485 réponses à ce sujet

[Curlain]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Well when I started playing PST my design was not for some dude who had been an evil SOB across many lives. That was never part of my character concept, that was however forced on me by the game.
Same in KOTOR I never designed a character to be Darth Revan without a memory. The game forced that on me.

Because both ME and DA2 are games with pre-generated characters, they just lie about it.

But your TNO wasn't.  It isn't just amensia, the other lives of TNO were literially that, other lives.  Each was completely different from each other, from the mysterious first to all following lives, each time he 'died' TNO had became essentialy a new person.  He had lives where he had been a paragon of justice etc just as he had some where he was an SOB, some where he was a genius, others he was an fool or idiot, some where he was bat-crazy insane.  He's been a warrior, rogue, mage, with completely different principles, values and personality in each life.  Thus what you find out about the many pasts of TNO in no way effected who you had crafted him to be in your game (it actually comfirmed your RP and concept and gave you full freedom in this), and it was only thanks to a previous insane TNO just prior to game starting that TNO ingame no longer losses who is is when he dies anymore.

Modifié par Curlain, 04 mai 2012 - 08:25 .

[AkiKishi]

Curlain wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Well when I started playing PST my design was not for some dude who had been an evil SOB across many lives. That was never part of my character concept, that was however forced on me by the game.
Same in KOTOR I never designed a character to be Darth Revan without a memory. The game forced that on me.

Because both ME and DA2 are games with pre-generated characters, they just lie about it.

But your TNO wasn't.  It isn't just amensia, the other lives of TNO were literially that, other lives.  Each was completely different from each other, from the mysterious first to all following lives, each time he 'died' TNO had became essentialy a new person.  He had lives where he had been a paragon of justice etc just as he had some where he was an SOB, some where he was a genius, others he was an fool or idiot, some where he was bat-crazy insane.  He's been a warrior, rogue, mage, with completely different principles, values and personality in each life.  Thus what you find out about the many pasts of TNO in no way effected who you had crafted him to be in your game (it actually comfirmed your RP and concept and gave you full freedom in this), and it was only thanks to a previous insane TNO just prior to game starting that TNO ingame no longer losses who is is when he dies anymore.

They are still your actions, you were responsible for screwing over your companions in various ways. The current you has to atone for that, or not. But it's still something that you had no control over being forced on you because of the nature of the story.

[Sylvius the Mad]

BobSmith101 wrote...

They are still your actions,

No.  They're actions.  I see no reason to perceive them as mine.

you were responsible for screwing over your companions in various ways.

Not necessarily.  It's up to you to decide whether that's important to your iteration of TNO.

The current you has to atone for that, or not. But it's still something that you had no control over being forced on you because of the nature of the story.

But it doesn't change who you are.  It's just like finding out that your best friend is a war criminal.  Yes, you can react to that information, and you had no control over it, but it doesn't change who you are as a person.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 04 mai 2012 - 09:03 .

[Curlain]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

They are still your actions,

No.  They're actions.  I see no reason to perceive them as mine.

you were responsible for screwing over your companions in various ways.

Not necessarily.  It's up to you to decide whether that's important to your iteration of TNO.

The current you has to atone for that, or not. But it's still something that you had no control over being forced on you because of the nature of the story.

But it doesn't change who you are.  It's just like finding out that your best friend is a war criminal.  Yes, you can react to that information, and you had no control over it, but it doesn't change who you are as a person.

Indeed, in fact I'd like to take that analogy as it relates to TNO a bit further and say it would be like finding out an ancestor had been a war criminal etc.  What responsiblity a current TNO feels to actions  taken by previous lives and versions he had no control over (and by definition wasn't even in existence then) is up to the character your develop and RP.

Modifié par Curlain, 04 mai 2012 - 09:26 .

[the_one_54321]

You can't hold someone responsible for actions that were done while out of his mind. This being the literal application of amnesia. You have a separate state of mind, much in the way that having multiple personalities might be considered, except that the transition is permanent.

