485 réponses à ce sujet

[Xewaka]

Alternatively, depending on the game concept, we could have the character start at levels higher than 1, so the character already has a compentence through experience ingrained. Leveling from 20 to 40 seems less extreme than 1 to 20, even if the number of levels shifted is the same.
It's a matter of playing with perceptions.

[AkiKishi]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

Well, not in game mechanics terms perhaps.  But its extremely rare that the story actually justifies the shift from lvl 1 to lvl 30. 

Which is why the best roleplaying games don't do that in a short period (or at all).

While I think DAO was a terrific game, I think it would have been better if the Warden rose from level 1 to level 8, rather than to level 25.

Levels are completely meaningless outside of their own game world. Seems to me your a bit fixated on how D&D did it.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 08 mai 2012 - 04:15 .

[wsandista]

Xewaka wrote...

Alternatively, depending on the game concept, we could have the character start at levels higher than 1, so the character already has a compentence through experience ingrained. Leveling from 20 to 40 seems less extreme than 1 to 20, even if the number of levels shifted is the same.
It's a matter of playing with perceptions.

Well maybe this is just me with D&D, but level 20 is someone who can take on powerful dragons and demons with a competent party. Level 40 is almost demi-god level. That is a huge jump.

[AkiKishi]

wsandista wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

Alternatively, depending on the game concept, we could have the character start at levels higher than 1, so the character already has a compentence through experience ingrained. Leveling from 20 to 40 seems less extreme than 1 to 20, even if the number of levels shifted is the same.
It's a matter of playing with perceptions.

Well maybe this is just me with D&D, but level 20 is someone who can take on powerful dragons and demons with a competent party. Level 40 is almost demi-god level. That is a huge jump.

It's the pre-conception of D&D. Levels in DA don't make that much difference, it's mostly down to having more skills (partly this is because of scaling).
Fire Emblem runs in 3 tiers from 20/20/20. Disgaea tops out at 9999, so being level 20 in Disgaea is a lot less meaningful than being level 20 in D&D.

[Xewaka]

BobSmith101 wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
Alternatively, depending on the game concept, we could have the character start at levels higher than 1, so the character already has a compentence through experience ingrained. Leveling from 20 to 40 seems less extreme than 1 to 20, even if the number of levels shifted is the same.
It's a matter of playing with perceptions.

Well maybe this is just me with D&D, but level 20 is someone who can take on powerful dragons and demons with a competent party. Level 40 is almost demi-god level. That is a huge jump.

It's the pre-conception of D&D. Levels in DA don't make that much difference, it's mostly down to having more skills (partly this is because of scaling).
Fire Emblem runs in 3 tiers from 20/20/20. Disgaea tops out at 9999, so being level 20 in Disgaea is a lot less meaningful than being level 20 in D&D.

Several of the RPGs I play don't bother with level progression anyway, instead using XP as currency to buy upgrades. But people seem to have the need of a level showing all the time.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Xewaka wrote...

Alternatively, depending on the game concept, we could have the character start at levels higher than 1, so the character already has a compentence through experience ingrained.

While that would also give us a shallower power curve, we would then miss out on low-level gameplay, and we wouldn't be able to start with an unremarkable peasant.

A high-level character is already remarkable just by being high-level.  Isn't the point of this thread to get us PCs who are not remarkable until we make them so?

[Xewaka]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
While that would also give us a shallower power curve, we would then miss out on low-level gameplay, and we wouldn't be able to start with an unremarkable peasant.
A high-level character is already remarkable just by being high-level.  Isn't the point of this thread to get us PCs who are not remarkable until we make them so?

It depends entirely on the campaign background. If the character is a lowly started peasant, then level 1 makes sense. If the character is, say, a Seeker, or any other kind of "specialist force", then an advanced start is a better option.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Xewaka wrote...

It depends entirely on the campaign background. If the character is a lowly started peasant, then level 1 makes sense. If the character is, say, a Seeker, or any other kind of "specialist force", then an advanced start is a better option.

I agree that a level 1 Seeker would make no sense at all..

As long as the PC began as an otherwise unremarkable Seeker, I wouldn't have a strong objection.

But I'd still miss the low-level gameplay.  I want one genlock (or orc, or whatever) to be a credible threat.  Your character typically gains two things as he levels up: he gains power, and he gains versatility.  A level 1 character should have neither of those.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 08 mai 2012 - 08:07 .

