247 réponses à ce sujet

[StrelokCH]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Oh I would take back Omega, have Aria control the Terminus and keep all the warlords in check... but then that plan took a mass effect ending to the knee... 

"Oh baby, give me the Blue Suns, come on!"

This would have been so great...

[nitefyre410]

StrelokCH wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Oh I would take back Omega, have Aria control the Terminus and keep all the warlords in check... but then that plan took a mass effect ending to the knee... 

"Oh baby, give me the Blue Suns, come on!"

This would have been so great...

 

yep it would have been.. 

along with the conversation about life and death with Ashley 
The Mission to stop a Rogue Xen on the Citadel 
The dialogue with the Geth  Prime about working together with organics and Syngery, harmony etc, 
Epic showdown with  Harbinger 
More exposition  about The Catalyst... 

Too bad all this would made Casey Hudson video game too  video gamey. 

[StrelokCH]

nitefyre410 wrote...

yep it would have been.. 

along with the conversation about life and death with Ashley 
The Mission to stop a Rogue Xen on the Citadel 
The dialogue with the Geth  Prime about working together with organics and Syngery, harmony etc, 
Epic showdown with  Harbinger 
More exposition  about The Catalyst... 

Too bad all this would made Casey Hudson video game too  video gamey. 

Especially the last two make me sad, Harbinger for gameplay and catalyst for the sake of logical plot construction.

[KillaInstinct81]

Lol. If you think Salo was bad, you should read the book it's based off of.

[crimzontearz]

it's Saló Btw......

Modifié par crimzontearz, 30 avril 2012 - 10:10 .

[RedTail F22]

Another good read. Sorry I can't contribute to the discussion as my knowledge on films and creating stories in general is not extensive enough.

But I will answer your last question. I'm curious to hear your take on why the need for blue babies and about how the ending insults the audience.

[Peranor]

Taboo-XX wrote...

**** it. Let Shepard see his LI again and I'll forgive everything.

There is no need for more sadness in the world.

New topic idea sprouting.........

This. I've said this so many times. Why are people insisting on bringing in depression and despair in to the fiction we read to get away from the sh*t we have to deal with in our real lives? There is no need for more sadness in the world. There really isn't.

[Apathy1989]

Nice post OP. I don't think the comparison is fair, but it is a strong post non-the-less.

Problems are, as you said, is a massive shift in themes and focus. From focusing on hope and characterization, to nihilism and middle-school philosophy.

There are so many sci fi shows, games and books that have don't these exact themes its not even funny, clever or remotely hip. Now if the series had set out from the beginning this way, it would have been fine (although much less financially successful), but it did not.

[humes spork]

StrelokCH wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

She was made to be that way though but she isn't perfect. She's modelled on Miss Strahovski isn't she? I don't know anything about her other than her role in Mass Effect as I've never seen the show she was a part of.

Yvonne Strahovski looks pretty normal, only Mirandas face is modelled after her. The rest is pretty much the female standard body model for the ME games combined with a really bad fashion sense.

Well, the problem isn't Strahovski. Strahovski is pretty damn cute. Miranda (or at least her modeling/texturing) doesn't look like Strahovski. Miranda looks like Strahovski ****ed Mr. Potato Head.

Modifié par humes spork, 30 avril 2012 - 10:30 .

[Taboo]

anorling wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

**** it. Let Shepard see his LI again and I'll forgive everything.

There is no need for more sadness in the world.

New topic idea sprouting.........

This. I've said this so many times. Why are people insisting on bringing in depression and despair in to the fiction we read to get away from the sh*t we have to deal with in our real lives? There is no need for more sadness in the world. There really isn't.

I have quite a bit of notes I'm going to have to shift through to make this so you'll have to wait until tomorrow. I will do it however.

Also, Redtail I'll be creating a topic about how the ending insults the audience as well in another topic. I just have.......another priority right now.

[humes spork]

anorling wrote...

