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[Taboo]

anorling wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

anorling wrote...

This. I've said this so many times. Why are people insisting on bringing in depression and despair in to the fiction we read to get away from the sh*t we have to deal with in our real lives? There is no need for more sadness in the world. There really isn't.

And to that I respond... what game series were you playing?  Because it certainly wasn't Mass Effect.

People getting killed (and at times senselessly), deep depressive moments, and some hard, hard realistic consquences weren't suddenly dropped on our heads in ME3.  They've been rife through all three games.  Sorry that the themes bothered you, but you only have yourself to blame for buying a game you should have known would have some pretty dark moments.  It was hardly a secret that this game was going to feature a crapsack galaxy.

That's not what he meant. You missed that AND the opening page of this thread. It isn't about the dark themes it's about the lack of anything in the ending. There is only a pit.

Sorry, I was afk for a while so I couldn't respond in time myself. But yes, this is what I meant.

Pits are easy to create. Again. The films in the front page do that, especially the last one. There is no need for such nonsense from such a talented writing team.

[Kileyan]

Ecrulis wrote...

I also really don't understand when it became childish to enjoy a well written happy ending (relatively speaking) was the already staggering cost of life in the war with the reapers not enough to make it "bittersweet"?

Same here, dark, drab dreary and depressing can be overdone ya know? There comes a point where it is not edgy, it becomes trite.

Bittersweet was accomplished for me at the end of the Tutchanka mission, with Mordin's little song on top of the tower. Other stops along the way as well. It is like Casey and his cohorts saw the test players reactions and thought..........woohoo this bittersweet thing is being well recieved, lets have bittersweet x's 1000, it will be 1000 x's better!!!

It go to the point that it was less bittersweet and more of *blah* here we go again. It got overused enough, and then, just in case you hadn't hadn't been put into a bittersweet coma, the ending topped it all off.

A little too much of a "good" thing.

[Superstarsage]

Clearly people are just becoming too in touch with their *whips cape around self* DARK SIDEEEEE HISSSS! But yeah, I'm not quite capable of the intelligent conversation going on around this part o' town. But I figured I would pop in a quick bit and say "I agree". With quotes. Because that's how I roll.

Scratch that, I can provide conversation. Like Taboo has said, either hubris or a huge mistake happened. The main issue is that rushing is kinda hard to vouch for. Mainly due tot his, they put the time to make the three endings within the catalyst.

I mean making the area, making the three sections/choices. I'm not doubting they ran out of time to explain stuff and what not. But, my intense feeling is this is what they always planned. The worst part? That means that this was the best they could pull out of their writing hats. Regardless of whether they had it better explained to themselves, this ending even if it had ALL THE EXPLANATIONS would not cut it for me.

It is as all the ^ have said, bitter. There is no sweet anymore. Even with an explanation i don't think there will be any sweet in there.

[Taboo]

I don't know. You an fix quite a bit. I mean it can't get worse.

Weekes is involved in some capacity which makes me feel better.

As for the rest of the writers I don't know. I would assume EA wouldn't be foolish to let Walters and Hudson run the show again.

Hubris? A genuine mistake? I don't know anymore.

Anyway I'll be writing an opinion piece on what I feel a bittersweet ending is, simply because people have been asking for it.

And then maybe a cautionary tale about hubris? How the current ending insults the audience? A breakdown of the chaos? The story about the lingerie model?

One of those doesn't fit but it's a funny story that will lighten the mood. What do people want? I have so many notes it's not even funny.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 01 mai 2012 - 04:05 .

[WillSheperd_1982]

My first impressions of ME3's ending wasn't necessarily that it was dark, I mean, it wasn't this soul-crushing miasma of utter despair and hopelessness that novels/films like Apocalypse Now, 1984 and Ran were. The thing that struck me the most about the ending was how conspicuously elliptical and self-contradictory it was in construction.

Now take a story, or even just the ending part of a common story and interpret it like this:

A >>> B >>> C >>> D >>> E

One thing leads to another causally, and it remains consistent throughout. Now if you want to be a little more creative, you can change the formula in many ways, like this:

A >>> b >>> c >>> D >>> e

In this example you are still maintaining coherence between what happens before and after, but with the lowercase letters you're giving the audience some room to speculate on certain plot points. It's not as spelled-out for us as in the first example. Was b really goodbye between the two lovers? Is e hiding something? Alternately, if you wanna be the cool guy you can reverse the order of the letters (reverse chronology) or scramble the letters up alltogether (non-linear chronology).

This is what I felt ME3's ending did: 

A >>> b............ x >>> y................(k)

In the other examples, the elements were there that allowed the audience some way of filling in the blanks. ME3's ending raises questions like all open-ended endings but sabotages its own attempts at generating meaningful speculation because it not only omits salient plot details needed to draw logical conclusions as to what happened, it also places the audiences at odds with established facts they've learned prior by contradicting those facts. Why is x introduced at the last minute? And why can I not find any tangible way to reconcile plot points x, y, and (k) with A?

