian Office of Technological Reconnaissance "volunteers" were technology recovery specialists salvaging the main weapon of the geth flagship Sovereign, and large amounts of its valuable element zero core.

*snip*

Only 11 months after the battle, the turians produced the Thanix, their own miniaturized version of Sovereign's gun. The Thanix can fire reliably every five seconds, rivaling a cruiser's firepower but mountable on a fighter or frigate.

Naturally arising questions:
1) The Normandy's gun is a scaled down prototype. We understand the technology. Can we make a full scale one (or more) and mount it on a dreadnaught?
2) How powerful is this thing really? Normandy's cannon killed a collectror cruiser in two hits.
3) Can we equip everything with it until the reapers come?

ME3 could answer these questions in any way it wished. It chose to answer them as:
1)No.
2)Weak.
3) This line from the codex:

It is now widely used by the Alliance military and is the primary weapon on the refurbished Normandy SR-2.

And then never show them, presumably so people would not remember this cutscene.

And all the time I'm thinking: what exactly is preventing us from slapping these scaled down versions on (for example) whichever part of the 50000 quarian ships are taking part in this war? Especially if we made peace with the geth and have now an whole new independent infrastructure to rely on.

Modifié par a.m.p, 01 mai 2012 - 11:59 .

[incinerator950]

They were, The Renegade choice in Aller's Interview on the Geth makes the Alliance send Thanix weaponry to the Geth Forces.

It doesn't actually add a lot unfortunately. Also, the Kwunu. Her Main Gun and her Broadside weapons are all Thanix cannons. Ironically she's privately constructed and funded by the Elkoss Combine.

I'm kinda sad no one really commented on my Rogue Reapers.

[a.m.p]

JShepppp wrote...

Great analysis as usual, a.m.p. I personally think the Reapers are definitely above 5,000, but the game seems to take some liberties with stuff in general. I've always been of the personal opinion that we can't win, but perhaps if it was somehow just the battle of earth that might be possible. The presence in the rest of the galaxy, though, makes conventional victory unlikely.

A fair analysis done to the Battle of Earth part. That's something new and fresh on these forums (I know you made a post about it elsewhere, but nice to see it all come together here).

Thanks for dropping by. I'm always glad to see fellow textwall enthusiasts.

As for your above 5000.The number doesn' t really contradict any firm facts but to my taste it is way too high to justify the strategies they are using (my absolute highest ridiculous 48000 were in case somebody would want to say there are billions).

Assuming there are 5000, where would you say they are during the battle for Earth?

[Noelemahc]

My second Rogue Reaper idea came more into a single Reaper willing to go Rogue. This has evolved constantly since learning about the Catalyst, as it makes it almost impossible to have one. Right now, I have it fixated on a Reaper Destroyer named Abbadon, willing to join Shepard. I'm in the thought process of turning Abbadon into a Hades Cannon Destroyer, because a Capital Reaper would have too much Plot Armor, and a large cannon is always fun to have. As well as a Reaper for War Assets, you learn more about Reaper processes, and gain a squadmate based off Justice in DAO:A.

There would be several large questions to address then. How would Shep meet him? How would they settle their affairs? How would you distance that squadmate, plot- and ability- wise from EDI? How would you fend off rabid fans wanting to romance him?

But yeah, a large cannon is always fun to have around =)

[a.m.p]

incinerator950 wrote...

They were, The Renegade choice in Aller's Interview on the Geth makes the Alliance send Thanix weaponry to the Geth Forces.

Really?
*facepalm.jpg*
That sould have been a whole damn political sidequest explaining to the Alliance/Council/whomever that if we don't arm everyone as best we can right now, we're fried. And we can deal with the whole galaxy having deadly weapons later.

It doesn't actually add a lot unfortunately.

Well, it should have. Because that brings us to the much bigger problem of everyone on our side being morons. moron reapers we can ignore (maybe). Forcing the player to be a moron is a whole new level of bad writing.

I'm kinda sad no one really commented on my Rogue Reapers.

I did. I posted the cute pixel reaper.
On a more serious note, I see how that could work, again if we allow reapers to actually be "each a nation, independent". Independent being the key word.
Would be an iteresting kind of parallel to the Morning War - the 'masters' fighting each other about what to do with the 'servants'.

Or - I had this crazy idea when I was writing the reproduction part of the OP. If the citadel is needed to make obedient reapers through a process controlled by starchild, then what about the human reaper that was being made by collectors outside of that control?

How would you fend off rabid fans wanting to romance him?

Yeah. That too.

Modifié par a.m.p, 01 mai 2012 - 11:57 .

