258 réponses à ce sujet

[a.m.p]

The Angry One wrote...

Another thought on Reaper numbers.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Kahje

During an investigation of a hanar diplomat in 2186, if Shepard fails to stop the indoctrinated hanar diplomat Zymandis from sabotaging Kahje's defense systems, the planet will be quickly overrun and decimated by Reaper forces.


I have a hard time believing Hanar orbital defences could repel a Reaper invasion the size of Earth's or Palaven's.
But the Reapers wanted Kahje enough to try and shut them down.

To me it suggests that the Reapers are spread thin.

That too. Totally forgot about that little detail.
It's a very specific degree of unstopable. Enough to kill everyone, but not enough to kill certain small groups that are bothering them.
I should probably go explore descriptions for planets in other clusters, there are surely more gems like that turian asteroid.

[Byronic-Knight]

incinerator950 wrote...

Going to hammer at this one.  First, a Cruiser was shooting off the Limbs of a Reaper for the same reason a Cain one hit a Destroyer:  Movie Effect Barrier Strength.  The reason we use Four Dreadnoughts is because that is the lowest number given with understandable strength.  We have been given more crap numbers in TNT to understand for a single Dreadnought or Reaper Capital, we have not been given the strength for every other weapon or Cruisers and Frigates.

Reaper code has only been able to help assist in understanding Reaper process logic.  It has not shown being able to hack a Reaper, and only Cerberus has found out how to manipulate Reaper signals to affect Husk Forces. 

It is not well established that the Bulk of the Horde was in the Sol system.  You had one Prothean VI telling you that they are consolidating Power, for all we know, they managed to pull two full sectors and managed to reinforce their position.  Like everything that should have been elaborated, they didn't to give to the surmise you needed the Crucible. 

There hasn't been a single Thanix Cannon or Anti-Matter weapon mentioned outside of Codex entries, and Nuclear Weapons mentioned outside of two conversations.  Warp Bombs and Fission explosives once again mentioned only for the Codex, and when we are discussing any of these codex entries, they explicitely refute that these weapons are an instant compatibility to level the playing field.  Only being slightly more effective then the leading brand Kinetic Cannon. 

It's not about Conventional Victory being possible, they don't want it.  Conventional Victory will be possible if they rewrite the current story to not heavily abuse the Crucible or lack of Arms buildup and preparation for three years.  Since thats unlikely to happen, it's not. 

I reïterate: 
There isn’t really anything that says it isn’t possible except for Hackett’s semi-defeatist negativity/semi-I-don’t-want-to-send-my-soldiers-into-battle-if-I-can-help-it realism and the writers wanting to cram the unnecessary plot-device that is the Crucible into the narrative as a panacea for the Reaper threat.  Anything that could have made conventional victory acheivable 
are forgotten about, retconed out to make the Crucible necessary, or are otherwise under- (or simply un-) utilised. 

This is also the case for the Reaper code and IFF. The potential for the tech was ignored by the writers in favour of a secret, unintelligible doomsday device that literally has no narrative reason for being there other than "wouldn’t this be cool?" mentality. I gave the Collector Base to TIM, a base that was littered with all manner of Reaper tech, including the skeletal larvae of a Reaper itself, thinking that, with his ingenuity (misdirected though it might be) he would come up with something that migh have been used to control them, which Shepard then modifies afterward to disrupt or destroy them---or something similar. Again, there isn’t anything whatsoever stopping this except for the writer’s neglegence (seriously, nothing came from that stupid base except a few more war assets) and a desire to force something else into the story. 

However, the unnecessary and out-of-place device in question could just as easily be retooled to suit the purposes of hacking or disrupting Reaper signals---especially since the quirky hologram says he controls the Reapers. The only reason it isn’t or won’t be is because Walters and Hudson want their damn "artistic integrity."

[JShepppp]

a.m.p wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

Great analysis as usual, a.m.p. I personally think the Reapers are definitely above 5,000, but the game seems to take some liberties with stuff in general. I've always been of the personal opinion that we can't win, but perhaps if it was somehow just the battle of earth that might be possible. The presence in the rest of the galaxy, though, makes conventional victory unlikely.

A fair analysis done to the Battle of Earth part. That's something new and fresh on these forums (I know you made a post about it elsewhere, but nice to see it all come together here).

Thanks for dropping by. I'm always glad to see fellow textwall enthusiasts.

As for your above 5000.The number doesn' t really contradict any firm facts but to my taste it is way too high to justify the strategies they are using (my absolute highest ridiculous 48000 were in case somebody would want to say there are billions).

Assuming there are 5000, where would you say they are during the battle for Earth?

Lol at "textwall enthusiasts" - true, true. 

The 5000 thing is completely my opinion - it's more of what I HOPE the Reapers are just because I would be personally disappointed if it was anything less, given the lore we have. The "facts" we see during the story in terms of tactics, Reaper density throughout the galaxy, etc. don't make sense for that many Reapers, you're right about that. Unfortunately, we see in the game that Reapers are dumbed down merely to be defeated.

It's basically a combination of my prior fascination with the Reapers as an enemy (i.e. before ME3), the staggering length of time (Leviathan of Dis) they've been doing it, and my overall hope for them to live up to what I thought was their "potential" as an enemy. Of course, they'd be impossible to defeat at those numbers, especially disregarding the idea that they've suddenly become morons, but I previously thought the Reapers were one of the BEST scifi enemies ever. 

