247 réponses à ce sujet

[crimzontearz]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

humes spork wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...The failure in execution is what bothers me the most. I means it's so bad it's not even funny. I laugh at it because there are things out there that are so much worse. I mean I only highlighted some the nastiest things I could. It's been done before and it's been done better.

Exactly. Especially when the really good stuff in the endgame shines out and does naught but illustrate the worst of it.Like I mentioned in my post edit, that endgame walk through the Citadel core (sparing silly crap like reusing doodads) was particularly striking for its use of the grotesque to bring full circle the association of that with the Reapers, and to reinforce their ultimate nature. The imagery, symbolism, tonality and atmosphere of that scene was nothing short of spectacular. Yet, it's one thirty-second sequence the player doesn't get the opportunity to appreciate or is allowed the time and exposure to sink in, when that imagery and atmosphere should have been the defining characteristic of the game's end.

Pretty much. That long walk up to the platform is pretty awesome. You reflect on what has happened before and then the elevator ride occurs and well..........far too many things were cast aside in the favor of whatever the hell Casey Hudson was trying to say.God I hope Weekes is a major player in the Extended Cut. I PRAY that he is.

 They problem being is how much control will Walters and Hudson still have over the  creative direction of the EC?  This  one question has me worried a great deal  about the quality of the whole thing.

this might be the only instance in which EA's greed comes to our aid. If EA sees thiis as a situation in which they might loose to much money they might just force bioware's hand into doing as told.





one can only hope, never thought I'd be praying foe EA's help

[MattFini]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Kunari801 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
God I hope Weekes is a major player in the Extended Cut. I PRAY that he is.

Me too!  
I know publically they defended it but that's PR.   I hope --behind the scenes-- the two Doctors had a long talk with Casey and Mac about "don't ****** off the fans" with their "artistic vision". 

More than anything this has probably been an ego check for the both of them. Don't try **** that isn't in your line of work. It will fail. Furthermore it's already been done.

The most telling thing will be if Mac and Casey retain their current roles on the next ME game. 

Sure there may be some more PR spin indicating that they're working on something "different", but if Mac isn't lead writer and Casey isn't project director we'll know that ME3 was a real screw up for the company.

Modifié par MattFini, 30 avril 2012 - 04:39 .

[StrelokCH]

I disagree to some degree that a "bad" ending for ME3 isn't justified, there shouldn't be a fully "good" ending in my opinion. But ME3 has a lot of death and destruction in it, it doesn't have to end with "everybody dies horribly and you fail", which it doesn't anyway.
If the plot holes are explained in the EC, I will probabaly like the endings since they show that there is no "perfect" choice or way in life.

But... JESUS! Did you have to remind me of Antichrist? I can take Salo, I liked that actually a bit, but Antichrist basically ruined William Daffoe for me, and he is one fine piece of actor. Damn that movie was so... special.

Modifié par StrelokCH, 30 avril 2012 - 04:39 .

[Taboo]

MattFini wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Kunari801 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
God I hope Weekes is a major player in the Extended Cut. I PRAY that he is.

Me too!  
I know publically they defended it but that's PR.   I hope --behind the scenes-- the two Doctors had a long talk with Casey and Mac about "don't ****** off the fans" with their "artistic vision". 

More than anything this has probably been an ego check for the both of them. Don't try **** that isn't in your line of work. It will fail. Furthermore it's already been done.

The most telling thing will be if Mac and Casey retain their current roles on the next ME game. 

Sure there may be some more PR spin indicating that they're working on something "different", but if Mac isn't lead writer and Casey isn't project designer we'll know that ME3 was a real screw up for the company.

Casey is involved in some capcity in the EC but to what degree I don't know. He is apparently on vacation or something so I don't know how he is impacting the beginning of production.

To be honest, if I was EA I would imply that he was working on it but leave the EC up to the rest of the team. The same for Mr. Walters.

Can you imagine the hell that would rain down if it was announced they were heads again?

[Laurencio]

StrelokCH wrote...

