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[wsandista]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

tankdogg937 wrote...

Who is more "superhero" or godlike?

A. The Warden who drinks super-duper spawn blood and becomes a raging killing machine? (The Hulk/Captain America).
B. Hawke a highly skilled warrior with no genetic mutations or additives? (Hawkeye/Black Widow)

The Warden is far more over hyped than Hawke.

But that's not the character we're given.  We're given an ordinary guy fleeing disaster.

Only after we take control does he become a Grey Warden.

The character we're given should be ordinary.  Cousland is ordinary.  Aeducan is ordinary.  Hawke, who can defeat an Ogre right at the start of the game, is not ordinary.

well...he did have the help of an experienced soldier and her templar husband.
it's pretty much the same team roundup where the warden, alistair and unnamed soldier defeated a darkspawn infested tower with an ogre at the top. 

Warden also had a mage, another soldier, or Dog with them.
Templar husband was crippled.

[nightcobra]

it's aveline...the human shaped battering ram or so they call her.


and becoming a warden doesn't really give you super strength or anything, just a sixth sense for sensing darkspawn and an immunity against the taint (or rather, you taint yourself but delay its fatal effects for about 30 years), basically just a means of letting an already exceptional person (since that's the "usual" requirement to become a candidate to become a warden) fight as long as possible against darkspawn. 

the warden and hawke are pretty much equiparable, exceptionally talented people. if they weren't they wouldn't have gone far in the the story in the first place. and even then they both would have died if not for flemmeth.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 09 mai 2012 - 07:38 .

[wsandista]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

it's aveline...the human shaped battering ram or so they call her.

Alistair is an exceptional warrior who is good enough to have survived the Joining. Aveline is roughly the same skill as an average soldier.

and becoming a warden doesn't really give you super strength or anything, just a sixth sense for sensing darkspawn and an immunity against the taint (or rather, you taint yourself but delay its fatal effects for about 30 years), basically just a means of letting an already exceptional person (since that's the "usual" requirement to become a candidate to become a warden) fight as long as possible against darkspawn. 

I believe that the Joining enchances the Wardens ability(according to the Wardens keep drama), albeit slightly.

[Sylvius the Mad]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

But that's not the character we're given.  We're given an ordinary guy fleeing disaster.

Only after we take control does he become a Grey Warden.

The character we're given should be ordinary.  Cousland is ordinary.  Aeducan is ordinary.  Hawke, who can defeat an Ogre right at the start of the game, is not ordinary.

well...he did have the help of an experienced soldier and her templar husband.
it's pretty much the same team roundup where the warden, alistair and unnamed soldier defeated a darkspawn infested tower with an ogre at the top.

The Warden doesn't do that, though, until after facing that level 1 tragedy, and then learning how to fight darkspawn in the Korcari wilds, and then going through the Joining.

It would be relevantly similar if Castle Cousland had been invaded by an Ogre, or if Jowan had summoned demons in the Circle Tower basement, or if Bhelen had released Shrieks into the Proving Ground to kill Aeducan.

You're making apples to oranges comparisons.  Nothing even close to an Ogre confronted the Warden during the origin itself.

[AkiKishi]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

it's aveline...the human shaped battering ram or so they call her.


and becoming a warden doesn't really give you super strength or anything, just a sixth sense for sensing darkspawn and an immunity against the taint (or rather, you taint yourself but delay its fatal effects for about 30 years), basically just a means of letting an already exceptional person (since that's the "usual" requirement to become a candidate to become a warden) fight as long as possible against darkspawn. 

the warden and hawke are pretty much equiparable, exceptionally talented people. if they weren't they wouldn't have gone far in the the story in the first place. and even then they both would have died if not for flemmeth.

The Warden is an exceptional character in an exceptional adventure. Hawke is an exeptional character in a mundane adventure.This is the key reason for why he and his group feel out of place.