[Realmzmaster]

A low level character allows newbies to the genre to learn the system. A character that begins at level 8 would give the newbie a bunch of points to allocate or force them to use a pre-generated character to learn the system.

The developer could include a separate section that allows the newbie to learn the system by starting as a peasant and work to become a level 8 seeker. Veterans of cRPGs could start as a level 8 seeker with either point and skill allocation or pre-generated character.

[Blastback]

PinkShoes wrote...

John Epler wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Filament wrote...

Your impression of the game is still incredibly skewed, apparently, if you think Hawke "conquers" the city. The champion title does not mean much at all.

When it should, considering the "Champion" is invited to parties and his/her opinion is apparently influential in conflicts.

What's the point of giving it the air of importance if the game is going to fall short on delivering how it is important? I can't build political connections or undermine the authority of the person I see as the true threat to Kirkwall.

I can't do much of anything with a role that's chalked up to being important by citizens but is displayed in-game as being nothing more then a figurehead title.

It -is- important to the citizens, and likely to the minor nobles, because Hawke liberated the city. And, while the major movers and shakers might take issue with someone being catapulted to a position with some political clout, they can't really speak out against it without it causing a lot of ill feelings among the citizenry. I always saw it as putting Hawke in a position where he can't be ignored, and where he has enough influence (due to his actions in Act Two) that having him support one side over the other could be seen as beneficial insofar as popular opinion is concerned.

It's like in any democracy that has multiple parties - sure, that party that holds six seats may be tiny, but if they have the ability to sway the vote then the bigger parties are going to be treating them with a reverence and a respect far in excess of the importance that their size would suggest.

You know the problem of what you just said is? You had to tell us that. We didn't feel it ingame.

Yeah, that's part of what's so damn unfun about DA2 for me.  It's about what I the player get to experiance.  And I didn't get to experiance Hawke being truely important or infuluential.  I was just told s/he was.  That's not fun. 

Ultimatley, Hawke may have been truely signifigant in the lives of the people of Kirkwall and Thedas in general.  But I didn't experiance that.

[Vormaerin]

wsandista wrote...

A year of constantly fighting darkspawn would make the PC much more skilled and battle-hardened. DAO took place over the course of a year. It seems logical to me that the PC would gain quite a bit of skill during that time period, especially since in every origin it is heavily implied(if not explicitly stated) that the PC is extremely skilled and has huge potential.

A year of battle experience is nice and all, but it doesn't produce the dramatic power changes that the leveling system does in any game without mobs being leveled to match.   And the problem with that mechanic, which is really evident in Skyrim, is that its often easier to do things at low level than at high level.  Which sort of defeats the purpose of leveling.

[Vormaerin]

Realmzmaster wrote...

A low level character allows newbies to the genre to learn the system. A character that begins at level 8 would give the newbie a bunch of points to allocate or force them to use a pre-generated character to learn the system.

The developer could include a separate section that allows the newbie to learn the system by starting as a peasant and work to become a level 8 seeker. Veterans of cRPGs could start as a level 8 seeker with either point and skill allocation or pre-generated character.

The problem is not with leveling.  The problem is if the character's power in the world changes.   In ME3 you can start at low level or import an existing high level character.   It doesn't matter, because the only thing that changes is the stats on the bad guys.

Lvl 30 Shepard and lvl 10 Shepard are functionally equal in power relative to the world. 

The story needs to set the power of the character:  If he's a random guy, he better not be soloing dragons and archdemons a few months later without some kind of major story elements involved in establishing that.

If he's a bad ass commando, he better not start out struggling with the local rats unless the local rats are some kind of super mutant version.

[wsandista]

Vormaerin wrote...

A year of battle experience is nice and all, but it doesn't produce the dramatic power changes that the leveling system does in any game without mobs being leveled to match.

That is why DAO should have taken place over three years. More realistic considering the geography and the fact that the party did not use horses. Three years would be enough time for a very talented individual to gain almost epic levels of skill, especially since almost everyday that skill is being tested.

 

And the problem with that mechanic, which is really evident in Skyrim, is that its often easier to do things at low level than at high level.  Which sort of defeats the purpose of leveling.

You just illustrated the problem of level-scaling. It is strange to say the least when a bandit is a more capable warrior than the general of the Stormcloaks. The challenge should be proportional to level, to use a D&D reference, a displacer beast should be a challenge to a party at level 6 as a White Great Wyrm should be to a party at level 17.

