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[Rorschachinstein]

So back on the "God amongst mortals ordeal". There are games like "Shadow of the colossus" that let you feel insignificant compared to your opposition and it works great. But the gameplay style for DA wouldn't allow the PC to not be the most important person alive.

[Morroian]

wsandista wrote...

Normally I would say that their experiences in combat could be created by the player, but since Hawke is a voiced PC that goes out the window, seeing as Hawke could contradict the background the player has created for them.

I can't remember anything in the dialogue that would stop you from doing it anyway. 

[Zanallen]

Rorschachinstein wrote...

So back on the "God amongst mortals ordeal". There are games like "Shadow of the colossus" that let you feel insignificant compared to your opposition and it works great. But the gameplay style for DA wouldn't allow the PC to not be the most important person alive.

I think Radiata Stories handled it pretty well. Sure, you could only play as the main character, but he was one of the weaker party members and you game overed if he died.

[wsandista]

Morroian wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Normally I would say that their experiences in combat could be created by the player, but since Hawke is a voiced PC that goes out the window, seeing as Hawke could contradict the background the player has created for them.

I can't remember anything in the dialogue that would stop you from doing it anyway. 

You can't make a backstory for your character if at any time they may contradict it without any input form the player.

[AkiKishi]

wsandista wrote...

Morroian wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Normally I would say that their experiences in combat could be created by the player, but since Hawke is a voiced PC that goes out the window, seeing as Hawke could contradict the background the player has created for them.

I can't remember anything in the dialogue that would stop you from doing it anyway. 

You can't make a backstory for your character if at any time they may contradict it without any input form the player.

The chance of being able to do that in a cinematic game is next to nothing. This is why Bioware needs to get over this idea of giving people character creation and go the Witcher,Deus Ex route. Possibly with a male/female pregen rather than totally fixed. While it would certainly annoy a certain section of the fan base, it would solve almost every problem at a stroke and give a better cinematic experience.

[AkiKishi]

Zanallen wrote...

Rorschachinstein wrote...

So back on the "God amongst mortals ordeal". There are games like "Shadow of the colossus" that let you feel insignificant compared to your opposition and it works great. But the gameplay style for DA wouldn't allow the PC to not be the most important person alive.

I think Radiata Stories handled it pretty well. Sure, you could only play as the main character, but he was one of the weaker party members and you game overed if he died.

That's a lot like some of the Fire Emblem Lords. Ike and Hector are beasts, but most of them have been either average or poor. Even Ike and Hector are not exactly godly if you put them in the wrong match up.

Nothing beats Atelier Rorona,Totori and Meruru for weak protagonists.

[AkiKishi]

PurebredCorn wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

The chance of being able to do that in a cinematic game is next to nothing. This is why Bioware needs to get over this idea of giving people character creation and go the Witcher,Deus Ex route. Possibly with a male/female pregen rather than totally fixed. While it would certainly annoy a certain section of the fan base, it would solve almost every problem at a stroke and give a better cinematic experience.

I'm glad you're not in charge.

I'm sure many people share that view  If Bioware continue on the cinematic path, they will get there eventually regardless. Known quantities make for better cinematics and actors.

[wsandista]

BobSmith101 wrote...

wsandista wrote...

You can't make a backstory for your character if at any time they may contradict it without any input form the player.

The chance of being able to do that in a cinematic game is next to nothing. This is why Bioware needs to get over this idea of giving people character creation and go the Witcher,Deus Ex route. Possibly with a male/female pregen rather than totally fixed. While it would certainly annoy a certain section of the fan base, it would solve almost every problem at a stroke and give a better cinematic experience.

I know, which is why I do not want a cinematic game with a player-generated character.

If they insist on cinematic than they should look at ME, Shepard is always Shepard, no matter the class or appearance.

[Vormaerin]

wsandista wrote...

I use levels as a bench mark, I see it like this: level 1-3 is the peon or nobody stage, level 4-10 is the adventurer stage, level 11-19 is the heroic stage, and level 20-26 is the epic hero stage. Generally this system accurately places where the PC is at that particular point in their story.


