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Reapers: numbers, strategies, intelligence (or lack thereof)


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#151
Elyiia

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incinerator950 wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

I disagree, without the Citadel we'd need a different central hub. It would have been rather interesting to run missions out of say Omega. Of course that would require Cerberus not taking it. But still, with the importance placed on it in ME1, it shouldn't have been left until the very end for the Reapers to take it.

But that would raise the big question why they can't fix the relay control mechanism in weeks or even months. Well, actually the question is already there, but that way it would be even more glaring.


But that invalidates the whole plot of ME1, if they can't fix it in a reasonable time then in ME1 why did Sovereign even bother going to the Citadel in the first place?

Because they could still use the Dark Space Relay, and all Sovereign needed was a puppet to open them. 


So they can control the Dark Space Relay, but not the normal relay system? It still seems incredibly forced.
Besides even without the relay, they need the Citadel to access census data which was deemed important enough to mention in ME1.

#152
a.m.p

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Elyiia wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

I disagree, without the Citadel we'd need a different central hub. It would have been rather interesting to run missions out of say Omega. Of course that would require Cerberus not taking it. But still, with the importance placed on it in ME1, it shouldn't have been left until the very end for the Reapers to take it.

But that would raise the big question why they can't fix the relay control mechanism in weeks or even months. Well, actually the question is already there, but that way it would be even more glaring.


But that invalidates the whole plot of ME1, if they can't fix it in a reasonable time then in ME1 why did Sovereign even bother going to the Citadel in the first place?

That too. That's why losing the citadel should be game over.
I wonder if at some point in development the final battle was supposed to be taking place in the Serpent Nebula and not in Sol, with the reapers attacking and the fleet defending it.
Actually the more I look at all this, the more I feel like not just the ending but the whole crucible plot was written later than everything else in the game.

#153
incinerator950

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a.m.p wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

I disagree, without the Citadel we'd need a different central hub. It would have been rather interesting to run missions out of say Omega. Of course that would require Cerberus not taking it. But still, with the importance placed on it in ME1, it shouldn't have been left until the very end for the Reapers to take it.

But that would raise the big question why they can't fix the relay control mechanism in weeks or even months. Well, actually the question is already there, but that way it would be even more glaring.


But that invalidates the whole plot of ME1, if they can't fix it in a reasonable time then in ME1 why did Sovereign even bother going to the Citadel in the first place?

That too. That's why losing the citadel should be game over.
I wonder if at some point in development the final battle was supposed to be taking place in the Serpent Nebula and not in Sol, with the reapers attacking and the fleet defending it.
Actually the more I look at all this, the more I feel like not just the ending but the whole crucible plot was written later than everything else in the game.


Not really a surprise.

#154
Subject9x

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a.m.p wrote...
That too. That's why losing the citadel should be game over.
I wonder if at some point in development the final battle was supposed to be taking place in the Serpent Nebula and not in Sol, with the reapers attacking and the fleet defending it.
Actually the more I look at all this, the more I feel like not just the ending but the whole crucible plot was written later than everything else in the game.


To me, upon mulling over the plot for a few weeks (read: ending left me searching for answers to the 'speculations.') I began to realize: ME3 feels like it was written by a fan of ME, and not an actual writer of ME. Harsh? maybe, but ME3 just feels so out of place story-wise compared to the first two, and takes ME1 behind the woodshed to beat it up. And I think that's the crux right there: ignoring ME1 and making ME2 feel completely pointless, I dunno it almost feels like the writing team got swept up writing a movie script for a single ME movie, forgetting that it was not only the end to a trilogy, but also a video game first.

#155
IoCaster

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To win the war against the Reapers without having to resort to a Deus Ex Crucible would pretty much require laying some of the groundwork in ME2. Instead of tranforming the Council into a bunch of incompetent idiots ("Ah, yes ... Reapers") they needed to take the threat seriously. The logical order of events is to immediately get the best scientists and engineers involved in continuing the work of the Protheans. Figure out how they "reprogrammed" the keepers and explore every inch of the Citadel to learn how the relays are controlled. They should have also dismantled, examined and reverse engineered the Conduit. Send a team to Ilos and take the place apart. Even if "Vigil" was beyond repair the data is still stored somewhere in the facility on a "Prothean Data Drive", ya know. Have some forshadowing via dialogue throughout the game about all of the cool Reaper tech they've discovered and maybe even learn that there's a secret 'Project X' being developed by a multi-species task force. 