[tankdogg937]

Who is more "superhero" or godlike?

A. The Warden who drinks super-duper spawn blood and becomes a raging killing machine? (The Hulk/Captain America).
B. Hawke a highly skilled warrior with no genetic mutations or additives? (Hawkeye/Black Widow)

The Warden is far more over hyped than Hawke. Hawke can't even keep his own family safe let alone an entire country.

[wsandista]

tankdogg937 wrote...

Who is more "superhero" or godlike?

A. The Warden who drinks super-duper spawn blood and becomes a raging killing machine? (The Hulk/Captain America).
B. Hawke a highly skilled warrior with no genetic mutations or additives? (Hawkeye/Black Widow)

The Warden is far more over hyped than Hawke. Hawke can't even keep his own family safe let alone an entire country.

Black Widow has been enhanced. You really should read the comics if you want to make a point.

Hawke kills a giant beast despite it grabbing someone (who has skill around that of Hawke) and instantly killing them, Hawke manages to go into the Deep Roads and fight hordes of darkspawn yet remain untainted despite having no resistance to the taint or having someone in the party who knows how to deal with darkspawn and avoid being tainted (Anders doesn't count seeing as if DA2 is chronological, he arrived in Kirkwall shortly after DAA and that he doesn't have to go to the Deep Roads), Hawke manages to live in a city for seven years yet never get in any trouble for using forbidden abilities of traveling with those who do, etc.

At least for the Warden, there is an explanation for the enhanced prowess.

Of course they are both 'heroic' characters who have abilities quite above average(but not super human), but the Warden has done more than Hawke, in less time, with fewer resources, and in more challenging circumstances.

Modifié par wsandista, 09 mai 2012 - 05:42 .

[tankdogg937]

wsandista wrote...

tankdogg937 wrote...

Who is more "superhero" or godlike?

A. The Warden who drinks super-duper spawn blood and becomes a raging killing machine? (The Hulk/Captain America).
B. Hawke a highly skilled warrior with no genetic mutations or additives? (Hawkeye/Black Widow)

The Warden is far more over hyped than Hawke. Hawke can't even keep his own family safe let alone an entire country.

Black Widow has been enhanced. You really should read the comics if you want to make a point.

The Warden can get in huge trouble at the beginning of the game, but he has someone save him(Duncan), Hawke doesn't. Hawke kills a giant beast despite it grabbing someone who has skill around that of Hawke and instantly killing them, Hawke manages to go into the Deep Roads and fight hordes of darkspawn yet remain untainted despite having no resistance to the taint or having someone in the party who knows how to deal with darkspawn(Anders doesn't count seeing as if DA2 is chronological, he arrived in Kirkwall shortly after DAA), Hawke manages to live in a city for seven years yet never get in any trouble for using forbidden abilities of traveling with those who do, etc. At least for the Warden, there is an explanation for their enhanced prowess.

There are better ways to say "you're wrong" than making smarky arsehat comments. Just a thought. I'm not much of a comic book geek and the movies never really hashed out that specific character.

Modifié par tankdogg937, 09 mai 2012 - 05:42 .

[wsandista]

tankdogg937 wrote...

wsandista wrote...

tankdogg937 wrote...

Who is more "superhero" or godlike?

A. The Warden who drinks super-duper spawn blood and becomes a raging killing machine? (The Hulk/Captain America).
B. Hawke a highly skilled warrior with no genetic mutations or additives? (Hawkeye/Black Widow)

The Warden is far more over hyped than Hawke. Hawke can't even keep his own family safe let alone an entire country.

Black Widow has been enhanced. You really should read the comics if you want to make a point.

The Warden can get in huge trouble at the beginning of the game, but he has someone save him(Duncan), Hawke doesn't. Hawke kills a giant beast despite it grabbing someone who has skill around that of Hawke and instantly killing them, Hawke manages to go into the Deep Roads and fight hordes of darkspawn yet remain untainted despite having no resistance to the taint or having someone in the party who knows how to deal with darkspawn(Anders doesn't count seeing as if DA2 is chronological, he arrived in Kirkwall shortly after DAA), Hawke manages to live in a city for seven years yet never get in any trouble for using forbidden abilities of traveling with those who do, etc. At least for the Warden, there is an explanation for their enhanced prowess.

