247 réponses à ce sujet

[Oldbones2]

nitefyre410 wrote...

PoisonMushroom wrote...

It's really weird. Tonally the ending is actually really hopeful. Uplifting electronic synth lines, and your friends looking off at a beautiful vista. What's strange is that whilst everything we see is really hopeful; everything we actually know about the ending is really bleak. It's completely mismatched. 

All the death and destruction is kind of visually ignored, so you don't feel so bad. I just wiped out the Geth, at least let me see it happening, so I can feel the weight that my decision has had. Instead it's just buried in the facts for me to feel sad and confused about retrospectively.

 

There is nothing meaningful about Destory( as well as the other endings) it just tacked on nonsense that is used to produce a "Dark" ending becuase Casey Hudson and  Mac Walters though it would be cool.    Honestly  I find Destory just as revolting as Synthesis because it basically says.  "The only way to overcome any difference is to completly wipe of the other party."  That is  complete nonsense... the Reapers are the problem not the Geth or EDI.  

They are tacked to the ending just make some cheap attempt  at " Oh we have to show sacrfice and make it hard choice... in short. Its BULL... complete and utter bull.    Bioware is so full of it  so aggrivating. 

I find it more odd that a series about tolerance and unity (which is forced down renegade human supremists throats in ME 3) suddenly decides at the end that the only way to achieve peace is through forced amalgamation or the destruction of everyone who is different.

It's like the horrible poster child for eugenics.

[Unit-Alpha]

Kunari801 wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Also, it's a hell of a lot harder to write a happy ending that isn't cheesy than to write a depressing ending. I suppose Bioware's writers just don't have that kind of talent.

Are you implying that ME1 and ME2's endings were "Cheesy"? 

When I was talking about endings, I meant series endings. Also, Drew kinda had a major role in both of those. I'm talking about Bioware's writers in a post-Drew world.

[Oldbones2]

ReXspec wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...

ReXspec wrote...

As I'm sure you well know, the only thing we can do right now is watch and wait.

Bioware is sleeping in a proverbial lions den. To put it dramatically, the Bioware fandom was awoken and put into a fit of rage because of the ending. Now, the lions have ceased their vicious gnashing of teeth and raking of claws, and the forums are now filled with bitter and menacing growls.

If they botch the EC, there will be hell to pay and they will awaken the "lions den." Only, the fans won't LITERALLY be attacking them personally, but will be attacking their wallets.

And when you are threatened with the possibility of being broke, believe me, you start to listen to anything that even comes close to something that can get you out of the red.

Bioware needs to remember that, when you are making a game, "Artistic Integrity" does not apply for one reason: THE FANS ARE INVOLVED IN THE GAMES INCEPTION AND CREATION.

People said there would be hell to pay if ME 3 didn't deliver. 

After it was released, people said there would be hell to pay if Bioware didn't fix the endings.

After Bioware refused to fix the endings, people said there would be hell to pay if they refused to talk about it at PAX.

After PAX  now people say there will be hell to pay if the EC doesn't cut it.

Seeing a pattern here?



Don't get me wrong, this has been a bad 2 months for Bioware, and a worse 2 months for EA, but its hardly pulling down the company. 

And I think when the EC fails (as it will, unless Bioware is lying AGAIN, and they change the ending) you won't see anywhere near the level of reaction as when the ending failed for the first time.  Maybe at most half the level of rage.


After all people move on, they move forward.  And Bioware has been very careful to not to hype this **** at all.  So they can't lie themselves into a corner again.



Most likely, when the EC fails, longtime fans will just sadly, quietly leave Bioware.  And see their once beloved Developer as just another company.

Bioware has already suffered under severe fan reaction and drop-off in profits.

So, as time goes on if EC doesn't deliver, it will be as you said.

Bioware will die, not with a cry, but a whimper.

i never said Bioware would fail.  I said longtime fans (myself for example) would leave, and view the company as no different than any other developer.

I don't think that ME 3's ending will bring down Bioware.

But I do think the exodus of its longtime fans will alter the company for the worse.  Fans of an artist/developer are part of what make something what it is. 