[AkiKishi]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

They are still your actions,

No.  They're actions.  I see no reason to perceive them as mine.

you were responsible for screwing over your companions in various ways.

Not necessarily.  It's up to you to decide whether that's important to your iteration of TNO.

The current you has to atone for that, or not. But it's still something that you had no control over being forced on you because of the nature of the story.

But it doesn't change who you are.  It's just like finding out that your best friend is a war criminal.  Yes, you can react to that information, and you had no control over it, but it doesn't change who you are as a person.

No it's like finding out you yourself are the war criminal. Think about whether that would change you.

I have no interest in playing a fake personality. I'd rather play a pre-generated one if those are the choices.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 04 mai 2012 - 09:54 .

[the_one_54321]

That person no longer exists. Unless you decide to become that person once again.

[Sylvius the Mad]

BobSmith101 wrote...

No it's like finding out you yourself are the war criminal. Think about whether that would change you.

At most you'd be finding out that you used to be a war criminal.  You know whether you're the sort of person who could do those things.  And since you have no memory of having done so, you're not still the same person now.

I have no interest in playing a fake personality. I'd rather play a pre-generated one if those are the choices.

I have yet to see a game with a pre-generated character let me play it at all.  If they design the personality for us, then they need to give us an exhaustive description of that personality up front so we can have some idea what we're doing.

They haven't done that, so they're not letting us play the personality they've designed.  Our only option, therefore, is to design our own.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 04 mai 2012 - 10:03 .

[AkiKishi]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

No it's like finding out you yourself are the war criminal. Think about whether that would change you.

At most you'd be finding out that you used to be a war criminal.  You know whether you're the sort of person who could do those things.  And since you have no memory of having done so, you're not still the same person now.

I have no interest in playing a fake personality. I'd rather play a pre-generated one if those are the choices.

I have yet to see a game with a pre-generated character let me play it at all.  If they design the personality for us, then they need to give us an exhaustive description of tha personality up front so we can have some idea what we're doing.

They haven't done that, so they're not letting us play the personality they've designed.  Our only option, therefore, is to design our own.

If you did not have a mental break that is.
This whole debate is pointless anyway. As I said before the requirements are too specific to be applied generally.

It's really not that complicated there is no wrong answer with pre-gen character.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 04 mai 2012 - 10:07 .

[Curlain]

BobSmith101 wrote...


No it's like finding out you yourself are the war criminal. Think about whether that would change you.

I have no interest in playing a fake personality. I'd rather play a pre-generated one if those are the choices.

It's not a fake personality, each life TNO lived was a full personality and life it's his own right.  What you seem to be doing is taking one life out of the countless ones that have existed (many of which you find out about ingame, not to mention your current TNO persona), which were often extremely different from each other, and deciding that the one that was a war criminal is somehow the 'true' personality.

While is is a valid reaction your PC could decide to make, that's their personal reaction.  But is doesn't make it objectively the case, that life of the TNO was one among countless different lives, all as valid, real and different as the others.  One he was a war criminal, in another there was a saint.  Both were true, and the current life is a new life again.

It provides situations for character to react to and define who he is, not be bound by that past life.  Otherwise if you take this path it it's full conclusion, you must find out every life TNO ever lived, and somehow attempt to incoperate them all into yourself, even when they are multually exclusive, so you'll need to combine the idiot TNO with a life as a genius, the saint with the insane killer, and the manipulative evil life etc and so forth.  It's both impossible, and unncessary, each life was valid, including the current one.

Modifié par Curlain, 04 mai 2012 - 10:48 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

BobSmith101 wrote...

It's really not that complicated there is no wrong answer with pre-gen character.

But then how do you choose among the options?  Why is the character doing what he's doing?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Curlain wrote...

It's not a fake personality, each life TNO lived was a full personality and life it's his own right.  What you seem to be doing is taking one life out of the countless ones that have existed (many of which you find out about ingame, not to mention your current TNO persona), which were often extremely different from each other, and deciding that the one that was a war criminal is somehow the 'true' personality.

