485 réponses à ce sujet

[AkiKishi]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Ok, but Adam's personality is always Adam, is it not? I can't really change that?

Yep he's always Adam. But if you ever saw that episode of Red Dwarf with all the Ace Rimmers ? Well he's a bit like that.

It takes away all the pretence of DA2 that Hawke is your character and not one that Bioware gave you.

[Curlain]

BobSmith101 wrote...


Not really the case. The blanks are filled in as you play the game. The amnesia shtick is a dead give away. Same with KOTOR.

I disagree, PST was virtually unique in having a pre-set character that in no way limited the personality you crafted for TNO.  The more you find out about the nature of TNO and his history (or in reality histories) the more the game comfirms the player in their concept of the personality and character they crafted and RP for him.  Each version of TNO you encounter that has existed before are very different people in almost every way, so his past is no resistrict on RPing (as allot more then just amnesia is going on).

Modifié par Curlain, 03 mai 2012 - 06:09 .

[AkiKishi]

Curlain wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...


Not really the case. The blanks are filled in as you play the game. The amnesia shtick is a dead give away. Same with KOTOR.

I disagree, PST was virtually unique in having a pre-set character that in no way limited the personality you crafted for TNO.  The more you find out about the nature of TNO and his history (or in reality histories) the more the game comfirms the player in their concept of the personality and character they crafted and RP for him.  Each version of TNO you encounter that has existed before are very different people in almost every way, so his past is no resistrict on RPing (as allot more then just amnesia is going on).

Very little point crafting a personality when it will just be contradicted later. Yes PST was rather unique, but that's also what makes it bad example. Can you do PST without amnesia ? No. Can you do PST without coming back to life ? No.
PST is not something you can emulate without a very specific set of conditions.

[Sylvius the Mad]

BobSmith101 wrote...

I'd rather direct them in the direction of cinematic games I've enjoyed playing, than bemoaning the fact they no longer make a particular type of game.

A game I enjoy playing is one in which I get to craft the PC's personality myself.

I will not move on this.  This is the core feature I demand.

If the PC's personality is not my creation, then I have no interest at all in the game.

[Maria Caliban]

I wouldn't mind playing an actual God-Among-Mortals in a fantasy game. No, BG doesn't count. An Exalted RPG by BioWare would be awesome (and we'd skip the entire bisexuality making no sense argument).

[brushyourteeth]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I wouldn't mind playing an actual God-Among-Mortals in a fantasy game. No, BG doesn't count. An Exalted RPG by BioWare would be awesome (and we'd skip the entire bisexuality making no sense argument).

I like this.

I still really wish there was a way we could go back in time and play the game as Andraste. Of course that will never happen for a few obvious reasons, but I think it could be incredibly interesting.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

I'd rather direct them in the direction of cinematic games I've enjoyed playing, than bemoaning the fact they no longer make a particular type of game.

A game I enjoy playing is one in which I get to craft the PC's personality myself.

I will not move on this.  This is the core feature I demand.

If the PC's personality is not my creation, then I have no interest at all in the game.

They still want us to create our character but they also want to maintain their cinematic approach. This is a real headache and a big mess. I really can't think of anything better because there is no
cinematic player created character to compare with other than their own Mass Effect. 

[Sacred_Fantasy]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

They still want us to create our character but they also want to maintain their cinematic approach. This is a real headache and a big mess. I really can't think of anything better because there is no
cinematic player created character to compare with other than their own Mass Effect. 

Alpha Protocol.

Alpha protocol doesn't has character creation.  Michael Thorton is fixed protagonist .

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 03 mai 2012 - 06:51 .

[Maria Caliban]

BioWare has always been an oddity when it comes to RPG design.

[IntoTheDarkness]

I'm going to reply again after reading through comments, but I 100% agree with your title for now. (don't really agree with your warden example. he is a god hero too...)

All Bioware protagonists are god-like beings and flawless too which is a quality that even the deities don't have. Shepard was devoid of any weakness which made him like a robot in ME trilogy.

Take a loook at famous manga 'Berserk.' or any other well-made stories. I feel much more empathy to those humane characters. None of Bioware protagonists feel realistic. As consequences there are no tention in your choices because your choices are that of gods in the game world and no unexpected results occur, ever.

If there are options either to save a tribe A or B, your choices will 100% save the tribe you chose to save, because as I said, your choices are absolute in games since you are a god.

I HATE THIS WHOLEHEARTEDLY.

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 03 mai 2012 - 07:28 .

[Vaeliorin]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I wouldn't mind playing an actual God-Among-Mortals in a fantasy game. No, BG doesn't count. An Exalted RPG by BioWare would be awesome (and we'd skip the entire bisexuality making no sense argument).

I'd love to see an Exalted game. There was one in the works at one point (all I ever saw of it was a few screenshots) but it got cancelled. It was an action game, though, so I wasn't too disapointed. Funny thing is, the DA2 animations would actually be kind of fitting in an Exalted game.

Anyway, as to the topic, I have to say I much prefer normal guy in the wrong place at the wrong time sort of characters.