This. I've said this so many times. Why are people insisting on bringing in depression and despair in to the fiction we read to get away from the sh*t we have to deal with in our real lives? There is no need for more sadness in the world. There really isn't.

Science fiction is and pretty well always has been social commentary. You can't avoid it.

[Taboo]

humes spork wrote...

anorling wrote...

This. I've said this so many times. Why are people insisting on bringing in depression and despair in to the fiction we read to get away from the sh*t we have to deal with in our real lives? There is no need for more sadness in the world. There really isn't.

Science fiction is and pretty well always has been social commentary. You can't avoid it.

Yes..........you can.

Social commentary doesn't always have to be about darkness. Satire is just as important. Lampooning things is far more effective if done correctly.

Death and Destruction is not a form of social commentary. It is a narrative technique that was literally the entire game and in the end there is nothing but a deep black pit.

Not a difficult narrative to do. Anyone can do it.

It is FAR, FAR harder to create a bittersweet ending.

There is no dignity for any of the characters, including Shepard.

I'm addressing this tomorrow.

[chemiclord]

anorling wrote...

This. I've said this so many times. Why are people insisting on bringing in depression and despair in to the fiction we read to get away from the sh*t we have to deal with in our real lives? There is no need for more sadness in the world. There really isn't.

And to that I respond... what game series were you playing?  Because it certainly wasn't Mass Effect.

People getting killed (and at times senselessly), deep depressive moments, and some hard, hard realistic consquences weren't suddenly dropped on our heads in ME3.  They've been rife through all three games.  Sorry that the themes bothered you, but you only have yourself to blame for buying a game you should have known would have some pretty dark moments.  It was hardly a secret that this game was going to feature a crapsack galaxy.

[Taboo]

chemiclord wrote...

anorling wrote...

This. I've said this so many times. Why are people insisting on bringing in depression and despair in to the fiction we read to get away from the sh*t we have to deal with in our real lives? There is no need for more sadness in the world. There really isn't.

And to that I respond... what game series were you playing?  Because it certainly wasn't Mass Effect.

People getting killed (and at times senselessly), deep depressive moments, and some hard, hard realistic consquences weren't suddenly dropped on our heads in ME3.  They've been rife through all three games.  Sorry that the themes bothered you, but you only have yourself to blame for buying a game you should have known would have some pretty dark moments.  It was hardly a secret that this game was going to feature a crapsack galaxy.

That's not what he meant. You missed that AND the opening page of this thread. It isn't about the dark themes it's about the lack of anything in the ending. There is only a pit.

[nitefyre410]

humes spork wrote...

anorling wrote...

This. I've said this so many times. Why are people insisting on bringing in depression and despair in to the fiction we read to get away from the sh*t we have to deal with in our real lives? There is no need for more sadness in the world. There really isn't.

Science fiction is and pretty well always has been social commentary. You can't avoid it.

 

Almost anything can be a socail commentary...even Rock, Paper, Scissors. The questions is how much, how its delivered and if its holds any kind of wieght because not all social commentries hold wieght. 

[nitefyre410]

chemiclord wrote...

anorling wrote...

This. I've said this so many times. Why are people insisting on bringing in depression and despair in to the fiction we read to get away from the sh*t we have to deal with in our real lives? There is no need for more sadness in the world. There really isn't.

And to that I respond... what game series were you playing?  Because it certainly wasn't Mass Effect.

People getting killed (and at times senselessly), deep depressive moments, and some hard, hard realistic consquences weren't suddenly dropped on our heads in ME3.  They've been rife through all three games.  Sorry that the themes bothered you, but you only have yourself to blame for buying a game you should have known would have some pretty dark moments.  It was hardly a secret that this game was going to feature a crapsack galaxy.

 

There is nothing crap sack  about anything in Mass Effect that  this not overcome... Mass Effect was never this "Dark Sci Fi" story people claim it to be.  