Without us BGer's or KoTOR fanboys, who would be around to call for ME3 to have RPG features?  Who would hold Bioware accountable to its past glories?


And that high standard we give them, makes their product better overall.

[PoisonMushroom]

nitefyre410 wrote...

PoisonMushroom wrote...

It's really weird. Tonally the ending is actually really hopeful. Uplifting electronic synth lines, and your friends looking off at a beautiful vista. What's strange is that whilst everything we see is really hopeful; everything we actually know about the ending is really bleak. It's completely mismatched. 

All the death and destruction is kind of visually ignored, so you don't feel so bad. I just wiped out the Geth, at least let me see it happening, so I can feel the weight that my decision has had. Instead it's just buried in the facts for me to feel sad and confused about retrospectively.

 

There is nothing meaningful about Destory( as well as the other endings) it just tacked on nonsense that is used to produce a "Dark" ending becuase Casey Hudson and  Mac Walters though it would be cool.    Honestly  I find Destory just as revolting as Synthesis because it basically says.  "The only way to overcome any difference is to completly wipe of the other party."  That is  complete nonsense... the Reapers are the problem not the Geth or EDI.  

They are tacked to the ending just make some cheap attempt  at " Oh we have to show sacrfice and make it hard choice... in short. Its BULL... complete and utter bull.    Bioware is so full of it  so aggrivating. 

I agree, there isn't anything meaningful to it, but what I'm saying is that it fails another level completely. They tried to make a dark ending, but then to make you feel less crappy about it, they play some funky synth over the top, refuse to visually acknowledge that you just wiped out a whole race of people and give you some pretty planet to look at.

[nitefyre410]

Oldbones2 wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

PoisonMushroom wrote...

It's really weird. Tonally the ending is actually really hopeful. Uplifting electronic synth lines, and your friends looking off at a beautiful vista. What's strange is that whilst everything we see is really hopeful; everything we actually know about the ending is really bleak. It's completely mismatched. 

All the death and destruction is kind of visually ignored, so you don't feel so bad. I just wiped out the Geth, at least let me see it happening, so I can feel the weight that my decision has had. Instead it's just buried in the facts for me to feel sad and confused about retrospectively.

 

There is nothing meaningful about Destory( as well as the other endings) it just tacked on nonsense that is used to produce a "Dark" ending becuase Casey Hudson and  Mac Walters though it would be cool.    Honestly  I find Destory just as revolting as Synthesis because it basically says.  "The only way to overcome any difference is to completly wipe of the other party."  That is  complete nonsense... the Reapers are the problem not the Geth or EDI.  

They are tacked to the ending just make some cheap attempt  at " Oh we have to show sacrfice and make it hard choice... in short. Its BULL... complete and utter bull.    Bioware is so full of it  so aggrivating. 

I find it more odd that a series about tolerance and unity (which is forced down renegade human supremists throats in ME 3) suddenly decides at the end that the only way to achieve peace is through forced amalgamation or the destruction of everyone who is different.

It's like the horrible poster child for eugenics.

 

Exactly  and  it makes wonder does  Walters and Hudson actually unerstand want they made or they completely oblivious.

PoisonMushroom wrote...

*snip* 

I agree, there isn't anything meaningful to it, but what I'm saying is that it fails another level completely. They tried to make a dark ending, but then to make you feel less crappy about it, they play some funky synth over the top, refuse to visually acknowledge that you just wiped out a whole race of people and give you some pretty planet to look at.

    


Honestly I think the Bioware really thinks that we might be too stupid to realize what we just did and did not expect their audience to be this savvy. 

So the question who lacks maturity the gamers or the game developers. 

Modifié par nitefyre410, 30 avril 2012 - 04:20 .

[Taboo]

If Mr. Hudson wants to treat his game like a film it will be critiqued like a film. The ending to his film is terrible.

I can do this all day.

[Laurencio]

Taboo-XX wrote...

If Mr. Hudson wants to treat his game like a film it will be critiqued like a film. The ending to his film is terrible.

I can do this all day.

He said that?