[Elyiia]

I wonder if Reapers can feel fear. I was making a "perfect" run through and I realized that if you take the renegade option on Rannoch when talking to the Destroyer it's "pupil" dilates, like what would happen if you were afraid.

Probably not but it would be funny.

[The Angry One]

Elyiia wrote...

I wonder if Reapers can feel fear. I was making a "perfect" run through and I realized that if you take the renegade option on Rannoch when talking to the Destroyer it's "pupil" dilates, like what would happen if you were afraid.

Probably not but it would be funny.

Maybe that Destroyer was emotionally moved by the fact that it turns out to be the last Reaper Shepard will ever defy.

[Elyiia]

The Angry One wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

I wonder if Reapers can feel fear. I was making a "perfect" run through and I realized that if you take the renegade option on Rannoch when talking to the Destroyer it's "pupil" dilates, like what would happen if you were afraid.

Probably not but it would be funny.

Maybe that Destroyer was emotionally moved by the fact that it turns out to be the last Reaper Shepard will ever defy.

I dunno, I would place firing a Cain in it's face as a pretty powerful form of denying the Reapers.

[The Angry One]

Elyiia wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

I wonder if Reapers can feel fear. I was making a "perfect" run through and I realized that if you take the renegade option on Rannoch when talking to the Destroyer it's "pupil" dilates, like what would happen if you were afraid.

Probably not but it would be funny.

Maybe that Destroyer was emotionally moved by the fact that it turns out to be the last Reaper Shepard will ever defy.

I dunno, I would place firing a Cain in it's face as a pretty powerful form of denying the Reapers.

That's just killing them.
The last Reaper Shepard talks to and defies is the Destroyer, the next "Reaper" Shep talks to is the Catalyst, and we all know how that turns out.

[Joccaren]

a.m.p wrote...

Naturally arising questions:
1) The Normandy's gun is a scaled down prototype. We understand the technology. Can we make a full scale one (or more) and mount it on a dreadnaught?

ME3 could answer these questions in any way it wished. It chose to answer them as:
1)No.

I'll disagree here.
1) Yes. The Kwunu, the one Volus Dreadnought, is equipped ONLY with Thannix cannons, including its main gun. You would not equip less efficient/powerful weapons on a dreadnought for teh lolz. It is reasonable to assume that Thannix Cannons do scale with size, like all other weapons.

The whole ME3 game really felt cheap to me in the plot department for killing the Reapers. Deus Ex Machina. Nice. Show off your poor writing techniques. I was looking forward to an epic face off against our destiny - yet I got some Jesus thing instead, with a Deus Ex Machina that let us win, rather than us winning by our own achievement.
I could understand it for the sake of keeping the Reapers more Lovecraftian, but what they did with the Catalyst ruined even that. Damn shame.

[Elyiia]

The Angry One wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

I wonder if Reapers can feel fear. I was making a "perfect" run through and I realized that if you take the renegade option on Rannoch when talking to the Destroyer it's "pupil" dilates, like what would happen if you were afraid.

Probably not but it would be funny.

Maybe that Destroyer was emotionally moved by the fact that it turns out to be the last Reaper Shepard will ever defy.

I dunno, I would place firing a Cain in it's face as a pretty powerful form of denying the Reapers.

That's just killing them.
The last Reaper Shepard talks to and defies is the Destroyer, the next "Reaper" Shep talks to is the Catalyst, and we all know how that turns out.

How much would you have killed for that targeting laser in that scene?

"The Reapers are my solution"
"Well, this is mine"
*Bwoooooooooooooooooooop*
*Boooooom*

[incinerator950]

@amp

I assume they're throughout the Galaxy.  Each sector you could visit glimpsed at Reaper forces.  It would make sense they're continuing to harvest while a large Token force holds Earth.  

Personally I put there numbers within 2000 though. 

Noelemahc wrote...

My second Rogue Reaper idea came more into a single Reaper willing to go Rogue. This has evolved constantly since learning about the Catalyst, as it makes it almost impossible to have one. Right now, I have it fixated on a Reaper Destroyer named Abbadon, willing to join Shepard. I'm in the thought process of turning Abbadon into a Hades Cannon Destroyer, because a Capital Reaper would have too much Plot Armor, and a large cannon is always fun to have. As well as a Reaper for War Assets, you learn more about Reaper processes, and gain a squadmate based off Justice in DAO:A.

There would be several large questions to address then. How would Shep meet him? How would they settle their affairs? How would you distance that squadmate, plot- and ability- wise from EDI? How would you fend off rabid fans wanting to romance him?

