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[Dwarva]

So I'm already considering my next playthrough and want to romance up Sebastian. But having looked at the criteria for his rivalmance, I can't get my head around why he would actually want to be with Hawke after all the actions that cause him to rival her. Why would Sebastian love Hawke if she was constantly making
dishonourable and disagreeable choices? If she is always siding against
the chantry which is something he cares about?So I did a bit of digging and looked at the same criteria for all the other LIs.

Similarly if Hawke hates blood mages, why would Merril fall for him/her? If Hawke's intent on getting the mages done in, why would Anders ever fall for him/her? I just don't get it and particularly for these two, don't see them going against their morals for the sake another.

Isabela I can understand because rivalmancing her basically involves following the rules and helping people who don't always ask for it. I understand why someone might not agree with that but love the person nonetheless. Similarly with Fenris, I can see how he could hate mages but find honour under Hawkes surface that he falls in love with.

But, in reality, if someone was constantly saying they hated the person you were (ala Merril) or making morally ambiguous choices (ala Sebastian), would you ever actually fall for them despite these things?

It bugs me because I want to do my next questline where I become the Viscountess and marry Sebastian but basically can't do it without making choices that will probably make the others hate me too...<_<

Modifié par Staarbux, 30 avril 2012 - 12:43 .

[Dwarva]

Grrr quoted instead of editing...

Modifié par Staarbux, 30 avril 2012 - 12:42 .

[Ellyria]

This is why the Friend/Rival system needs a bit of tweaking, in my opinion. With Anders, for example, you can be totally pro-mage, but rival him because you don't agree with his methods or you think he's an abomination, and he'll whine about how you're a Templar lover and the Knight-Commander has you in her pocket.

Despite the way you can gain rivalry points with Sebastian, his rivalry isn't like some of the others. Basically, the Chantry is his comfort zone, and you're trying to push him out of his comfort zone to retake Starkhaven, hence the rivalry points instead of friendship points. He's not angry at Hawke, he respects Hawke, despite some of the methods he/she may use, as evident during his Act 3 Questioning Beliefs quest, he says he's learned a lot from Hawke and sometimes the ends justifies the means. So his rivalmance makes a lot more sense, unlike Fenris' (who's always angry), Anders' (who wallows so much he and Justice become completely detacted while in the same body), and Merrill's (who always screams at you and proclaims she hates you). 

For rivaling Sebastian, you don't have to do all those awful/horrible/bad things, you can keep telling him to retake Starkhaven and help mages with things that are outside the Circle (Help Feynriel when he's trapped in the Fade; say you won't make him Tranquil. Accept Anders' quest Dissent using all the Direct/Aggressive options. Give Merrill the arulin'holm. Tell Ella to find her parents and escape the Circle. Let Gascard use Blood Magic to find Leandra.), and that should be eough to max his rivlary out. Someone from the Sebastian thread has a guide to rivaling him without being a total douche, I believe.

Also: sometimes you can't help who you're attracted to, whether you share their beliefs or not. Like rivaled Anders, he hates that Hawke is so pro-Templar and won't share his goals in mage freedom, but is so attracted to him/her that he can't help himself if Hawke won't stop flirting.

Modifié par Chylise, 30 avril 2012 - 01:21 .

[Cantina]

I thought about Rivalry romancing Anders, just to see it play out from my own experience instead of watching it on Youtube. I found out that you can be pro-mage but the game will not recognize this on the rivalry path and Anders will assume you are a Templar supporter. All I wanted was to point out he was wrong in his choice (for curiosity) not support the Templars. On top of that, if you are a Templar supporter I have a hard time seeing Anders want to be with you. The same thing applies if you chose to be a Templar in the Warrior set or a Blood Mage. The kinks need to be worked out for Dragon Age 3.

Modifié par Cantina, 30 avril 2012 - 01:34 .

[Dwarva]

Also: sometimes you can't help who you're attracted to, whether you share their beliefs or not. Like rivaled Anders, he hates that Hawke is so pro-Templar and won't share his goals in mage freedom, but is so attracted to him/her that he can't help himself if Hawke won't stop flirting.

While I agree with all your other points, I'm not so sure about this one.

Generally, unless an attraction is purely physical, you love the person for who they are. So I'm not sure you can go on and on about how you don't like a person's main qualities....then fall for them?