If there were 5000 Reapers or more - just my speculation/hopes/opinion of course - I would guess that they're so spread out through the systems and that Earth is not important in any way other than that it was taken first. I would also guess that there are non-capital planets that are plentiful in population that Reapers will be coming at in full force. And with so many numbers, the Reapers would divide and conquer system by system and iron out all the wrinkles, so to speak. Of course, if they were truly efficient, they'd control the relays and either turn them off or send Allied Fleet members to random locations away from fighting to have an easier time.

But that is mostly wishful thinking on my part, because if the Reapers had that many members and were that smart, we would see very different writing lol. 

Going based off of facts and for the purposes of intellectual discussion versus wishful thinking, you're right to assess that a couple thousand is a solid working number. Looking more and more into the Reapers always depresses me slightly because there's always that fleeting instant where I wish we had that unbeatable enemy they were set out to be lol. 

[a.m.p]

JShepppp wrote...

Lol at "textwall enthusiasts" - true, true. 

The 5000 thing is completely my opinion - it's more of what I HOPE the Reapers are just because I would be personally disappointed if it was anything less, given the lore we have. The "facts" we see during the story in terms of tactics, Reaper density throughout the galaxy, etc. don't make sense for that many Reapers, you're right about that. Unfortunately, we see in the game that Reapers are dumbed down merely to be defeated.

I think that's even funnier (sadder?) than that. They are dumbed down to be unbeatable. If they behaved with the efficiency of umfathomable space god machines, the fleet would have to actually successfully fight them, or there would be no game. And we can't have that, oh no. Succesfully fighting? That is so unartistic.

I honestly am curious whether after ME2 they really thought that reapers could be beaten only through an off-button plot device. I'd really want to know when in the development process of the trilogy was that decision made.

Modifié par a.m.p, 03 mai 2012 - 09:07 .

[Noelemahc]

I honestly am curious whether after ME2 they really thought that reapers could be beaten only through an off-button plot device. I'd really want to know when in the development process of the trilogy was that decision made.

Halfway through ME3, most likely, as Hudson repeatedly promised there will be no off-button resolution when ME3 development started. And throughout. IIRC, he last mentioned it in February this year. Draw your own conclusions from that =)

It's basically a combination of my prior fascination with the Reapers as an enemy (i.e. before ME3), the staggering length of time (Leviathan of Dis) they've been doing it, and my overall hope for them to live up to what I thought was their "potential" as an enemy. Of course, they'd be impossible to defeat at those numbers, especially disregarding the idea that they've suddenly become morons, but I previously thought the Reapers were one of the BEST scifi enemies ever.

I think everyone did that in their own heads. Thought how the Reapers will fight when attacking en masse, how devastating it would be for the races of the galaxy, and in which ways we could theoretically strike back. I, personally, expected preparing the fleet and indulging in the occasional Shadow of the Colossus moment as Shepard decides he WILL DIRECT THIS PERSONALLY due to battlefield situations dictating it. Alas, it seems most of us have a more vivid and crazy imagination than Mac Walters and his team.

It just seems staggering that the geth would step on the same rake-in-the-grass twice, that the Quarians would start a war during a war, that the turians would never apologize for belittling Shepard, the asari would never try to help until their homeworld gets eaten, and everybody would continue acting stupid as they are until so late. And counter to that, the Reapers went from these mastermindful machine gods into footsoldiers to a God From The Machine. This sort of diminishes their own awesomeness and eliminates all of their mystique entirely. Harbinger no longer speaks because there's no more need to keep up the pretense he's Head Reaper, because he's, at best, just the Shepard of his people, the baddest strongest soldier, but still -- one of many, even if Primus Inter Pares.

It's depressing, really. You don't level the playing field by making EVERYONE dumb as bricks. You don't level the playing field by a superweapon race (aka the Kryptonite dilemma - having strong superheroes makes fighting them useless for villains, so you introduce a superweakness - Kryptonite! - but then have to either equip all villains with it so Superman wouldn't be able to defeat them in a whiff, but then Superman's superness is wasted because everyone has the thing that can negate it, etc.).

You level the playing field by balancing the constituent parts. Worked for Metal Gear Solid, with all of it's amazing technology race in building a Better Bipedal Nukular Tank (which can still totally be taken down by a dude in a bandana with a rocket launcher by getting better dudes and better launchers).

[incinerator950]

Byronic-Knight wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Going to hammer at this one.  First, a Cruiser was shooting off the Limbs of a Reaper for the same reason a Cain one hit a Destroyer:  Movie Effect Barrier Strength.  The reason we use Four Dreadnoughts is because that is the lowest number given with understandable strength.  We have been given more crap numbers in TNT to understand for a single Dreadnought or Reaper Capital, we have not been given the strength for every other weapon or Cruisers and Frigates.

Reaper code has only been able to help assist in understanding Reaper process logic.  It has not shown being able to hack a Reaper, and only Cerberus has found out how to manipulate Reaper signals to affect Husk Forces. 