[Realmzmaster]

wsandista wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

What do you mean less experienced people? Carver and Hawke are both soldiers. Aveline is a solider and has been one for some time. Bethany is a mage. The warden kills an Ogre in the tower with Alistair, maybe dog another guard or mage depending on what the warden is. Hawke kills an Ogre with either Bethany/Carver and Aveline. Seems to me the teams are roughly equal..

let us assume that
Carver/Aveline=soldiers in the tower
Bethany=circle mage

Warden has Alistair with him, Alistair is trained as a Templar and a Grey Warden,
I don't know where to rank Dog.... so let us assume he is around soldier level

Anyway

Hawke, 1 soldier, and 1 mage or 1 soldier, they have been running as well so they are most likely fatigued

Warden, Alistair, 1 soldier, 1 mage or soldier or Dog

Team Hawke: 3 people with competent levels of experience

Team Warden: 4 people(including Dog), 3 with competent skill, 1 with slightly more experience fighting darkspawn otherwise competent, also have some time to rest before beginning fight

Hawke has 1 less person aiding him in his battle, and none have really trained explicitly for fighting darkspawn, and all have been running so it can be assumed that they are fatigued.

Also the original Black Widow was not enhanced that is the revised and reconned origin. The original Black Widow was a Soviet agent. She was trained as a spy, sniper and martial artist who was equipped with high tech weaponry especially two wrist energy weapns called the Widow's bite. She defected to the US because of her love for Hawkeye.   Marvel change her origin when Marvel rebooted the charcter and had to expalin how she lived so long. In the original series Amazing Adventures (1970's)  she was saved by Captain America, Wolverine and her suggorate father Ivan Petrovich from the ****s in 1941.

We were talking about Natalia Romanova, the new retcon who is featured in The Avengers movie.

The Black Widow has had the same name throughout. The name is not a recon the origin is.

[Realmzmaster]

wsandista wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

What do you mean less experienced people? Carver and Hawke are both soldiers. Aveline is a solider and has been one for some time. Bethany is a mage. The warden kills an Ogre in the tower with Alistair, maybe dog another guard or mage depending on what the warden is. Hawke kills an Ogre with either Bethany/Carver and Aveline. Seems to me the teams are roughly equal..

let us assume that
Carver/Aveline=soldiers in the tower
Bethany=circle mage

Warden has Alistair with him, Alistair is trained as a Templar and a Grey Warden,
I don't know where to rank Dog.... so let us assume he is around soldier level

Anyway

Hawke, 1 soldier, and 1 mage or 1 soldier, they have been running as well so they are most likely fatigued

Warden, Alistair, 1 soldier, 1 mage or soldier or Dog

Team Hawke: 3 people with competent levels of experience

Team Warden: 4 people(including Dog), 3 with competent skill, 1 with slightly more experience fighting darkspawn otherwise competent, also have some time to rest before beginning fight

Hawke has 1 less person aiding him in his battle, and none have really trained explicitly for fighting darkspawn, and all have been running so it can be assumed that they are fatigued.

Also the original Black Widow was not enhanced that is the revised and reconned origin. The original Black Widow was a Soviet agent. She was trained as a spy, sniper and martial artist who was equipped with high tech weaponry especially two wrist energy weapns called the Widow's bite. She defected to the US because of her love for Hawkeye.   Marvel change her origin when Marvel rebooted the charcter and had to expalin how she lived so long. In the original series Amazing Adventures (1970's)  she was saved by Captain America, Wolverine and her suggorate father Ivan Petrovich from the ****s in 1941.

We were talking about Natalia Romanova, the new retcon who is featured in The Avengers movie.

Not three people. If you have the Black Euporium you also have dog. The Warden and Alistair fought all the way up the tower along with the other two, so they are equally fatigued.

[Wulfram]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

But that's not the character we're given.  We're given an ordinary guy fleeing disaster.

Only after we take control does he become a Grey Warden.

The character we're given should be ordinary.  Cousland is ordinary.  Aeducan is ordinary.  Hawke, who can defeat an Ogre right at the start of the game, is not ordinary.

Aeducan wins the proving.  Tabris turns a palace full of guards into mincemeat.  Not ordinary.

Modifié par Wulfram, 09 mai 2012 - 06:13 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Wulfram wrote...

Aeducan wins the proving. 

He's second in line to the throne of a kingdom that's always at war with the darkspawn.  He presumably had the best possible training.

Though that is an argument for why Aeducan shouldn't start at level 1.

Tabris turns a palace full of guards into mincemeat.  Not ordinary.

Vaughan's guards might have been useless.  And Tabris had help: if you let him, Soris will turn the guards into mincemeat without Tabris having to do anything.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 09 mai 2012 - 06:19 .

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Aeducan wins the proving. 

He's second in line to the throne of a kingdom that's always at war with the darkspawn.  He presumably had the best possible training.