[Ghidorah14]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

If there are options either to save a tribe A or B, your choices will 100% save the tribe you chose to save, because as I said, your choices are absolute in games since you are a god.

I HATE THIS WHOLEHEARTEDLY.

So you're saying you hate it when BioWare respects your in-game choices?

???

[Tirigon]

John Epler wrote...


Sci-fi/contemporary have it a lot easier.

'Why don't you just kill them?'

'They're talking with you over a loudspeaker, and the room you're in is bulletproof/rapidly filling with gas.'

'Well played.'

You can have that in the world of Dragon Age as well:

"Why dont we just kill them?"

They have a bloodmage putting paralysis on you. You are protected by your mother's amulet so he cant dominate you completely but it kinda weakens you enough to make a fight impossible."

"Well played."

[Fast Jimmy]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Curlain wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...


Not really the case. The blanks are filled in as you play the game. The amnesia shtick is a dead give away. Same with KOTOR.

I disagree, PST was virtually unique in having a pre-set character that in no way limited the personality you crafted for TNO.  The more you find out about the nature of TNO and his history (or in reality histories) the more the game comfirms the player in their concept of the personality and character they crafted and RP for him.  Each version of TNO you encounter that has existed before are very different people in almost every way, so his past is no resistrict on RPing (as allot more then just amnesia is going on).

Very little point crafting a personality when it will just be contradicted later. Yes PST was rather unique, but that's also what makes it bad example. Can you do PST without amnesia ? No. Can you do PST without coming back to life ? No.
PST is not something you can emulate without a very specific set of conditions.

Agreed. The amnesia of TNO makes him a blank slate, more of a blank slate than most standard blank slate "random hero" RPGs, even. 

HIs past lives do come into play, but they are plot devices, not pieces of your personality that take over and have opinions. In essense, the choices and story of TNO before his amnesia is almost a separate NPC, who's decisions and choices influence the story, but not the character we are playing.

[nightscrawl]

the_one_54321 wrote...

I'm going to reference back to a very old thread about the merging of cinematic presentation and the typical gameplay mechanics. I think that maintaining fluid consistency between each "mode" of presentation could go a long way toward keeping cinematic and freedom available.

Awesome thread that I somehow missed originally, thanks.

BobSmith101 wrote...

What do you mean by freedom?

If you browse that thread the_one linked, they are talking mainly about how the cinematic aspect of the game works, obvious mode switching, fixed cameras, and other such things that take control away from the player, in a purely mechanical sense.

I can go back to the dialogue as it was in Neverwinter Nights where you have this window open with the NPC and you can literally walk away from the conversation, forcibly ending it. Sometimes, depending on the NPC, they have some AI that tells them you have done this and they respond in an offended manner the next time you initiate conversation, but usually not. As a player, you have complete control of your actions the entire time.

I happen to like the cinematic presentation of the dialogue as it is in DAO and DA2, but I do wish that it wasn't such a hard transition into "OK we have to stop and talk now" type of mode switching. There are some occasions where you are walking along and control is jerked away from you to start a fixed-camera dialogue scene. This is rather jarring...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I wouldn't mind playing an actual God-Among-Mortals in a fantasy game. No, BG doesn't count. An Exalted RPG by BioWare would be awesome (and we'd skip the entire bisexuality making no sense argument).

I like this.

I still really wish there was a way we could go back in time and play the game as Andraste. Of course that will never happen for a few obvious reasons, but I think it could be incredibly interesting.

I don't see us playing as Andraste or Maferath, or any significant person in that manner, no. However, I don't see why a sort of historical-style DLC where we are either on the side of the Tevinter or Her conquering army would be out of the question. Perhaps in the same vein as The Darkspawn Chronicles DLC for DAO. We know how the fight ultimately ends, but there's no reason we can't participate in it as a player.


Btw, thanks to those who answered my zots question... lol.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 04 mai 2012 - 08:13 .

[AkiKishi]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

They still want us to create our character but they also want to maintain their cinematic approach. This is a real headache and a big mess. I really can't think of anything better because there is no
cinematic player created character to compare with other than their own Mass Effect. 

I can give you an example of how not to do it . White Knight Chronicles. Decent enough game, but if you think the Warden sticks out like a sore thumb because he's mute, you aint seen nothing. Your PC in WKC is effectively nothing more than combat support while the NPC cast drive the story.

On your Alpha Protocol example. You can customise Thorntons appearence, the only real difference is he has a first name. Besides that you have way more freedom over the story and way more choice and consequence than in any Bioware game.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

They still want us to create our character but they also want to maintain their cinematic approach. This is a real headache and a big mess. I really can't think of anything better because there is no
cinematic player created character to compare with other than their own Mass Effect. 

I can give you an example of how not to do it . White Knight Chronicles. Decent enough game, but if you think the Warden sticks out like a sore thumb because he's mute, you aint seen nothing. Your PC in WKC is effectively nothing more than combat support while the NPC cast drive the story.

That's even more passive than Hawke.  I wouldn't want anything like that in my game. 

