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"I've seen some things man." (Thoughts on dark endings)


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#1
Taboo

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 I'll only be discussing topical information about certain things here because a concrete analysis of themes in the following films could cause Mr. Priestly to have a stroke and for good reason. You are more than welcome to do reasearch on the following films but I should warn you that they shouldn't be taken lightly.

I've been very......distressed by certain members believing that Mass Effect 3 benefits from having an incredibly dark ending and is somehow fresh,hip and cool for being so raw. I think this analysis is to glib and in the following topic I'll be presenting topical information on three films proving that what Mass Effect 3 contains is not even close to being hip or new and I will then add thoughts on what maturity in a narrative means to me using said content.

To paraphrase Sovreign "Rudimentary art world participants, you stumble around, fumbling in ignorance, blissfully unaware of narratives infinitely more distressing."

Cinema's Private Hell: A taste for the curious!

These are the jimmy ruslters, the ones that are spoken about in hushed tones, the ones that cause people to stop watching films for weeks and in one case got the director killed. These are all real films. They are not jokes coming from 4chan or SomethingAwful. They all exist and all have audiences in some capacity. Here we go.

The Original God Child: The Baby of Mâcon

This film by the legendary Peter Greenaway stars Julia Ormond and Ralph Fiennes (you may know him as Lord Voldemort now!) and has an incredibly simple plot, it's about a baby in the village of Macon.......

The village has some issues at the opening of the film, crops are not growing, disease is setting in and worst of all babies are not being born! In what can only be perceived as a miracle an elderly woman gives with to a beautiful baby boy, perfectly healthy. Julia Ormond sees this and takes the baby under her wing, claiming that it is indeed hers because an old hag couldn't possibly have given birth to such a monster. Furthermore she announces that it is a virgin birth (you can see the undertones here) and uses the baby to cull favor with the villagers and Ralph Fiennes. This eventually attracts the attention of the Catholic Church, who decided that they and they alone should have control of such power and attempt to wrestle control from Julia Ormond. Rather than let the Church take the baby away she smothers it and is subsequently punished. But the church decides that that isn't enough and that they can still make money off of this. Some of the last images of the film are of a dead baby being cut apart and sold for tokens of good luck. Charming isn't it? :sick:

Something is wroing with Miss Gainsbourg: Antichrist

This was a big jimmy rustler an Cannes a few years back. I remember the press conference after the film. I man stood up and asked the director how he could justify what we had just seen on screen. Lars said he didn't have to explain. It didn't go well. This film stars Willem Dafoe (you should know who he is!) and Charlotte Gainsbourg (daughter of Serge, a singer who was well before my time) as husband and wife. They are the only two real characters in the film, known simply as "He" and "She".

What is Antichrise about? It begins with the death of baby. This obviously has quite an effect on He and She. To recover, He decides to take She to their cabin in the woods. Something is wrong with She. Is she possessed? Is she crazy? We are never really given an answer but what I can tell you is that the final twenty minutes of this film are so violent (something happens with a wood block and a pair of scisscors that you will never forget :sick:) that people actually got up and left the Cannes screening. People told me they didn't watch films for weeks because the ending was so grotesque, so violent and so repulsive it damaged them in some capacity. Sounds fun right?

Gouge Away: Lessons from Pasonlini's Salo

This is the film that is still spoken of in hushed whispers where I come from. The film that still to this day terrifies people. It is still very popular where I come from and is supported by such illuminaries as Martin Scorsese and Alec Baldwin (THAT ALEC BALDWIN). This film got it's director killed. Murdered. Run over multiple times with his own car. I was no where close to being born when Pasolini was kill but I do have a friend who knew him, the film critic David Ehrenstein. Mr. Ehrenstein said plain and simple that Pasolini was murdered by Fascists and that the report that he was killed by someone else are patently false. Pasolini was hounded by Fascists for years and was evetually done in by them.

What kind of film would do that? What could be so awful that it would cause such a terrible act of violence? I'm not going to tell you in any detail as such direct discussion would get me banned. What I will tell you is that everything that happens in Salo is a direct indictment of Italian Fascism, symbolic of the debauchery, the hatred, the violence and the opression. :(

What has this got to do with anything?