Am willing to admit this might just be me though.

[Ellyria]

Staarbux wrote...

Also: sometimes you can't help who you're attracted to, whether you share their beliefs or not. Like rivaled Anders, he hates that Hawke is so pro-Templar and won't share his goals in mage freedom, but is so attracted to him/her that he can't help himself if Hawke won't stop flirting.

While I agree with all your other points, I'm not so sure about this one.

Generally, unless an attraction is purely physical, you love the person for who they are. So I'm not sure you can go on and on about how you don't like a person's main qualities....then fall for them?

Am willing to admit this might just be me though.

This actually brings me to another point: We have no idea what Hawke's main qualities are. Being pro-Mage or pro-Templar is just one really small part of Hawke (that we are shown constantly, hence why it seems like it's all Hawke is about). Hawke's motivations and interests and everything else are a complete mystery to us. Rivaled Anders may be really peeved about Hawke being pro-Templar instead of pro-mage, but they could have a lot of other things that they both like, or fears they both share, the same sense of humor, whatever. Those things could be what attracted Anders to Hawke, but we never see them, so it leaves us scratching our heads, wondering why Anders would want to be with Hawke if Hawke doesn't support mages.

It would be like if in real life, Person A really liked Person B because of their personality, their interests, etc, but Person A isn't religious and Person B is. Would they drop the whole relationship just because there's one thing they don't see eye to eye on?

[ReallyRue]

I think Merrill's rivalrymance is more about Hawke trying to save her from herself, and Merrill getting angry that Hawke doesn't trust her/believe in her enough to just let her work with the mirror. Though it does have plenty of flaws, seeing as you get some of your rivalry for Merrill from handing mages to templars.

I prefer friendmances though. They just make more sense to me.

[cowoline]

I have only done one rivalmance and thats Anders. I like that the option is there, but i really don't like doing it myself. It doesn't seem as much as love as it does blind passion. Love the friendmance especially Anders and Fenris. They seem to be total and utterly devoted to you, when in rivalmance I kind of ecspect them to run off as soon as they get they opportunity.

Sebastian's (from what i have seen on youtube) is the one that makes most sence imo. It changes him, but it doesn't make him bitter or resentfull. He is actually the only rival male romance that doesn't threaten you.
Anders quote: "I don't know whether to kiss you or kill you"

Merills rival makes sence to. You are trying to protect her from herself and she ofcause feels that she is being dominated by you.

As for Sebastian I found rivaling him quite easy. Just get him before Night terrors and bring him along and be promage. Giant boost right there.

[cowoline]

Cantina wrote...

I thought about Rivalry romancing Anders, just to see it play out from my own experience instead of watching it on Youtube. I found out that you can be pro-mage but the game will not recognize this on the rivalry path and Anders will assume you are a Templar supporter. All I wanted was to point out he was wrong in his choice (for curiosity) not support the Templars. On top of that, if you are a Templar supporter I have a hard time seeing Anders want to be with you. The same thing applies if you chose to be a Templar in the Warrior set or a Blood Mage. The kinks need to be worked out for Dragon Age 3.

I actually get Anders' rivalromance. He is desperate to show/teach the world that mages should be free. In a way he tries to convince a rival Hawke that his people should be free. If he succeeds then his cause isn't doomed.

I don't like to rival him though. He just becomes so unhappy, desperate and so alone(I know he does anyway, but even more so in a rivalmance).

[Knight of Dane]

In the Rival path you teach Sebatian that the end does sometimes justify the means. You don't need to be a dick to get there, just show him how much of a softie he is and he'll have a change of heart.

I like rivaling Sebastian generally because it makes him a man of action instead of just a pious guy that beleives the maker will see him through all the time.
He doesn't turn from his religion, but sees that he can do something in the name of that religion rather than beleiving it'll do it for him.

[Asdara]

Of the Rivalmances, I think only Merrill's is the only one that really works for still deeply caring, just caring more than she does about her. The Anders Rivalmance is... well it works if you actually ARE pro-templar and just hot for apostate/abomination or, again, trying to "save" him from himself. If you're pro-mage rivalmancing Anders it makes pretty much no sense at all with the dialog you get. Fenris... works, but it has to center on the mage issue more than "hey I'm cool with slavery" to make sense, but being with someone who kinda hates what you are and what you're about without building an emotional bridge is awkward to say the least - could be a hot dom/sub thing if you stretch it I suppose. I've never romanced Isabella (too easy!) so I don't know how that goes.