[Taboo]

Laurencio wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

If Mr. Hudson wants to treat his game like a film it will be critiqued like a film. The ending to his film is terrible.

I can do this all day.

He said that?

Oh yes. Jesus. He said that he wanted to make a more cinematic experience and that boss fights were too "video-gamey."

This is my job Mr. Hudson. You will not win.

[Kunari801]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Kunari801 wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Also, it's a hell of a lot harder to write a happy ending that isn't cheesy than to write a depressing ending. I suppose Bioware's writers just don't have that kind of talent.

Are you implying that ME1 and ME2's endings were "Cheesy"? 

When I was talking about endings, I meant series endings. Also, Drew kinda had a major role in both of those. I'm talking about Bioware's writers in a post-Drew world.

Ok just asking.  I feel the ME1 and ME2 endings were "classic" endings but not in any way "cheesy" endings.   I do think it was too easy to not loose anyone squad members in the ME2 ending, but lets assume you did loose much of your team and crew.   Even with all that assumed loss, the ending of ME2 still makes a good ending and shows Shepard in a heroic act (even if he also dies).  

That feeling is missing in ME3's ending and Shepard goes out like a sheep-to-slaughter instead of in a heroic moment. 

[humes spork]

Taboo-XX wrote...

The failure in execution is what bothers me the most. I means it's so bad it's not even funny. I laugh at it because there are things out there that are so much worse. I mean I only highlighted some the nastiest things I could. It's been done before and it's been done better.

Exactly. Especially when the really good stuff in the endgame shines out and does naught but illustrate the worst of it.

Like I mentioned in my post edit, that endgame walk through the Citadel core (sparing silly crap like reusing doodads) was particularly striking for its use of the grotesque to bring full circle the association of that with the Reapers, and to reinforce their ultimate nature. The imagery, symbolism, tonality and atmosphere of that scene was nothing short of spectacular. When you can look at that and seriously think, "hey it's an allusion to the divine comedy!" and actually form a cogent argument to support that conclusion, it's probably not an ill-conceived sequence on its own.

Yet, it's one thirty-second sequence the player doesn't get the opportunity to appreciate or is allowed the time and exposure to sink in, when that imagery and atmosphere should have been the defining characteristic of the game's end.

Modifié par humes spork, 30 avril 2012 - 04:24 .

[nitefyre410]

Taboo-XX wrote...

If Mr. Hudson wants to treat his game like a film it will be critiqued like a film. The ending to his film is terrible.

I can do this all day.

 

Oh it would bring so much  amusement actually play the ending of Mass Effect 3 infront of film critics and watch them just tear it apart..  

[Taboo]

humes spork wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

The failure in execution is what bothers me the most. I means it's so bad it's not even funny. I laugh at it because there are things out there that are so much worse. I mean I only highlighted some the nastiest things I could. It's been done before and it's been done better.

Exactly. Especially when the really good stuff in the endgame shines out and does naught but illustrate the worst of it.

Like I mentioned in my post edit, that endgame walk through the Citadel core (sparing silly crap like reusing doodads) was particularly striking for its use of the grotesque to bring full circle the association of that with the Reapers, and to reinforce their ultimate nature. The imagery, symbolism, tonality and atmosphere of that scene was nothing short of spectacular. Yet, it's one thirty-second sequence the player doesn't get the opportunity to appreciate or is allowed the time and exposure to sink in, when that imagery and atmosphere should have been the defining characteristic of the game's end.

Pretty much. That long walk up to the platform is pretty awesome. You reflect on what has happened before and then the elevator ride occurs and well..........far too many things were cast aside in the favor of whatever the hell Casey Hudson was trying to say.

God I hope Weekes is a major player in the Extended Cut. I PRAY that he is.

[nitefyre410]

Taboo-XX wrote...

humes spork wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

The failure in execution is what bothers me the most. I means it's so bad it's not even funny. I laugh at it because there are things out there that are so much worse. I mean I only highlighted some the nastiest things I could. It's been done before and it's been done better.

Exactly. Especially when the really good stuff in the endgame shines out and does naught but illustrate the worst of it.