Though that is an argument for why Aeducan shouldn't start at level 1.

Tabris turns a palace full of guards into mincemeat.  Not ordinary.

Vaughan's guards might have been useless.  And Tabris had help: if you let him, Soris will turn the guards into mincemeat without Tabris having to do anything.

Actually none of the wardens should have started at level one. Cousland had enough training to participate and win tournaments against skilled warriors. Aeducan had plenty of training as did the warden mage. Aeducan had experience fighting the darkspawn. The city elf was trained by his/her mother to fight. The dalish elf had training in becoming a hunter and had to prove his/her worth by killing some big game animal. So none of the wardens would be considered ordinary level one characters. It would have been interesting to see the different races start at different levels and for their origins to reflect that.

Just like Hawke should not be a level one character starting out given that he/she had training, was a soldier, and fought against darkspawn at Ostagar. It has been convention that most main games start the character at level one. Expansions can start a character at any level or give a pre-generated character to start with if you do not wish to create one.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Actually none of the wardens should have started at level one. Cousland had enough training to participate and win tournaments against skilled warriors. Aeducan had plenty of training as did the warden mage. Aeducan had experience fighting the darkspawn. The city elf was trained by his/her mother to fight. The dalish elf had training in becoming a hunter and had to prove his/her worth by killing some big game animal. So none of the wardens would be considered ordinary level one characters.

The basic training we see for the mages and the city elf, I think, are what give them a character class.  There's no need they be higher that level 1.  The same goes for the casteless dwarf.

There's certainly a good argument for Cousland, and Aeducan is a no-brainer.

It would have been interesting to see the different races start at different levels and for their origins to reflect that.

I agree completely.  And given that the whole game was scaled, I think that would have worked without too much modification.

Just like Hawke should not be a level one character starting out given that he/she had training, was a soldier, and fought against darkspawn at Ostagar. It has been convention that most main games start the character at level one. Expansions can start a character at any level or give a pre-generated character to start with if you do not wish to create one.

NWN basically started the character at level 3.  Yes, you did play through levels 1 and 2 during the tutorial, but the rate of advancement was extreme and clearly designed just to teach the player about the level-up process.

Also, you could import higher-level characters and start at any level above 3 you chose.  I find the NWN OC quite entertaining starting at level 15.

[Vormaerin]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The Warden doesn't do that, though, until after facing that level 1 tragedy, and then learning how to fight darkspawn in the Korcari wilds, and then going through the Joining.

It would be relevantly similar if Castle Cousland had been invaded by an Ogre, or if Jowan had summoned demons in the Circle Tower basement, or if Bhelen had released Shrieks into the Proving Ground to kill Aeducan.

You're making apples to oranges comparisons.  Nothing even close to an Ogre confronted the Warden during the origin itself.

You sure are working awfully hard to stretch things to support your point.

You are seriously claiming that two afternoons of fighting are a difference maker between the Warden and Hawke?  Because only the dwarf backgrounds represent more than that.

Cousland and the city elf kill some guards in a castle, then kill a few darkspawn in the woods, then fight their way to the ogre.

Hawke fights through waves until the ogre arrives.  Not to mention, Hawke's background actually involves real fighting in a real battle, which isn't true of the Cousland or city elf.  I can't recall if Hawke fought in more of the war than the slaughter at the ruins, but he's at least fought in that battle.

And where do you get off saying that Avelline is "an average soldier"?  That's completely not supported by her backstory or the events of the game.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 09 mai 2012 - 07:52 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Vormaerin wrote...

You sure are working awfully hard to stretch things to support your point.

You are seriously claiming that two afternoons of fighting are a difference maker between the Warden and Hawke?  Because only the dwarf backgrounds represent more than that.

Cousland and the city elf kill some guards in a castle, then kill a few darkspawn in the woods, then fight their way to the ogre.

There are mutliple mini-bosses in the Korcari Wilds, extensive observation of darkspawn behaviour, and then there's a magical ceremnony that infuses the Warden with blight-related power.  And enough XP to advance a couple of levels.

Hawke is a guy.  He fights off a some darkspawn while accompanied by a full group, and then kills an Ogre (of the sort that killed Cailan and required someone of Duncan's skill to defeat).

Hawke fights through waves until the ogre arrives.  Not to mention, Hawke's background actually involves real fighting in a real battle, which isn't true of the Cousland or city elf.  I can't recall if Hawke fought in more of the war than the slaughter at the ruins, but he's at least fought in that battle.