When you begin ME3 you have most of the pieces of the puzzle in place.  After the events in Arrival and in combination with the ongoing research the allied forces have learned how to control, build and destroy relays. Now we just need to get the Reapers trapped in a system long enough to blow the relay up and take them all out. You'll need some bait for the trap so here's where you introduce the idea of moving the Citadel to ground zero to lure the Reapers. I'd choose Omega for a couple of reasons. First off it's logistically easier to evacuate the inhabitants than a fully populated system. Secondly, there's a lot to be gained by clearing out that nest of pirates, slave traders and outlaw mercs. Most importantly is that you actually have two relays and a gazillion asteroids to utilize in creating a double slammed chain-reaction blast that is sure to sandwich the Reapers. Other than the bit about moving the Citadel most of the plot devices would have been easy to set in place without having to resort to plot holes or retcons. And best of all it totally eliminates the need to invent any "Crucible", "Catalyst" or other non-sensical crap like that.

The twist at the end is that 'Project X' Is actually a Citadel replacement space facility that is capable of managing and controlling the relay network. It doesn't have to be as big or have a huge civilian population. Think of it as a large miltary space station with civilian oversite via the resident galactic Council. Kind of like what Arcturus was for the Alliance. 

#156
Applepie_Svk

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[quote]IoCaster wrote...

 First off it's logistically easier to evacuate the inhabitants than a fully populated system. Secondly, there's a lot to be gained by clearing out that nest of pirates, slave traders and outlaw mercs. Most importantly is that you actually have two relays and a gazillion asteroids to utilize in creating a double slammed chain-reaction blast that is sure to sandwich the Reapers. /quote]




You are monster :D

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 01 mai 2012 - 02:56 .


#157
Wulfram

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a.m.p wrote...

This.

How to deal with a couple thousand reapers?

Few examples:
1) Noelemahc's favourite cyberwarfare


Just seems like another "superweapon" option.  And requires that the Reapers suck at something they're supposed to be really good at.  And opens the question of why no previous cycle has managed it

2) My favourite FTL torpedoes


FTL weapons break the setting, because there too obvious - if they worked, they would be basically the first thing anyone contemplating space warfare would try.

3) Everyone elses favourite antimatter weapons and nukes


Again, you need an explanation for why this works this cycle and not every other one.  And why they're not a normal part of ship to ship warfare

3) Most importantly Raynulf's favorite 'use citadel to lock down relays' idea and use reaper divide and conquer strategy against reapers


Requires that their divided forces aren't capable of smashing your combined force.  Which they are.  And they're better at travelling without Mass Relays, too.

It might be a viable as a desperate ploy to gain time for research and/or construction that might level the playing field.  But it's certainly no good for Earth, which is already conquered and far too heavily occupied to be retaken by conventional forces.

The Salarians could try it, maybe.  Depends if the balance of forces in the Sur'kesh region is favourable enough to allow them to have superiority.  But I doubt they'd be able to come up with anything sufficiently massive in time.

And anything else less stupid than an off button.


You haven't really presented anything like that.

Why?
We are not going to put all our ships in one line while they put all their ships in an opposite line and begin shooting at each other, right? Stategy. Tactics. This is a problem that needs brains applied to it, not an off button plot device


Unless you're saying the Reapers don't have brains, they'll be using strategy and tactics.too.  In particular, they won't be dividing conveniently into small units that we can pick off one by one. edit: particularly if they could divide themselves into 20 units, any one of which can defeat our combined forces.

Modifié par Wulfram, 01 mai 2012 - 03:12 .


#158
a.m.p

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Subject9x wrote...
To me, upon mulling over the plot for a few weeks (read: ending left me searching for answers to the 'speculations.') I began to realize: ME3 feels like it was written by a fan of ME, and not an actual writer of ME. Harsh? maybe,


See IoCaster's post below you for what fans can write.
Would love to play that game and completely agree. The problem began when the legendary words "ah, yes, reapers" were said.

One more small nitpick. I think Omega has at least 4 relays. And yes, a gazillion asteroids.