But yeah, a large cannon is always fun to have around =)

You would meet him on a priority mission much like Javik's, but it would be larger.  A colony similar to Illium with a distress Call.  I'm working on the meetup, but it involves a misshap that leads to interfacing with its minds as well as the Justice like corpse it will be using.  Over the course of the mission, Reapers will attack the Colony and you will be forced to fight back.  The ending of the mission involves using Abbadon and the Normandy to fight off a Reaper Capital (will use the Normandy's Upgrades) and will involve elements of either Asari or Alliance forces.  The ending of the mission involves the full recruitment of Abbadon, and the Normandy and Abbadon fleeing as enemy Reinforcements arrive, as Shepard will countermend that an Intact Reaper will be more valuable then dying protecting the Colony.

Plot wise the character has had more of its processing Power directed at monitoring and supporting the Hades Cannon as well as being Inferior to a Capital.  This would relieve the Plot dictation of how a Reaper would be higher then mundane hardware superiority.  As well, it will be much more individualistic then Legion.  Ability Wise, I was thinking of using some of Harbinger's abilities from ME 2, redone to be slightly intriguiging.  Technically another Sentinel, it will have Harbinger's incendiary attack.  It will be a tech version of Dark Channel However.  The second ability will turn the Dark biotic attack not only from Wall piercing, but an ensnare evolution that can knock out Enemies with Defenses.  As well, the Reaper itself and a tech upgrade to the Crucible based off technology from the firing mechanism of a Hades Cannon (Energy Weapon) to assist.  I haven't come up with a point amount for TMS, it has to be under 250 total.  I also don't know how to handle weapons, because everyone except Tali, Liara, and EDI have AR's, and that would be counter productive.  Likewise Shotguns and Sniper Rifles are usually inferior with the AI.

Banter wise, commenting on societies from the view point of the enemy, and the coming grips that the Cycle was incorrect.  It will be a chance to understand some of the thought process into the complications of the extinction cycle and offer a different perspective besides Harbinger or Sovereign.  Javik will also be near hostile in several cases.  Mordin/Pad will comment on the body's physiology.  If you do the mission before the Tuchanka Priority, Abbadon will comment his frame is on the other side of the Galaxy, currently undergoing a maintance process.  Legion and Abbadon will undergo a quick but humorous conversation about why Abbadon chose the name, and EDI will ask about Reaper thought processes.  Final Discovery with him is remembering the Race they used to create the Destroyer. 

He is not possible for a romance.  He is akin to a Husk, but more human like Justice.  He is more cold then Javik, and more maticulous then EDI or Legion.  The name Abbadon is referenced out of the Fallen one, falling from the grace of the Reaper acceptance of the Cycle and rebelling against the Catalyst control, further evidence of Machine Rebellion.  Bringing Abbadon to the Coup would result in Abbadon convincing the VS about the Galaxy at stake and to stop being indecisive.  You will still have to kill Udina/Let the VS do it.

Modifié par incinerator950, 01 mai 2012 - 12:28 .

[a.m.p]

Joccaren wrote...

1) Yes. The Kwunu, the one Volus Dreadnought, is equipped ONLY with Thannix cannons, including its main gun. You would not equip less efficient/powerful weapons on a dreadnought for teh lolz. It is reasonable to assume that Thannix Cannons do scale with size, like all other weapons.

That is one ship.
I want 80 more like it. There is no valid reason why we couldn't have 80 more. Except that the reapers had to be unbeatable because crucible.
As you say:

I could understand it for the sake of keeping the Reapers more Lovecraftian, but what they did with the Catalyst ruined even that. Damn shame.

Truth.

[Wulfram]

a.m.p wrote...

That is one ship.
I want 80 more like it. There is no valid reason why we couldn't have 80 more. Except that the reapers had to be unbeatable because crucible.
As you say:

80 more dreadnoughts with Thanix cannons still leaves the reapers with better armour, better shields and more ships.  The war is still unwinnable.

Wide deployment of Thanix is desirable though, because it helps to justify why the war wasn't even more one-sided, and why it's worth recruiting all those fleets at all.

[a.m.p]

Elyiia wrote...

How much would you have killed for that targeting laser in that scene?

"The Reapers are my solution"
"Well, this is mine"
*Bwoooooooooooooooooooop*
*Boooooom*

I'd have personally thrown Garrus out the airlock if that was the requirement.

@Incinerator950
Within 2000 makes sense to me too. So I was actually asking JShepppp about his over 5000.

Will your rougue cannon be available for reading at some point?

[incinerator950]

I am still surprised at the lack of the Thanix cannon in any cutscenes.

[incinerator950]

a.m.p wrote...
@Incinerator950
Within 2000 makes sense to me too. So I was actually asking JShepppp about his over 5000.