We know that both Hawke and the Warden are generally considered above average at their respective class.

Well, you could use it like that, but you'd just be pulling numbers out of your ass.   We have no frame of reference for what is typical.   Further, the game world scales.   So a lvl 15 Hawke is fighting street gangs with about the same success at a lvl 4 Hawke.   Clearly, the levels are pure game mechanic and not a roleplaying element.

As for the warden, in the Cousland background I kept hearing about how you were too young, not ready, blah, blah, blah. 


Anyway, this is all besides the point.   The "God among men" problem isn't about how combat effective the character is compared to others.   Its about presentation and the way the world reacts to the character.   The Warden is instantly "Special" for no reason.    Some 18 or 19 yr old girl with moldy papers manages to suddenly become the power behind the throne for every race in Ferelden.   And then you ride off to kill a god.   Woot.

Hawke, at least, is a nobody until he gets rich and even then folks are still pretty much "oh, its a rich nobody".   He's not actually important until he directly saves their asses by fighting a very public duel with the Arishok.

And even then, he's only one amongst the several major players in the city.  And he's not killing gods and saving all humanity.

[wsandista]

Vormaerin wrote...

Well, you could use it like that, but you'd just be pulling numbers out of your ass.

Warden
Level 1-3: Origin story, just getting started (Nobody)
Level 4-10: Go into Kocari Wilds, Survive Ostagar, Perform Miscellaneous tasks in Lothering (Adventurer)
Level 10-19: Completes 3 or 4 out of 4 of the main quests (Heroic)
Level 20-26: (possibly) Complete final main quest, go to Landsmeet, pick monarch for Ferelden, Save Thedas from destruction (Epic Hero)

Does this seem about right?

Again this is simply a bench-mark to give a idea where the character is, it is in no way absolute, but it can generally be applied to almost any Western RPG with a player-generated PC.

We have no frame of reference for what is typical.   Further, the game world scales.   So a lvl 15 Hawke is fighting street gangs with about the same success at a lvl 4 Hawke.

Level-scaling is an abomination, I believe I've already said this or something similar to you. With level-scaling a bandit near the end of the game can(and usually is) more powerful than main antagonists faced earlier in the story. I believe this should not be the case.

The Warden is instantly "Special" for no reason.

You mean besides having drank an elixir of drakspawn blood and lyrium.

Some 18 or 19 yr old girl with moldy papers manages to suddenly become the power behind the throne for every race in Ferelden.   And then you ride off to kill a god.   Woot.

Hawke, at least, is a nobody until he gets rich and even then folks are still pretty much "oh, its a rich nobody".   He's not actually important until he directly saves their asses by fighting a very public duel with the Arishok.

And even then, he's only one amongst the several major players in the city.  And he's not killing gods and saving all humanity.

Which is what brings us into the "God-Among-Mortals" portrayal

The Warden is an epic character in an epic story, while Hawke is an epic character in a mundane story.

That is why the Warden struggles more, The Warden is pitted against foes that are worthy for one of their considerable abilities, while Hawke breezes by since their foes are no match for Hawke's considerable abilities.

Modifié par wsandista, 11 mai 2012 - 02:10 .

[Cantina]

I do not view the Warden or Hawke as “Gods among mortals.”

Just because a character achieves something does not mean they come from a higher plain. The Warden and Hawke are on two completely different paths. The sole purpose of Origins was for your Warden to stop the Blight. There have been other Blights and other Wardens have stopped them. Does this make them Gods too? Then you have Hawke, she/he is thrown into conflicts some beyond their control.

It is not the same as being a Warden with a clear-cut purpose. Hawke has more control over the outcome of their future compared to the Warden.

I don’t think the game would be as much fun as watching your character sit around a table and have cookies and tea with his/her friends.