The endings have nothing do with themes of the either  nothing all at.  If anything  the endings are complete and utter mood whiplash from a story was shaping to be a "Earn your happy ending"  

No - The ending are  Mass Effect are just Casey Hudson and  Mac  Walters ego running rampant.  Hell they don't even make sense as tragedic ending. 

[Taboo]

The endings are either a rush job or a sever case of hubris either of which has quite a bit of damage to the franchise and the fanbase.

Yeah, dark things happen in the story but it isn't about death and destruction ALL the time.

There are FAR, FAR more important themes at work.

[humes spork]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Yes..........you can.

Social commentary doesn't always have to be about darkness. Satire is just as important. Lampooning things is far more effective if done correctly.

Death and Destruction is not a form of social commentary. It is a narrative technique that was literally the entire game and in the end there is nothing but a deep black pit.

Regardless of by what method a given topic is approached, that science fiction is social commentary itself is rather beyond reproach -- which is my goal. You can't avoid "the **** we deal with in our everyday lives", because that is the very core of science fiction. How that core is handled is the question.

The question you must ask yourself here, is what techniques are appropriate for the resolution of the trilogy itself. I would argue "death and destruction" are the core of the trilogy's climax and sparing that is nothing short of a complete betrayal of every theme present in the game. If after two games of establishing the scope and depth of the dramatic question, if you didn't think ME3 would go to some very dark places I'd call you a damned fool. Something I mentioned earlier was the imagery present in the prothean beacon vision, and how that from the earliest-possible point in the trilogy's narrative structure the grotesque was ingrained into the player's mind; if that hadn't come to fruition, it would have been a narrative failure of almost a higher order than failing to resolve the trilogy in a remotely positive light.

The problem is what comes after said death and destruction. In this case, all the audience gets are ambiguous glimpses of some things that could be considered positive. Needless to say, that's a bad thing and what this conversation has been about from the beginning. Even within ME3 itself there is the coupling of destruction and sacrifice with rebirth and hope: the genophage cure, the geth/quarian conflict, even the Citadel coup carries shades of this as the rescue of the Council is the final catalysis for uniting the galaxy at last. Yes, the player has the choice to resolve these questions without the "rebirth" part of the equation as well they should, but that doesn't change the fact it does in fact exist and is a consistent theme throughout the game.

Well, until Thessia anyhow; though, the revelation and abyss are so ingrained in narrative structure that it's a part of the monomyth. Qualitative analysis of whether Thessia works as the revelation and abyss, and whether Horizon and Cronos Station works as the transformation and atonement, and Priority: Earth works as the return, notwithstanding. That's doubtlessly (in my mind, at least) the intent of the writers. In short, my opinion is they don't and for that failure Priority: Earth itself feels like the revelation and abyss and the audience is flatly denied transformation, atonement and return. That is, if we're looking at Mass Effect through the lens of a monomyth, which I'll admit is a rather dodgy affair.

Modifié par humes spork, 01 mai 2012 - 12:16 .

[chemiclord]

nitefyre410 wrote...

There is nothing crap sack  about anything in Mass Effect that  this not overcome... Mass Effect was never this "Dark Sci Fi" story people claim it to be.  

The endings have nothing do with themes of the either  nothing all at.  If anything  the endings are complete and utter mood whiplash from a story was shaping to be a "Earn your happy ending"  

No - The ending are  Mass Effect are just Casey Hudson and  Mac  Walters ego running rampant.  Hell they don't even make sense as tragedic ending. 

Within ten minutes in the demo, it's clear Earth has been turned into something resembling a blackened pit.

Within the first five hours, you see the same goes for Palaven.

That's pretty much as crapsack as it gets.  No, it wasn't a typical "dark sci-fi" story, but it should have been painfully obvious that a "golden ending" really wasn't in the cards.  People who are upset about this should not have been surprised.  That's my only point.  If you didn't want to deal with some pretty damn depressing elements, this was not a game you should have bought.