For Sebastian - it seems like Rivalmance is just pushing him away from the Chantry and into his Royal role, but he's soooo pissy about it that I rarely have bothered.

[Quething]

Asdara wrote...
I've never romanced Isabella (too easy!) so I don't know how that goes.

Heh. Isabela's actually probably the single hardest companion to romance. You get exactly one chance to start things and the postcoital conversation is bugged all to hell so it's easy to mess up. It's also overriden by every single other romance.

Honestly I think the only Rivalmance that doesn't make sense is Anders, and that's only because Anders' rivalry itself doesn't really make sense. The scale is really poorly named, it's not "friend or rival," it's "friend I agree with on a fundamental issue or friend I disagree with on a fundamental issue." Now, Aveline and Fenris will say you're "not friends" if you rival them, but that's because between the two of them they have the social intuition of a wet sack. They still love Hawke and Hawke still loves them, they hang out together and watch each other's backs and rely on each other. Merrill looks up to you even if you hate blood magic, knows you're yelling at her because you care, just as she does with Marethari. Sebastian appreciates that you're the first person who's ever actually listened to him and cared about his opinion, whether you agree with it or not.

Nobody spends six years at the side of someone they hate.

[bleetman]

Some rivalmancing makes sense. Unfortunately, 'rivalry' tends to be an annoying catch-all term for anything they don't like. Which is sloppy, and needs distinction. For instance, there's two ways to rivalmance Merrill:

- be welcoming and supporting when she first turns up, befriend her, but ultimately deny her That Thing She Needs That I Can't Remember The Name Of because, I don't know, you want to protect her from herself and all that noise.
- be a complete jerk to her, all the time. Also deny her That Thing.

The first one, to me, works pretty well. The second one obviously doesn't, but since they didn't actually differentiate between disagreement and disapproval, you effectively end up in the same state either way. That's the problem.

[Asdara]

Quething wrote...

Asdara wrote...
I've never romanced Isabella (too easy!) so I don't know how that goes.

Heh. Isabela's actually probably the single hardest companion to romance. You get exactly one chance to start things and the postcoital conversation is bugged all to hell so it's easy to mess up. It's also overriden by every single other romance.

I meant she seems too easy to get into bed with - not that the romance is easy to execute, which I wouldn't know because I don't go for her (I don't go for Merrill either, as I usually play a female Hawke and I rather like myself with the guys rather than the gals - but I've seen my fiance go for Merrill and tag Isabella once or twice)

[sylvanaerie]

The only rivalmance that makes complete sense to me is Merrill's. Those of my Hawke's who romance her (on rivalry path) see it as 'watching out for her best interests even if she doesn't appreciate it'. I never have to be nasty at all to her, I can be completely loving and to some extent, supportive, (just deny her the arulin'holm and warn her against demonic beasties and blood magic) and destroying Taronhe's books will net you 50 points in total (if you read the final one for the 2 points, an additional ten rivalry if you destroy that one too). A couple well chosen lines in the Fade, turn down Torpor's deal, and voila, she's at nearly max without you ever once having to be nasty to her. Esp since they fixed gifts, and rivals now get rivalry instead of friendship with them, she can be maxed out quickly and painlessly. I realize that's more a game mechanics kind of thing but the point I am trying to make is, you can still be kind/loving to her and rival her.

Fenris takes a bit more stretching of the imagination, but my first Rivalmance with him was on a completely pacifistic mage Hawke, (who prefered diplomacy/forgiveness over vengeance--she even spared Gascard Du'puis) and argued against his more "Kill the mages" attitudes. Some of the dialogues even reflect her trying to get him to give up his vendetta (reminding him that vengeance didn't make him feel better when he killed Hadriana, talking him out of killing his sister, etc).
My second rivalmance with him was a sassy gay Hawke who enjoyed watching that vein in his temple throb, and never missed an opportunity to get him to laugh. Both cared equally about him and both had their own approach to make the connection that would bond them.