#159
Noelemahc

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: ME3 feels like it was written by a fan of ME, and not an actual writer of ME

There's a trope for that!

To win the war against the Reapers without having to resort to a Deus Ex Crucible would pretty much require laying some of the groundwork in ME2.

This, and the subsequent post, nicely sums up my issues with ME2. My gratitude to you, kind sir.

I think Omega has at least 4 relays.

To justify the name Omega-4? P'raps two were eaten, or went rogue, like the Mu Relay?

Modifié par Noelemahc, 01 mai 2012 - 03:07 .


#160
The Angry One

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Subject9x wrote...

ME3 feels like it was written by a fan of The Matrix, and not an actual writer of ME.


Fixed for accuracy.

While not impossible, let's just say that if it turns out Mac Walters is a fan of Mass Effect, I will be very surprised.
His writing displays a casual disinterest in everything that made Mass Effect great at best.

Modifié par The Angry One, 01 mai 2012 - 03:11 .


#161
a.m.p

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Noelemahc wrote...
To justify the name Omega-4? P'raps two were eaten, or went rogue, like the Mu Relay?


Wiki says this:

Omega 2 Relay - One of several mass relays in the Sahrabarik system.

Add to that that primary relays are point-to-point and secondary relays are short range and that requires many systems to have numerous relays.
Then again it's the wiki, not gospel. Last time I tried to reference the wiki, the person I was arguing with went and changed it.

#162
incinerator950

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Is it from the codex?

#163
a.m.p

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Wulfram wrote...

Just seems like another "superweapon" option.  And requires that the Reapers suck at something they're supposed to be really good at.  And opens the question of why no previous cycle has managed it

Why superweapon? Nobody says it would just turn them off. Just one of many methods.

FTL weapons break the setting, because there too obvious - if they
worked, they would be basically the first thing anyone contemplating
space warfare would try.

They don't break the setting. This thread shows how.

Again, you need an explanation for why this works this cycle and not
every other one.  And why they're not a normal part of ship to ship
warfare

It did work every other cycle. But every other cycle was caught off guard and did not have freedom to maneuver. We do.

Requires that their divided forces aren't capable of smashing your combined force.  Which they are.

Debatable. If I get wepons that can kill them in a couple hits - and the setting allows for such weapons, the situation changes drastically.

Modifié par a.m.p, 01 mai 2012 - 03:22 .


#164
a.m.p

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incinerator950 wrote...

Is it from the codex?

The Omega 2? Not sure. It's from the wiki.
Did not deeply look into this yet. I became a true ME nerd only recently with that whole debacle. Until that I was your regular ME player who sometimes read the codex to clear things up.

#165
beyondsolo

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To be honest, the more I think about the Reaper war the less sense it makes to me. Now, I really, really want it to make sense, but every solution I fill in for a problem creates a bunch of other problems.

Let's start with the fact that the Reapers' strategy as described in Mass Effect 1 makes perfect sense. They shut down the mass relay network from the Citadel, thus effectively stranding spaceborn war assets in the clusters they currently are in. I know that there is a lot of speculation about how current-cycle ships can still travel across the galaxy in this and that many years, but from a military and logistic point of view this is useless for two reasons: first, it's too slow because you need to scout ahead to make sure the route is clear for larger ship formations, and it simply takes years to get anywhere; second, ships need to refuel and discharge their drive cores at some point, so unless you have infrastructure in place that allows you to do so (gas giants, orbital stations, secure fuel depots), it's simply not feasible. With the fleets stranded, all ground forces are pretty much useless. Therefore, preventing the Reapers from shutting down the mass relay network in ME1 constitutes a major victory against them.

Now we witness the Reapers' combat strategy first hand in Mass Effect 3. Let me start by saying that little of it makes sense. A Sovereign-class Reaper can destroy any ship in the galaxy with one shot from its main gun, and it can fire this gun every few seconds. Even if we're generous and say that it fires only every ten seconds, it can still destroy 6 ships of any class per minute and 360 per hour. Ten of those Reapers can destroy 3,600 ships of any class per hour. The only logical conclusion is that lengthy fleet engagements against Reapers are unrealistic as you'll run out of ships to throw at them pretty damn fast.