I disagree to some degree that a "bad" ending for ME3 isn't justified, there shouldn't be a fully "good" ending in my opinion. But ME3 has a lot of death and destruction in it, it doesn't have to end with "everybody dies horribly and you fail", which it doesn't anyway.
If the plot holes are explained in the EC, I will probabaly like the endings since they show that there is no "perfect" choice or way in life.

But... JESUS! Did you have to remind me of Antichrist? I can take Salo, I liked that actually a bit, but Antichrist basically ruined William Daffoe for me, and he is one fine piece of actor. Damn that movie was so... special.

There's sad, bittersweet and coherently thoughtful endings, and then there are endings where things are bad just for the sake of being bad.

Taboo-XX wrote...

Casey is involved in some capcity in the
EC but to what degree I don't know. He is apparently on vacation or
something so I don't know how he is impacting the beginning of
production.

To be honest, if I was EA I would imply that he was
working on it but leave the EC up to the rest of the team. The same for
Mr. Walters.

Can you imagine the hell that would rain down if it was announced they were heads again?

I doubt they are stupid enough to let Walters do this without peer revision. That was the problem to begin with, Weekes and the others weren't involved in the process. Personally I really hope the people behind Tuchanka are writing and directing the ending, because the destruction of the Quarians left me speechless.

Modifié par Laurencio, 30 avril 2012 - 04:46 .

[Taboo]

StrelokCH wrote...

I disagree to some degree that a "bad" ending for ME3 isn't justified, there shouldn't be a fully "good" ending in my opinion. But ME3 has a lot of death and destruction in it, it doesn't have to end with "everybody dies horribly and you fail", which it doesn't anyway.
If the plot holes are explained in the EC, I will probabaly like the endings since they show that there is no "perfect" choice or way in life.

But... JESUS! Did you have to remind me of Antichrist? I can take Salo, I liked that actually a bit, but Antichrist basically ruined William Daffoe for me, and he is one fine piece of actor. Damn that movie was so... special.

Heh, you should have been at the Cannes press conference.

CHAOS REIGNED.

[nitefyre410]

PoisonMushroom wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Honestly I think the Bioware really thinks that we might be too stupid to realize what we just did and did not expect their audience to be this savvy. 

So the question who lacks maturity the gamers or the game developers. 

I think they were so desperate to avoid a cheesey happy ending, that they went for something bittersweet. Bittersweet endings can be really good if they fit the themes nicely, but they shouldn't just be done for the sake of it, which how it came across here.
 
The next problem is that they went and messed up bittersweet with plotholes anyway. Instead we got a mashup of horrifically bleak (which may end up being less bleak if they retcon a few things in the EC) and silly hopeful visuals. 

 

Yeah but issue is that Mass Effect was already set up for that ... It did not need them force anything and try to be "artsy".   The was story was building to a "Earn  your happy ending." with by they're nature are   bittersweet and happy.Earth and  the other homeworlds were in utter ramshacked ...billions dead. Billons more refugees , massive food and water shortages.   Yeah they came out of it alive but hell they are scared  by it.    

Even with EC and new cutscenes the problem  with endings  are in the choices and as long as they exist as is... its never going to be any good.  

[Ecrulis]

StrelokCH wrote...

I disagree to some degree that a "bad" ending for ME3 isn't justified, there shouldn't be a fully "good" ending in my opinion. But ME3 has a lot of death and destruction in it, it doesn't have to end with "everybody dies horribly and you fail", which it doesn't anyway.
If the plot holes are explained in the EC, I will probabaly like the endings since they show that there is no "perfect" choice or way in life.

But... JESUS! Did you have to remind me of Antichrist? I can take Salo, I liked that actually a bit, but Antichrist basically ruined William Daffoe for me, and he is one fine piece of actor. Damn that movie was so... special.

I guess my opinion would be why wasnt there a full range of endings? and don't get me wrong I dont think there should have been a puppies and rainbows everyone wins no one dies ending either but certian things about the ending seem needlesly dark, did we really need the normandy, the crew LI included stranded on an uncharted planet??? 