Like I mentioned in my post edit, that endgame walk through the Citadel core (sparing silly crap like reusing doodads) was particularly striking for its use of the grotesque to bring full circle the association of that with the Reapers, and to reinforce their ultimate nature. The imagery, symbolism, tonality and atmosphere of that scene was nothing short of spectacular. Yet, it's one thirty-second sequence the player doesn't get the opportunity to appreciate or is allowed the time and exposure to sink in, when that imagery and atmosphere should have been the defining characteristic of the game's end.

Pretty much. That long walk up to the platform is pretty awesome. You reflect on what has happened before and then the elevator ride occurs and well..........far too many things were cast aside in the favor of whatever the hell Casey Hudson was trying to say.

God I hope Weekes is a major player in the Extended Cut. I PRAY that he is.

 

They problem being is how much control will Walters and Hudson still have over the  creative direction of the EC?  This  one question has me worried a great deal  about the quality of the whole thing.

[crimzontearz]

Zardoc wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...some people still believe the ending of "buried" is soooo awesome and artsyoh and let's not forget the people blaming the americans for being too childish/dumb to appreciate the original superdowner ending of "the descent"whatever, thank you Bioware...no wait, thank you Casey...hope you are happy that your ending made it for me physically impossible to replay the final chapter of my most beloved franchise

Dude. That's a horror flick. Of course it needs a downer ending.

yes it was so needed that it was not only cut but retconned in the sequel

[Kunari801]

Taboo-XX wrote...
God I hope Weekes is a major player in the Extended Cut. I PRAY that he is.

Me too!  
I know publically they defended it but that's PR.   I hope --behind the scenes-- the two Doctors had a long talk with Casey and Mac about "don't ****** off the fans" with their "artistic vision". 

[Taboo]

Kunari801 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
God I hope Weekes is a major player in the Extended Cut. I PRAY that he is.

Me too!  
I know publically they defended it but that's PR.   I hope --behind the scenes-- the two Doctors had a long talk with Casey and Mac about "don't ****** off the fans" with their "artistic vision". 

More than anything this has probably been an ego check for the both of them. Don't try **** that isn't in your line of work. It will fail. Furthermore it's already been done.

[humes spork]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Pretty much. That long walk up to the platform is pretty awesome. You reflect on what has happened before and then the elevator ride occurs and well..........far too many things were cast aside in the favor of whatever the hell Casey Hudson was trying to say.

Yep. You don't even see the most grotesque of the imagery, or are impacted by the atmosphere, unless you do what the game is screaming at you to not do -- stop and look around. Like I said, that imagery and atmosphere is something the game should have put in the forefront and forced the player to confront in the endgame rather than be mere window dressing.

That one sequence managed to skeeve me out more than anything Silent Hill (well, when the franchise was good) ever threw at me. Which is a video game and not merely film that used the grotesque to foster atmosphere and provided dark endings that were thematically-appropriate and to great effect, but I digress.

[Ariq]

Thank you for reminding me that Salo existed. Now I won't sleep for a week. I had mercifully forgotten, but no, you had to bring it up. Bah.

Good post, otherwise.

[Laurencio]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Laurencio wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

If Mr. Hudson wants to treat his game like a film it will be critiqued like a film. The ending to his film is terrible.

I can do this all day.

He said that?

Oh yes. Jesus. He said that he wanted to make a more cinematic experience and that boss fights were too "video-gamey."

This is my job Mr. Hudson. You will not win.

Wow.. How could he think any video game could live up to film critique? Let alone a science fiction game, and role playing game. That's madness.

I actually agree on the boss fight scenario though. Not really sure how it would fit in. Fighting Harbinger, sure it's a fun addition but it doesn't really "end" the threat. Fighting TIM is also a bit pointless. Although I would have expected a "final mission" where you actually fought the reapers in some way either by using EMS or directing the fleet, making a final push which ended the threat. It needed a climax, if not a boss fight.

[PoisonMushroom]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Honestly I think the Bioware really thinks that we might be too stupid to realize what we just did and did not expect their audience to be this savvy. 