That's an entirely seperate issue to the terrible execution of the ending (I refuse to acknowledge they is more than one, honestly).

[my Aim is True]

Taboo-XX wrote...

 There is no reflection or consitency in the endings. There is no relection upon critical thematic material. The characters are put aside in favor of a failed Kubrickian attempt at philosophy. This is the part where I can truly shake my head in disgust. No light in a narrative that was always about hope. No reflection upon anything but destruction. No hope.

Failed Kubrickian is a great way to put it.

Here's the thing, while you say it's nothing but death and destruction I disagree.  The Catalyst goes off on his 'more hope than you know' rambling and then Bioware goes on the recon (via twitter and PAX) all the negtive aspects of the end.  'Nobody starves to death, FTL is still possible, not everyone on the Citadel is dead'

It's so inconsistent, there is so much cognitive dissonace.  It's all just a frickin' mess.

[Taboo]

Death and destruction are part of ending regardless of the relays blowing up. Billions of people are dead and dying. The galactic economy is destroyed. Nothing will ever be the same. We literally have a narrative so dark it causes a cycle of abuse in it's current state. People won't replay the game if they can't reach a consensus.

The narrative literally hits a brick wall and stops dead in the water. There is no room for catharsis. We have literally spent an entire series preparing for this and are presented with a narrative technique that insults the audience. We are presented with over a hundred hours of information and are given no ability to exude any type of emotional response. This is narrative suicide where I come from. You cannot expect the audience to take in what you have to say and then drop them off.

Thematic material should come together as a whole via Catharsis at the end and should cause reflection. We don't have any type of reflection. We have a schizoid bull rush to the endings that presents direct contradictions to canon lore AND basic logical consistencies.

Great art is not about one thing but many. The developers forgot that at the end. They instead chose to provide us with what I would label a part of the Oneiric film logic. Unfortunately we were not given a surrealistic Franz Kafka narrative from the beginning and Bioware should not be surprised when we are frustrated with it's sudden introduction. Basic logic should have taken into account here.

I'll be talking about the characters tomorrow. People should be aware that Patrick Weekes has addressed concerns over characters in the ending on Twitter.

[nitefyre410]

chemiclord wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

There is nothing crap sack  about anything in Mass Effect that  this not overcome... Mass Effect was never this "Dark Sci Fi" story people claim it to be.  

The endings have nothing do with themes of the either  nothing all at.  If anything  the endings are complete and utter mood whiplash from a story was shaping to be a "Earn your happy ending"  

No - The ending are  Mass Effect are just Casey Hudson and  Mac  Walters ego running rampant.  Hell they don't even make sense as tragedic ending. 

Within ten minutes in the demo, it's clear Earth has been turned into something resembling a blackened pit.

Within the first five hours, you see the same goes for Palaven.

That's pretty much as crapsack as it gets.  No, it wasn't a typical "dark sci-fi" story, but it should have been painfully obvious that a "golden ending" really wasn't in the cards.  People who are upset about this should not have been surprised.  That's my only point.  If you didn't want to deal with some pretty damn depressing elements, this was not a game you should have bought.

That's an entirely seperate issue to the terrible execution of the ending (I refuse to acknowledge they is more than one, honestly).

   

I think we are confusing  "Earn Your Happy Ending" with "Golden Ending " those too different things entirely. 

Nothing  in  Mass Effect indcates that story  is going to have a complete Reset button ending at the end.  

"Earn  your happy ending" involvings going through hell and back to get  there... thus earning part. Which Mass Effect 3 was shaping up to be but the problem is the creators when to go this "True Art is Angsty" nosense as screwed up the  whole deal.   I'm not complaining about  the dark elements never did...  matter of fact there times I found them forced and contrived.  I.E   Cerberus   from strangly interesting   "Trust you but have to work with you" to..."  Mook Factory  for Multiplayer" 

But if they play this  thing straight " Earning the Happy Ending" would have had people talking more about themese of the story than  the nonsense we got.   