[Taboo]

nitefyre410 wrote...

PoisonMushroom wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Honestly I think the Bioware really thinks that we might be too stupid to realize what we just did and did not expect their audience to be this savvy. 

So the question who lacks maturity the gamers or the game developers. 

I think they were so desperate to avoid a cheesey happy ending, that they went for something bittersweet. Bittersweet endings can be really good if they fit the themes nicely, but they shouldn't just be done for the sake of it, which how it came across here.
 
The next problem is that they went and messed up bittersweet with plotholes anyway. Instead we got a mashup of horrifically bleak (which may end up being less bleak if they retcon a few things in the EC) and silly hopeful visuals. 

 

Yeah but issue is that Mass Effect was already set up for that ... It did not need them force anything and try to be "artsy".   The was story was building to a "Earn  your happy ending." with by they're nature are   bittersweet and happy.Earth and  the other homeworlds were in utter ramshacked ...billions dead. Billons more refugees , massive food and water shortages.   Yeah they came out of it alive but hell they are scared  by it.    

Even with EC and new cutscenes the problem  with endings  are in the choices and as long as they exist as is... its never going to be any good.  

I think we'll see different outcomes based on EMS. It would be ****ing stupid to simply explain in a straightforward manner what happened and they've pretty much already said that that isn't going to happen.

[Victia]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Kunari801 wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Also, it's a hell of a lot harder to write a happy ending that isn't cheesy than to write a depressing ending. I suppose Bioware's writers just don't have that kind of talent.

Are you implying that ME1 and ME2's endings were "Cheesy"? 

When I was talking about endings, I meant series endings. Also, Drew kinda had a major role in both of those. I'm talking about Bioware's writers in a post-Drew world.

To be honest I think that the depressing/deep/sad (whatever you want to call it) ending has become the new steriotype and is very cheesy now - the last two films I watched 'the woman in black' and 'the wicker man '73' had 'dark endings-  yes i know the wicker man is an old one but i think that it shows how long this idea of a 'deep' ending meaning death and destruction has been going on for, and while i am not saying that in some cases dark isnt good, i just think that it is becoming very over used!

It almost seems that you cant go anywhere without running in to the dark ending - book, tv, film and games all  seem to be ramming it down our thoats and to me its odd because it has been proved in times of recession/ money problems in general people respond better to the 'happy ending' as they are looking for something to make them feel happier not drag them down further, even when the recession passes i think people enjoy a well thought out ending more than they do a shock one. Just MHO

edit - spellings, too sleeping to make english good

Modifié par Victia, 30 avril 2012 - 04:52 .

[StrelokCH]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Heh, you should have been at the Cannes press conference.

CHAOS REIGNED.

That actually "sold" it to me, I'm unfortunately the kind of "I have to see this" person that falls for these things. I never said I'm intelligent, so I guess it's in dubio pro ******. But this film really shocked me, and I have seen "some **** man".

Laurencio wrote...

There's sad, bittersweet and coherently thoughtful endings, and then there are endings where things are bad just for the sake of being bad.

And I absolutely agree on this, I just think that with plot holes explained the endings won't turn out to be "bad to be bad", except for the low EMS destruction which is just a really long Game Over anyway.

Ecrulis wrote...

I guess my opinion would be
why wasnt there a full range of endings? and don't get me wrong I dont
think there should have been a puppies and rainbows everyone wins no one
dies ending either but certian things about the ending seem needlesly
dark, did we really need the normandy, the crew LI included stranded on
an uncharted planet??? 

I actually like that part. Why? Because it only hurts if the people who are left behind are your friends. Well, and Liara, I guess I should care about her according to the game. But the plot holes surrounding this scene are just horrendous. And I would accept it if there were a non-stranding version too, of course. If I'm pro-something than it is pro-variety. I jsut don't see it as necessity.

Modifié par StrelokCH, 30 avril 2012 - 05:03 .

[MattFini]

My biggest curiosity is seeing how (if at all) they're going to work Harbinger into this.