Did he?  Was that made clear at any point in the game?  I don't recall that at all.

And where do you get off saying that Avelline is "an average soldier"?

I don't.  I said nothing of the sort.

Though the game mechanics do make her fairly typical.  Her abilities are not dissimilar from those available to any other warrior.

[Wulfram]

Warrior Hawke was at Ostagar with Carver. Mage Hawke wasn't.

Of course, Hawke is about 5 years older than the Warden, so could be expected to have a bit more skill starting out.

[Vormaerin]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

There are mutliple mini-bosses in the Korcari Wilds, extensive observation of darkspawn behaviour, and then there's a magical ceremnony that infuses the Warden with blight-related power.  And enough XP to advance a couple of levels.

No matter how you want to spin it, the jaunt into the Korcari wilds was an afternoon.   They could give 50 levels in there and it would still be an afternoon.  You can't tell me that an afternoon's experience transforms someone from "ordinary" to "ogre slaying hero" and expect Ogre slaying hero to mean something.

Sylvius the Mad wrote... Did he?  Was that made clear at any point in the game?  I don't recall that at all.

It was mentioned in the game, though another poster says it never says that for Mage Hawkes.  I never played a mage Hawke, so that's entirely possible.

Sylvius the Mad wrote... I don't.  I said nothing of the sort.  Though the game mechanics do make her fairly typical.  Her abilities are not dissimilar from those available to any other warrior.

You are right.  I confused something wsandista posted with you.   Sorry.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 09 mai 2012 - 08:58 .

[FKA_Servo]

Mage Hawke was busy being an apostate - I think the implication was willfully hanging out with the law (read: Cailan's army) was a bad idea.

Wulfram gives the best justification here, I'd say. Not only is s/he older than the warden when s/he starts out, the story and evidence at least supports the notion that s/he's a reasonably skilled warrior from the get go. Particularly as a mage - use of magic, in context of the setting, makes someone a more dangerous than average foe as it is. But Hawke would have benefited from instruction from Malcom (a powerful mage) without the constraints of the circle, templars, and phylacteries.

[Vormaerin]

Besides, in my first play through of the game, it was the gate guard soldier guy who got the awesome kill the ogre death animation. Alistair was unconscious and my rogue was trying to get back on his feet after a knockdown.

So where does that put the "ogre slaying hero" argument? That gate guard must be a world class bad ass, eh?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Vormaerin wrote...

It was mentioned in the game, though another poster says it never says that for Mage Hawkes.  I never played a mage Hawke, so that's entirely possible.

That would make sense.  I only played Mage Hawkes.

[wsandista]

Realmzmaster wrote...


Not three people. If you have the Black Euporium you also have dog.

That is an IF, not an absolute. Some people who do(or did) not have Black Emporium did not have Dog with them.

The Warden and Alistair fought all the way up the tower along with the other two, so they are equally fatigued.

The Warden's party had some time to rest before they went to the Tower though, Hawke's party had been on the run for an unspecified amount of time, but it is inferred that it has been for at least quite a few hours, if not days.

The Black Widow has had the same name throughout. The name is not a recon the origin is.

Huh, I remember a "Natasha Romanoff" Black Widow, probably just a spelling inconsistency though. Recon is canon though, Superman originally had powers because of coming from a high-gravity world, but is now accepted that they come from absorbing the radiation of a yellow-sun. Then there is the Spider-Man semi-recon where the spider was giving him it's powers as a gift before radiation killed it, instead of just being a radioactive spider.

[Realmzmaster]

wsandista wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...


Not three people. If you have the Black Euporium you also have dog.

That is an IF, not an absolute. Some people who do(or did) not have Black Emporium did not have Dog with them.

The Warden and Alistair fought all the way up the tower along with the other two, so they are equally fatigued.

The Warden's party had some time to rest before they went to the Tower though, Hawke's party had been on the run for an unspecified amount of time, but it is inferred that it has been for at least quite a few hours, if not days.

The Black Widow has had the same name throughout. The name is not a recon the origin is.

Huh, I remember a "Natasha Romanoff" Black Widow, probably just a spelling inconsistency though. Recon is canon though, Superman originally had powers because of coming from a high-gravity world, but is now accepted that they come from absorbing the radiation of a yellow-sun. Then there is the Spider-Man semi-recon where the spider was giving him it's powers as a gift before radiation killed it, instead of just being a radioactive spider.