There are better ways to say "you're wrong" than making smarky arsehat comments. Just a thought. I'm not much of a comic book geek and the movies never really hashed out that specific character.

Which is why you shouldn't use something that is unknown to you as an example.

Edit: I was wrong Hawke does have someone save them like the Warden does, Hawke just kills an extremely powerful darkspawn first with less people and less experienced people.

Modifié par wsandista, 09 mai 2012 - 05:50 .

[tankdogg937]

Whatever you say boss. I bow to your superior expertise in this matter.

[labargegrrrl]

to original post:

a hero and a protagonist are NOT the same thing. nor do they have to be. hero is a mere subclass of protagonist. i'm up for playing either, so long as the story is interesting.

Warden=Hero (hence the title "Hero of Ferelden"). Hawke=Protagonist. (the whole "rise to power" marketing they did before release, should have tipped you off on that, btw)

I don't know about you, but I expect either/or in the next game. You, on the other hand, have fifty-fifty odds of being sorely disappointed.

[wsandista]

labargegrrrl wrote...

to original post:

a hero and a protagonist are NOT the same thing. nor do they have to be. hero is a mere subclass of protagonist. i'm up for playing either, so long as the story is interesting.

Warden=Hero (hence the title "Hero of Ferelden"). Hawke=Protagonist. (the whole "rise to power" marketing they did before release, should have tipped you off on that, btw)

I don't know about you, but I expect either/or in the next game. You, on the other hand, have fifty-fifty odds of being sorely disappointed.

Hawke=Passes through life without sacrifice. Sure Hawke does lose family, but when does Hawke ever willingly sacrifice anything? The Warden can make sacrifices throughout DAO.

[Realmzmaster]

wsandista wrote...

tankdogg937 wrote...

wsandista wrote...

tankdogg937 wrote...

Who is more "superhero" or godlike?

A. The Warden who drinks super-duper spawn blood and becomes a raging killing machine? (The Hulk/Captain America).
B. Hawke a highly skilled warrior with no genetic mutations or additives? (Hawkeye/Black Widow)

The Warden is far more over hyped than Hawke. Hawke can't even keep his own family safe let alone an entire country.

Black Widow has been enhanced. You really should read the comics if you want to make a point.

The Warden can get in huge trouble at the beginning of the game, but he has someone save him(Duncan), Hawke doesn't. Hawke kills a giant beast despite it grabbing someone who has skill around that of Hawke and instantly killing them, Hawke manages to go into the Deep Roads and fight hordes of darkspawn yet remain untainted despite having no resistance to the taint or having someone in the party who knows how to deal with darkspawn(Anders doesn't count seeing as if DA2 is chronological, he arrived in Kirkwall shortly after DAA), Hawke manages to live in a city for seven years yet never get in any trouble for using forbidden abilities of traveling with those who do, etc. At least for the Warden, there is an explanation for their enhanced prowess.

There are better ways to say "you're wrong" than making smarky arsehat comments. Just a thought. I'm not much of a comic book geek and the movies never really hashed out that specific character.

Which is why you shouldn't use something that is unknown to you as an example.

Edit: I was wrong Hawke does have someone save them like the Warden does, Hawke just kills an extremely powerful darkspawn first with less people and less experienced people.

What do you mean less experienced people? Carver and Hawke are both soldiers. Aveline is a solider and has been one for some time. Bethany is a mage. The warden kills an Ogre in the tower with Alistair, maybe dog another guard or mage depending on what the warden is. Hawke kills an Ogre with either Bethany/Carver and Aveline. Seems to me the teams are roughly equal..

Also the original Black Widow was not enhanced that is the revised and reconned origin. The original Black Widow was a Soviet agent. She was trained as a spy, sniper and martial artist who was equipped with high tech weaponry especially two wrist energy weapons called the Widow's bite. She defected to the US because of her love for Hawkeye.   Marvel change her origin when Marvel rebooted the character and had to explain how she lived so long. In the original series Amazing Adventures (1970's)  she was saved by Captain America, Wolverine and her suggorate father Ivan Petrovich from the Germans in 1941.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 09 mai 2012 - 06:10 .

[wsandista]

Realmzmaster wrote...