The end as it stands right now is a paltry excuse at being deep and philosophical. I might have achieved the same level of depth in Middle School when depressed, I could have gone and locked myself in the bathroom stall and wrote grotesque stories about how angry I was with the world. All I see at the end of Mass Effect 3 at this time is death and destruction...........without any need for it. We have spent thirty plus hours attempting to save the galaxy from the Reapers and the best we are given is a schizoid bullrush to the end? The best case scenario for Shepard is to have him lying in a pile of rubble bleeding out? There is no reflection or consitency in the endings. There is no relection upon critical thematic material. The characters are put aside in favor of a failed Kubrickian attempt at philosophy. This is the part where I can truly shake my head in disgust. No light in a narrative that was always about hope. No reflection upon anything but destruction. No hope. Maturity in art comes from reflection upon key themes. The three above films are dark by nature and all have suitable reflections upon that in the end. Mass Effect 3 does not and I perceive it to be a failure because of it. I hope to see this rectified in the extended cut.



When I post these topics I usually get quite a bit of Private messages ( I was even asked to be interviewd for a blog). I really appreciate reading what you have to say about what I right and also about whatever critcisms you may have. If you feel so inclined please send me a message.

I'm also preparing notes on what my next topic should be........what do people want to see? Tales of hubris? A topic about the need for blue babies? How the ending insults the audience? The lingerie model? <- That's a funny story.

#2
crimzontearz

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some people still believe the ending of "buried" is soooo awesome and artsy

oh and let's not forget the people blaming the americans for being too childish/dumb to appreciate the original superdowner ending of "the descent"


whatever, thank you Bioware...no wait, thank you Casey...hope you are happy that your ending made it for me physically impossible to replay the final chapter of my most beloved franchise

#3
Ecrulis

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I could not have stated my opinions better. I simply do not understand how these dark grim endings that border on Nihilism are supposed to be fitting for this series; it simply makes no sense whatsoever.

Modifié par Ecrulis, 30 avril 2012 - 03:47 .


#4
ReXspec

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As I'm sure you well know, the only thing we can do right now is watch and wait.

Bioware is sleeping in a proverbial lions den. To put it dramatically, the Bioware fandom was awoken and put into a fit of rage because of the ending. Now, the lions have ceased their vicious gnashing of teeth and raking of claws, and the forums are now filled with bitter and menacing growls.

If they botch the EC, there will be hell to pay and they will awaken the "lions den." Only, the fans won't LITERALLY be attacking them personally, but will be attacking their wallets.

And when you are threatened with the possibility of being broke, believe me, you start to listen to anything that even comes close to something that can get you out of the red.

Bioware needs to remember that, when you are making a game, "Artistic Integrity" does not apply for one reason: THE FANS ARE INVOLVED IN THE GAMES INCEPTION AND CREATION.

#5
Unit-Alpha

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I read the wiki page on Salo. Wow, that's disturbing.

#6
frylock23

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Well, I won't claim to be any deep student of film or literature, but I will say that any time I have run across an ending that's dark that has worked for me on any level, it's because I have felt it coming across the entire work. You always knew instinctively that things will not end well. And while we always had the knowledge that things SHOULD NOT end well, everything else about the ME series has been one victory after another in face of overwhelming, even impossible odds. So, while I expected an ending that had some elements of loss to it, even pretty drastic loss, I also KNEW from what the previous installments had set us all up to expect that somehow we would come out on top and triumph. That's where all three endings let me down. There is absolutely nothing about any of them that let me feel any meaningful sense of victory, and because of that, I feel they are a massive failure. One way or another, Shepard always wins, and wins in a meaningful way. BioWare pretty much prevents that at the end of ME3, so it fails.

#7
nitefyre410

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I agree... there was nothing in the Mass Effect universe that dictated a need for a "Kill'em all" ending. Even worst is Casey Hudson, Walters and Bioware keep trying to peddle this ending as deep and meaningful... its such bull. There is nothing fresh or hip about it..

Well unless people like the message that the only way to overcome difference between two parties is the complete genocide and destruction of the other.

#8
humes spork

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The issue as I see it is the Mass Effect series has always been a rather rich bed for waxing philosophical, but that has always been an engine of the plot (and even game mechanics) residing within subtext. I'd argue the case of ME3's ending is a failure in execution opposed to a failure in theme.

#9
Ecrulis

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I also really don't understand when it became childish to enjoy a well written happy ending (relatively speaking) was the already staggering cost of life in the war with the reapers not enough to make it "bittersweet"?