[Uccio]

Neither Hawke or Warden were gods among men, or even demi-gods. The main characters of BG and NWN2 had a possibility to be one. I have actually always wanted to play a person who will stay "everyman" who is not saving the universe, through out the game, even if he ends up noble or something. That way it is easier to continue the story in the next game. DA2 had the right idea but could not deliver.

Modifié par Ukki, 11 mai 2012 - 02:50 .

[Vormaerin]

wsandista wrote...

Does this seem about right?

Level-scaling is an abomination,

The Warden is an epic character in an epic story, while Hawke is an epic character in a mundane story.

That is why the Warden struggles more, The Warden is pitted against foes that are worthy for one of their considerable abilities, while Hawke breezes by since their foes are no match for Hawke's considerable abilities.

No, it doesn't seem about right.  Its purely an arbitrary construction on your part that isn't reflective of anything in game.   Secondly, it is indicative of a degree of power growth that is entirely ludicrous.  Wander around for a year fighting and presto, you are a superhuman killing machine!   Doesn't generally work like that.

Level scaling can have bad gameplay effects if done poorly, but its actually a good way to do stories.  Because, barring some supernatural influence, people don't go from noob to demigod in a few months.   Level scaling lets you feel a sense of progression as a game player (woot! new abilities!) without making a joke of the world.  If you don't have level scaling, you have to explain why Arl Howe's guards (not to mention Arl Howe himself) are such superheroes compared to the men he sent raiding the Cousland estate.   Or you have to explain why the PC is the only person in the universe to get XP. 

I'm not sure where you get the idea the Warden struggles more.  The warden has pretty much zero setbacks and steamrolls through to victory.  All the problems in the story stem from the incompetence of others.   He never loses, never sacrifices anything, never loses a character he remotely cares about except in the origin.  No one ever says  "Who the &**# is this idiot elf girl and why are we listening to her?"

On normal difficulty, DA2 is distinctly easier than DAO.  Which was well advertised.  But played on the higher difficulties, Hawke is not just facerolling the content and the whole point of the level scaling is to show that his abilities are exceptional, but not superhuman. 

[Vormaerin]

Cantina wrote...

Just because a character achieves something does not mean they come from a higher plain.

Ukki wrote...

Neither Hawke or Warden were gods among men, or even demi-gods.

I think you are both misunderstanding the phrase.  No one is accusing them of being the equivalent of Thor walking amongst the mundanes of Manhattan.

What I mean by it is that the character is treated like some special person for no reason to do with that person, but with crappy externalities.   Everyone treats the Warden as someone special for no reason.  Its "You are the chosen one" from Lothering on for no reason at all.  Even if you are just an 18 yr old elf girl from the ghetto who is wanted for murder.  

No one knows that only Grey Wardens can kill Archdemons.  That's a state secret.  No one knows about the blood drinking ritual. Its so secret they murder innocent people to keep the information from others.   And, even more importantly, no one takes Alistair or Riordan seriously and they are both far senior to the PC.

And, on top of that, you are given ludicrous options.   Appoint the dwarf king!  Decide the ruler of one of the most violently oligarchic cultures in the world (Ferelden).  Take command of armies even though you've barely even seen one, much less ever did anything effective with one.  Why?  Because everyone knows that 19 yr old elf girls make the best generals.

Bah.  Give me a character who is respected for some reason other than the clothes they happen to wear.   The DA2 story didn't work out as well as it could have, but at least Hawke is treated like a normal person.

[the_one_54321]

It's called being the main character, in most cases. In other cases this is taken too far.

[Vormaerin]

Yes, but if you want the main character to be taken seriously, you need to establish them as someone who actually does something and is legitimately recognized for that.

Hawke is the main character, but its established why the glory falls to him from the group's adventures. Varric deliberately downplays his role (and talks up Hawke's), plus the others (except for Avelline) all want to avoid the limelight for various reasons. Plus, Hawke is a noble of the city once he gets the money to pay the bribes to recall it and the duel with the Arishok is a very public one on one thing (though you don't have to do it that way).