Let's look at realistic strategies to combat the Reapers to establish a more or less feasible scenario of long-lasting battles as witnessed around Palaven. As I've explained before, prolonged engagements are not feasible as you're simply lose all your ships very quickly. What you're left with is a sort of hit-and-run strategy. Engaging the Reapers head on is the absolutely worst thing one could possibly come up with.

You need to pull your ships out of the Reapers' effective weapon range (which would be anywhere beyond the point where the Reapers won't bother engaging you anymore, which I'd estimate at about 10 million kilometers or more since any lightspeed-limited targeting becomes pretty much useless [it does before that, of course, but let's be generous]). In order to create this distance between your fleet and the Reapers you need to go to FTL for two reasons: first, once you're in FTL you can't be targeted anymore; second, at conventional speeds Reapers are substantially faster and more maneuverable than any of your ships (established in ME1, see Joker's description of Sovereign's maneuvering on Virmire).

Once you're out of effective weapon range, you need to regroup, find a weakspot in the Reaper formation, ideally a lone Reaper or a small formation which you can hit with sufficiently superior force so to destroy at least one of them before they decide that you're a nuisance and force you to retreat again. The amount of time your fleet can sustain this sort of operation pattern is limited. First, your ships need to refuel and discharge their drive cores occasionally, they need ammo and supplies for the crews, and the crews need to rest at some point. Again, the resupply problem hits you in the face because the Reapers can just wait at whatever facilities you need inside the occupied system and wipe you out there. Therefore your fleet needs to leave the system in order to resupply, ideally not by mass relay because the Reapers can "camp" that as well. I conclude that supply infrastrucutre and mass relays are strategic choke points in otherwise open space combat.

All of these points boil down to one central problem: Since you need to keep your fleet mobile and supplied you ultimately cannot defend one relatively fixed spot in space (such as a planet). It simply isn't possible. If you keep your ships in orbit to hold the Reapers back you will achieve nothing at substantial cost. It would make more sense to evacuate whoever you can and disperse the population to as many systems as possible to make it tougher--or at least more time-consuming--for the Reapers to mop them up. At no point is it feasible to defend anything with your ships as you're just sacrificing them for no strategic benefit whatsoever.

Now, how is it that the Reapers' strategy doesn't make sense in Mass Effect 3? Well, we have seen how the fleets are the most important asset in combatting the Reapers even though they're very limited in what they can achieve. Why, then, do the Reapers focus on the planets? It would be in the Reapers' best strategic interest to hunt down every spaceworthy vehicle of their opposition. Without ships, combatant or not, every single living being, soldier or not, is trapped on a planet's surface, only waiting to be harvested. By largely ignoring defending fleets and descending to planetary surfaces the Reapers are giving up their one major advantage over the defending species: their utter superiority in space. While a Reaper on the ground sure is pretty nasty, the defending troops on the ground are much more expendable to the defenders than their fleets. They can disperse and, as we've seen on Earth and other worlds, are notoriously difficult to hunt down, also because the Reapers' ground forces are not particularly effective.

The Reapers pretty much tie themselves up in surface skirmishes while leaving the defenders's fleets free to escape and operate and so on. It leaves me with the impression that BioWare sacrificed canon military logic (as it can also be derived from the codex, see Alliance military doctrine) in favor of cinematic effect. While none of this is actually a game-breaking problem that completely devastates any suspension of disbelief, it makes me wonder how the entire conflict could have been designed to make more sense.

Modifié par beyondsolo, 01 mai 2012 - 03:28 .


#166
Subject9x

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a.m.p wrote...

See IoCaster's post below you for what fans can write.
Would love to play that game and completely agree. The problem began when the legendary words "ah, yes, reapers" were said.


not sure if this is agreeing with me or not, lol :P

The Angry One wrote...

While not impossible, let's just say that if it turns out Mac Walters is a fan of Mass Effect, I will be very surprised.
His writing displays a casual disinterest in everything that made Mass Effect great at best.


what I mean in saying this is; not if literally he's a fan or not, more like the quality and consistency of the writing to me feels like a fan wrote it, for better or worse. My opinion of fanfiction has always been incredibly low, too much centering around what the fan desperately wants to happen, aka more wish fulfilment. The times I've dabbled, all were non-canon characters, and all chars had minor ability tweaks. The only thing I really felt bent the rules was one characters ability to shrug off biotic attacks because his suit absorbed the dark energy placed on it, then vented it safely out and away.