#10
Kunari801

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I agree, the ending isn't "innovative" as dark endings aren't new.  It took me over a week before I could even re-start my "new" ME1 Shepard again and only Head-Canon got me there.   The rush of the last mission in ME1 was still good as is ME2 when I imported that character in.  

The ending of ME3 does put a dark color on the events in ME1 and ME2.  For example: when I got the Normandy SR2 in ME2 it was always a happy moment, now it's bitter-sweet. 

Modifié par Kunari801, 30 avril 2012 - 03:58 .


#11
incinerator950

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Or just use the explanation that they ran out of time and had to rush some sort of meaning into a flash job to make up for a lot of lost ground.

#12
Unit-Alpha

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Also, it's a hell of a lot harder to write a happy ending that isn't cheesy than to write a depressing ending. I suppose Bioware's writers just don't have that kind of talent.

#13
Kunari801

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Unit-Alpha wrote...

Also, it's a hell of a lot harder to write a happy ending that isn't cheesy than to write a depressing ending. I suppose Bioware's writers just don't have that kind of talent.


Are you implying that ME1 and ME2's endings were "Cheesy"? 

#14
PoisonMushroom

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It's really weird. Tonally the ending is actually really hopeful. Uplifting electronic synth lines, and your friends looking off at a beautiful vista. What's strange is that whilst everything we see is really hopeful; everything we actually know about the ending is really bleak. It's completely mismatched. 

All the death and destruction is kind of visually ignored, so you don't feel so bad. I just wiped out the Geth, at least let me see it happening, so I can feel the weight that my decision has had. Instead it's just buried in the facts for me to feel sad and confused about retrospectively.

Modifié par PoisonMushroom, 30 avril 2012 - 04:00 .


#15
Whimper

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There have certainly been films that have got the dark ending right. Antichrist was one of them. I'd add Rosemary's Baby as another.

Mass Effect was never among that peerage.

#16
Taboo

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Unit-Alpha wrote...

Also, it's a hell of a lot harder to write a happy ending that isn't cheesy than to write a depressing ending. I suppose Bioware's writers just don't have that kind of talent.


It amuses me when Mac Walters muses on the wasteland he created.

Amusing.

And yes, it is much harder to right a happy ending that works.

I have seen that from Drew but not from Mr. Walters.

Oh, and Salo, yeah it's pretty ****ed up.

#17
Oldbones2

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ReXspec wrote...

As I'm sure you well know, the only thing we can do right now is watch and wait.

Bioware is sleeping in a proverbial lions den. To put it dramatically, the Bioware fandom was awoken and put into a fit of rage because of the ending. Now, the lions have ceased their vicious gnashing of teeth and raking of claws, and the forums are now filled with bitter and menacing growls.

If they botch the EC, there will be hell to pay and they will awaken the "lions den." Only, the fans won't LITERALLY be attacking them personally, but will be attacking their wallets.

And when you are threatened with the possibility of being broke, believe me, you start to listen to anything that even comes close to something that can get you out of the red.

Bioware needs to remember that, when you are making a game, "Artistic Integrity" does not apply for one reason: THE FANS ARE INVOLVED IN THE GAMES INCEPTION AND CREATION.


People said there would be hell to pay if ME 3 didn't deliver. 

After it was released, people said there would be hell to pay if Bioware didn't fix the endings.

After Bioware refused to fix the endings, people said there would be hell to pay if they refused to talk about it at PAX.

After PAX  now people say there will be hell to pay if the EC doesn't cut it.

Seeing a pattern here?



Don't get me wrong, this has been a bad 2 months for Bioware, and a worse 2 months for EA, but its hardly pulling down the company. 

And I think when the EC fails (as it will, unless Bioware is lying AGAIN, and they change the ending) you won't see anywhere near the level of reaction as when the ending failed for the first time.  Maybe at most half the level of rage.


After all people move on, they move forward.  And Bioware has been very careful to not to hype this **** at all.  So they can't lie themselves into a corner again.



Most likely, when the EC fails, longtime fans will just sadly, quietly leave Bioware.  And see their once beloved Developer as just another company.

Modifié par Oldbones2, 30 avril 2012 - 04:09 .


#18
Taboo

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Patrick Weekes has been dropping inferences on Twitter. Not hints mind you but things to make inferences from.

Watch him and pay attention.