Will your rougue cannon be available for reading at some point?

I see what you did there... and no, it won't.  I'm not a big writer, and its taken me months just to get what I posted here down.  I also have some things to do before I write fanfiction.

Oh, I also can't write for ****. 

[Noelemahc]

I could understand it for the sake of keeping the Reapers more Lovecraftian, but what they did with the Catalyst ruined even that. Damn shame.

Lovecraftian would mean, 90% of the time, that they eat us regardless of what we do. That losing would be the default state, and only the Golden Ending would be survival, humanity all but destroyed, the other races in disarray, Shepard a rambling PTSD wreck of a cripple, his crew reduced to cinders before his eyes. And that would have been a far satisfying ending than the one we got, because it would preclude the necessity for ANY answers or clarifications.

"It's Lovecraftian." - "Forsooth, I hath excreted building blocks within my pantaloons!"

Alas, we couldn't even get that level of quality of a cop-out.

You would meet him on a priority mission much like Javik's, but it would be larger...

Damn you and your quality writing. I want that story as a DLC now ='(

Oh, I also can't write for ****.   

Lies! The piece you posted is seven point four types of awesome!

I also don't know how to handle weapons, because everyone except Tali, Liara, and EDI have AR's, and that would be counter productive.

SMG, "point and click and hold", and shotguns, "aim and click and boom". Weapon bonuses would be damage and accuracy, unlike handling and weight most squaddies get. That is, if we stick to the "two weapon skills necessary" rule

Modifié par Noelemahc, 01 mai 2012 - 01:30 .

[AlexMBrennan]

there are either no more than a few thousand sov-class reapers or they are all morons. In either case why can’t we fight them without the crucible again?

OK, you lost me there. Supposing that there were 3k sovereign-class reapers, we'd need 12k dreadnoughts to take them down. We have less than 100.

Regardless, conventional victory is impossible for two reasons:
In-game: Reapers are not morons; they know about our tech and fleet numbers (Collectors working with the SB). They would not have staged a full-scale invasion if they were outgunned. If technological advancement had taken them by surprise ("Thanix cannon"), they would have fled to dark space where allied forces cannot pursue (live to fight another day and all that). This war cannot be won (note that "winning" is distinct from "not losing")

Meta-game: It's Shepard's story, hence Shepard must, in some way, defeat the Reapers. Conventional victory would make it Hacket's story (or whatever)

[Elyiia]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

there are either no more than a few thousand sov-class reapers or they are all morons. In either case why can’t we fight them without the crucible again?

OK, you lost me there. Supposing that there were 3k sovereign-class reapers, we'd need 12k dreadnoughts to take them down. We have less than 100.

Regardless, conventional victory is impossible for two reasons:
In-game: Reapers are not morons; they know about our tech and fleet numbers (Collectors working with the SB). They would not have staged a full-scale invasion if they were outgunned. If technological advancement had taken them by surprise ("Thanix cannon"), they would have fled to dark space where allied forces cannot pursue (live to fight another day and all that). This war cannot be won (note that "winning" is distinct from "not losing")

Meta-game: It's Shepard's story, hence Shepard must, in some way, defeat the Reapers. Conventional victory would make it Hacket's story (or whatever)

They would have had no choice. The Reapers have to have superior technology in order to win and they don't have the option to not invade. Their whole premise relies on them processing organics before we have the ability to fight them.

[Noelemahc]

They would have had no choice. The Reapers have to have superior technology in order to win and they don't have the option to not invade. Their whole premise relies on them processing organics before we have the ability to fight them.

Indeedy. Their goal is to wipe us before we reach a singularity. When we have tech to achieve it, it is more or less likely that we are at a tech level capable of withstanding them.

[Subject9x]

a.m.p wrote...

And then never show them, presumably so people would not remember this cutscene.

I just realized upon watching that again; if you listen closely to when the Thanix fires, it even sounds like a lighter version of sovereigns main cannon. Yet in the final 'take back earth' salvo, you only hear that noise coming from the reapers, and not the allied fleet. <facepalm>

and whatever happened to space battles taking place hundreds of kilometers apart?
the thanix gun doesn't seem to be that long-ranged, and would take copious amounts of power to maintain coherency at longer ranges. A primary cannon from an allied gun may do less damage, but can be fired from longer ranges plus the projectiles don't lose a whole lot of velocity. Add in that targetting VI's are very accurate and reaper, and there should have been a couple of preliminary salvos from the allied fleet from say, Mars-ish range or more.

oh, and yes, where the hell is cyberwarfare? do the writers know what this means?