Hasn't been confirmed, so they may not, but I know Weeks said he would like to see him again so that's SOMETHING.

May not be a boss fight (seems wholly unlikely), but is there a place for him in that mess?

Or is BioWare cool with retroactively ensuing that ME2 is completely worthless from a narrative standpoint?

[Ecrulis]

Taboo-XX wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

PoisonMushroom wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Honestly I think the Bioware really thinks that we might be too stupid to realize what we just did and did not expect their audience to be this savvy. 

So the question who lacks maturity the gamers or the game developers. 

I think they were so desperate to avoid a cheesey happy ending, that they went for something bittersweet. Bittersweet endings can be really good if they fit the themes nicely, but they shouldn't just be done for the sake of it, which how it came across here.
 
The next problem is that they went and messed up bittersweet with plotholes anyway. Instead we got a mashup of horrifically bleak (which may end up being less bleak if they retcon a few things in the EC) and silly hopeful visuals. 

 

Yeah but issue is that Mass Effect was already set up for that ... It did not need them force anything and try to be "artsy".   The was story was building to a "Earn  your happy ending." with by they're nature are   bittersweet and happy.Earth and  the other homeworlds were in utter ramshacked ...billions dead. Billons more refugees , massive food and water shortages.   Yeah they came out of it alive but hell they are scared  by it.    

Even with EC and new cutscenes the problem  with endings  are in the choices and as long as they exist as is... its never going to be any good.  

I think we'll see different outcomes based on EMS. It would be ****ing stupid to simply explain in a straightforward manner what happened and they've pretty much already said that that isn't going to happen.

I just hope that we dont end up having synthesis forced on us as the "best" ending

[Taboo]

Ecrulis wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

PoisonMushroom wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Honestly I think the Bioware really thinks that we might be too stupid to realize what we just did and did not expect their audience to be this savvy. 

So the question who lacks maturity the gamers or the game developers. 

I think they were so desperate to avoid a cheesey happy ending, that they went for something bittersweet. Bittersweet endings can be really good if they fit the themes nicely, but they shouldn't just be done for the sake of it, which how it came across here.
 
The next problem is that they went and messed up bittersweet with plotholes anyway. Instead we got a mashup of horrifically bleak (which may end up being less bleak if they retcon a few things in the EC) and silly hopeful visuals. 

 

Yeah but issue is that Mass Effect was already set up for that ... It did not need them force anything and try to be "artsy".   The was story was building to a "Earn  your happy ending." with by they're nature are   bittersweet and happy.Earth and  the other homeworlds were in utter ramshacked ...billions dead. Billons more refugees , massive food and water shortages.   Yeah they came out of it alive but hell they are scared  by it.    

Even with EC and new cutscenes the problem  with endings  are in the choices and as long as they exist as is... its never going to be any good.  

I think we'll see different outcomes based on EMS. It would be ****ing stupid to simply explain in a straightforward manner what happened and they've pretty much already said that that isn't going to happen.

I just hope that we dont end up having synthesis forced on us as the "best" ending

They are probably well aware by now how people feel about Synthesis. Far too many threads have been created tearing it apart. My Shepard is going to pick Destroy anyway.

[nitefyre410]

Taboo-XX wrote...

*snip* 
I think we'll see different outcomes based on EMS. It would be ****ing stupid to simply explain in a straightforward manner what happened and they've pretty much already said that that isn't going to happen.

 

I agree it would be stupid... but right   now I have very little faith in Bioware to do the non stupid thing. I just keep going back to the no - A B. C ending qoute and  behold... 

Choice A, Choice B, Choice C 
 

Modifié par nitefyre410, 30 avril 2012 - 04:54 .

[Laurencio]

Victia wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Kunari801 wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Also, it's a hell of a lot harder to write a happy ending that isn't cheesy than to write a depressing ending. I suppose Bioware's writers just don't have that kind of talent.

Are you implying that ME1 and ME2's endings were "Cheesy"? 

When I was talking about endings, I meant series endings. Also, Drew kinda had a major role in both of those. I'm talking about Bioware's writers in a post-Drew world.