It is not well established that the Bulk of the Horde was in the Sol system.  You had one Prothean VI telling you that they are consolidating Power, for all we know, they managed to pull two full sectors and managed to reinforce their position.  Like everything that should have been elaborated, they didn't to give to the surmise you needed the Crucible. 

There hasn't been a single Thanix Cannon or Anti-Matter weapon mentioned outside of Codex entries, and Nuclear Weapons mentioned outside of two conversations.  Warp Bombs and Fission explosives once again mentioned only for the Codex, and when we are discussing any of these codex entries, they explicitely refute that these weapons are an instant compatibility to level the playing field.  Only being slightly more effective then the leading brand Kinetic Cannon. 

It's not about Conventional Victory being possible, they don't want it.  Conventional Victory will be possible if they rewrite the current story to not heavily abuse the Crucible or lack of Arms buildup and preparation for three years.  Since thats unlikely to happen, it's not. 

I reïterate: 
There isn’t really anything that says it isn’t possible except for Hackett’s semi-defeatist negativity/semi-I-don’t-want-to-send-my-soldiers-into-battle-if-I-can-help-it realism and the writers wanting to cram the unnecessary plot-device that is the Crucible into the narrative as a panacea for the Reaper threat.  Anything that could have made conventional victory acheivable 
are forgotten about, retconed out to make the Crucible necessary, or are otherwise under- (or simply un-) utilised. 

This is also the case for the Reaper code and IFF. The potential for the tech was ignored by the writers in favour of a secret, unintelligible doomsday device that literally has no narrative reason for being there other than "wouldn’t this be cool?" mentality. I gave the Collector Base to TIM, a base that was littered with all manner of Reaper tech, including the skeletal larvae of a Reaper itself, thinking that, with his ingenuity (misdirected though it might be) he would come up with something that migh have been used to control them, which Shepard then modifies afterward to disrupt or destroy them---or something similar. Again, there isn’t anything whatsoever stopping this except for the writer’s neglegence (seriously, nothing came from that stupid base except a few more war assets) and a desire to force something else into the story. 

However, the unnecessary and out-of-place device in question could just as easily be retooled to suit the purposes of hacking or disrupting Reaper signals---especially since the quirky hologram says he controls the Reapers. The only reason it isn’t or won’t be is because Walters and Hudson want their damn "artistic integrity."

I'm going to bite you in the ass, but the Control ending is very similar to hacking the Reapers.  If not else, then dominating them.



I've been in agreement for a while the game is missing some bones.  Doesn't help that every week more crap is discovered.  I just found out all of the Promo gear is already on the disc, well the ones that mattered anyway.

[incinerator950]

a.m.p wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

Lol at "textwall enthusiasts" - true, true. 

The 5000 thing is completely my opinion - it's more of what I HOPE the Reapers are just because I would be personally disappointed if it was anything less, given the lore we have. The "facts" we see during the story in terms of tactics, Reaper density throughout the galaxy, etc. don't make sense for that many Reapers, you're right about that. Unfortunately, we see in the game that Reapers are dumbed down merely to be defeated.

I think that's even funnier (sadder?) that that. They are dumbed down to be unbeatable. If they behaved with the efficiency of umfathomable space god machines, the fleet would have to actually successfully fight them, or there would be no game. And we can't have that, oh no. Succesfully fighting? That is so unartistic.

I honestly am curious whether after ME2 they really thought that reapers could be beaten only through an off-button plot device. I'd really want to know when in the development process of the trilogy was that decision made.

Not really dumbed down.  Day 1 from ME we've been shown they are a threat to organic life.  Sovereign told us they have been doing this for ages.  

The dumbed down part comes from movie effect, slamming walls of crap at each other with flashy lights (completely off and inaccurate too) until the Cuttlefish decide to charge headway because, hey, that can do that.  The Turian scenes show that, entire fleets, fighters, and ground forces not putting a dent there.  Reapers die only to make the scene look better, yet off scene they're a Tsunami. 

It's been speculated since ME 1 that an off-button was needed, if not that then during ME 2 in the list of probable pains in the asses.

[Noelemahc]

I've been in agreement for a while the game is missing some bones. Doesn't help that every week more crap is discovered. I just found out all of the Promo gear is already on the disc, well the ones that mattered anyway.

Same thing for ME2, DAO and DA2. Easier to do than arranging tiny couple-file downloads like some of the later-day DAO, DA2 and ME2 promo stuff did, if the actual promotional arrangements have already been made.

As for the cut stuff... ME3 also for some reason contains all of ME2's debriefings (you know, those write-ups of TIM's about the ME2 missions? yeah) and lots of other leftovers. Makes trawling for cut stuff more unfun =(

Oh, and did I mention that portions of the Retake Omega questline are already on-disc? 'Cos they are.

The dumbed down part comes from movie effect, slamming walls of crap at each other with flashy lights (completely off and inaccurate too) until the Cuttlefish decide to charge headway because, hey, that can do that.

Well, I know that doing it in a non-Hollywood fashion would've looked boring, but when choosing between boring and making plot holes you could drive Mars through, you'd better pick boring. SRSLY.

[a.m.p]

Noelemahc wrote...

I honestly am curious whether after ME2 they really thought that reapers could be beaten only through an off-button plot device. I'd really want to know when in the development process of the trilogy was that decision made.