There is nothing that the Warden does that doesn't also involve Alistair. Almost all of it is off in the middle of nowhere. RedCliffe is about the only thing actually done and witnessed in Ferelden. Possibly the Tower, but I doubt many want word of that really spreading.

So we get to the Landsmeet. We have two Grey Wardens. One, the older of the two, is a Royal Pretender and former Templar. The other is an young elf woman from the Alienage, probably fairly well known for the murder of the previous Arl's son.

And everyone defers to the elf girl and basically ignores Alistair, to the point of allowing elf to speak to and challenge the most influential man in the kingdom as an equal.

I'll grant you, I am tired of these "only you can save the universe" stories, but come on... at least make it make sense. Either have the character have legitimate reasons to be accepted as hero of the universe or have her treated as a the loon she otherwise sounds like.

Tbh, it seems to be that the story was written for the Cousland origin and they just fudged the other origins into place.  The Cousland origin more or less actually works, if you accept that Alistair really is that much of a wall flower.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 11 mai 2012 - 10:58 .

[wsandista]

Vormaerin wrote...


No, it doesn't seem about right.  Its purely an arbitrary construction on your part that isn't reflective of anything in game.   Secondly, it is indicative of a degree of power growth that is entirely ludicrous.  Wander around for a year fighting and presto, you are a superhuman killing machine!   Doesn't generally work like that.

So the levels I gave you and where the PC is in the story did not match up at all?

Level scaling can have bad gameplay effects if done poorly, but its actually a good way to do stories.  Because, barring some supernatural influence, people don't go from noob to demigod in a few months.   Level scaling lets you feel a sense of progression as a game player (woot! new abilities!) without making a joke of the world.  If you don't have level scaling, you have to explain why Arl Howe's guards (not to mention Arl Howe himself) are such superheroes compared to the men he sent raiding the Cousland estate.   Or you have to explain why the PC is the only person in the universe to get XP.

Level-scaling is never done well, because it is a horrible idea. Having trouble with a random Ogre after killing a mighty High Dragon is not a good way to tell a story. Arl Howe is an accomplished war hero, and I would assume that after taking control of several estates that he could afford more competent mercenaries than before.

I'm not sure where you get the idea the Warden struggles more.  The warden has pretty much zero setbacks and steamrolls through to victory.

Yes because having almost all of the local chapter of your order killed off, being deemed an enemy of the state, all while dealing with the worlds problems so you can raise an army to combat a horde of monsters set on destroying the world, then learning that to stop said murderous horde you must either sacrifice yourself, sacrifice a trusted ally(or former antagonist), or knock up a witch with an Old-God Baby, are not setbacks at all.

All the problems in the story stem from the incompetence of others.   He never loses, never sacrifices anything, never loses a character he remotely cares about except in the origin.  No one ever says  "Who the &**# is this idiot elf girl and why are we listening to her?"

Funny, you just described Hawke(except for losing someone, which the Warden can do too, remember Alistair and Morrigan). Hawke never loses by his own faults, if something goes wrong, it is because of outside forces. Hawke never sacrificed anything, if something of Hawke's is lost it is always because some outside force takes it from him. If you can tell me when Hawke has ever willingly sacrificed anything, I would like to know since I seem to have missed it.

On normal difficulty, DA2 is distinctly easier than DAO.  Which was well advertised.  But played on the higher difficulties, Hawke is not just facerolling the content and the whole point of the level scaling is to show that his abilities are exceptional, but not superhuman. 

I don't know if we played the same DA2, but I could breeze right through nightmare with little problems. DAO nightmare was significantly more difficult. Hawke kills the High Dragon in DA2 with much less effort than the Warden did in DAO, at least when I played DA2(I am comparing both on nightmare btw)

[Vormaerin]

wsandista wrote...


So the levels I gave you and where the PC is in the story did not match up at all?

Level-scaling is never done well, because it is a horrible idea.