While is is a valid reaction your PC could decide to make, that's their personal reaction.  But is doesn't make it objectively the case, that life of the TNO was one among countless different lives, all as valid, real and different as the others.  One he was a war criminal, in another there was a saint.  Both were true, and the current life is a new life again.

I don't think BobSmith is in-character when he's making these decisions.  That would explain the disconnect.

He's trying to play a game.  We're trying to play a character.

[the_one_54321]

I'm trying to do both.

[Cigne]

Curlain wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...


No it's like finding out you yourself are the war criminal. Think about whether that would change you.

I have no interest in playing a fake personality. I'd rather play a pre-generated one if those are the choices.

It's not a fake personality, each life TNO lived was a full personality and life it's his own right.  What you seem to be doing is taking one life out of the countless ones that have existed (many of which you find out about ingame, not to mention your current TNO persona), which were often extremely different from each other, and deciding that the one that was a war criminal is somehow the 'true' personality.

While is is a valid reaction your PC could decide to make, that's their personal reaction.  But is doesn't make it objectively the case, that life of the TNO was one among countless different lives, all as valid, real and different as the others.  One he was a war criminal, in another there was a saint.  Both were true, and the current life is a new life again.

It provides situations for character to react to and define who he is, not be bound by that past life.  Otherwise if you take this path it it's full conclusion, you must find out every life TNO ever lived, and somehow attempt to incoperate them all into yourself, even when they are multually exclusive, so you'll need to combine the idiot TNO with a life as a genius, the saint with the insane killer, and the manipulative evil life etc and so forth.  It's both impossible, and unncessary, each life was valid, including the current one.

To me that contradicts the idea of self--if it's not you in that past life, what connection is there? Those past lives might as well be 'really' someone else; unique individuals from say, a history book.

But I haven't played PST, so I may be missing some context.

[Blastback]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I wouldn't mind playing an actual God-Among-Mortals in a fantasy game. No, BG doesn't count. An Exalted RPG by BioWare would be awesome (and we'd skip the entire bisexuality making no sense argument).

If Beamdog actully were to make Baldur's Gate 3, I'd like to see the Bhaalspawn winding up interacting with the dieties of the forgotten relams. 

[Maria Caliban]

Cigne wrote...

To me that contradicts the idea of self--if it's not you in that past life, what connection is there? Those past lives might as well be 'really' someone else; unique individuals from say, a history book.

But I haven't played PST, so I may be missing some context.

The connection is that it's the same body and soul. The Nameless One in Planescape: Torment is immortal. If you kill him, he springs right back to life, but he loses his memories over repeated deaths.

In fact, part of the game is remembering who you were.

[Cigne]

Ah. Thanks, Maria.

Wait, does that mean the PC's dying is part of the gameplay?

[AkiKishi]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

He's trying to play a game.  We're trying to play a character.

You can't do one without the other. The character is the vehicle through the game.

Asking why a pre-generated character does something is like asking why you do something. Why do you do the things you do ? Do you know why ? 

All characters are reflections of the people who play them. Or their actions are dictated by the players desire to see game content.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 05 mai 2012 - 02:22 .

[the_one_54321]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
He's trying to play a game.  We're trying to play a character.

You can't do one without the other. The character is the vehicle through the game.

If the "game" is not goal oriented (for example, DA:O has the clearly established goal of defeating the blight) then it's not actualy a game, and rather an activity. Skyrim can fit this example quite well, where you can completely ignore the main storyline. In these instances you can play a character and not play the game.

[AkiKishi]

the_one_54321 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
He's trying to play a game.  We're trying to play a character.

You can't do one without the other. The character is the vehicle through the game.

If the "game" is not goal oriented (for example, DA:O has the clearly established goal of defeating the blight) then it's not actualy a game, and rather an activity. Skyrim can fit this example quite well, where you can completely ignore the main storyline. In these instances you can play a character and not play the game.

Everything is goal oriented even if it's not explictly stated, it's something you have set. Explore this, kill this, ,create this kind of character, create that kind of character.

Even traveling to that castle in the distance just because it looks interesting.