This is why those last 15 minutes feel so dreamlike and divorced from everything that happened before. With nothing to grasp it all comes down to guesswork, which reduces the ending to a rorscach drawing more suited for discussion on a forum for David Lynch films.

I don't know whether the writers just ran out of time and/or resources, or whether they actually felt that poking holes in their ending like swiss cheese was all they needed to do to create an ambiguous mind**** of an ending destined for brilliance. No, a cliche even more trite than the dark ending is the "being confusing for confusing's sake" ending, because all the cool kids think that what true art is.

[Taboo]

The problem they have is that quite a few people don't want to replay because so many things are left unsaid.

New topic in an hour or so. It won't be as long as this but it will hopefully get the point across.

[Kunari801]

Taboo-XX wrote...

The problem they have is that quite a few people don't want to replay because so many things are left unsaid.

New topic in an hour or so. It won't be as long as this but it will hopefully get the point across.

I got my new trilogy Shepard started on ME3 last night.  I also purchased ME2: Arrival, it was a good DLC and it slightly changed the beginning of ME3.   Not LotSB but still a good DLC but little disappointed that It didn't really explain how Shepard gets to Earth nor does it introduce James.   I was hoping for more of a link between ME2-to-ME3. 

Anyhow, with my head-canon I was able to start a new ME play through but I agree with your statement, I needed two-weeks to even get the ambition to replay ME1 and almost three to get back into ME3.  With ME1 and ME2 I played them over-and-over many times.  I imagine if the ME3 ending wasn't so emotionally devastating I would have been on my fourth Shepard by now. 

The "Turn ME on/off" event did help, I jumped in with my Renegade Shepard last Saturday.  It did remind me that even with the missing details at the begining, once you get to Mars the game grabs you.   The combat mechanics are so much more fluid than ME or ME2.   

I'm not usually one for head-canon, but once I get to the end, I'll use the Epilogue slides link from my signature as they provide the closure that the stock endings do not.   It's sad a fan-site can use the provided endings yet still provide a more satisfying death for my Shepard than the ME3 team. 

Modifié par Kunari801, 01 mai 2012 - 03:09 .

[Shaigunjoe]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I don't know. You an fix quite a bit. I mean it can't get worse.

Weekes is involved in some capacity which makes me feel better.

As for the rest of the writers I don't know. I would assume EA wouldn't be foolish to let Walters and Hudson run the show again.

Hubris? A genuine mistake? I don't know anymore.

Anyway I'll be writing an opinion piece on what I feel a bittersweet ending is, simply because people have been asking for it.

And then maybe a cautionary tale about hubris? How the current ending insults the audience? A breakdown of the chaos? The story about the lingerie model?

One of those doesn't fit but it's a funny story that will lighten the mood. What do people want? I have so many notes it's not even funny.

I would be more interested on what is the goal of an ambigous ending and how BW could have pulled one off a little better.  It seems to me most people simply wanted ME to equal the sum of its parts, and bioware wanted to try and make it something bigger.  To me the importance of an ambigous ending is that it seems inconclusive at first but as one reflects on what was in the story, they can come to a conclusion that is completly different from others.  Personally, I feel BW succeeded in providng enough evidence to produce a satisfactory conclusion, but failed in that it was not enough, or properly executed to make most people feel happy with their conclusion.

Considering BW stressed so much that this was the player's story of Shep, I almost feel that the ending had to be ambigous at some level, to make the story feel more personal.

[Taboo]

Let me get my notes and I'll prepare a topic tomorrow..........

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 02 mai 2012 - 12:56 .

[TookYoCookies]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I don't know. You an fix quite a bit. I mean it can't get worse....

.

 

Famous last words..

[Taboo]

TookYoCookies wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I don't know. You an fix quite a bit. I mean it can't get worse....

.

 

Famous last words..

OH GOD WHY.

[Kunari801]

TookYoCookies wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I don't know. You an fix quite a bit. I mean it can't get worse....

.

 

Famous last words..

(think happy thoughts.... 
think happy thoughts.... ) 

It would be eaiser to improve the endings than it would be to make them worse.  

(think happy thoughts....  think happy thoughts.... )  

[Shaigunjoe]

Kunari801 wrote...

TookYoCookies wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I don't know. You an fix quite a bit. I mean it can't get worse....

.

 

Famous last words..

(think happy thoughts.... 
think happy thoughts.... ) 

It would be eaiser to improve the endings than it would be to make them worse.  

(think happy thoughts....  think happy thoughts.... )  

Bioware:  CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!

[Taboo]

I think the endings were rushed and hubris is preventing them from being changed completely.

Can five months give us some better outcomes?

Sure.

[Kunari801]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I think the endings were rushed and hubris is preventing them from being changed completely.

Can five months give us some better outcomes?

Sure.

I just fear the hubris is going to prevent them from being improved as well... 

[Taboo]

Kunari801 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I think the endings were rushed and hubris is preventing them from being changed completely.

Can five months give us some better outcomes?

Sure.

I just fear the hubris is going to prevent them from being improved as well... 