#167
incinerator950

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a.m.p wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Is it from the codex?

The Omega 2? Not sure. It's from the wiki.
Did not deeply look into this yet. I became a true ME nerd only recently with that whole debacle. Until that I was your regular ME player who sometimes read the codex to clear things up.


:3

#168
Noelemahc

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Add to that that primary relays are point-to-point and secondary relays are short range and that requires many systems to have numerous relays.

Ah, that would imply that it's a natural hub. Hmmm.

Is it from the codex?

Not the ME2 codex anyway, just checked its TLK file. Could be from the books or comics, though.

#169
incinerator950

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Noelemahc wrote...

Add to that that primary relays are point-to-point and secondary relays are short range and that requires many systems to have numerous relays.

Ah, that would imply that it's a natural hub. Hmmm.

Is it from the codex?

Not the ME2 codex anyway, just checked its TLK file. Could be from the books or comics, though.


Bah

#170
a.m.p

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beyondsolo wrote...
To be honest, the more I think about the Reaper war the less sense it makes to me. Now, I really, really want it to make sense, but every solution I fill in for a problem creates a bunch of other problems.

You’re definitely not alone in this.

I know that there is a lot of speculation about how current-cycle ships can still travel across the galaxy in this and that many years, but from a military and logistic point of view this is useless

True. Have my personal speculation thread about all that. With reapers roaming the galaxy this is simply not possible.

About reaper strategies. They were sacrificed not so much to cinematic effects but to the crucible plot. Which required the reapers to be very powerful, organics to be very weak, and the war to go on for months.
This does not make sense.
Either the reapers have to be weaker, or organics have to be stronger. Or there is no war.

As for how to desing the conflict better, Raynulf here has written something very interesting on that topic.

Modifié par a.m.p, 01 mai 2012 - 03:41 .


#171
Subject9x

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a.m.p wrote...

beyondsolo wrote...
To be honest, the more I think about the Reaper war the less sense it makes to me. Now, I really, really want it to make sense, but every solution I fill in for a problem creates a bunch of other problems.

You’re definitely not alone in this.

I know that there is a lot of speculation about how current-cycle ships can still travel across the galaxy in this and that many years, but from a military and logistic point of view this is useless

True. Have my personal speculation thread about all that. With reapers roaming the galaxy this is simply not possible.

About reaper strategies. They were sacrificed not so much to cinematic effects but to the crucible plot. Which required the reapers to be very powerful, organics to be very weak, and the war to go on for months.
This does not make sense.
Either the reapers have to be weaker, or organics have to be stronger. Or there is no war.

As for how to desing the conflict better, Raynulf here has written something very interesting on that topic.


one more reason to reiterate: always have a trilogy planned out. Even if you don't know the exact specifications of the trilogy - know how the hero/heroes are going stop the big threat /not stop the big threat. The audience does not need to know this all the time from day one, but the writer should know, and write the story towards that.

#172
Wulfram

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beyondsolo wrote...
Why, then, do the Reapers focus on the planets?


Because they want to force the enemy fleets to enter into a pitched battle.  The only way you can do this is to threaten a target that they won't abandon.

Reaper capital ships descending to the surface is pretty silly, though.

#173
incinerator950

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Wulfram wrote...

beyondsolo wrote...
Why, then, do the Reapers focus on the planets?


Because they want to force the enemy fleets to enter into a pitched battle.  The only way you can do this is to threaten a target that they won't abandon.

Reaper capital ships descending to the surface is pretty silly, though.


Orbit Drops are always fun, and the Reapers Dropping on a planet is for intimidation.  Mainly Earth, not Thessia.

#174
ThomaswBloom

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a.m.p wrote...


Ah. Those. Raise a hand everyone who generally ignored the space squids and rode around the system scanning with six of them on your tail.


*raises hand*

I thought the simon says mini game from ME1 was better.  The ME 3 version was better than the ME2 hacking games though.  Simply because the hacking games were overused.  And lets not get started on the ME2 scanning, anyone who didn't edit the game files to have a million or two of each resource after their first playthrough has saintlike patience.

#175
incinerator950

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I have logged over 2000 hours of time in Morrowind. I should have over 1000 in Armored Core For Answer, but I stopped saving after 600.