BobSmith101 wrote...

On your Alpha Protocol example. You can customise Thorntons appearence, the only real difference is he has a first name. Besides that you have way more freedom over the story and way more choice and consequence than in any Bioware game.

I didn't complete my Alpha Protocol because my mouse couldn't  synchronize properly with console interface, making it painful to deactivate cameras, containers etc..  It made worst that I couldn't target fast enough during gun fight. It felt like using  a joystick. And I'm terrible with joystick. So I never get out of starting area. 

But if I could change PC's appearance plus choice and consequence and the freedom over the story , then I'm fine with it. I could always use course of  my actions to roleplay my character personality.

I guess I should reinstall my alpha protocol and try again. Thanks BobSmith101.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 04 mai 2012 - 10:47 .

[AkiKishi]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

I didn't complete my Alpha Protocol because of my mouse couldn't  synchronize properly with console interface, making it painful to deactivate cameras, containers etc..  It made worst that I couldn't target fast enough during gun fight. It felt like using  a joystick. And I'm terrible with joystick. So I never get out of starting area. 

But if I could change PC's appearance plus choice and consequence and the freedom over the story , then I'm fine with it. I could always use course of  my actions to roleplay my character personality.

I guess I should reinstall my alpha protocol and try again. Thanks BobSmith101.

A truly excellent game built around some of the most sucky controls and clunky mechanics you are every likely to encounter.....

That and one particular boss fight are the only real negatives, though they are HUGE negatives, no denying.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 04 mai 2012 - 10:49 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Very little point crafting a personality when it will just be contradicted later.

I agree, which is why the game shouldn't contradict the player's design.

Neither PST nor KotOR did that.   DAO had that one big restriction (the PC had to accept being a Warden), but otherwise was pretty open.

DA2 and all of the ME games contradict the player constantly.  As such, there is liltte point in crafting a personality in those games, and that makes them games I don't enjoy playing.

[AkiKishi]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Very little point crafting a personality when it will just be contradicted later.

I agree, which is why the game shouldn't contradict the player's design.

Neither PST nor KotOR did that.   DAO had that one big restriction (the PC had to accept being a Warden), but otherwise was pretty open.

DA2 and all of the ME games contradict the player constantly.  As such, there is liltte point in crafting a personality in those games, and that makes them games I don't enjoy playing.

Well when I started playing PST my design was not for some dude who had been an evil SOB across many lives. That was never part of my character concept, that was however forced on me by the game.
Same in KOTOR I never designed a character to be Darth Revan without a memory. The game forced that on me.

Because both ME and DA2 are games with pre-generated characters, they just lie about it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Well when I started playing PST my design was not for some dude who had been an evil SOB across many lives. That was never part of my character concept, that was however forced on me by the game.
Same in KOTOR I never designed a character to be Darth Revan without a memory. The game forced that on me.

That has nothing to do with personality.  We're talking about personality.  What sort of person was TNO?  That was left entirely to you to determine.

The same with KotOR.  KotOR didn't even use the amnesia trick, so you could construct a detailed backstory for your character.  Yes, it would turn out not to be true, but that doesn't mean it can't be the basis for your character's personality.

ME and DA2 do not allow the player to construct the PC's personality.  PST and KotOR do.  That's the relevant difference.

Because both ME and DA2 are games with pre-generated characters, they just lie about it.

I agree.  And I want BioWare to stop doing that.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 04 mai 2012 - 05:52 .

[AkiKishi]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Well when I started playing PST my design was not for some dude who had been an evil SOB across many lives. That was never part of my character concept, that was however forced on me by the game.
Same in KOTOR I never designed a character to be Darth Revan without a memory. The game forced that on me.

That has nothing to do with personality.  We're talking about personality.  What sort of person was TNO?  That was left entirely to you to determine.

The same with KotOR.  KotOR didn't even use the amnesia trick, so you could construct a detailed backstory for your character.  Yes, it would turn out not to be true, but that doesn't mean it can't be the basis for your character's personality.

ME and DA2 do not allow the player to construct the PC's personality.  PST and KotOR do.  That's the relevant difference.

Because both ME and DA2 are games with pre-generated characters, they just lie about it.

I agree.  And I want BioWare to stop doing that.

That has everything to do with personality, just because you had amnesia does not mean you other life did not happen. It's part of you as a person and you have to come to terms with it. That's a pretty big curveball.

Anyway unless you can somehow come up with a way to do that without the amnesia bit, it's not relevent.

I'm sure at some point they will do the pre-gen character, likely a choice of a male or a female like Harvest Moon.

[Sylvius the Mad]

BobSmith101 wrote...

That has everything to do with personality, just because you had amnesia does not mean you other life did not happen. It's part of you as a person and you have to come to terms with it. That's a pretty big curveball.

That the other life happened doesn't make it relevant.  Why should I care if someone else who happened to live in my head did some things I might not have done?

I'm sure at some point they will do the pre-gen character, likely a choice of a male or a female like Harvest Moon.

I wil absolutely not play that game.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 04 mai 2012 - 08:58 .