Sebastian's romance is boring, friend, rival however it plays out. Sorry Chantry boy is fun to flirt with (because he gets as flustered as Alistair did in DAO), but the game hardly recognizes it save for a couple lines in the DLC's. But I suppose it makes sense he can be convinced to give up the chantry (and respects Hawke's opinions enough to want to go back and be prince with her in a political union) but still, boring.

I've never been able to successfully Rivalmance Isabela to completion. My choice for it was a humorous rogue Hawke and the lines just didn't fit. I haven't tried to rival her since, I much prefer her friended.

The thought of romancing Anders nauseates me. He is SO NOT my type, so while I've friended and rivaled him (and my Hawke's perceived him from every emotion of friend to pity to bonafide loathing), I've never been able to take that leap into romancing him.

[Gervaise]

I actually found it quite hard to get the friendship points with Sebastian because it meant not saying what I really wanted to, which meant I was likely to be always mid range and not able to trip the next stage of romance either way.

Tell him not to listen to the demon in the Harriman estate and you get rival points, tell him that the demon has a valid arguement, and you get friendship points. I generally disagree with anything demon's say on principle because I know they are trying to manipulate the situation.
Tell Elthina that she is useless because she won't properly intervene and diffuse a bad situation and you get rival points. Tell Sebastian that he should go back and rule Starkhaven (because not doing so is shirking his responsbilities) and you get rival points. Let him take the easy way (and selfish way) out, say what he wants to hear and tell him to stay in his comfortable life in the Chantry and you get friendship.
Sebastian says that it doesn't make much difference who is in charge when a book on his own family history actually shows this is not the case and he wouldn't be a prince if his ancestor had not taken a stand against tyranny, without incurring any bloodshed. It was annoying that this could not be brought up in conversation and the assumption seems to be that the only way of achieving success in Starkhaven is at the head of an army.
So a rivalmance makes sense but the dialogue options don't properly represent this. Mind you the romance is pretty disappointing whichever you choose but I believe if you choose the rivalmance, you do actually get a kiss.

[Dwarva]

Mind you the romance is pretty disappointing whichever you choose but I believe if you choose the rivalmance, you do actually get a kiss.

ORLY?

That's interesting...I'm planning on rivalmancing Sebastian this time round and was under the impression there was no physical contact whatsoever...hmmmm....

I was mainly planning on rivalmancing as opposed to friendmancing for the headcannon that the two of them could be getting it on behind the scenes.

Modifié par Staarbux, 07 mai 2012 - 11:18 .

[Monica21]

Staarbux wrote...
So I'm already considering my next playthrough and want to romance up Sebastian. But having looked at the criteria for his rivalmance, I can't get my head around why he would actually want to be with Hawke after all the actions that cause him to rival her. Why would Sebastian love Hawke if she was constantly making
dishonourable and disagreeable choices? If she is always siding against
the chantry which is something he cares about?So I did a bit of digging and looked at the same criteria for all the other LIs.

Which criteria are you looking at for Sebastian? There is a way to successfully rivalmance him and (aside from one cringe-worthy flirt) it made sense. You don't have to hate on the Chantry or do anything dishonorable, you just have to push him toward Starkhaven instead of the Chantry. His Questioning Beliefs dialogue needs to push him that way.

Honestly, I found the Sebastian rivalmance to be the most satisfying of all the romances.

[M0RD3CA1 VII]

I too am trying to rivalmance Sebastian. I've already beaten both games. So, I decided to play back through both of them as a female character, and become royalty in both games.

[sylvanaerie]

Staarbux wrote...

Mind you the romance is pretty disappointing whichever you choose but I believe if you choose the rivalmance, you do actually get a kiss.

ORLY?

That's interesting...I'm planning on rivalmancing Sebastian this time round and was under the impression there was no physical contact whatsoever...hmmmm....

I was mainly planning on rivalmancing as opposed to friendmancing for the headcannon that the two of them could be getting it on behind the scenes.

No, you don't get a kiss, that was a rumor started on the boards when Legacy came out. I certainly didn't get one on my run so I'd be curious to know what someone does (if anything) to get it.  Aside from a couple lines being different in the DLCs (mostly between Sebastian and Hawke sibling), the game makes little distinction in the relationship. 