Yes because having almost all of the local chapter of your order killed off, being deemed an enemy of the state, all while dealing with the worlds problems so you can raise an army to combat a horde of monsters set on destroying the world, then learning that to stop said murderous horde you must either sacrifice yourself, sacrifice a trusted ally(or former antagonist), or knock up a witch with an Old-God Baby, are not setbacks at all.

Funny, you just described Hawke(except for losing someone, which the Warden can do too, remember Alistair and Morrigan).

No, the levels don't match up.  Because the narrative doesn't support it.  You aren't significantly more powerful than the rest of the world at the end.  Street gangs and mercenaries in the Landsmeet era aren't vastly more powerful than darkspawn at the beginning in a narrative sense, just for game mechanics purposes.

The problem with the dragon and the ogre is more in fighting the dragon as a random boss, not with level scaling.  If you want to show the protagonist is growing in power, then you either need to use a non level scaled, more linear story line or place the dragon where it can't be killed "early.".  If you let him kill the High Dragon at some random point, either you devalue the high dragon or you screw up your story.  

If you intend to have the story run over a fairly short period, like DAO, and therefore don't want massive player vs world power escalation, you need to be more careful about your storytelling.  Set up reasons why the character is able to defeat a high dragon while not being a god amongst men.

Losing a bunch of people you never met and don't have any connection to except "join or die" is not a big sacrifice.  Having enemies is sort of expected.   Morrigan and Alistair can quit on you if you don't cave to their selfish demands, but that's not the same thing Hawke's family members being killed.   I suppose you could argue its not a "sacrifice" because he doesn't have a Virmire moment (except maybe at the Anders decision point).

Other than the origin, everything the warden does has a scot free happy ending choice if you want to take it.   Especially egregious is the Connor story, but its true everywhere.

Edit:  Not going to get into a discussion of difficulty, because that's too playstyle dependant. 

Modifié par Vormaerin, 11 mai 2012 - 11:34 .

[wsandista]

Vormaerin wrote...


No, the levels don't match up.  Because the narrative doesn't support it.  You aren't significantly more powerful than the rest of the world at the end.  Street gangs and mercenaries in the Landsmeet era aren't vastly more powerful than darkspawn at the beginning in a narrative sense, just for game mechanics purposes.

You should be more powerful though, You have completed several seemingly impossible tasks and defeated a myriad of foes feared by almost everyone. Killing a band of theives should seem like child's play to such a hero.

The problem with the dragon and the ogre is more in fighting the dragon as a random boss, not with level scaling.  If you want to show the protagonist is growing in power, then you either need to use a non level scaled, more linear story line.  If you let him kill the High Dragon at some random point, either you devalue the high dragon or you screw up your story.

That is what I believe I have been advocating for. I want to see my PC grow in power as the story progresses, NWN and NWN2 did this very well I think. Enemies should change as the story progresses, it just feels out of place for a PC who is at the heroic stage in the story(level10-19, or Act 2 generally) to waste their time killing small time raiders and petty thugs, especially with much larger problems on their plate.

If you intend to have the story run over a fairly short period, like DAO, and therefore don't want massive player vs world power escalation, you need to be more careful about your storytelling.  Set up reasons why the character is able to defeat a high dragon while not being a god amongst men.

I agree with this, I believe that DAO should have been over the course of at least 3 years, given geography and other factors.

Losing a bunch of people you never met and don't have any connection to except "join or die" is not a big sacrifice.  Having enemies is sort of expected.   Morrigan and Alistair can quit on you if you don't cave to their selfish demands, but that's not the same thing Hawke's family members being killed.   I suppose you could argue its not a "sacrifice" because he doesn't have a Virmire moment (except maybe at the Anders decision point).

You can kill Wynne and Leliana if you defile a certain relic, even if you are good friends with them(or in love with Leliana).

Other than the origin, everything the warden does has a scot free happy ending choice if you want to take it.   Especially egregious is the Connor story, but its true everywhere.

The same can be said with Hawke. While Hawke can choose to land himself(or herself) in a tragic situation, it can all be avoided.

[Vormaerin]

wsandista wrote...