To be honest I think that the depressing/deep/sad (whatever you want to call it) ending has become the new steriotype and is very cheesy now - the last to films I watched 'the woman in black' and 'the wicker man '73' had 'dark endings-  yes i know the wicker man is an old one but i think that it shows how long this idea of a 'deep' ending meaning death and destruction has been going on for, and while i am not saying that in some cases dark isnt good, i just think that it is becoming very over used!

It almost seems that you cant go anywhere without running in to the dark ending - book, tv, film and games all  seem to be ramming it down our thoats and to me its odd because it has been proved in times of recession/ money problems in general people respond better to the 'happy ending' as they are looking for something to make them feel happier not drag them down further, even when the recession passes i think people enjoy a well thought out ending more than they do a shock one. Just MHO

It's actually a real problem in modern science fiction. If I'm not mistaken several people have noted that the depressing mood of modern science fiction is hindering the potential of future sciences. There's no Star Trek, Star Gate, Star Wars type of technological wonderment, it's all pretty doom and gloom.

http://www.smithsoni...essimistic.html

[crimzontearz]

I see people calling some users silly for wanting Casey anf Mac to resign or to have nothing to do with ME3: EC

but...uhm....they screwed up and then called their customers dumb for not understanding and claimed they felt hurt by the reaction....maybe this is not worth terminating them over but they did this consciously (and more importantly chose to hijack the ending) and apparently see no wrong in it. why should people NOT desire for them to touch any other franchise they love if they deem what they did acceptable? (also, yeah I am sorry but I do hope there are some consequences coming down on the two of them...if anything to avoid this from ever happening again)

[Taboo]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

*snip* 
I think we'll see different outcomes based on EMS. It would be ****ing stupid to simply explain in a straightforward manner what happened and they've pretty much already said that that isn't going to happen.

 

I agree it would be stupid... but right   now I have very little faith in Bioware to do the non stupid thing. I just keep going back to the no - A B. C ending qoute and  behold... 

Choice A, Choice B, Choice C 
 

The more I think about it it feels like a rush job based off of Mr. Hudson's lock myself away antics.

No peer review.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 30 avril 2012 - 04:56 .

[nitefyre410]

Laurencio wrote...

Victia wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Kunari801 wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Also, it's a hell of a lot harder to write a happy ending that isn't cheesy than to write a depressing ending. I suppose Bioware's writers just don't have that kind of talent.

Are you implying that ME1 and ME2's endings were "Cheesy"? 

When I was talking about endings, I meant series endings. Also, Drew kinda had a major role in both of those. I'm talking about Bioware's writers in a post-Drew world.

To be honest I think that the depressing/deep/sad (whatever you want to call it) ending has become the new steriotype and is very cheesy now - the last to films I watched 'the woman in black' and 'the wicker man '73' had 'dark endings-  yes i know the wicker man is an old one but i think that it shows how long this idea of a 'deep' ending meaning death and destruction has been going on for, and while i am not saying that in some cases dark isnt good, i just think that it is becoming very over used!

It almost seems that you cant go anywhere without running in to the dark ending - book, tv, film and games all  seem to be ramming it down our thoats and to me its odd because it has been proved in times of recession/ money problems in general people respond better to the 'happy ending' as they are looking for something to make them feel happier not drag them down further, even when the recession passes i think people enjoy a well thought out ending more than they do a shock one. Just MHO

It's actually a real problem in modern science fiction. If I'm not mistaken several people have noted that the depressing mood of modern science fiction is hindering the potential of future sciences. There's no Star Trek, Star Gate, Star Wars type of technological wonderment, it's all pretty doom and gloom.

http://www.smithsoni...essimistic.html

 

I remembering reading another  article about that  same issue.. and I agree they really need to stop being pessimistic about  things. Honestly I think it just a  trend that is used to drive sales because  thats what they feel the market demands. 

[Ecrulis]

*snip*

They are probably well aware by now how people feel about Synthesis. Far too many threads have been created tearing it apart. My Shepard is going to pick Destroy anyway.