Halfway through ME3, most likely, as Hudson repeatedly promised there will be no off-button resolution when ME3 development started. And throughout. IIRC, he last mentioned it in February this year. Draw your own conclusions from that =)

Now I need a drink.

@incinerator950
The dumbed down part is the whole plot that demands hordes of reapers to faff about in various star systems and avoid taking the citadel, until the plot allows them too. I am not even taking into account the cutscene combat tactics, I'm only using them to determine how many sov-class reapers are taking part in the battle.

It's been speculated since ME 1 that an off-button was needed, if not that then during ME 2 in the list of probable pains in the asses.

Where? I don't remember any indication of any kind of off-button. As I said, the crucible introduction was so much a suprise for me, that I couldn't believe it wasn't a trap until London.

Noelemahc wrote...
Well, I know that doing it in a non-Hollywood fashion would've looked boring, but when choosing between boring and making plot holes you could drive Mars through, you'd better pick boring. SRSLY.

Seems like real writers disagree.

Modifié par a.m.p, 03 mai 2012 - 09:24 .

[incinerator950]

Noelemahc wrote...

I've been in agreement for a while the game is missing some bones. Doesn't help that every week more crap is discovered. I just found out all of the Promo gear is already on the disc, well the ones that mattered anyway.

Same thing for ME2, DAO and DA2. Easier to do than arranging tiny couple-file downloads like some of the later-day DAO, DA2 and ME2 promo stuff did, if the actual promotional arrangements have already been made.

As for the cut stuff... ME3 also for some reason contains all of ME2's debriefings (you know, those write-ups of TIM's about the ME2 missions? yeah) and lots of other leftovers. Makes trawling for cut stuff more unfun =(

Oh, and did I mention that portions of the Retake Omega questline are already on-disc? 'Cos they are.

The dumbed down part comes from movie effect, slamming walls of crap at each other with flashy lights (completely off and inaccurate too) until the Cuttlefish decide to charge headway because, hey, that can do that.

Well, I know that doing it in a non-Hollywood fashion would've looked boring, but when choosing between boring and making plot holes you could drive Mars through, you'd better pick boring. SRSLY.

I'd take well done and presented, not boring or flashy.  Even Star Wars, while upgrading the Flashy, still looked presentable to what its established.

[Noelemahc]

Even Star Wars, while upgrading the Flashy, still looked presentable to what its established.

That's because it established very early on that it's WW2 in space, with ranges of weapons only suitable for dogfighting, predominantly fire-and-forget missiles and torpedoes which CAN be computer-guided, but the guidance systems are crap and prone to malfunction. And all the turrets are manually-controlled. And capship-to-capship combat is as exciting as it was in the Caribbean in the 16th century, two ships turning broadside to each other and exchanging volleys until one sinks (or runs onto a reef, maybe both).

And yet the setting produced an obscene number of sim games (some of which were halfway decent, I think I've spent at least five years of my life playing the various iterations of TIE Fighter as it was re-released at least four times with graphical upgrades and extra levels and so on).

Mass Effect is closer to modern airfighting in that regard - most of the high-tech weaponry is designed to kill your enemies at the edge of radar range, long before they're within visual. If you have to dogfight, it usually means you're either desperate, or your commanding officer frelled up, probably both.

[Flextt]

Due to encourgement by Noelemahc, I will repost my thoughts on the
strength of Allied Thanix weaponry in conventional warfare against
Reaper forces:

I haven't seen this brought up by anyone but it just hit me while
eating lunch, so bear with me. I am not quick to jump on the "MOAR
THANIX!"-bandwagon, but it is so obvious to me how superior they are, I
wanted to share this.

Everyone remember ME 2? Good. Anyone
remember the very first villain we are presented by the game? The
Collector Cruiser, mark the emphasis. The ME universe knows 4 classes of
ships, though one of them is never seen in-game and not important to my
hypothesis: Frigate, Cruiser, Dreadnought (and Carrier).

- The
Destiny Ascension is a dreadnought. They are large vessels with tons of
armor and powerful shields. Reaper capital ships fall in this category
and their amount is currently why crunching Reaper numbers makes both no
fun and shows we are vastly outnumbered.

- The Collector Cruiser
is a cruiser. They are somewhere in between. Actually, the Codex seems
to suggest they have a somewhat problematic role in the war against
Reapers.

Cruisers cannot land on medium or high-gravity worlds, but do possess
the ability to land on low-gravity planets. Cruisers are ideal in any
planetary assault.

So
Reapers are best fought when they are in a planet's atmosphere, because
they have to significantly lower their mass which in return reduces the
stopping power of their armor, but we cannot really fight them on the
surface on a planet, because we end up scorching our homes. So as you
can see, while cruisers pack a punch and are probably more numerous than
dreadnoughts, their role is somewhat problematic.

- The Normandy
is a frigate. They usually fight in wolf-packs, are manueverable and
make up the bulk of forces. Their role is also problematic, because
their firepower is likely too low to inflict serious damage with
conventional weaponry against Reaper shielding and armor, but kinetic
shielding is susceptible to sustained fire rather than strong, singular
bursts. While they are unlikely to damage a capital ship because of a
Reaper's GARDIAN systems, they can probably weaken its shields.