The Hawke party had been running for hours not days. Days would have put them many miles from Lothering. Hawke's mom can clearly see Lothering burning in the distance. Also Bethany states why did they not leave sooner. The warden's party had been fighting the darkspawn all the way up the tower and I doubt that happened in a few minutes.

The full name of the black widow is Natalia Alianovna Romanova also known as Natasha Romanoff. First apperance Tales of Suspense No. 52 April 1964. 

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 10 mai 2012 - 02:12 .

[Vormaerin]

If they had been "running" for days, they wouldn't be anywhere near the Darkspawn and we wouldn't have the intro at all.

I'm still not getting your point, though. Hawke is super powered because he kills an ogre with one less companion than the warden?

[wsandista]

Realmzmaster wrote...

The Hawke party had been running for hours not days. Days would have put them many miles from Lothering. Hawke's mom can clearly see Lothering burning in the distance. Also Bethany states why did they not leave sooner.

Carver states "I've (or We've) been running since Ostagar" So at least one warrior has been running away from the darspawn for a while. The same can be assumed for Aveline as well. Mages are not known for physical endurance.

The warden's party had been fighting the darkspawn all the way up the tower and I doubt that happened in a few minutes.

True, but the Warden fought darkspawn after having some time to recuperate after the joining. We can assume that Wardens had at least an hour of rest

The full name of the black widow is Natalia Alianovna Romanova also known as Natasha Romanoff. First apperance Tales of Suspense No. 52 April 1964. 

I seem to remember something about a supernatural Black Widow who brought souls to Satan.

[wsandista]

Vormaerin wrote...

If they had been "running" for days, they wouldn't be anywhere near the Darkspawn and we wouldn't have the intro at all.

I'm still not getting your point, though. Hawke is super powered because he kills an ogre with one less companion than the warden?

That and at a lower level with less expierence fighting darkspawn.

It would be like if Howe brought an ogre instead of "Howe Knight" to seige castle Coulsand, or an ogre instead of "Deep Stalker Alpha(or possibly 'Leader', can't remember right now)" was fought by Aeducan in his race to find th GW. An ogre should not be encountered until around level 5 or 6, not level 3.

[Vormaerin]

Now you are just getting into game mechanics and that's a realm of pure nonsense. There's all kinds of game mechanics elements that are obviously not "realistic". Like how you can teleport your healing potions from character to character at will. And both PCs can just blink their eyes to freeze time. Level is a game mechanic. It doesn't tell you anything about the character's power level compared to the rest of the world. The two games don't even use the same combat system, so the levels aren't necessarily equivalent.

If anything, the evidence supports the Cousland warden as being less experienced than Hawke "in story" at that point, since we know exactly how little real fighting the Cousland has actually seen, but Hawke's is more nebulous. We just know he has some prior experience.

[wsandista]

Vormaerin wrote...

Now you are just getting into game mechanics and that's a realm of pure nonsense. There's all kinds of game mechanics elements that are obviously not "realistic". Like how you can teleport your healing potions from character to character at will. And both PCs can just blink their eyes to freeze time. Level is a game mechanic. It doesn't tell you anything about the character's power level compared to the rest of the world. The two games don't even use the same combat system, so the levels aren't necessarily equivalent.

I use levels as a bench mark, I see it like this: level 1-3 is the peon or nobody stage, level 4-10 is the adventurer stage, level 11-19 is the heroic stage, and level 20-26 is the epic hero stage. Generally this system accurately places where the PC is at that particular point in their story.

If anything, the evidence supports the Cousland warden as being less experienced than Hawke "in story" at that point, since we know exactly how little real fighting the Cousland has actually seen, but Hawke's is more nebulous. We just know he has some prior experience.

We know that both Hawke and the Warden are generally considered above average at their respective class. We know Hawke either fled the darkspawn after being routed at Ostagar, or has been hiding their abilities as an apostate. We know the Warden has survived a difficult ordeal(origin story) and has fought and killed quite a few darkspawn. There is no evidence that Hawke has fought as many darkspawn as the Warden has at the point of their respective Ogre encounters.

Normally I would say that their experiences in combat could be created by the player, but since Hawke is a voiced PC that goes out the window, seeing as Hawke could contradict the background the player has created for them.