What do you mean less experienced people? Carver and Hawke are both soldiers. Aveline is a solider and has been one for some time. Bethany is a mage. The warden kills an Ogre in the tower with Alistair, maybe dog another guard or mage depending on what the warden is. Hawke kills an Ogre with either Bethany/Carver and Aveline. Seems to me the teams are roughly equal..

let us assume that
Carver/Aveline=soldiers in the tower
Bethany=circle mage

Warden has Alistair with him, Alistair is trained as a Templar and a Grey Warden,
I don't know where to rank Dog.... so let us assume he is around soldier level

Anyway

Hawke, 1 soldier, and 1 mage or 1 soldier, they have been running as well so they are most likely fatigued

Warden, Alistair, 1 soldier, 1 mage or soldier or Dog

Team Hawke: 3 people with competent levels of experience

Team Warden: 4 people(including Dog), 3 with competent skill, 1 with slightly more experience fighting darkspawn otherwise competent, also have some time to rest before beginning fight

Hawke has 1 less person aiding him in his battle, and none have really trained explicitly for fighting darkspawn, and all have been running so it can be assumed that they are fatigued.

Also the original Black Widow was not enhanced that is the revised and reconned origin. The original Black Widow was a Soviet agent. She was trained as a spy, sniper and martial artist who was equipped with high tech weaponry especially two wrist energy weapns called the Widow's bite. She defected to the US because of her love for Hawkeye.   Marvel change her origin when Marvel rebooted the charcter and had to expalin how she lived so long. In the original series Amazing Adventures (1970's)  she was saved by Captain America, Wolverine and her suggorate father Ivan Petrovich from the ****s in 1941.

We were talking about Natalia Romanova, the new retcon who is featured in The Avengers movie.

[Sylvius the Mad]

tankdogg937 wrote...

Who is more "superhero" or godlike?

A. The Warden who drinks super-duper spawn blood and becomes a raging killing machine? (The Hulk/Captain America).
B. Hawke a highly skilled warrior with no genetic mutations or additives? (Hawkeye/Black Widow)

The Warden is far more over hyped than Hawke.

But that's not the character we're given.  We're given an ordinary guy fleeing disaster.

Only after we take control does he become a Grey Warden.

The character we're given should be ordinary.  Cousland is ordinary.  Aeducan is ordinary.  Hawke, who can defeat an Ogre right at the start of the game, is not ordinary.

[wsandista]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

tankdogg937 wrote...

Who is more "superhero" or godlike?

A. The Warden who drinks super-duper spawn blood and becomes a raging killing machine? (The Hulk/Captain America).
B. Hawke a highly skilled warrior with no genetic mutations or additives? (Hawkeye/Black Widow)

The Warden is far more over hyped than Hawke.

But that's not the character we're given.  We're given an ordinary guy fleeing disaster.

Only after we take control does he become a Grey Warden.

The character we're given should be ordinary.  Cousland is ordinary.  Aeducan is ordinary.  Hawke, who can defeat an Ogre right at the start of the game, is not ordinary.

I don't know about ordinary as in completely average. Perhaps highly skilled or talented(like a gifted Olympic athlete) is more accurate, but not able to kill an ogre with only 3 people who are exhausted from running away from a murderous horde for an unspecified amount of time.

[nightcobra]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

tankdogg937 wrote...

Who is more "superhero" or godlike?

A. The Warden who drinks super-duper spawn blood and becomes a raging killing machine? (The Hulk/Captain America).
B. Hawke a highly skilled warrior with no genetic mutations or additives? (Hawkeye/Black Widow)

The Warden is far more over hyped than Hawke.

But that's not the character we're given.  We're given an ordinary guy fleeing disaster.

Only after we take control does he become a Grey Warden.

The character we're given should be ordinary.  Cousland is ordinary.  Aeducan is ordinary.  Hawke, who can defeat an Ogre right at the start of the game, is not ordinary.

well...he did have the help of an experienced soldier and her templar husband.
it's pretty much the same team roundup where the warden, alistair and unnamed soldier defeated a darkspawn infested tower with an ogre at the top. 


and becoming a warden doesn't really give you super strength or anything, just a sixth sense for sensing darkspawn and an immunity against the taint (or rather, you taint yourself but delay its fatal effects for about 30 years), basically just a means of letting an already exceptional person (since that's the "usual" requirement to become a candidate to become a warden) fight as long as possible against darkspawn.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 09 mai 2012 - 07:31 .