Now
that sizes are established, I want you all to remember the ME 2 Suicide
Mission. The Normandy's Thanix deals minor damage on the frontal side,
but the second volley fully penetrates the cruiser's broadside. Since
armor is likely thickest at the front due to the kind of warfare we
witness during the galatic fleet battle, this isn't a weakness inherent
to Thanix. The full penetration is something remarkable. The Normandy is
several times smaller than the Collector Cruiser and likely, cruisers
in general. The thing that is fighting a Reaper on Earth is actually a
cruiser (delivered to you by Cpt. Twitter Retcon) to get a sense of the
size of an Alliance cruiser and an Alliance frigate like the Normandy.
Yet through superior manueverability it is able to line up a perfect
shot in destroy the enemy vessel in a single blow in a 1v1 fight.
That
is why I think Thanix are vastly underestimated. Frigates equipped with
Thanix could be able to outmanuever Reaper vessels and inflict serious
damage, though I am unsure, if GARDIAN systems only affect fighters or
also frigates.

Update: The main battery Thanix guns seem to be
fairly compact from what we see ingame. It is likely that bigger vessels
could support bigger batteries (4 barrels instead of two? longer?
heavier metal?)

Update 2: Because the Collectors serve as the
Reaper's vanguard force after Sovereign, it is likely their technology
is only slightly lower, if not actually on par with current Reaper tech.
We know this is the case with the Cruiser, because it's main weapon
beam looks like a yellow-colored Reaper Thanix, with their processing
technology and their access to huskifying technology. They even go
beyond regular husks and further combined them, implying they my have
advanced in that field. Hence it is possible, the lesson on Alliance
Thanix and the Collector Cruiser can serve as a field study.

http://social.biowar...5285/1#11835666

Modifié par Flextt, 03 mai 2012 - 12:23 .

[JShepppp]

a.m.p wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

Lol at "textwall enthusiasts" - true, true. 

The 5000 thing is completely my opinion - it's more of what I HOPE the Reapers are just because I would be personally disappointed if it was anything less, given the lore we have. The "facts" we see during the story in terms of tactics, Reaper density throughout the galaxy, etc. don't make sense for that many Reapers, you're right about that. Unfortunately, we see in the game that Reapers are dumbed down merely to be defeated.

I think that's even funnier (sadder?) than that. They are dumbed down to be unbeatable. If they behaved with the efficiency of umfathomable space god machines, the fleet would have to actually successfully fight them, or there would be no game. And we can't have that, oh no. Succesfully fighting? That is so unartistic.

I honestly am curious whether after ME2 they really thought that reapers could be beaten only through an off-button plot device. I'd really want to know when in the development process of the trilogy was that decision made.

Yeah. I could see that discussion. There'd be an "oh crap" (stronger language) where they'd be like damn we can only do this with a giant off switch and nothing else. 

Maybe they realized that in space battles, especially with unconventional enemies like the Reapers, opening up possibilities would be a nightmare because there're an infinite amount of them, and they just didn't want to deal with going through all of that, not when ME is a character-based story at heart.

[a.m.p]

JShepppp wrote...

Yeah. I could see that discussion. There'd be an "oh crap" (stronger language) where they'd be like damn we can only do this with a giant off switch and nothing else.

But they could do it with anything else, they had all they needed and tossed it out the airlock!

Let's compare to this episode of Stargate that everyone compares it to (not without reason).
They have an ongoing invasion of machines who want to kill everyone and eat everything it the galaxy. They are vastly outnumbered and technologically inferior to said machines.
They have tech that shoots impulses that kill the machines but only one by one and the machines have been established to be able to adapt to it over time.
There is no established in-universe way to solve that problem. They've tried since I don't remember which season and it only got worse.

So the writers introduce an ancient superweapon that can kill all of them at once if calibrated correctly. Except the characters are fully aware of who, when and why built it, they have some idea of how it works and team up with an enemy who knows how to reconfigure it to kill just the invading machines, as shown by that episode. They know what will happen when those numbers reach the 0.76 margin. Nobody has to be a moron in that episode.
That is what you do when you write an enemy too powerful for your universe to handle.

Meanwhile Mass Effect had half a dozen ways to solve the reaper problem and instead went with a superweapon plot that required everyone to be a moron.

Modifié par a.m.p, 03 mai 2012 - 06:47 .

[Raynulf]

Alrighty. A lot of this will have been discussed before but... some thoughts on tactics and tech. 

First a quick rundown on what Mass Effect 1 - 2 shows us:

• Sovereign is a typical reaper (Destroyers were invented for ME3)
• The Citadel had a skeleton defense fleet which was largely overwhelmed by the Geth Heretic fleet (NB. "free" Geth weren't involved) - the Turians losing 20 cruisers to the Geth.
• Saren managed to use the citadel to shut down the relay network, which Shepard then reactivated to allow the 5th Fleet to come to the rescue. (Ref: masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Citadel_Fleet)
• If Shepard sends in the 5th Fleet early to save the Destiny Ascension ("Save the Council"), Alliance casualties to the Geth Heretics are higher (8 cruisers), while Turian/Asari casualties are lower. (Ref: youtu.be/T2w9UAfeQ9I, youtu.be/T-o-eX7Zyw4)
• Using conventional weapons of the time, the Alliance 5th fleet battered down Sovereign's kinetic barriers, allowing the Frigate, Normandy to deliver the killing blow with a single Javelin missile. Suggesting that the Reapers toughness is due to their vast eezo power core and barriers, not an "Unobtainium" super-material hull.
• During the battle Sovereign used its beam weapon (Essentially a Dreadnought scale Thanix) to cut through alliance cruisers with minimal effort.
• Following the battle for the Citadel, the Turians recovered most of Sovereign's eezo core, and its primary weapon system. 11 months after the Battle for the Citadel (min 13 months before ME2 starts), they had successfully reverse engineered and reproduced it: The Thanix Cannon.
• The Thanix Cannon fires a stream of relativistic molten heavy-metal alloy at the target, the impact of which causes both enormous kinetic damage and radiation ("heat"), the latter bypassing kinetic barriers completely, making the weapon far more effective against heavily shielded ships (e.g. Reapers).
• Collectors are introduced as modified Protheans using Reaper technology: Better sensors, better shields, better weapons, better nanotech and so on. Their own 'beam weapon' ripped the Normandy SR1 apart effortlessly, bypassing its shields.
• The Normandy SR2, still a frigate but armed with a Thanix cannon of its own, two-shot an otherwise vastly superior cruiser (Protheans were more advanced to begin with + Reaper tech on top of that).
• The Mass Effect 2 codex states that energy projectile weapons are horrendously inefficient, to the point where the power requirements to damage ratio are considered unviable. The Collectors do use energy weapons, and samples were supplied for reverse engineering. The Thanix is essentially a hybrid kinetic/radiation weapon.

Some pretty simple conclusions that can be drawn:

• In the Mass Effect universe, materials science is limited. Adamantium / Unobtainium and other fictional 'super materials' do not exist. "Armor" is improved by simply adding more ablative/sacrificial material that weapons must destroy first.
• In every scale from the personal to the Mass Relay, objects primarilly resist damage through the use of kinetic barriers. The bigger the eezo core powering the shields, the more damage they can resist.
• As a hybrid weapon, the Thanix can cause significant damage to the hull of kinetically shielded ships. Enough localised damage could cause damage/disruption of local barrier generator (little eezo nodules), which would permit the 'matter' part to rip through. Essentially becoming the equivalent of an AP round for barriers.
• The above are true for every race, including the reapers.

Cool. What does this mean?

It means everyone using Reaper (aka Thanix) cannons are going to do a lot of damage to everyone else, because they partially bypass the effectiveness of barriers - the thing what made big ships/reapers nigh unkillable.

Even a 1-man fighter equipped with Thanix cannons (or similar hybrid matter/energy weapons) can inflict damage upon a reaper while its barriers are active. A small amount to be sure, but they can be nickle-and-dimed to death.  Of course, the same is true for the Occuli and Alliance cruisers/dreadnoughts, requiring GUARDIAN lasers (which devour power to inflict moderate damage - good only for shooting down missiles and enemy fighters) and their own fighter interceptors.


Some thoughts on tactics using the above:

The ideal weapon against the reapers is not the Dreadnought. The reapers simply 'do better dreadnoughts' than we do, though in combat they are less maneuverable as their incredible speed and maneuverability comes exclusively from their enormous Mass Effect Core and using it to dramatically reduce their mass to overcome inertia - something that would be certain death to try while under fire (according to the Codex, anyway). Probably because it would require them to drop their barriers or some such (refer above).

Additionally: A dreadnought has a crew of thousands, a cruiser of hundreds and a frigate of dozens and a fighter has a crew of 1. A dreadnought takes a half-dozen reaper hits, a cruiser 1-2 and a frigate just one.

Reapers can't shoot backwards. This is bad for them. It also means the best means of combating the reapers is not to try and build big - but to build lots. Focus on numbers and flanking: Frigate wolf-packs and for larger fleets, carriers (who keep their distance as much as possible - also useful as bait) launching fighter swarms comprising of thanix-using 'bombers' and anti-occuli interceptors.


But the Codex says...

This comes up a lot so I'll address it: "The codex says you need 4 dreadnoughts to take down a reaper's shields"

With mass accelerator weapons aka slugthrowers, this is true. Let us use an analogy. Tanks.

Back in the days of warfare being infantry with firearms, the introduction of tanks was to bring in indestructable engines of death - when you saw one, you ran or hid, because with your rifle there was not much you could do to its armoured hull. Sure, enough people focusing fire on it might get lucky, but for the most people it could just roll over entire infantry platoons with ease.

This battlefield supremecy lasted a while, but not forever. People are ingenious when they need to be. "Bazookas" personal one-shot armor-piercing explosive missiles, anti-tank mines, molatov cocktails (for the truly suicidal): Weapons to bypass the incredible armor of the tank to allow it to be destroyed by a single soldier. Weapons that were developed in response to the need for them.

Mass Accelerators are the rifles of the pre-ME1 universe - cost effective and fit for the task of shooting each other, but woefully ineffective against a reaper with active barriers. And unlike in past cycles, not only did we not suffer galactic lockdown and surprise invasion (with most of the galaxy having no clue what was happening), but we got to kill a reaper and examine the remains to see what made it tick.