From where I come from it only takes one blow. One and only one. Hudson has quite a bit riding on this.

He won't **** it up twice. At least not in the same capacity. The best kind of art comes from pain.

It will be far from perfect but if they can provide me with the one thing my Shepard wanted most.........I'll forget.....everything.

[Yorkston9152]

bioware felt the need to give you a dark ending. They felt the possibility of

Mordin dying
Wrex dying
Thane dying
Legion dying
Tali dying
Miranda dying
Ashely and Kadin dying
The geth/Quarian race being killed off
Jokers family dying

and countless other little dark tidbits wasnt enough to make it brooding and deep enough.

[SpiritWolf448]

Dunno really. What I *can* say is that the ending did not leave me with any kind of feeling I actually accomplished something. There was no sense of "reward" (for lack of a better term; I'm not a native speaker).

Games are, in contrast to movies and books, *active* forms of entertainment where the player actually has to put in effort (to varying degrees) to further the story and bring it to it's conclusion.
And simply put, if one puts in effort, one wants to be rewarded for it. It's basic human nature, really.

And honestly, after 100+ hours playing with "my" version of Shepard and his crew, I did expect something more as an ending/reward than just "Regardless of what you do across 3 games, the galaxy is ****ed either way. Have a nice day. Oh, and please buy our DLC."

It feels like buying that great new car, having a blast with it driving down some scenic mountain route, and shortly before you arrive back home, all of the sudden the auto-pilot takes over and crashes you into the garage wall at top speed. The airbag compartment opens, but there is no airbag inside, just a little sticky note reading "Thanks for buying from us, idiot. Oh, and think about buying our airbag package which is available separately."

Just doesn't feel right. Sorry.

Modifié par SpiritWolf448, 02 mai 2012 - 03:36 .

[Shaigunjoe]

SpiritWolf448 wrote...

Dunno really. What I *can* say is that the ending did not leave me with any kind of feeling I actually accomplished something. There was no sense of "reward" (for lack of a better term; I'm not a native speaker).

Games are, in contrast to movies and books, *active* forms of entertainment where the player actually has to put in effort (to varying degrees) to further the story and bring it to it's conclusion.
And simply put, if one puts in effort, one wants to be rewarded for it. It's basic human nature, really.

And honestly, after 100+ hours playing with "my" version of Shepard and his crew, I did expect something more as an ending/reward than just "Regardless of what you do across 3 games, the galaxy is ****ed either way. Have a nice day. Oh, and please buy our DLC."

It feels like buying that great new car, having a blast with it driving down some scenic mountain route, and shortly before you arrive back home, all of the sudden the auto-pilot takes over and crashes you into the garage wall at top speed. The airbag compartment opens, but there is no airbag inside, just a little sticky note reading "Thanks for buying from us, idiot. Oh, and think about buying our airbag package which is available separately."

Just doesn't feel right. Sorry.

I've never understood this argument.  Personally, I put more effort into reading a 1000 page book, but I don't expect a page at the end saying, you did good! here is your reward!

Didn't portal satire this with cake?

[SpiritWolf448]

That's because movies and books are, from the outset, *passive* forms of entertainment. You just sit back and enjoy the ride (or not), knowing the entire time that you have no say over what happens.

Games, on the other hand, are *active* forms of entertainment. If you don't play the game, the story (if it has one) never unfolds. And with games like the Mass Effects, which are marketed as Shooter-RPGs with terms like "your own journey", "every of your decisions may have dire consequences later", "choose your path" and "everything you do will have a bearing on the outcome" (all paraphrased), I think it is safe to say that generally, people did have a certain expectation, which was gravely let down in the end.

All said and done, though, I think comparing books and movies to games is spotty at best, since the media are somewhat different and people expect different things from each. Or when was the last time you put a book aside because the intro had a bug or the graphics weren't up to snuff? ;-)

[Shaigunjoe]

I was pointing out the relationship between effort and reward. As I said, to read a book of 1000 pages takes more effort than to play through ME3 (for me at least), and I don't expect any kind of pat on the back from the book when I am done.

I disagree about books/movies are are passive entertainment. I think a passive narrative may be a better choice of word, and that is only if the film/book is unambiguous in the plot elements.

Modifié par Shaigunjoe, 02 mai 2012 - 12:48 .

[nitefyre410]

TookYoCookies wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I don't know. You an fix quite a bit. I mean it can't get worse....

.

 

Famous last words..

 


Oh it can get worst...it can always get worst. 

there is even a trope for it - It got Worst

[kobayashi-maru]

The fact much of ME3 is dark isn't the issue, I can take character deaths - Alien 3 is my favourite - it's that it is essentially Star Trek and by the end Solaris. The deaths become funny to me because no-one seems to escape. Jokers family lets do something horrific, Quarian kid with dead mum kill dad etc.

The minor characters were important to fans and letting just one be happy seems impossible. Even Charr and the Krogan mechanic die.

Im waiting for dlc where your LI gets tortured to death or an epilogue where Liara and Shepards baby die during childbirth.