You should be more powerful though, You have completed several seemingly impossible tasks and defeated a myriad of foes feared by almost everyone. Killing a band of theives should seem like child's play to such a

hero.That is what I believe I have been advocating for.

I suppose it depends on the nature of the narrative you are telling.   In Lord of the Rings, its obvious that the hobbits "gain levels".   But there's no reason to believe that Aragorn, Legolas,  or Gimli are "more powerful."

You don't innately get stronger for defeating bad guys. Humans aren't vampiric like that.   Its a game convention, because most games, at least in the RPG field, feature some manner of character advancement.   However, again, that is just a game mechanic.  It doesn't need to dictate the narrative.

Geralt of Rivia in the Witcher and Shepard in the Mass Effect games gains levels over the course of play.  But that's a game mechanics fiction.  They are both completely badass the whole time.   The designer just has to decide what kind of story he is telling and make sure the story supports it.

wsandista wrote...
The same can be said with Hawke. While Hawke can choose to land himself(or herself) in a tragic situation, it can all be avoided.

This is the no spoilers forum, so I'll stop this line of conversation.  But there are tragedies in Hawke's career that can't be avoided and situations that don't have any happy ending.

Killing Wynne or Leilana pretty much requires the player to consciously seek to do that, because the situation that leads to it is blindingly obvious.

[wsandista]

Vormaerin wrote...

I suppose it depends on the nature of the narrative you are telling.   In Lord of the Rings, its obvious that the hobbits "gain levels".   But there's no reason to believe that Aragorn, Legolas,  or Gimli are "more powerful."

You don't innately get stronger for defeating bad guys. Humans aren't vampiric like that.   Its a game convention, because most games, at least in the RPG field, feature some manner of character advancement.   However, again, that is just a game mechanic.  It doesn't need to dictate the narrative.

Geralt of Rivia in the Witcher and Shepard in the Mass Effect games gains levels over the course of play.  But that's a game mechanics fiction.  They are both completely badass the whole time.   The designer just has to decide what kind of story he is telling and make sure the story supports it.

I believe I added the disclaimer "with player-generated characters" somewhere in this conversation.

Anyway with the pre-generated characters like Geralt or Shepard, there is generally a pre-established background. With a player-generated character, the player establishes the background of the character. Like you said it all depends on the narrative. It is fairly obvious the Warden and Hawke gain power and skill during their stories, while there is nothing to suggest that Geralt or Shepard grow more powerful.

Modifié par wsandista, 12 mai 2012 - 12:46 .

[Maria Caliban]

wsandista wrote...

You can't make a backstory for your character if at any time they may contradict it without any input form the player.

Yes, I can.

That might not be something you can do, but I can do that quite easily. I can also craft a personality that the game might sometimes contradict, and for every cRPG I've played, I've come up with ideas and dialogue options that would be more appropriate for my character but wasn't offered by the game.

[wsandista]

Maria Caliban wrote...

wsandista wrote...

You can't make a backstory for your character if at any time they may contradict it without any input form the player.

Yes, I can.

That might not be something you can do, but I can do that quite easily. I can also craft a personality that the game might sometimes contradict, and for every cRPG I've played, I've come up with ideas and dialogue options that would be more appropriate for my character but wasn't offered by the game.

That is great for you, I'm happy that when the character you envisioned is broken unnecessarily you can just hand-wave it away. But shouldn't the players who don't want that to happen not have it happen, especially when it is easily avoidable? If not, why?

[Realmzmaster]

The player establishes the background of a player-generated character if the game character is a complete tabula rasa. Neither DAO or DA2 allow that. The origins and backstories are set in both games. If you play the human noble you are a Cousland. If you play dwarf noble you are an Aeducan. That is what the narrative states. Within that context you can create your character. The same with BG1 and BG2, you are the Bhaalspawn and your backstory is set. The backstory for the character in Bioware games is set.
Other cRPGs allowed for a complete tabula rasa. The player controlled everything all the way to writing the background of the PC.