Right there with you, my shep set out to destroy the reapers and she'll be damned if reaperboy is gonna talk her out of completing her mission.

[Oldbones2]

Thing is Mass Effect 3 needs an epic ending. I don't mean epic in terms of quality, but in terms of content and style.

Look at the great epics of our time (the successful ones) they follow a pretty similar formula.

They:
- Tie up as many loose ends as possible
- Answer as many lingering questions as they can
- Follow the classic rising action, climax, conclusion, denouement, standard
- We see past elements come back into play (bonus points if we haven't seen them in a while)
- The hero faces off against his antagonist in a final showdown (usually physical)

Thing is the ending of ME 3 (and thus the ME series) isn't a bad idea for an ending, its actually a good ending for a standalone game(though still not appropriate for the game Mass Effect 3 was).

It features:
- Open ending, with interpretation of events and characters
- Raises complex moral questions
- A last second twist (this was VERY poorly done though, a good twist is one that slaps you in the face the whole time, but you just don't see it until the moment its revealed. NO ONE could have guessed the Citadel was the Catalyst or that the Catalyst was an ancient AI who created the Reapers)


Now that is a decent ending for a sci fi story, particularly a stand alone techno punk like; Total Recall or The Matrix 1.


Thing is that type of ending doesn't work in a series. We're very invested in the characters and the plots, WE NEED to know what happens to them, we need to know what happens to the world around them.

Some examples of epic series ended properly.

Star Wars (original trilogy)
The Lord of the Rings (the films)
Harry Potter
Avatar the Last Airbender
Lost (not perfect, but it gets the job done)


Now other series have tried to end on the edgy speculations type ending before, recently, the Matrix series comes to mind. We all know how well that played out. And I wasn't even that invested in the characters because the preceding 2 films were so ...meh.


My point is, Epic series, can ONLY have one type of ending; Epic.

That may create limitations within the ending, but there is still a great deal of wiggle room in there.

Protagonist can still live or die, it can be happy, sad, bittersweet, you can still choose what state the fictional world will be in after the last battle. etc.

[ahandsomeshark]

I know EA owns the rights to Mass Effect now but could they even remove Casey if they wanted too (and I'm not sure I want them too), he's essentially the creator, or at least one of the major ones. I'd imagine there was some sort of accounting for that in the buy out.

[nitefyre410]

Taboo-XX wrote...

*snip* 

The more I think about it it feels like a rush job based off of Mr. Hudson lock myself away antics.

No peer review.

  

Oh  I know... thats what even more mind bloggling... no matter how much your ego  cries about it... always, always peer review. You will just be better off for in the long run..

[jeff359]

Laurencio wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Laurencio wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

If Mr. Hudson wants to treat his game like a film it will be critiqued like a film. The ending to his film is terrible.

I can do this all day.

He said that?

Oh yes. Jesus. He said that he wanted to make a more cinematic experience and that boss fights were too "video-gamey."

This is my job Mr. Hudson. You will not win.

Wow.. How could he think any video game could live up to film critique? Let alone a science fiction game, and role playing game. That's madness.

I actually agree on the boss fight scenario though. Not really sure how it would fit in. Fighting Harbinger, sure it's a fun addition but it doesn't really "end" the threat. Fighting TIM is also a bit pointless. Although I would have expected a "final mission" where you actually fought the reapers in some way either by using EMS or directing the fleet, making a final push which ended the threat. It needed a climax, if not a boss fight.

They only seem to want "constructive compliments"

[kobayashi-maru]

Some great points, I'm more film geek than gamer mostly, but agree bar Salo. I hate that movie it's basically an exercise in the extreme that pretends it's art, but has no guts at least Pink Flamingoes knew what it was and didn't fake it.

The end of ME 3 is more akin to Serbian film where even death doesn't end the atrocity. Okay it's not that bleak and at least they appear to be retconning some things while saying opposite - citadel deaths now changed to Star Trek tecnobabble about mass effect fields saving people from exploding station and the reapers.