#19
Zardoc

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crimzontearz wrote...

some people still believe the ending of "buried" is soooo awesome and artsy

oh and let's not forget the people blaming the americans for being too childish/dumb to appreciate the original superdowner ending of "the descent"


whatever, thank you Bioware...no wait, thank you Casey...hope you are happy that your ending made it for me physically impossible to replay the final chapter of my most beloved franchise



Dude. That's a horror flick. Of course it needs a downer ending.

#20
nitefyre410

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PoisonMushroom wrote...

It's really weird. Tonally the ending is actually really hopeful. Uplifting electronic synth lines, and your friends looking off at a beautiful vista. What's strange is that whilst everything we see is really hopeful; everything we actually know about the ending is really bleak. It's completely mismatched. 

All the death and destruction is kind of visually ignored, so you don't feel so bad. I just wiped out the Geth, at least let me see it happening, so I can feel the weight that my decision has had. Instead it's just buried in the facts for me to feel sad and confused about retrospectively.

 

There is nothing meaningful about Destory( as well as the other endings) it just tacked on nonsense that is used to produce a "Dark" ending becuase Casey Hudson and  Mac Walters though it would be cool.    Honestly  I find Destory just as revolting as Synthesis because it basically says.  "The only way to overcome any difference is to completly wipe of the other party."  That is  complete nonsense... the Reapers are the problem not the Geth or EDI.  

They are tacked to the ending just make some cheap attempt  at " Oh we have to show sacrfice and make it hard choice... in short. Its BULL... complete and utter bull.    Bioware is so full of it  so aggrivating. 

#21
humes spork

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Taboo-XX wrote...

And yes, it is much harder to right a happy ending that works.

Well, this is extraordinarily so in the case of ME3, which was bound from the beginning to not merely include the grotesque but wallow in it before popping the player out the other end of the narrative. The Reapers are narratively associated with the grotesque from the opening scenes of ME1, especially in the prothean beacon vision (which was honestly one of the most intriguing cutscenes in the entire game for the downright subliminal use of the grotesque to underscore the Reapers' characterization).

Nice work pointing out the grotesque in film, by the way, and not merely citing examples of dark endings without elements of the grotesque. It really highlights that failure in execution. Especially in light that BW simultaneously acknowledged and downplayed the importance of that grotesque imagery to the Reapers and the narrative structure in question. For all that it was worth in the game, that endgame walk through the Citadel (between going through the Conduit to confronting TIM) was probably the most relevant, thematically-appropriate, reflective, and striking moment of the game directly linked to the Reapers themselves.

Modifié par humes spork, 30 avril 2012 - 04:14 .


#22
Taboo

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humes spork wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

And yes, it is much harder to right a happy ending that works.

Well, this is extraordinarily so in the case of ME3, which was bound from the beginning to not merely include the grotesque but wallow in it before popping the player out the other end of the narrative. The Reapers are narratively associated with the grotesque from the opening scenes of ME1, especially in the prothean beacon vision (which was honestly one of the most intriguing cutscenes in the entire game for the downright subliminal use of the grotesque to underscore the Reapers' characterization).

Nice work pointing out the grotesque in film, by the way, and not merely citing examples of dark endings without elements of the grotesque. It really highlights that failure in execution.


The failure in execution is what bothers me the most. I means it's so bad it's not even funny. I laugh at it because there are things out there that are so much worse. I mean I only highlighted some the nastiest things I could. It's been done before and it's been done better.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 30 avril 2012 - 04:11 .


#23
Laurencio

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Taboo-XX wrote...

 I'll only be discussing topical information about certain things here because a concrete analysis of themes in the following films could cause Mr. Priestly to have a stroke and for good reason. You are more than welcome to do reasearch on the following films but I should warn you that they shouldn't be taken lightly.

I've been very......distressed by certain members believing that Mass Effect 3 benefits from having an incredibly dark ending and is somehow fresh,hip and cool for being so raw. I think this analysis is to glib and in the following topic I'll be presenting topical information on three films proving that what Mass Effect 3 contains is not even close to being hip or new and I will then add thoughts on what maturity in a narrative means to me using said content.

To paraphrase Sovreign "Rudimentary art world participants, you stumble around, fumbling in ignorance, blissfully unaware of narratives infinitely more distressing."

Cinema's Private Hell: A taste for the curious!