And from that came our anti-tank weapon: The Thanix.

[Raynulf]

And as a complete side-note, I found the technobabble for the Thanix (or Thannix or whatever) a little disappointing, at times a little self-contradictory, and a bit... silly.

Firing a liquid alloy slug into space will generally cause a bunch of it to immediately boil, and a central core to solidify (liquids cannot exist in vacuum). Also: Why would this half solidified, half gaseous stream of metal be so much more effective than a pre-shaped solid slug?

Honestly, if you want funky beam weapons of doom:

"The reaper's primary weapon system is both efficient and deadly. Rather than firing solid slugs at speeds up to 1.3% of the speed of light, the reapers use extremely advanced mass effect field generators to compress hydrogen into a superheated plasma, which is then accelerated by a mass-effect coil in the form of a continuous stream at velocities between 0.5% and 11% of the speed of light, depending on the desired amount of destruction.

When impacting on solid objects or kinetic barriers, the hydrogen plasma stream experiences extreme compression, comparible to that found within the heart of a star, and the resulting nuclear fusion produces unparalleled localised destruction. In addition to the effectiveness of the weapon, it also alleviates many logistic concerns as reapers are capable of harvesting intersteller hydrogen to fuel their destructive arsenal while traversing steller clusters.

Following the Battle of the Citadel, the eezo core and primary weapon of the construct known as 'Sovereign' was recovered and studied. Turian engineers have since managed to produce a replica of the weapon, calling their revolutionary weapon the 'Thanix Cannon'. Seeing the potential of this weapon, the Council ordered the technology be made available to all council races and the majority of the Citadel fleet has been retrofited with Thanix technology."

[a.m.p]

@Raynulf
You know how in the first couple of weeks after release whenever a slightly more comprehensible ending suggestion was posted it got half a dozen joking "Bioware, hire this person!" comments.

I just want to underscore that when I am saying "Bioware, hire this man" I am absolutely serious.

A few notes:
First about the collector cruiser. It's an issue that kept bugging me since first seeing this non-Thanix variant of the cutscene. How does the Normandy kill it with just the javelins? Sure, it suffers more damage and we lose a party member without this upgrade but it sort of undermines the awesomness of Thanix cannons right in ME2. And supposed collector superiority too. I really thought that sould have been the one mandatory upgrade.

About the citadel master control unit and the relay network switch. It was omnitool-compatible. Shepard, a soldier, not a researcher instantly figured out how to open the relays with it. It's right in the council chamber. And we're supposed to assume nobody studied it? A device that would allow the citadel races to control the relays across the whole galaxy?

It's like the citadel tower projects a stultifing field that makes everyone within it an idiot.

[Noelemahc]

I just want to underscore that when I am saying "Bioware, hire this man" I am absolutely serious.

Signed.

Honestly, if you want funky beam weapons of doom:

Can't tell if headcanon so awesome it's AWESOME or overlooked Codex entry. Help?

It was omnitool-compatible. Shepard, a soldier, not a researcher instantly figured out how to open the relays with it. It's right in the council chamber. And we're supposed to assume nobody studied it? A device that would allow the citadel races to control the relays across the whole galaxy?

Perhaps their idea of "disabling it" was to remove that console? Have to go back to the Council scene in ME3, check if the thing is still there. I'm intrigued now.

Also, on an unrelated note concerning stupidity and Citadel consoles -- anyone else felt that Cerberus was mighty stupid when they're just STANDING THERE, listening to Joker contact Alliance Control Tower during the coup? Nobody had the inkling to bend down, thumb "transmit" and say "This is Alliance Control, SSV Normandy, please turn back, we have a breakout of the Plokovoid Purple Plague on the station, the Citadel is under quarantine until further notice. Sorry for the inconvenience."

And no, "there would be no story" don't cut it, at this point you get to pick "Joker, land anyway", GET SHOT AT, have to fix Normandy in a later sidequest, or "Damn those Plokovoids, they never wash their hands after excreting!" and the story changes depending on whether the Citadel is under Cerberus control or continues as before. And have to join a three-way battle for the station as now Cerberus has less forces on Cronos, meaning you complete it faster, and by the time you arrive to the Citadel to claim the Catalyst, you see the Reapers fight Cerberus for control.

Ah, a man can dream...

[a.m.p]

You gentlemen with your awesome ideas make me so very sad about what could have been.

Noelemahc wrote...

It was omnitool-compatible. Shepard, a soldier, not a researcher instantly figured out how to open the relays with it. It's right in the council chamber. And we're supposed to assume nobody studied it? A device that would allow the citadel races to control the relays across the whole galaxy?

Perhaps their idea of "disabling it" was to remove that console? Have to go back to the Council scene in ME3, check if the thing is still there. I'm intrigued now.

And not figure it out and get their instant solution to any conflict with Terminus, batarians, krogans ar anything else that could be discovered behind a newly activated relay, thus allowing to safely continue exploration? And that is if we assume that they really did not believe reapers were coming.

I'm telling you. It's a stupification field. The Starchild is the source of it. It explains everything.

Modifié par a.m.p, 04 mai 2012 - 09:36 .

[Elyiia]

a.m.p wrote...

You gentlemen with your awesome ideas make me so very sad about what could have been.