I will say of the two, I found his friendmance to be more satisfying.  He seems a lot sweeter when friended.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 07 mai 2012 - 06:35 .

[Monica21]

The thing with the friendmance is that I'm not sure anyone ever figured out what a "chaste marriage" is, and my Hawke has no interest in being a Chantry sister.

And I'm pretty sure there's no kiss.

[M0RD3CA1 VII]

Monica21 wrote...

The thing with the friendmance is that I'm not sure anyone ever figured out what a "chaste marriage" is, and my Hawke has no interest in being a Chantry sister.

And I'm pretty sure there's no kiss.

He's a "monk" and you're a "nun" No kiss, and definitely no sex.

[Quething]

Asdara wrote...
I meant she seems too easy to get into bed with - not that the romance is easy to execute, which I wouldn't know because I don't go for her (I don't go for Merrill either, as I usually play a female Hawke and I rather like myself with the guys rather than the gals - but I've seen my fiance go for Merrill and tag Isabella once or twice)

Yes, but that's what I'm saying. She's the single hardest companion to sleep with, full stop. Any other companion, you just have to pick one or two out of dozens of available flirts, you get multiple opportunities to get them to a point where they're showing up at the mansion. Fenris even has two different conversations that can lead to sex. Isabela has one line. You miss it, you're done. No sex. Period. Ever.

If you're talking about her personal sexual history, Anders has been around the block as many times as she has, and seems a lot more desperate. (Interesting comparison there, actually; both Anders and Isabela will hit on you the first time you speak after their recruitment mission is over. Isabela, however, Hawke just helps out of, apparently, either kindness or curiosity, both of which are reasonable reasons for Izzy to think there's room to play around a bit. Anders, Hawke may help for completely mercenary reasons - he's got the maps and won't give them up if you don't, so he's got less reason to think that a few nice words are a great reason to be TOTALLY IN LOVE.)

@Bleet: Ok, yeah, the system's certianly a bit broken. But it's not the fundamental idea of "disagreeing with the person I love" that doesn't make sense, is what I'm saying. It's just the "we don't actually always know what we want Rivalry to mean and we're going to break our own rules and premise for the system" that the writers do. 

[keesio74]

The rivalmance thing definitely needs work. I had my list of complaints in an old thread:
http://social.biowar.../index/11755635

Modifié par keesio74, 08 mai 2012 - 04:40 .

[Asdara]

Quething wrote...

Asdara wrote...
I meant she seems too easy to get into bed with - not that the romance is easy to execute, which I wouldn't know because I don't go for her (I don't go for Merrill either, as I usually play a female Hawke and I rather like myself with the guys rather than the gals - but I've seen my fiance go for Merrill and tag Isabella once or twice)

Yes, but that's what I'm saying. She's the single hardest companion to sleep with, full stop. Any other companion, you just have to pick one or two out of dozens of available flirts, you get multiple opportunities to get them to a point where they're showing up at the mansion. Fenris even has two different conversations that can lead to sex. Isabela has one line. You miss it, you're done. No sex. Period. Ever.

If you're talking about her personal sexual history, Anders has been around the block as many times as she has, and seems a lot more desperate. (Interesting comparison there, actually; both Anders and Isabela will hit on you the first time you speak after their recruitment mission is over. Isabela, however, Hawke just helps out of, apparently, either kindness or curiosity, both of which are reasonable reasons for Izzy to think there's room to play around a bit. Anders, Hawke may help for completely mercenary reasons - he's got the maps and won't give them up if you don't, so he's got less reason to think that a few nice words are a great reason to be TOTALLY IN LOVE.)

@Bleet: Ok, yeah, the system's certianly a bit broken. But it's not the fundamental idea of "disagreeing with the person I love" that doesn't make sense, is what I'm saying. It's just the "we don't actually always know what we want Rivalry to mean and we're going to break our own rules and premise for the system" that the writers do. 

  I'm sorry, it seems I have offended thee - it was not my intent to slander the good pirate lady.  I usually just go the 'besties' route with her on my rouge.  My warrior and her butt heads over honor and all that jazz.  My mage usually just envies her the freedom she has.  It's a perception thing for me, and it carries over from DAO where some of my wardens totally hit that with Zevran because, well the world was going to end soon so why the heck not?


Long term she's just not my type I guess.  I get seasick.