These are the jimmy ruslters, the ones that are spoken about in hushed tones, the ones that cause people to stop watching films for weeks and in one case got the director killed. These are all real films. They are not jokes coming from 4chan or SomethingAwful. They all exist and all have audiences in some capacity. Here we go.

The Original God Child: The Baby of Mâcon

This film by the legendary Peter Greenaway stars Julia Ormond and Ralph Fiennes (you may know him as Lord Voldemort now!) and has an incredibly simple plot, it's about a baby in the village of Macon.......

The village has some issues at the opening of the film, crops are not growing, disease is setting in and worst of all babies are not being born! In what can only be perceived as a miracle an elderly woman gives with to a beautiful baby boy, perfectly healthy. Julia Ormond sees this and takes the baby under her wing, claiming that it is indeed hers because an old hag couldn't possibly have given birth to such a monster. Furthermore she announces that it is a virgin birth (you can see the undertones here) and uses the baby to cull favor with the villagers and Ralph Fiennes. This eventually attracts the attention of the Catholic Church, who decided that they and they alone should have control of such power and attempt to wrestle control from Julia Ormond. Rather than let the Church take the baby away she smothers it and is subsequently punished. But the church decides that that isn't enough and that they can still make money off of this. Some of the last images of the film are of a dead baby being cut apart and sold for tokens of good luck. Charming isn't it? :sick:

Something is wroing with Miss Gainsbourg: Antichrist

This was a big jimmy rustler an Cannes a few years back. I remember the press conference after the film. I man stood up and asked the director how he could justify what we had just seen on screen. Lars said he didn't have to explain. It didn't go well. This film stars Willem Dafoe (you should know who he is!) and Charlotte Gainsbourg (daughter of Serge, a singer who was well before my time) as husband and wife. They are the only two real characters in the film, known simply as "He" and "She".

What is Antichrise about? It begins with the death of baby. This obviously has quite an effect on He and She. To recover, He decides to take She to their cabin in the woods. Something is wrong with She. Is she possessed? Is she crazy? We are never really given an answer but what I can tell you is that the final twenty minutes of this film are so violent (something happens with a wood block and a pair of scisscors that you will never forget :sick:) that people actually got up and left the Cannes screening. People told me they didn't watch films for weeks because the ending was so grotesque, so violent and so repulsive it damaged them in some capacity. Sounds fun right?

Gouge Away: Lessons from Pasonlini's Salo

This is the film that is still spoken of in hushed whispers where I come from. The film that still to this day terrifies people. It is still very popular where I come from and is supported by such illuminaries as Martin Scorsese and Alec Baldwin (THAT ALEC BALDWIN). This film got it's director killed. Murdered. Run over multiple times with his own car. I was no where close to being born when Pasolini was kill but I do have a friend who knew him, the film critic David Ehrenstein. Mr. Ehrenstein said plain and simple that Pasolini was murdered by Fascists and that the report that he was killed by someone else are patently false. Pasolini was hounded by Fascists for years and was evetually done in by them.

What kind of film would do that? What could be so awful that it would cause such a terrible act of violence? I'm not going to tell you in any detail as such direct discussion would get me banned. What I will tell you is that everything that happens in Salo is a direct indictment of Italian Fascism, symbolic of the debauchery, the hatred, the violence and the opression. :(

What has this got to do with anything?

The end as it stands right now is a paltry excuse at being deep and philosophical. I might have achieved the same level of depth in Middle School when depressed, I could have gone and locked myself in the bathroom stall and wrote grotesque stories about how angry I was with the world. All I see at the end of Mass Effect 3 at this time is death and destruction...........without any need for it. We have spent thirty plus hours attempting to save the galaxy from the Reapers and the best we are given is a schizoid bullrush to the end? The best case scenario for Shepard is to have him lying in a pile of rubble bleeding out? There is no reflection or consitency in the endings. There is no relection upon critical thematic material. The characters are put aside in favor of a failed Kubrickian attempt at philosophy. This is the part where I can truly shake my head in disgust. No light in a narrative that was always about hope. No reflection upon anything but destruction. No hope. Maturity in art comes from reflection upon key themes. The three above films are dark by nature and all have suitable reflections upon that in the end. Mass Effect 3 does not and I perceive it to be a failure because of it. I hope to see this rectified in the extended cut.