Noelemahc wrote...

It was omnitool-compatible. Shepard, a soldier, not a researcher instantly figured out how to open the relays with it. It's right in the council chamber. And we're supposed to assume nobody studied it? A device that would allow the citadel races to control the relays across the whole galaxy?

Perhaps their idea of "disabling it" was to remove that console? Have to go back to the Council scene in ME3, check if the thing is still there. I'm intrigued now.

And not figure it out and get their instant solution to any conflict with Terminus, batarians, krogans ar anything else that could be discovered behind a newly activated relay, thus allowing to safely continue exploration? And that is if we assume that they really did not believe reapers were coming.

I'm telling you. It's a supification field. The Starchild is the source of it. It explains everything.

My god, the true enemy of Mass Effect:

Modifié par Elyiia, 04 mai 2012 - 09:26 .

[Raynulf]

Noelemahc wrote...

Honestly, if you want funky beam weapons of doom:

Can't tell if headcanon so awesome it's AWESOME or overlooked Codex entry. Help?

Sadly, this was just something I made up.

When I see things that look like guns firing in my Sci-Fi, I like technobabble explaining they're guns.

When I see things that look like beams of death firing in my Sci-Fi, I like technobabble explaining they're beams of death.

Codex entries explaining that the beam of death actually works like a gun makes me a little sad =(

[Noelemahc]

When I see things that look like guns firing in my Sci-Fi, I like technobabble explaining they're guns.

When I see things that look like beams of death firing in my Sci-Fi, I like technobabble explaining they're beams of death.

"They're getting dangeously close with those pahhp guns!"
"Pop guns? That's that they're CALLED?"
"Who gives a frell what they're called? We need to MOVE!"
-- John Crichton and the Sudden Realization That There's Pop Guns In The Universe, Farscape.

Sorry, couldn't help it, I'm a fan.

Codex entries explaining that the beam of death actually works like a gun makes me a little sad =(

So how'd the Javelin make you feel then? From what I recall, it's essentially a hand-carried Thanix rifle designed by the Geth to be the most sexy sniper rifle in the game.

Modifié par Noelemahc, 04 mai 2012 - 12:41 .

[a.m.p]

Noelemahc wrote...

So how'd the Javelin make you feel then? From what I recall, it's essentially a hand-carried Thanix rifle designed by the Geth to be the most sexy sniper rifle in the game.

Nah, if we talk ridiculous weapons the reaper blackstar wins by far, both the design and explanation nominations.

[The Angry One]

a.m.p wrote...

Noelemahc wrote...

So how'd the Javelin make you feel then? From what I recall, it's essentially a hand-carried Thanix rifle designed by the Geth to be the most sexy sniper rifle in the game.

Nah, if we talk ridiculous weapons the reaper blackstar wins by far, both the design and explanation nominations.

The Blackstar just screams of "Hey guys look! I made a Reaper gun! Shoehorn it in somehow!"

[incinerator950]

Noelemahc wrote...

Even Star Wars, while upgrading the Flashy, still looked presentable to what its established.

That's because it established very early on that it's WW2 in space, with ranges of weapons only suitable for dogfighting, predominantly fire-and-forget missiles and torpedoes which CAN be computer-guided, but the guidance systems are crap and prone to malfunction. And all the turrets are manually-controlled. And capship-to-capship combat is as exciting as it was in the Caribbean in the 16th century, two ships turning broadside to each other and exchanging volleys until one sinks (or runs onto a reef, maybe both).

And yet the setting produced an obscene number of sim games (some of which were halfway decent, I think I've spent at least five years of my life playing the various iterations of TIE Fighter as it was re-released at least four times with graphical upgrades and extra levels and so on).

Mass Effect is closer to modern airfighting in that regard - most of the high-tech weaponry is designed to kill your enemies at the edge of radar range, long before they're within visual. If you have to dogfight, it usually means you're either desperate, or your commanding officer frelled up, probably both.

• The primary objective is to align the mass accelerator along the bow with the opposing vessel's broadside. Battles typicallyplay out as artillery duels fought at ranges measured in thousands ofkilometers, though assault through defended mass relays often occur at "knife fight" ranges as close as a few dozen kilometers.Most ship-to-ship engagements are skirmishes between patrolvessels of cruiser weight and below, with dreadnoughts and carriers onlydeployed in full-scale fleet actions.
• A ship's main gun is a large spinal-mount weapon running 90%of the hull's length. While possessing destructive power equal to thatof tactical nuclear weapons, main guns are difficult to aim. Becauseships must be able to point their bows almost directly at their targets,main guns are best used for long-range "bombardment" fire.
• Approximately 40% of the hull's width, broadside guns inflictless damage and can be mounted with greater numbers and moreflexibility. The modern human Kilimanjaro-class dreadnoughts mount threedecks with 26 broadside accelerators apiece for a total salvo weight of78 slugs per side, firing once every two seconds.

Gee Noel, that doesn't sound like or looked like in all three ME's like futuristic 16th Century. 

If you want to talk about Dog Fights...that hasn't been impressive.  If you want to talk about ships like the Normandy, hey, Millenium Falcon of the ME universe.  

Modifié par incinerator950, 04 mai 2012 - 01:46 .