Honestly  I just think Bioware got caught up in the own heads. myth and legend. I

Modifié par nitefyre410, 01 mai 2012 - 12:40 .

[Taboo]

chemiclord wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

There is nothing crap sack  about anything in Mass Effect that  this not overcome... Mass Effect was never this "Dark Sci Fi" story people claim it to be.  

The endings have nothing do with themes of the either  nothing all at.  If anything  the endings are complete and utter mood whiplash from a story was shaping to be a "Earn your happy ending"  

No - The ending are  Mass Effect are just Casey Hudson and  Mac  Walters ego running rampant.  Hell they don't even make sense as tragedic ending. 

Within ten minutes in the demo, it's clear Earth has been turned into something resembling a blackened pit.

Within the first five hours, you see the same goes for Palaven.

That's pretty much as crapsack as it gets.  No, it wasn't a typical "dark sci-fi" story, but it should have been painfully obvious that a "golden ending" really wasn't in the cards.  People who are upset about this should not have been surprised.  That's my only point.  If you didn't want to deal with some pretty damn depressing elements, this was not a game you should have bought.

That's an entirely seperate issue to the terrible execution of the ending (I refuse to acknowledge they is more than one, honestly).

I'm not upset over a lack of a golden ending. I'll addressing this tomorrow. What Casey Hudson said was that at best we would have a bittersweet one. I see only bitter wihtout clarification. That's what I'm looking for. Please re-read the topic.

Furthermore I would love talk about nihilism and skepticism if people want me to. I'd be more than willing to dig up my notes on the films of Theodoros Angelopoulos, Robert Bresson and Michael Haneke.

I have quite a bit of steam left and I'm not ready to quit just yet.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 01 mai 2012 - 12:37 .

[Devil Mingy]

The fact that Bioware intended us to interpret the endings to be bittersweet, if not downright hopeful, shows a troubling amount of disconnect between what they gave us and what they wanted us to see. This is especially clear given the tweets and comments that the relays can be rebuilt in Control or rendered superfluous using Reaper corpses in Destroy, how millions on the Citadel are still alive even if it's blown up, etc. As another poster said:

Sypher_KoS said...

They offered us nothing and all we had to go on was the codex information from the previous games. They wanted speculation and when we speculate we are told that we were speculating wrong.

This is something that seems to come up in certain works that want to be "deep" but end up being stupid. The excuse for being vague and nonsensical is that we're supposed to think about them, yet are told to not think too hard about them once we point out the nonsense. In that regard, Effect 3's ending is dangerously close to the likes of Southland Tales and Free Radical's swan song, Haze... a troubling thing to say.

And they are absolutely shocked at the response to it, too. Either the ending we got was rushed and they simply can't admit it due to circumstances (completely understandable circumstances, albeit), or they are very out of touch.

Modifié par Devil Mingy, 01 mai 2012 - 12:46 .

[Peranor]

Taboo-XX wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

anorling wrote...

This. I've said this so many times. Why are people insisting on bringing in depression and despair in to the fiction we read to get away from the sh*t we have to deal with in our real lives? There is no need for more sadness in the world. There really isn't.

And to that I respond... what game series were you playing?  Because it certainly wasn't Mass Effect.

People getting killed (and at times senselessly), deep depressive moments, and some hard, hard realistic consquences weren't suddenly dropped on our heads in ME3.  They've been rife through all three games.  Sorry that the themes bothered you, but you only have yourself to blame for buying a game you should have known would have some pretty dark moments.  It was hardly a secret that this game was going to feature a crapsack galaxy.

That's not what he meant. You missed that AND the opening page of this thread. It isn't about the dark themes it's about the lack of anything in the ending. There is only a pit.

Sorry, I was afk for a while so I couldn't respond in time myself. But yes, this is what I meant.