[ChaosAgentLoki]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The connection is that it's the same body and soul. The Nameless One in Planescape: Torment is immortal. If you kill him, he springs right back to life, but he loses his memories over repeated deaths.

In fact, part of the game is remembering who you were.

Wow, that makes Planescape sound like a ton of fun! The protagonist reminds me of my personal favorite RPG protagonist (Kaim Argonar from Lost Odyssey).

Anyways, onto the main topic. I find that having such a powerful hero can be fun, but at the same time there was always a reason I found DA2 and Hawke more appealing (only until I played it, not a bad game, but definitely not what I was hoping for...) since s/he comes across more as a regular person who is thrown into this situation. It truly relies on a balance though. As long as the entirety of the story and the rest of the game (companions, etc.) are great, then I have no issue with whatever type of hero is chosen. A regular person or a god amongst mortals, to me, a good game outweighs whichever style they choose to follow. 

[the_one_54321]

Bobsmith, that's your frame of mind. It's my frame of mind too. But not everyone has to play with the same frame of mind. Hence Sylvius' comment in playing a game or playing a character.

[Curlain]

BobSmith101 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
He's trying to play a game.  We're trying to play a character.

You can't do one without the other. The character is the vehicle through the game.

If the "game" is not goal oriented (for example, DA:O has the clearly established goal of defeating the blight) then it's not actualy a game, and rather an activity. Skyrim can fit this example quite well, where you can completely ignore the main storyline. In these instances you can play a character and not play the game.

Everything is goal oriented even if it's not explictly stated, it's something you have set. Explore this, kill this, ,create this kind of character, create that kind of character.

Even traveling to that castle in the distance just because it looks interesting.

I play a role-playing game to role play a character.  If I have a goal in the game it's that, anything else comes out of the character's motivations.  In DA:O the character will be a Grey Warden who by chance or fate happens to end up the key figure in a major event in Thedas.  My goal is to RP who that character can be, and their experiences and development through the event, to live their personal story.  Anything else, whether somethiing is explored, killed, or travelling to a castle in the distance is based on my character's motivations, values, whims etc.  If the castle is exlpored it might be because my character thinks it looks interesting, or is obsessed with fortification design and study, or might decide it's good place to camp, or they want to get a better view of the surrounding landscape.

Basically, whatever happens is based on the desires, purposes, and objectives of my character, and that's it.  I play RPGs to role play (in first person assuming and acting a character terms)

[rapscallioness]

I loved Hawke. And honestly I loved having a sarcastic option. I hope they continue that. When Hawke told that one Dalish, "Maker, where did my self-righteousness and pointy ears go?" I Lol'd! Because that's exactly what I was thinking. It's nice to have an option that isn't either diplomatically humbling yourself, or putting a knife to their throats.

And really I was about fed up with those elitist Dalish that thought they were better than everybody. I still saved their clan. Even though my Hawke was an ordinary person with amazing reload saved game abilities, she still cared enough to go back and save their self-righteous Dalish hides.

I thought the sarcastic opiton was a refreshing. I don't run in to alot of games with that....maybe I'm missing out?

As far as the whole martyrdom thing, I get tired of that anyway. The whole rope me to a cross so that I may die for your sins...bah.

I do prefer the option of having an ordinary character in extraordinary circumstances that--due primarily to their amazing reload abilities--manages to save the day, get their people out alive, and live to tell the story over a round, or two, in the tavern.

I like to role play, too. And sometimes that's the way I'd like to play my character. I'd appreciate not always being railroaded into some grand self-sacrifice and forced tragedy.

[Rabid Rooster]

1st of all who wants to play a "regular" guy or gal in a fantasy game?

Let me explain something i had to explain to some new guys in my pen and paper D&D game.

Player Characters are the olypmic superstars of there time and world. Thats what makes them more than human, better than the aveage joe farmer/village/solider.

or I can put it like i explained something to a friend about the moive Dusk Till Dawn when he asked where the hell did all those badasses in the bar come from.

I explained it in rpg terms lol. In any givening game world in any given tarven there is going be atleast one maybe two high level NPCs or PCs.