So the question who lacks maturity the gamers or the game developers. 

I think they were so desperate to avoid a cheesey happy ending, that they went for something bittersweet. Bittersweet endings can be really good if they fit the themes nicely, but they shouldn't just be done for the sake of it, which how it came across here.
 
The next problem is that they went and messed up bittersweet with plotholes anyway. Instead we got a mashup of horrifically bleak (which may end up being less bleak if they retcon a few things in the EC) and silly hopeful visuals. 

[Kunari801]

humes spork wrote...

Yep. You don't even see the most grotesque of the imagery, or are impacted by the atmosphere, unless you do what the game is screaming at you to not do -- stop and look around. Like I said, that imagery and atmosphere is something the game should have put in the forefront and forced the player to confront in the endgame rather than be mere window dressing... 

I did stop to to see what the Keeper was doign and that's when the imagery hit me.   There was the one line from Anderson, "This must be what the Collector ship looked like." to which I was thinking, "No, it's worse.  The bodies are more fresh this time." 

[Panthro90]

"A cold equation had been balanced and he was alone on the ship. Something shapeless and ugly was hurrying ahead of him, going to Woden, where her brother was waiting through the night, but the empty ship still lived for a little while with the presence of the girl who had not known about the forces that killed with neither hatred nor malice. "

The Cold Equations
by Tom Godwin

This is how you write dark SciFi. God this stroy depressed me for weeks in high school.

[Taboo]

humes spork wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Pretty much. That long walk up to the platform is pretty awesome. You reflect on what has happened before and then the elevator ride occurs and well..........far too many things were cast aside in the favor of whatever the hell Casey Hudson was trying to say.

Yep. You don't even see the most grotesque of the imagery, or are impacted by the atmosphere, unless you do what the game is screaming at you to not do -- stop and look around. Like I said, that imagery and atmosphere is something the game should have put in the forefront and forced the player to confront in the endgame rather than be mere window dressing.

That one sequence managed to skeeve me out more than anything Silent Hill (well, when the franchise was good) ever threw at me. Which is a video game and not merely film that used the grotesque to foster atmosphere and provided dark endings that were thematically-appropriate and to great effect, but I digress.

Almost everything was tossed out in the last few minutes. It was so bad it killed the franchise for people. Their is a distinct tonal shift once you reach the Star Child. I have a very hard time believing that the same person who wrote Tuchanka and Rannoch had much input on the matter. And no, I don't need to have a degree in film studies to know this. I was competent enough to regonize thematic changes when I graduated from High School.

[nitefyre410]

humes spork wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Pretty much. That long walk up to the platform is pretty awesome. You reflect on what has happened before and then the elevator ride occurs and well..........far too many things were cast aside in the favor of whatever the hell Casey Hudson was trying to say.

Yep. You don't even see the most grotesque of the imagery, or are impacted by the atmosphere, unless you do what the game is screaming at you to not do -- stop and look around. Like I said, that imagery and atmosphere is something the game should have put in the forefront and forced the player to confront in the endgame rather than be mere window dressing.

That one sequence managed to skeeve me out more than anything Silent Hill (well, when the franchise was good) ever threw at me. Which is a video game and not merely film that used the grotesque to foster atmosphere and provided dark endings that were thematically-appropriate and to great effect, but I digress.

 

Silent Hill does great job of  that especially  Silent Hill 2...  

[Ecrulis]

Kunari801 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
God I hope Weekes is a major player in the Extended Cut. I PRAY that he is.

Me too!  
I know publically they defended it but that's PR.   I hope --behind the scenes-- the two Doctors had a long talk with Casey and Mac about "don't ****** off the fans" with their "artistic vision". 

I find it harder and harder to have even that much hope what I fear is going to happen is that we will get a few more lines of dialogue and speech with starbrat (while still agreeing with him without so much as a whimper) followed by pretty colors and then an epilogue. I fully expect them to try and shove synthesis down our throats as the "best" ending.

Im very close to saying to hell with it and just headcanoning everything past the push to the beam

Modifié par Ecrulis, 30 avril 2012 - 04:36 .