When I post these topics I usually get quite a bit of Private messages ( I was even asked to be interviewd for a blog). I really appreciate reading what you have to say about what I right and also about whatever critcisms you may have. If you feel so inclined please send me a message.

I'm also preparing notes on what my next topic should be........what do people want to see? Tales of hubris? A topic about the need for blue babies? How the ending insults the audience? The lingerie model? <- That's a funny story.


I don't think we should ever compare any science fiction to the works of Salo. It's not really fair. However, I do agree, there's nothing really artisticly deep about mass effect's ending. Heck as I see it there's really not anyhting artisticaly deep in anything about Mass Effect, they have some nice themes here and there involving genocide and value of life, but all in all it's very simplistic and very superficially explored. Which I suppose is the nature of anything created for a mainstream audience.

As I see it Mass Effect started off as a Star Trek , Doctor Who, Farcscape and Star Gate type series. There are some philosophical aspects in there, but they are mostly superficial, and we're all happy at the end, we conquer all with innovation and co-operation. Optimism is the name of the game. Then in ME3 it decides that it doesn't want to be old school, it wants to be like Battlestar Galactica, Torchwood and all the other slightly pessimistic and depressing, but popular, modern science fiction.

Basically, I agree with what you just said. =]

Taboo-XX wrote...

humes spork wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

And yes, it is much harder to right a happy ending that works.

Well,
this is extraordinarily so in the case of ME3, which was bound from the
beginning to not merely include the grotesque but wallow in it before
popping the player out the other end of the narrative. The Reapers are
narratively associated with the grotesque from the opening scenes of
ME1, especially in the prothean beacon vision (which was honestly one of
the most intriguing cutscenes in the entire game for the downright
subliminal use of the grotesque to underscore the Reapers'
characterization).

Nice work pointing out the grotesque in film,
by the way, and not merely citing examples of dark endings without
elements of the grotesque. It really highlights that failure in
execution.


The failure in execution is what bothers
me the most. I means it's so bad it's not even funny. I laugh at it
because there are things out there that are so much worse. I mean I only
highlighted some the nastiest things I could. I din't mention films
like Funny Games.

[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sad.png[/smilie]


To be fair, games generally don't have the same quality of execution as films. They are generally more on par with TV series, if that.

Modifié par Laurencio, 30 avril 2012 - 04:11 .


#24
ReXspec

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Oldbones2 wrote...

ReXspec wrote...

As I'm sure you well know, the only thing we can do right now is watch and wait.

Bioware is sleeping in a proverbial lions den. To put it dramatically, the Bioware fandom was awoken and put into a fit of rage because of the ending. Now, the lions have ceased their vicious gnashing of teeth and raking of claws, and the forums are now filled with bitter and menacing growls.

If they botch the EC, there will be hell to pay and they will awaken the "lions den." Only, the fans won't LITERALLY be attacking them personally, but will be attacking their wallets.

And when you are threatened with the possibility of being broke, believe me, you start to listen to anything that even comes close to something that can get you out of the red.

Bioware needs to remember that, when you are making a game, "Artistic Integrity" does not apply for one reason: THE FANS ARE INVOLVED IN THE GAMES INCEPTION AND CREATION.


People said there would be hell to pay if ME 3 didn't deliver. 

After it was released, people said there would be hell to pay if Bioware didn't fix the endings.

After Bioware refused to fix the endings, people said there would be hell to pay if they refused to talk about it at PAX.

After PAX  now people say there will be hell to pay if the EC doesn't cut it.

Seeing a pattern here?



Don't get me wrong, this has been a bad 2 months for Bioware, and a worse 2 months for EA, but its hardly pulling down the company. 

And I think when the EC fails (as it will, unless Bioware is lying AGAIN, and they change the ending) you won't see anywhere near the level of reaction as when the ending failed for the first time.  Maybe at most half the level of rage.


After all people move on, they move forward.  And Bioware has been very careful to not to hype this **** at all.  So they can't lie themselves into a corner again.



Most likely, when the EC fails, longtime fans will just sadly, quietly leave Bioware.  And see their once beloved Developer as just another company.



Bioware has already suffered under severe fan reaction and drop-off in profits.

So, as time goes on if EC doesn't deliver, it will be as you said.

Bioware will die, not with a cry, but a whimper.

#25
Peranor

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I like reading you topics. Keep 'em coming =)
A topic about the need for blue babies would be interesting to read.